Homeland Security To Scan Citizens Exiting US 676
An anonymous reader writes "The US Department of Homeland Security is set to kickstart a controversial new pilot to scan the fingerprints of travellers departing the United States. From June, US Customs and Border Patrol will take a fingerprint scan of travellers exiting the United States from Detroit, while the US Transport Security Administration will take fingerprint scans of international travellers exiting the United States from Atlanta. The controversial plan to scan outgoing passengers — including US citizens — was allegedly hatched under the Bush Administration. An official has said it will be used in part to crack down on the US population of illegal immigrants."
They arlready do this to non US residents (Score:5, Informative)
As someone who occasionally visits your country (with a New Zealand passport and valid work visa), I can tell you that all non-US citizens are already subject to this indignity, for no better reasons than you will be. It's unfortunately just the next step (I've never been fingerprinted going into any other country, or any other time at all for that matter).
Re:i totally agree with your sentiment (Score:5, Informative)
In all fairness, he did say one kind of country, for which I think he meant "viciously authoritarian", or something similar.
Re:I can't imagine (Score:2, Informative)
They already fingerprint non-Americans entering your country.
Re:what a difference 10 years make (Score:3, Informative)
"How could y'all have just let this happen ?"
To see how it happened rent the movie "V for Vendeta". It explains it quite nicely.
Re:Idiocy (Score:4, Informative)
No, they're going to throw you into a room, until after your plane leaves. Then you can go buy another ticket and refuse again...
Re:Idiocy (Score:2, Informative)
I'm sure they'll throw you out with the same hospitality that these thugs showed a Guardian journalist [guardian.co.uk]. But hey, they say they're not as bad as Iran!
Re:Idiocy (Score:3, Informative)
Jesus, people, learn to use Google [nytimes.com]:
Re:They already have my fingerprints.... (Score:5, Informative)
They take your fingerprints when you buy a gun.
No, they don't. Unless you live in a police state like Illinois or something, but if you live there, you have no business with a gun. If you want a gun, move to a state that isn't so gun-unfriendly. There's at least 40 of them.
Here in Arizona, you can buy all the guns you want with no fingerprints, just the regular Federal instant-check form.
However, if you want a concealed-carry license, you need fingerprints for that.
Re:Idiocy (Score:2, Informative)
I might be less critical of such actions if it weren't for the fact that "security" isn't being improved or actually even being addressed.
The measure they have taken seem to be aimed more at people who are here in the U.S. legally (like citizens and all) than illegals.
Most of us are justifiably afraid of real terrorism. That's why it's called terrorism.
... what, exactly, are they afraid of?
Most of us are equally justified in being afraid of the people in big government who spend billions of hard-earned taxpayer dollars making life harder for everybody but the real terrorists.
That being the case
Re:Barriers to leaving a country (Score:3, Informative)
GP is mostly correct. Most countries require you to go through immigration both on arrival and departure.
I'm an Australian with an American wife and so travel very frequently between the two countries. Both countries require you to go through immigration and customs on arrival (as you would expect). Australia requires you go through immigration upon departure as well (NOT customs). The US doesn't require that you do anything at all upon leaving, however. Frankly I don't know how they keep track of who is in their country...must be via airline records or something.
Note that the immigration check upon exiting Australia is just so they know who's in and who's out of the country at any given time. Arrivals - departures = possible visa overstayers. For citizens, it's also so they know where you are in case of crisis (e.g. if they know you've gone to country X, and a war breaks out in country X, they will try to contact you and assist you to get back home). It's not a customs check, and they don't fingerprint you or anything. It's just a "my name is X, and I'm leaving".
Hell, Australia doesn't fingerprint you for arrival either. In fact, the only place my fingerprints are on record anywhere on Earth is the AMERICAN DHS. Sorta funny (and scary) that my own government doesn't have my fingerprints, but some random foreign one does...
Re:Idiocy (Score:2, Informative)
No, they didn't accept knowingly forged SSNs. There is only one legal way to check an SSN prior to hire without violating equal opportunity laws - and that is by paying a background check company to run every potential hire (if you only run one race you are in for trouble according to the auditor I spoke with). And even that only works well if the SSN and name are mismatched.
Once the employee is hired and has been with you across the turn of a tax reporting period (quarterly notices are unusual, W-2 usually triggers contact).
The earliest correspondence related to mismatched SSN/Name pair on W-2 is around 6 months.
At this point the employer is contacted and must update the employee's information with the feds including hours worked/wages/etc.. and sign a form saying they have passed along an informational packet to the employee with an explanation that their SSN and their names are mismatched.
That is the last the employer ever hears about it because the employee usually moves along rather quickly.
In the event that the SSN and name match the employee will most likely not be reported as suspect by the feds.
And for those wondering where the self-check line has wandered off to... the results out of that service were abysmal with false positives all over.
Re:Why? (Score:3, Informative)
Besides a few token operations to live up to its name, [DHS] focuses almost entirely on getting rid of illegal immigrants. Has nothing to do with security.
Not any more. Why was the DHS at the tax day tea parties in several cities? Here's [infowars.com] one example. This is an agency used by the party ruling the executive branch to intimidate supporters of the opposing party. It was used that way under Bush and sadly is apparently used that way under Obama.
Detroit and Atlanta (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Honestly, what's the big deal? (Score:1, Informative)
So much for the plane side of the gates at the airport still being an "International Zone".
Re:Ya this is kinda scary (Score:3, Informative)
The USSR had very strict border control and it was more to keep their populace in than to keep foreigners out. Thus I see this as a step down a very bad path.
You might be interested in this video:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1294790/ [imdb.com]
It presents some interesting info on Fascism, and the parallels that have been appearing between the US and Germany(of the past).
Even if you disagree with it (unlikely), it educates on what to watch out for. The rights of the US citizen are slowly slipping away.
Re:Idiocy (Score:2, Informative)
Also, are there many native-born Americans who are willing to pick fruit for $3/hour?
That argument is a complete fallacy. Just considering situations of which I have first-hand knowledge, around here, many illegals make about the same as American workers for the fields in question (golf course maintenance, landscaping). Employers are happy to pay them under the table because they save all the associated payroll taxes: unemployment ins., worker's comp, etc. The workers may see slightly lower wages, but they're also not paying taxes in many cases.
Is this true in all cases? Of course not, but the idea that there is a mass army of workers working for $3/hr. is utter b.s. It's virtually impossible to live in the state of NJ at that wage, no matter how they pool their resources. And estimates say there are between 250,000 and 800,000 illegals in this state. They come here because it's worth it. They're not brought here on slave ships.
Re:They already have my fingerprints.... (Score:1, Informative)
Even in Illinois you don't get fingerprinted for purchasing a firearm. You do require a Firearm Owner's Identification card however [wikipedia.org]. Which costs a whole $10 and can be done by mail [state.il.us]. You just need a state issued ID and a recent photograph.
Does NOT apply to US Citizens (Score:3, Informative)
TFA seems to be wrong about this including US citizens. While I think fingerprinting anyone, citizen or not, coming into the country isn't something we should be doing, and certainly not when exiting, the bit about fingerprinting exiting US citizens is found nowhere other than in the article from IT News Australia. The actual DHS press release is very specific that this is a planned extension to US-VISIT and, as such, only applies to non-US-citizens:
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=AUSASAIR.story&STORY=/www/story/05-28-2009/0005034173&EDATE=THU+May+28+2009,+01:22+PM [prnewswire.com]
Several additional articles all clearly indicating that this applies only to non-citizens:
http://www.fcw.com/Articles/2009/05/27/Web-US-VISIT-pilots.aspx [fcw.com]
http://www.nextgov.com/nextgov/ng_20090528_7835.php?oref=rss [nextgov.com]
Re:Free (Score:3, Informative)
It's funny, my mother is a East-German child. Grew up the first 15yrs of her life there, and happily tells me tales of what life was like. I read the article, and felt my BP shoot up about 40pts sitting here, the thought of Americans and someone saying "Papers"(or fingerprints) is chilling.
I didn't think I'd live to see such a flip either. This type of shit is insane, so who let what bat-shit nuts go wild down in the US anyway? Afraid of government? Hell you're letting it walk all over you.
Re:Idiocy (Score:1, Informative)
0.00001% of the US population were killed when the towers fell.
Fixed that for you.
Re:Idiocy (Score:3, Informative)
No, they didn't accept knowingly forged SSNs. There is only one legal way to check an SSN prior to hire without violating equal opportunity laws - and that is by paying a background check company to run every potential hire (if you only run one race you are in for trouble according to the auditor I spoke with). And even that only works well if the SSN and name are mismatched.
Okay, I've lost my mod points, but I had to respond to this so I could correct this misinformation.
Apparently, too few people have heard of "e-verify" [uscis.gov]. This is how employers are supposed to check whether or not a new hire is legitimately allowed to work in the US. It's free, quick, simple, and secure. It doesn't store or maintain any information about who checked what, it just gives the verification. Some SSNs used by illegal workers are shared around and they often have hundreds of names all under the same SSN.
There was an executive order that was supposed to require Federal contractors to use e-verify for all their new hires, but it's been suspended for now, and it looks like the whole system will go off-line at the end of September, because it has a sunset date and the current administration seems to want it to go away, even as a voluntary program.
As it stands now, it looks like about 300,000 of the jobs that the stimulus bill is supposed to create will actually be filled by illegal immigrants. That seems a little unfair, considering they could have gone to some of the Americans laid off, or the many immigrants that are here following the rules, and are probably also struggling in the bad economy.
Editor's Note (Score:5, Informative)
Did anyone see the Editor's note? Should probably update the Post.
Editors Note - This story originally contained a representation that the biometrics trial in Atlanta and Detroit included the fingerprint scanning of US citizens. This has since been proved to be incorrect and the story has been modified - only non-US citizens will be expected to provide a biometric record.
Re:Does NOT apply to US Citizens (Score:3, Informative)
Indeed, the original article has been updated with an editor's note now to indicate that it does not apply to US citizens. The summary needs to be clarified.
Re:Idiocy (Score:3, Informative)