biscuitfever11 writes "Bletchley Park, the home of Station X, Britain's secret code-breaking base during World War II, is barely scraping by financially, as shown in these images compiled by ZDNet this week. The site has undergone major redevelopment as an act of remembrance for the Allied efforts to break the German Enigma code, but now its future is clouded — among others, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation turned them down for financial assistance (since it doesn't have to do with the Internet). Its director estimates that Bletchley Park's funds will be exhausted in three years. Hungry land developers are circling. This is an insightful look at what's happened to Bletchley Park these days and the pain it's going through."
These aren't starving kids in Africa, for crying out loud. It's just a museum. And, however important the historical significance of the site, it's hardly fair to make a snide remark about not getting funding from a foundation that has MUCH more important issues to deal with. If anything, they should be getting funding from the British government (and obviously THEY don't think it's so important).
I know this is/., and there is many a Bill-basher here who would probably take ANY opportunity to blast him, but COME ON.
ugh, what-ever.
every single inch of soil has some history to it. If you really think saving this place is worth time and effort, please donate some of your money.
by Anonymous Coward
on Friday May 16 2008, @08:16AM (#23432096)
Kids in Africa are starving for reasons the Gates Foundation can't fix.
That written, I view the demise of Bletchley Park the same way I look at copyrights: Doing something great a long time ago shouldn't guarantee you a lifetime of financial benefits. Even if you saved the world.
Great you broke codes but a long time has passed since then. Figure out how to pay your own way.
That written, I view the demise of Bletchley Park the same way I look at copyrights: Doing something great a long time ago shouldn't guarantee you a lifetime of financial benefits
Your comparing efforts to save an important part of our history to copyrights?
Figure out how to pay your own way.
Am I the only one that sees value in preserving important parts of our history for future generations?
But what does preserving the history mean? In a case like this, the history is extremely well documented. Not only that, but the value of the site itself lies solely in the fact that it IS well documented. The building and grounds are not inherently historically valuable.
When you talk about preserving a site like this it's not the same way you would talk about preserving an area of Greek or Roman ruins. It's not like they are going to excavate it at a later date and discover unknown relics.
Without the knowledge of what has happened there, the site is meaningless. And if you have the documentation the site becomes more about the emotional and symbolic attachment than historical value.
And eventually it gets down to the fact that if we faithfully preserved every place that anything interesting had ever happened at it wouldn't be long before our entire society would be static.
And eventually it gets down to the fact that if we faithfully preserved every place that anything interesting had ever happened at it wouldn't be long before our entire society would be static.
I would agree with that, but you have to weigh the "anything interesting" part against the bigger picture. In this case, the "anything interesting" was an Allied effort that saved thousands of lives and probably shortened the war by a year. I tend to think that's worth preserving and that the value to society is greater then allowing a developer to build a strip mall or cookie-cutter condos over it.
Here's the thing, though: The site was not important to their work. They could have done this in a trailer somewhere. I'd bet that they could sell the land and then set up a big enough endowment to save one lot for a small museum to display the equipment and such.
I think people want to save this site because it happens to be a grand old mansion... if this thing were a blah standard-issue 1940s military brick building people would be so sentimental.
The site is a lot more than the mansion (which isn't very grand by British standards). The mansion has quite extensive grounds, which are covered by ugly, squat WWII brick buildings -- I did my apprenticeship in one of them, D-Block (I don't know whether all the aircraft navigational aids that we were trained on are still on the field at the back of the estate). At that time it was on the edge of a sleepy little market town, but the planners had decreed that it become part of the new city of Milton Keynes, filling in a rural gap in Britain's axial belt, a conurbation running from London up through Birmingham and The Potteries up to Manchester and Liverpool. That means it's now an expanse of private parkland in the middle of a city, a few minutes walk from Bletchley Station. I bet it gets stung badly for rates (local taxes), and the land would be worth a fortune. The museum happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I think the smart move would be to move the museum into the mansion and sell off the rest of the land -- maybe keep the lake in front of the mansion and a bit of the green, to justify the name "park". That should raise enough to keep them going for quite a while, and keep some of the historic site.
I would agree with that, but you have to weigh the "anything interesting" part against the bigger picture. In this case, the "anything interesting" was an Allied effort that saved thousands of lives and probably shortened the war by a year. I tend to think that's worth preserving and that the value to society is greater then allowing a developer to build a strip mall or cookie-cutter condos over it.
But you could make the same argument for preserving a factory that built tanks, a shipyard, an airfield, a university laboratory that developed a slightly improved radar. Eventually you have nothing but museums. Some are necessary, but you have to draw the line somewhere. The building didn't shorten the war; the people who worked there did. We honour them by documenting their successes and continuing to build on their work in cryptography, not by turning their workshop into a shrine.
have you ever BEEN there? I have, about 2 years ago. And it's fantastic. You might thinkt hats long as someone took a few photos of it, we can bulldoze it and build luxury flats there. But i disagree. I normally HATE guided tours of places, but the tour of bletchley is fantastic, given by genuine experts, some of whom worked there, and who have a very deep understanding of technically how the cods were broken. the museum there is awesome, and the re-created machines that you can go and look at are truly astounding. This is literally the birthplace of computing. And you would happily let it disappear? Here is some pics I took of some of the rebuilt machines, with the guy who did the rebuilding pictured:
I'll bite because you're obviously (AC) embarrassed by your own opinion.
Many of those pictures you have hanging in your home and/or office exist BECAUSE of copyright. That music and video hogging space on your iPod... you know, the stuff that helps you make it through your workout? It's there precisely because of copyright.
Sure, some aspects of copyright law have gotten out of control. But it is copyright that allows artists to fully pursue their art, and to make the work that you (or others) deem so
I imagine $38 billion is enough for a small invasion. Take control, run it as a colony for say 25 years, then transfer power back to the people when there's a stable system in place. It's not ideal, but at least nobody starves.
What could possibly go wrong [wikipedia.org] with that idea?
Yeah. My initial question here was "Why doesn't the government step in?" What, does England have so much history that it doesn't see the value of protecting a historic site that's from something as new as the last century?
Here in the states, we've got the NSA cryptologic museum [nsa.gov], where among other things you can tool around on an old Enigma from WWII. Can't imagine why Britain wouldn't want something like it.
What, does England have so much history that it doesn't see the value of protecting a historic site that's from something as new as the last century?
We do have an awful lot of history. Near where I grew up is a 13th century castle, and a little further a copy of the Magna Carta from 1215. The town itself was founded in 888. Yes, without a 1 in front. Throw in lots of roman stuff, and things I've never even been told of, and yeah, something from 1945 might not be thought to be really that *wow*.
The British Government decided quite a while ago to get rid of any responsibility it had for looking after any of our historic buildings. Instead they set up the National Lottery to directly tax poor and stupid people with a remit to help good causes such as this one.
Even before that though most of these things are maintained ( or not ) by organisations such as the National Trust or museums and charitable organisations. I can't think of a single thing such as this building which is directly supported by the government, it's just something that in the UK has never been up to the government but is left to private individuals or charitable organisations to deal with. In general the government through it's local councils have no interest at all in maintaining any of our more historic buildings being quite happy instead to let them stand around empty for decades until they have rotted sufficiently to be knocked down and redeveloped. All most all of Birminghams historic Edwardian public baths are currently suffering from this treatment.
There was recently a BBC programme which allowed viewers to vote on which one of a dozen or so worthy historic buildings was given money for maintenance whilst letting the rest continue to fall into disrepair. Britains long range Vulcan bomber is being preserved and renovated by a private group of enthusiasts and BA are refusing to sell Concorde to a similar group of enthusiasts for preservation so in general here in the UK what is preserved and what is not is more or less a random lottery with many things falling by the wayside and being crushed underfoot.
While its funding is not great, English Heritage protects hundreds of historic buildings and other heritage sites. They're a government-funded quango, attached to the DCMS. There are equivalents in Wales and Scotland.
s. Instead they set up the National Lottery to directly tax poor and stupid people with a remit to help good causes such as this one.
I don't get why people think that only stupid people play the lottery. I think of it as a form of extremely high risk investment. Sure, most people are going to lose money, especially over the long run. But if you win, the payouts are huge. It's not a good idea to invest every single dollar you have in trying to win the Lottery, because in the end, you'll still likely be
To be fair though if it really is that important to all those hippies and druids and the like you'd think they'd all cut their hair, get jobs and put some money towards doing something about it's preservation !
What, does England have so much history that it doesn't see the value of protecting a historic site that's from something as new as the last century?
Yep, that's pretty much it. There's only so much funding to go around, and there are thousands and thousands of sites of historical interest competing for it. Bletchley isn't really such a strong competitor; the site itself is of no architectural interest, it's nothing to look at. All it ever was was a bunch of army huts. There are ancient castles and manors falling down which are much more photogenic and attract more tourists.
To me Bletchley is of more intellectual than historic interest: it's where Turing did his work founding the discipline of computer science. As such, I wonder if the best way forward would be for the site to become a technology park, or a research centre attached perhaps to the OU? That would preserve what was important there - the intellectual tradition - even if it meant doing away with most of the WW2-era buildings.
You really do a disservice to everyone when you compare modern-day Britain to Germany under Nazi rule. Public cameras? Gimme a break - let me know when they start tattooing people and invading Poland.
The Bletchley Park Trust receives no external funding. It has been deemed ineligible for funding by the National Lottery, and turned down by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation because the Microsoft founder will only fund internet-based technology projects.
The submitted was merely paraphrasing what was in the article, not necessarily having a "go" at Uncle Bill. I actually appreciated the bit of clarification (I was curious as to why one would think a foundation that seems more concerned with disease and poverty would want to save what amounts to a museum...)
Why would the Gates family feel any obligation to fund a war museum in another country? How is not doing so a lack of 'class'? This makes so little sense that I can only assume it's some variation on the Chewbacca defence...
When I's a kid growing up in Kansas, we used t' rent out the upper room to boarders at a reasonable price. This helpt us git our bills paid and gave us poor farmers some company on those long summer nights. Twasn't like we were usin' the upstairs room.
Except for hubris, I don't see the real benefit in holding on to all that real estate if all they are going to do is slowly bleed to death. If they put the land to work for them, by renting it out as office space, they could probably make enough to keep a smaller museum running.
But what do I know about those English? All I know is that when I go into the bathroom, I'm American. When I come out, I'm American again.
They're already doing that. Some of the estate has been sold off. Parts of the main building (the old mansion) can be hired for conferences etc. if I remember correctly. There's no hubris there, at least none that I could detect when I visited the place a few years ago.
Enigma was broken by a Polish cryptographer named Marian Rejewski [wikipedia.org]. The Poles knew they were going to be overrun by the Germans and disclosed their work to the French and British.
Bletchley Park is where they automated the process of intercepting, decrypting, translating, and analyzing Axis communications. I can't think of any large-scale SIGINT operation that preceded Bletchley, and it was certainly vital to the war effort, but credit where it's due, etc.
Enigma was broken by a Polish cryptographer named Marian Rejewski [wikipedia.org].
IIRC, enigma was initially broken as you say, but that technique relied on the German army's flawed protocol of sending two encrypted copies of the same 3 letters (that formed the session key) at the start of each transmission. They soon realised that this was a security weakness and so Bletchley park had to develop new techniques. The German navy used a much tougher system again.
Ok, so I can (sort of) understand the Gates Foundation not wishing to fund this, but the UK National Lottery turned it down too!
For the benefit of those not in the UK, the National Lottery is where you buy a ticket for £1 and choose six numbers. If the numbers you pick come up - then you win a load of cash.
This Lottery was supposed to raise money for what are deemed "Good Causes". These Good Causes are chosen by some committee who seem to have a strange idea with regard to what constitutes a "good cause". Running an elitist venue such as the Royal Opera House and maybe your clientele is dwindling because your prices are bloody ridiculous? Lottery funding to the rescue! There are plenty of examples of this "Old Boy" network, where obscure or unpopular elitist "causes" are funded, whilst small local projects - or indeed projects of National Historical value, such as Bletchley Park, are turned down.
Only a very small percentage of the takings from the Lottery actually makes its way to the causes - the vast majority goes to the company which runs the Lottery. That is one of my biggest complaints about it - Richard Branson has offered on at least two occasions to run the Lottery and to make it a non-profit organisation, but has been turned down on both occasions, despite having the backing of most of the UK!
I am not familiar with how Bletchley is currently funded - presumably by entrance fees? - but I would expect the UK Government to help out, rather than see this go under.
For the benefit of those not in the UK, the National Lottery is where you buy a ticket for £1 and choose six numbers. If the numbers you pick come up - then you win a load of cash...
Apparently, you don't even have to buy the ticket. I get notified at least once a week that I've won the UK National Lottery. I just haven't gotten around to responding to those emails yet to claim my cash.
For the benefit of those not in the UK, the National Lottery is where you buy a ticket for £1 and choose six numbers. If the numbers you pick come up - then you win a load of cash.
We have two organizations like this in the US:
The first is called Powerball - runs in many (not all states), and does almost the same thing... only costs a buck and a hope. The profits are divided among participating states and put towards public works projects (e.g. roads, schools, parks...)
The other one is called NASDAQ, though Lord only knows where the profits end up.
It is not some unique work of art or architecture. What was invented there (computer science) is what is really important and it is very alive in a lot of places today. The place where it all happened is just a footnote in history (and as some other posters will probably explain, Bletchley Park was only an important step in the coputer science history but is included in a continuity)
The work that the code breakers at Bletchley park did prevented a lot of Ally deaths. When the Germans instituted using the 4-wheel enigma it was impossible to tell what the U-boats were doing out in the Atlantic Ocean. Because of this, supply boats going to the U.K. were being sunk at a high rate, unable to avoid the U-boats, eventually the Brits could have been forced out of the battle (no war supplies == no war). Near the end of 1942 however, some documented daily settings on the new 4-wheel enigma were pulled off of a sunken U-boat in the Mediterranean [codesandciphers.org.uk] allowing german naval deciphers to be broken. Through the man-power, knowledge, and tools available at Bletchley, they could decipher and relay german naval messages (at least in the Atlantic) to high command often within hours of obtaining them. After this, supply ships in the Atlantic were nearly invisible to German U-boats. The monthly settings booklets still had to be retrieved to continue this, but through missions and sometimes luck most of them were captured
That's the WWII side of the story (or at least a very small part of it).
The importance to/. is probably that this war was the first time machines were used to cipher messages, and thus machines had to do the deciphering. To break the regular ground enigma's daily settings scientists at Bletchley designed and manufactured the Colossus(es) [wikipedia.org]. If you ever see this thing run, especially the interior mechanisms, you'll know this was a great unknown leap towards multi-purpose computing machinery. Unfortunately because of U.K. laws, the work and knowledge of those at Bletchley couldn't be released until sometime in the 80's (I think)
Not to mention the centimetric radar fitted to some of the first ASW planes ever put in action, but most definitely - Bletchley park changed the world.
As a UK citizen I'm pretty disgusted that a lot of our landmarks and history, as well as worthwhile projects such as revived steam railway lines and 'sense' centres for severely disabled kids with people putting their own volunteer time in, are somehow getting turn down for National Lottery funding (there never is a solid reason given) and billions are being given to the waste of time and money that is the Olympics, largely because of corruption. Who's going to miss a few million going missing here and there? These are schemes and projects that only want a few tens or hundreds of thousands pounds as well.
This is exactly the sort of thing that the National Lottery was supposed to help, and exactly the sort of thing that has been let down.
Don't worry, the pathetic English hating UK government will spare no effort in wasting £17bn on an 2 week politicians / IOC orgy at the London Olympics games that only the freeloaders want (as opposed to the taxpayers who don't want it).
The things that are important to a nation are discarded, and what gives no benefit gets taxpayers money thrown at it like taxpayers money was going out of fashion.
I was there a few years ago. Some of the exhibits were in WW2 vintage barracks (i.e. temporary buildings never meant to stand for more than 5 years, let alone 50. In one hut, there were puddles on the floor. The whole place is falling apart.
As for the argument 'you can always move the exhibits to the Science Museum and sell the land': The exhibits are important, but the accomodations themselves make a point that's worth remembering as well. The most vital project of the entire war was being run out of a collection of sheds, basically. To think that 9000 people worked there on the most advanced technology in existence back then, boggles the mind.
Now perhaps I'm over-associating the Bletchley work. But I'd have to think, that at the very least, this is a "Good Cause" to support. But I believe a museum designation is long-overdue for Bletchley - or a Heritage building which must be preserved. A statue of some of the fine men and women who worked there might draw people's attention to their efforts. I think its because the people at Bletchley weren't soldiers that they haven't garnered public attention or praise which is why Bletchley remains in the condition its in. Its a sad reality when the artsy fartsies are the first one to always get new museums or funding for museums. And indeed, they're the ones who fight for buildings to be preserved for Historic reasons. Where are they in this case? These would have been the last people to pickup a rifle in WWII.
Members of the public probably don't know or understand (e.g. lack of knowledge of the military) the contributions at Bletchley. I'm not one to usually fight for heritage properties or a museum. But for goodness sake, the worked they did helped destroy countless U-boats (my Canadian grandfather worked on shipping lines crossing the Atlantic risking his neck each time he crossed and so many perished because of the U-Boats), helped gather countless intel on German operations, helped confirm the D-Day operation date and continued to spy on the Germans (just to make sure they weren't up to anything) after WWII. It saved the lives of countless Army, Air and Navy men and women of all nationalities that served in WWII on the European front. And, indirectly, because of this work, it helped put a stop to the Concentration Camps.
Why the hell are they not getting the due respect and attention that they so rightly desire? This is a disgrace. Were I British, I would be fighting for the preservation of this building. I'm not sure that as a Canadian, my words will count for much.
The few times I've been to the UK in recent times I've tried to visit Bletchley Park. Each time, the hours of the museum didn't work. In checking the website, I now see that things have improved considerably, but with an infant at home I likely won't be back to the UK any time soon:(
I've been to Bletchley Park. The problem is that they have only a few things worth exhibiting, like the rebuilt bombe, the rebuilt Colossus, and some real crypto machines from WWII. One big gallery in a major museum could house the collection. But the place is a sizable estate. The famous "huts" aren't much to look at, and some of them are only concrete pads today. The manor house is in decent shape but an architectural mishmash not really worthy of preservation.
They also have a model railroad, a model boat club, an auto collection, a lake with swans, a collection of Churchill-was-here memorabilia, and, inevitably, a gift shop, like too many other English estates open to visitors.
we wantonly ignore our history because we actually have lots and lots of it, mate.
when you are tripping over history with every other step you take then you'll get pretty relaxed about it as well.
having said that, it make me weep when a properly constructed 150+ year old house get ripped down for a cramped development of flats made from bricks, spit and twigs. it is precisely because of the sheer amount of historical relevance and interest that naturally some things get sacrificed, and once its gone then its gone for ever.
face it, as a attraction Bletchley has to compete with central london only 25 miles away - and when you put it like that it will always lose.
"Everything has a price tag. Everything costs something, and everyone should get something hard for everything he does."
This only makes sense if you ignore why we use money. Money is simply an exchange of productivity. I work, get money, and then use that money to buy others' productivity. Saying "everything has a price tag" simply means that people are only willing to offer up their productivity if they get someone else's in return. That's the sign of a properly functioning market. If you want to donate
Milton Keynes Council declared the site a conservation area in February 1992 and the landowners â" the government's land agency and BT â" withdrew all planning applications. Seven years later, former Bletchley Park Trust director Christine Large landed a deal with certain developers to secure the future of Bletchley Park in the hands of the Trust.
But some developers remain far from dissuaded, recently winning the right to build houses even closer to the wartime facilities. One of the site's exhibition facilities now rests just 10 yards from 21st-century residential properties.
With giant concrete mixers towering over the edge of the Trust's land, Greenish said he feels the remaining green space between Bletchley Park and surrounding surburbia may be lost, though he plans to fight the advance tooth and nail.
Why would they expect Gates Foundation funding? (Score:5, Insightful)
I know this is /., and there is many a Bill-basher here who would probably take ANY opportunity to blast him, but COME ON.
Re:Why would they expect Gates Foundation funding? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Why would they expect Gates Foundation funding? (Score:5, Insightful)
every single inch of soil has some history to it.
If you really think saving this place is worth time and effort, please donate some of your money.
My guess is not many people feel like you do.
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Re:Why would they expect Gates Foundation funding? (Score:5, Insightful)
That written, I view the demise of Bletchley Park the same way I look at copyrights: Doing something great a long time ago shouldn't guarantee you a lifetime of financial benefits. Even if you saved the world.
Great you broke codes but a long time has passed since then. Figure out how to pay your own way.
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Re:Why would they expect Gates Foundation funding? (Score:5, Insightful)
Your comparing efforts to save an important part of our history to copyrights?
Am I the only one that sees value in preserving important parts of our history for future generations?
Parent
Re:Why would they expect Gates Foundation funding? (Score:5, Insightful)
When you talk about preserving a site like this it's not the same way you would talk about preserving an area of Greek or Roman ruins. It's not like they are going to excavate it at a later date and discover unknown relics.
Without the knowledge of what has happened there, the site is meaningless. And if you have the documentation the site becomes more about the emotional and symbolic attachment than historical value.
And eventually it gets down to the fact that if we faithfully preserved every place that anything interesting had ever happened at it wouldn't be long before our entire society would be static.
Parent
Re:Why would they expect Gates Foundation funding? (Score:5, Insightful)
I would agree with that, but you have to weigh the "anything interesting" part against the bigger picture. In this case, the "anything interesting" was an Allied effort that saved thousands of lives and probably shortened the war by a year. I tend to think that's worth preserving and that the value to society is greater then allowing a developer to build a strip mall or cookie-cutter condos over it.
Parent
Re:Why would they expect Gates Foundation funding? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think people want to save this site because it happens to be a grand old mansion... if this thing were a blah standard-issue 1940s military brick building people would be so sentimental.
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Re:Why would they expect Gates Foundation funding? (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Why would they expect Gates Foundation funding? (Score:5, Insightful)
But you could make the same argument for preserving a factory that built tanks, a shipyard, an airfield, a university laboratory that developed a slightly improved radar. Eventually you have nothing but museums. Some are necessary, but you have to draw the line somewhere. The building didn't shorten the war; the people who worked there did. We honour them by documenting their successes and continuing to build on their work in cryptography, not by turning their workshop into a shrine.
Parent
Re:Why would they expect Gates Foundation funding? (Score:5, Interesting)
I have, about 2 years ago. And it's fantastic. You might thinkt hats long as someone took a few photos of it, we can bulldoze it and build luxury flats there. But i disagree.
I normally HATE guided tours of places, but the tour of bletchley is fantastic, given by genuine experts, some of whom worked there, and who have a very deep understanding of technically how the cods were broken. the museum there is awesome, and the re-created machines that you can go and look at are truly astounding. This is literally the birthplace of computing. And you would happily let it disappear?
Here is some pics I took of some of the rebuilt machines, with the guy who did the rebuilding pictured:
http://www.positech.co.uk/blog/enigma1.jpg [positech.co.uk]
http://www.positech.co.uk/blog/enigma2.jpg [positech.co.uk]
http://www.positech.co.uk/blog/enigma3.jpg [positech.co.uk]
BP is well worth saving. Much more so than just ANOTHER stately home, of which we preserve hundreds.
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I'll bite because you're obviously (AC) embarrassed by your own opinion.
Many of those pictures you have hanging in your home and/or office exist BECAUSE of copyright. That music and video hogging space on your iPod... you know, the stuff that helps you make it through your workout? It's there precisely because of copyright.
Sure, some aspects of copyright law have gotten out of control. But it is copyright that allows artists to fully pursue their art, and to make the work that you (or others) deem so
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What could possibly go wrong [wikipedia.org] with that idea?
Re:Why would they expect Gates Foundation funding? (Score:5, Interesting)
Here in the states, we've got the NSA cryptologic museum [nsa.gov], where among other things you can tool around on an old Enigma from WWII. Can't imagine why Britain wouldn't want something like it.
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Re:Why would they expect Gates Foundation funding? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Why would they expect Gates Foundation funding? (Score:5, Insightful)
Even before that though most of these things are maintained ( or not ) by organisations such as the National Trust or museums and charitable organisations. I can't think of a single thing such as this building which is directly supported by the government, it's just something that in the UK has never been up to the government but is left to private individuals or charitable organisations to deal with. In general the government through it's local councils have no interest at all in maintaining any of our more historic buildings being quite happy instead to let them stand around empty for decades until they have rotted sufficiently to be knocked down and redeveloped. All most all of Birminghams historic Edwardian public baths are currently suffering from this treatment.
There was recently a BBC programme which allowed viewers to vote on which one of a dozen or so worthy historic buildings was given money for maintenance whilst letting the rest continue to fall into disrepair. Britains long range Vulcan bomber is being preserved and renovated by a private group of enthusiasts and BA are refusing to sell Concorde to a similar group of enthusiasts for preservation so in general here in the UK what is preserved and what is not is more or less a random lottery with many things falling by the wayside and being crushed underfoot.
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Re:Why would they expect Gates Foundation funding? (Score:5, Informative)
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I don't get why people think that only stupid people play the lottery. I think of it as a form of extremely high risk investment. Sure, most people are going to lose money, especially over the long run. But if you win, the payouts are huge. It's not a good idea to invest every single dollar you have in trying to win the Lottery, because in the end, you'll still likely be
Re:Why would they expect Gates Foundation funding? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Why would they expect Gates Foundation funding? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Why would they expect Gates Foundation funding? (Score:5, Interesting)
Yep, that's pretty much it. There's only so much funding to go around, and there are thousands and thousands of sites of historical interest competing for it. Bletchley isn't really such a strong competitor; the site itself is of no architectural interest, it's nothing to look at. All it ever was was a bunch of army huts. There are ancient castles and manors falling down which are much more photogenic and attract more tourists.
To me Bletchley is of more intellectual than historic interest: it's where Turing did his work founding the discipline of computer science. As such, I wonder if the best way forward would be for the site to become a technology park, or a research centre attached perhaps to the OU? That would preserve what was important there - the intellectual tradition - even if it meant doing away with most of the WW2-era buildings.
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The Bletchley Park Trust receives no external funding. It has been deemed ineligible for funding by the National Lottery, and turned down by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation because the Microsoft founder will only fund internet-based technology projects.
The submitted was merely paraphrasing what was in the article, not necessarily having a "go" at Uncle Bill. I actually appreciated the bit of clarification (I was curious as to why one would think a foundation that seems more concerned with disease and poverty would want to save what amounts to a museum...)
Re:Why would they expect Gates Foundation funding? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Upstairs boarder (Score:4, Interesting)
Except for hubris, I don't see the real benefit in holding on to all that real estate if all they are going to do is slowly bleed to death. If they put the land to work for them, by renting it out as office space, they could probably make enough to keep a smaller museum running.
But what do I know about those English? All I know is that when I go into the bathroom, I'm American. When I come out, I'm American again.
Re:Upstairs boarder (Score:5, Funny)
You should see a doctor about that.
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Re:Upstairs boarder (Score:5, Funny)
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
There's no hubris there, at least none that I could detect when I visited the place a few years ago.
Barely scraping by? (Score:5, Funny)
The British did not break Enigma (Score:5, Informative)
Bletchley Park is where they automated the process of intercepting, decrypting, translating, and analyzing Axis communications. I can't think of any large-scale SIGINT operation that preceded Bletchley, and it was certainly vital to the war effort, but credit where it's due, etc.
Re:The British did not break Enigma (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.nsa.gov/publications/publi00016.cfm [nsa.gov]
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Re:The British did not break Enigma (Score:5, Informative)
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Lottery funding (Score:3, Interesting)
For the benefit of those not in the UK, the National Lottery is where you buy a ticket for £1 and choose six numbers. If the numbers you pick come up - then you win a load of cash.
This Lottery was supposed to raise money for what are deemed "Good Causes". These Good Causes are chosen by some committee who seem to have a strange idea with regard to what constitutes a "good cause". Running an elitist venue such as the Royal Opera House and maybe your clientele is dwindling because your prices are bloody ridiculous? Lottery funding to the rescue! There are plenty of examples of this "Old Boy" network, where obscure or unpopular elitist "causes" are funded, whilst small local projects - or indeed projects of National Historical value, such as Bletchley Park, are turned down.
Only a very small percentage of the takings from the Lottery actually makes its way to the causes - the vast majority goes to the company which runs the Lottery. That is one of my biggest complaints about it - Richard Branson has offered on at least two occasions to run the Lottery and to make it a non-profit organisation, but has been turned down on both occasions, despite having the backing of most of the UK!
I am not familiar with how Bletchley is currently funded - presumably by entrance fees? - but I would expect the UK Government to help out, rather than see this go under.
Re:Lottery funding (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:Lottery funding (Score:5, Funny)
We have two organizations like this in the US:
The first is called Powerball - runs in many (not all states), and does almost the same thing... only costs a buck and a hope. The profits are divided among participating states and put towards public works projects (e.g. roads, schools, parks...)
The other one is called NASDAQ, though Lord only knows where the profits end up.
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If you read TFA (Score:5, Informative)
Who cares ? (Score:3, Interesting)
This is truly sad (Score:5, Informative)
The work that the code breakers at Bletchley park did prevented a lot of Ally deaths. When the Germans instituted using the 4-wheel enigma it was impossible to tell what the U-boats were doing out in the Atlantic Ocean. Because of this, supply boats going to the U.K. were being sunk at a high rate, unable to avoid the U-boats, eventually the Brits could have been forced out of the battle (no war supplies == no war). Near the end of 1942 however, some documented daily settings on the new 4-wheel enigma were pulled off of a sunken U-boat in the Mediterranean [codesandciphers.org.uk] allowing german naval deciphers to be broken. Through the man-power, knowledge, and tools available at Bletchley, they could decipher and relay german naval messages (at least in the Atlantic) to high command often within hours of obtaining them. After this, supply ships in the Atlantic were nearly invisible to German U-boats. The monthly settings booklets still had to be retrieved to continue this, but through missions and sometimes luck most of them were captured
That's the WWII side of the story (or at least a very small part of it).
The importance to /. is probably that this war was the first time machines were used to cipher messages, and thus machines had to do the deciphering. To break the regular ground enigma's daily settings scientists at Bletchley designed and manufactured the Colossus(es) [wikipedia.org]. If you ever see this thing run, especially the interior mechanisms, you'll know this was a great unknown leap towards multi-purpose computing machinery. Unfortunately because of U.K. laws, the work and knowledge of those at Bletchley couldn't be released until sometime in the 80's (I think)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Disgusted (Score:5, Insightful)
This is exactly the sort of thing that the National Lottery was supposed to help, and exactly the sort of thing that has been let down.
Never mind (Score:3, Insightful)
The things that are important to a nation are discarded, and what gives no benefit gets taxpayers money thrown at it like taxpayers money was going out of fashion.
No exaggeration (Score:5, Insightful)
As for the argument 'you can always move the exhibits to the Science Museum and sell the land': The exhibits are important, but the accomodations themselves make a point that's worth remembering as well. The most vital project of the entire war was being run out of a collection of sheds, basically. To think that 9000 people worked there on the most advanced technology in existence back then, boggles the mind.
Turn it into a Historic bldg or Museum (Score:5, Informative)
Members of the public probably don't know or understand (e.g. lack of knowledge of the military) the contributions at Bletchley. I'm not one to usually fight for heritage properties or a museum. But for goodness sake, the worked they did helped destroy countless U-boats (my Canadian grandfather worked on shipping lines crossing the Atlantic risking his neck each time he crossed and so many perished because of the U-Boats), helped gather countless intel on German operations, helped confirm the D-Day operation date and continued to spy on the Germans (just to make sure they weren't up to anything) after WWII. It saved the lives of countless Army, Air and Navy men and women of all nationalities that served in WWII on the European front. And, indirectly, because of this work, it helped put a stop to the Concentration Camps.
Why the hell are they not getting the due respect and attention that they so rightly desire? This is a disgrace. Were I British, I would be fighting for the preservation of this building. I'm not sure that as a Canadian, my words will count for much.
Hard to Visit (Score:3, Insightful)
Too much land for what it holds (Score:3, Informative)
I've been to Bletchley Park. The problem is that they have only a few things worth exhibiting, like the rebuilt bombe, the rebuilt Colossus, and some real crypto machines from WWII. One big gallery in a major museum could house the collection. But the place is a sizable estate. The famous "huts" aren't much to look at, and some of them are only concrete pads today. The manor house is in decent shape but an architectural mishmash not really worthy of preservation.
They also have a model railroad, a model boat club, an auto collection, a lake with swans, a collection of Churchill-was-here memorabilia, and, inevitably, a gift shop, like too many other English estates open to visitors.
Re:The real problem (Score:5, Interesting)
when you are tripping over history with every other step you take then you'll get pretty relaxed about it as well.
having said that, it make me weep when a properly constructed 150+ year old house get ripped down for a cramped development of flats made from bricks, spit and twigs. it is precisely because of the sheer amount of historical relevance and interest that naturally some things get sacrificed, and once its gone then its gone for ever.
face it, as a attraction Bletchley has to compete with central london only 25 miles away - and when you put it like that it will always lose.
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Misunderstanding (Score:3, Insightful)
This only makes sense if you ignore why we use money. Money is simply an exchange of productivity. I work, get money, and then use that money to buy others' productivity. Saying "everything has a price tag" simply means that people are only willing to offer up their productivity if they get someone else's in return. That's the sign of a properly functioning market. If you want to donate
Re:"Hungry land developers are circling." (Score:4, Informative)
Milton Keynes Council declared the site a conservation area in February 1992 and the landowners â" the government's land agency and BT â" withdrew all planning applications. Seven years later, former Bletchley Park Trust director Christine Large landed a deal with certain developers to secure the future of Bletchley Park in the hands of the Trust.
But some developers remain far from dissuaded, recently winning the right to build houses even closer to the wartime facilities. One of the site's exhibition facilities now rests just 10 yards from 21st-century residential properties.
With giant concrete mixers towering over the edge of the Trust's land, Greenish said he feels the remaining green space between Bletchley Park and surrounding surburbia may be lost, though he plans to fight the advance tooth and nail.
Jonah HEX
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)