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Comments: 107 +- IT: FBI Looks Into Chinese Role in Darfur Site Hack on Tuesday March 25 2008, @07:40AM
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Amy Bennett writes "This past weekend we discussed an increasing level of attacks online, targeting Tibetan-based NGOs. Now the BBC is reporting that the Save Darfur Coalition has called in the FBI on what appears to be a similar matter. Allyn Brooks-LaSure, a spokesman with the group, doesn't know who is behind the attacks, but he said the IP addresses of the computers that had hacked his organization were from China. Save Darfur has been trying to get China, one of Sudan's largest trading partners, to pressure Sudan's government into stopping the mass killings in Darfur's ongoing civil war. 'Someone in Beijing is trying to send us a message,' Brooks-LaSure said. Probably the same message they're sending by continuing to shut down video sites covering the Tibetan unrest."
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No chinese term for "bad PR"? (Score:5, Insightful)
And what do they do? They proceed to show the world that they are still a backwards oppressive country with no common sense, jeopardizing much of the progress that they've made over a bunch of piss-ass monks and to avoid some bad press that 99.9% of the world would have ignored if they hadn't tried so hard to supress it.
Is there no Chinese term for "Bad PR" or are they just that stupid?
Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of the Dali Lama (like Penn Gillette, I think his intentions are a lot less pure [google.com] than he lets on). But jeez China, USE YOUR HEAD. At least wait until AFTER the Olympics to start busting heads.
Does China's leadership even care (Score:5, Insightful)
Why? Because even with all the previous threats and actual atrocities they committed they were granted the Olympics. Every time they threaten Taiwan and the US responds in the political arena its the US who is chastised for being the war mongers.
The real question is, what is the fate of places like Tibet and Taiwan during and AFTER the Olympics?
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Re:Does China's leadership even care (Score:5, Insightful)
Correct. Don't forget the universal leftist/socialist/progressive meme: "America bad!" And if happens that some non-American country has done something undeniably bad then the universal leftist/socialist/progressive response is: "But America is even worse."
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Not to do a flamebait... (Score:3, Insightful)
To the mods (Score:3, Insightful)
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Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (Score:5, Insightful)
On the verge? What would happen to our economy if we had a falling out? Damned near everything you can buy these days is made there!
Plus, they have for decades had nuclear weapons.
They not only already are a superpower, they are more powerful than the US. I don't see how we could possibly hurt them, but they could destroy us.
Thank you, patriotic multinational corporations, for buying my government and ruining my once great nation.
-mcgrew
(yes, I'm in a bad mood)
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Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (Score:5, Insightful)
I would be surprised if the government of China would throw away the last fifty years of economic progress in their country over something like Tibet or Taiwan. There is a large section of their population who only accept the repressive authoritarianism of their government because of the massive increase in the standard of living. Take that away, and the current leaders will be out on their asses.
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What goes around ... (Score:2)
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Well yes, it is in their interest to make sure the markets are good. But what if they decide it isn't in their interest? Then what?
That's when one hundred million urban Chinese men, only a generation removed from the rice paddy, who got used to their cell phones, DVD players and relatively high standard of living, decide that returning to the country farm, when the factory they used to work at closes, isn't what they would like to do. Without those factories that manufacture goods for export, there will be an awful lot of pissed off young men who have an issue with the current Chinese government.
Not to mention that many of those facto
Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (Score:4, Interesting)
If Taiwan did declare independence (officially) there would be military action from China even if it means war with the US.
Parent
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This is a good point.
I always used to joke around and say that if the U
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There is a little story that goes somewhat like this:
Once upon a time, there was a Chinese emperor who had a powerful neighbor. That neighbor sent a messenger to the emperor, demanding gold and all sorts of valuables in tribute. The emperor sent the messenger away with the requested tribute.
A few years later, the neighbor again sent a messenger. This
Oh, we could hurt them... (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, I still think we could hurt them far more than they can hurt us, for the following reasons:
I will agree with you on one thing though: our multinationals are selling us out. They are building factories there so that they can sell in that market and avoid duties, but that really sucks for us because it pumps up the economy of a repressive regime. Still, though, at least that reason is better than the more common reason, which is that they want cheap labor to make goods they will ultimately sell not in China, but in the US. That's almost treason to humanity, because there are many countries in the world that aren't so repressive and that have people who would be desperate for those jobs and would work just as cheap. But no, we give their jobs to the repressive nation.
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Their reserves would be hurt by a dollar crash ofcourse, but they'd have the 'bonus' of massively increasing prices on imported goods for the USA. Including oil, because if the dollar would crash, OPEC would most likely start pricing the
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I agree, but in the end the multinationals will suffer as well. What good is the official multinational product selling at X when there's another factory a couple miles up the road making a practically identical product that can be sold for 1/10 X? The multinationals are heavily dependent on IP laws to protect their bottom line, but the local Chinese businessman (or so I've
Re:Oh, we could hurt them... (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes, they make everything, but who buys their stuff? If no one buys their stuff, what happens to them? They lose trillions of dollars. If they stop making their stuff, what happens to us? In the short term, prices on eBay go up for goods Americans have that are out of stock, but in the long run, we build our own factories to fill the market needs, and that is actually good for Americans. And if the factories don't get built here, they go to India and Latin American countries, which are far more stable anyway.
By outsourcing to India and Latin American countries, America is actually cutting her own throat - she is personally building the economies that will allow the Chinese to stop propping up her failing economy. India followed only China in growth in recent years and is now considered in the top dozen economies of the world, while accounting for about 17% of the world's population (about four times more consumers than the US). Brazil has more than half the population of the US and a stronger economy than India. Don't forget about Russia, the third strongest growing economy who is aggressively pushing population growth and relations with China. China's dependence on the US consumer is a very time-limited reality.
I'm completely confused about your comment about India and Latin America being far more stable than China. The US has directly used economic and military pressure to keep Latin America unstable for better than half a century. There's almost always multiple civil wars in progress (or fights between terrorists and puppet dictators, if you like).
You say they have nuclear weapons. Well, we have more, and as China is a smaller nation in terms of land area, we have the advantage of having less square footage to wipe out. You say you can't see how we could hurt them, when we could actually wipe out their country many times over. And we have a least a partial missile shield, which of course wouldn't stop them, but is at least slightly better than the nothing they have. So there isn't going to be a nuclear engagement.
I can't speak for the parent poster, but I read his comment about nuclear weapons simply as a statement supporting his assessment of China's current superpower status. It is ludicrous to suggest, as you do, that a difference in land mass gives us some advantage in a nuclear war. To quote Joshua, the only winning move is not to play.
If we had a conventional weapons war, our conventional weapons are better. True, they have more people, but as more of our weaponry becomes automated that becomes less of an advantage for them, so long as we can mass produce our robots.
The recent wars undertaken by the US are but minor skirmishes compared to a military confrontation with China, yet the US military industry is supported primarily by loans from China. If the US economy were forced to bear the cost of Afghanistan and Iraq, the current economic woes would seem like the good old days. Now imagine the costs of a real war, then factor in that America would be fighting against the nation financing its current military operations. I see a relatively small window in which you can continue to mass produce your magic robots.
We also have higher technology than they do. We alone posess most of the technology for making the fastest computer chips, and that gives us an extraordinary advantage. They recently attempted to make their own home grown "Dragon" PC chip in an effort to not be dependent on us, and it turned out to be the equivalent of a very slow 486.
Your "stable" comment in your first point confused me. Now you've totally lost me. You think that all computer technology knowledge is locked away in a vault somewhere in the US? Perhaps you keep it in Fort Knox? I guess you aren't aware that Intel has production facilities in China, Costa Rica, Malaysia, Israel, Ireland, India, Philippines, and Russia? I don't suppose you realized that AMD's primary research and manufacturing
Parent
IP Adress != Proof of government involvement (Score:5, Interesting)
You have to realize that many Chinese youth today feel China is wronged by the West by a double standard, I won't go into the details as you can read them yourself (ex. the fb group "Tibet WAS,IS,and ALWAYS WILL BE a part of China"). But the point is, the attack is more likely to be caused by a Chinese citizen than the government itself.
In another story I read this comment by Digestromath (1190577) and it pretty much nails it.
Like the parent said, the Chinese government would be stupid to attack these sites right before the Olympics. I read a book called "China Shakes the World" By James Kynge and in one chapter in mentioned how the Chinese government has "nurtured nationalism in the youth into so potent a force that they are about to loose control of it."(remembering from the top of my mind...)For example, Only recently are the Japanese portrayed in a semi-positive light in WWII TV series, which probably explains the large amount of people that participate in anti-Japanese riots.
Of course the Chinese government could do more to stop these attacks, but the political climate in China prevents it from happening. No, I'm not talking about the dictatorship of the people. See, anyone that stands up and say these actions are wrong would be labeled a traitor by both politicians and majority of the citizens alike. So politicians tries to avoid denouncing anti-foreigner actions for the sake of their own skin.
Parent
Parent is spot-on but doesn't go far enough (Score:3, Interesting)
It's more than that; that kind of nationalism (such as the "eternal dominance" claims over Tibet and Taiwan) serves directly to legitimize the power and prestige of the existing government. They're not just scared to denounce it; they actively encourage it because it helps
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And what do they do?
I don't see them doing anything they haven't seen the West - most notably the US - do over and over, and get away with it. That doesn't mean that oppression is OK, but in the real world it doesn't matter, because it doesn't matter to most people in the world, as long as they have what they want. I'm sure you can think of something you, yourself, do without caring about what goes on behind the scenes. Do you drink Coca Cola? Does it bother you that the Coca Cola company allegedly runs a factory in India tha
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I don't think they do very much. If the US (North America for that matter) decide to stop buying stuff from China, the US is done. You can't exist without your Chinese trading partners. They do all the work that American's won't do, or at least won't do for the salary paid to the Chinese.
It's a sad business (for us) but North America is screwed. Maybe not next week or next month, but sooner or later, the economy is going to collapse, infrastructu
Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
IP was from China, sooo? (Score:4, Insightful)
Lately the world's been trying to undermine China who is looking like the next superpower. Western leaders are continually meeting with the Dalai Lama to make them mad. Soon there will be Olympic boycotts.
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Exploitable installations of Linux?!? Unpossible!
Anyway, I don't think anyone is claiming that the FBI is taking these claims seriously, least of all the link, which doesn't even mention the FBI. Allyn Brooks-LaSure is free to float any wild theories he wants, but I'd be amazed if it were anything bu
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Yes, China can stone US with screwing with US dollar, but it is like going total nuclear - no one wants it because after that ther
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Re:IP was from China, sooo? (Score:4, Interesting)
I work in the network security field. Probably 70% of the IP space I block at the edge of my network is Chinese. The Pentagon and DoD have had repeated problems with hackers using Chinese IPs in the last two years or so. Make no mistake about it, this effort is tacitly (if not outrightly) being supported by the Chinese government.
Here's a sample- Google "china hacking" for plenty more: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-uschina4mar04,1,3559963.story [latimes.com]
Parent
Re:IP was from China, sooo? (Score:4, Interesting)
Lately the world's been trying to undermine China who is looking like the next superpower. Western leaders are continually meeting with the Dalai Lama to make them mad. Soon there will be Olympic boycotts.
Western leaders meet with the Dalai Lama because he is a religious leader to many people, and an advocate of peace. He does have the Nobel Peace Prize. That was not awarded as some anti-chinese conspiracy. Not everything about the Dalai Lama is about China - despite what the Chinese will try to assert. Just another example of how China does it's best to control-control-control *our* dialog. It is extremely ego-centric.
If the Chinese had done *nothing wrong*, then they would have *nothing* to censor, and would not be concerned about managing our perception of them. Their censorship in the Tibet matter speaks volumes.
There must be some cognitive disfunction when we talk about free-thinking. For example, I've seen Chinese people get extremely defensive when you talk about censorship. This country lashes out at the west for ridiculous things, such as talking to people. What type of paranoid person tries to control who other people talk to. Do the Chinese not understand free association?
The west has made many mistakes on human rights issues, and wishes that China would learn from history. So far, the Chinese have been busy revising history to create some sort of false image - a situation analogous to a person who dwells in dreams.
The west doesn't want to undermine China at all. The west just doesn't want to be tarnished by chinese crimes against it's own citizens while it greedily buys chinese goods. All this violence and censorship is entirely unnecessary.
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There are maybe 200M people in China.
Plus a billion peasants, and the peasants don't matter.
Not surprising (Score:5, Informative)
First, Sudan's north-south civil war is a separate matter from the Darfur genocide. Second, it has not only been Save Darfur, but also the entire UN, that has been trying to pressure China to stop funding the genocide. However, China has refused to budge, and likewise have the powers of the world. The only real progress that has been made is for individual states, universities, and organizations to remove all of their investments in companies that do business with the Sudanese government and indirectly profit from the genocide. Sudanese divestment has influenced many companies to pull out of contracts with Sudan and it is definitely having some effect.
For an excellent introduction to China's role in the Darfur genocide, watch Frontline's special for free online [pbs.org].
To see how much your state congressmen are doing to divest contracts from Sudan, see DarfurScores.Org [darfurscores.org]. The Sudan Divestment Task Force [sudandivestment.org] has info on which states and organizations [sudandivestment.org] are divesting, and which ones are sitting on their hands.
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http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=4717 [globalresearch.ca]
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Note on Dr. Ron Paul (Score:2)
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2) That said, I don't understand why you're a "devoted fan" of the rest of the Libertarian platform but are so upset that he's taking a perfectly consistent position on this issue.
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That would be because I'm not.
"he's taking a perfectly consistent position on this issue."
Which principle is violated if the US government selectively avoiding contracts with companies that supply the genocide?
simple and effective solution (Score:3, Informative)
OK, so don't open the emails. Really, does it need the FBI to tell you this?
Better, maybe use a platform that isn't susceptible to Word/OS viruses and trojans.
Better yet, how about some anti-virus software?
Didn't they have this covered? (Score:2)
To be honest, I heard this on slashdot; if someone can find the post or the poster elaborate, that would be great.
Suggestion (Score:2, Funny)
political testing before military testing (Score:4, Interesting)
hate to point out the obvious but (Score:5, Informative)
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(Of course, I'm not speaking of the killing of tibetans.) If hacking becomes like economic warfare, a way for countries to gain influence that doesn't involve sending people shooting each other, I say it's a good thing.