The Secret China-U.S. Hacking War? 107
bored-at-IETF-ntp-session writes "In an article at eWeek Larry Seltzer examines the supposed hacking war between the US and China. He surmises 'Even if you can't prove that the government was involved ... it still bears some responsibility'. He quotes Gadi Evron who advised the Estonians during the Russian attacks. 'I can confirm targeted attacks with sophisticated technologies have been launched against obvious enemies of China ... Who is behind these attacks can't be easily said, but it can be an American cyber-criminal, a Nigerian spammer or the Chinese themselves.' Seltzer concluded 'It's just another espionage tool, and no more or less moral than others we've used in the past.'" This a subject we've also previously discussed.
China ... is evil ... (Score:2, Insightful)
Then again, both Hillary and Obama have said they'd renegotiate NAFTA if elected (and basically blaming canada and mexico for their problems) - which is already skewed in the favor of america - to fix their domestic problems.
And the US is of course totally innocent (Score:4, Insightful)
Now you're INTENTIONALLY duping? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:More than hacking (Score:5, Insightful)
Note that this wasn't a "hacking war," and it wasn't a "Russian attack". It was a 20-year old Estonian kid with a botnet [infoworld.com]. More details here [techachino.com]
Re:Not suprised (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, FTA:
I'm thinking... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:talking about espionage (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:China ... is evil ... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:s/secret/formerly secret/ (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:China ... is evil ... (Score:-1, Insightful)
Back to the hacking. China happens to be actively purposing US. government secrets in order to catch up. If you read any news, including the fair left which rarely argees with the government, China is doing this. This is not just some story the US government made up.
Re:talking about espionage (Score:3, Insightful)
That's of course not the case, but I don't think the issue of morality within espionage is remotely cut-and-dry.
Re:China ... is evil ... (Score:5, Insightful)
There are economists who believe China has a bubble economy built on credit and corruption. So far they've done well for themselves but it's only a matter of time before they hit a downturn. And when that happens they're going to have serious problems with civil unrest. My concern is that when that happens the government will quickly start blaming other nations for all their ills.
Believe me, Chinese people have a lot to be resentful of. All that economic growth has been great, but many people have suffered greatly for it. Thousands, if not millions have lost their homes to what amounts to eminent domain to make way for new development. People have gone off to work only to return to find their homes demolished. Supposedly the government has passed property rights laws but they don't seem to have amounted to much of anything. And let's not forget how they control free speech, although people seem to have largely forgotten about that in the midst of this economic boom.
And they may be right in a few regards. There is already the big issue of low-quality goods coming out of the country. Just recently a number of people in Japan died from having eaten tainted food from China. Sales of Chinese foods have dropped dramatically. Quality clearly isn't improving but it's getting more expensive to manufacture in China. As infrastructure improves in places like India, Vietnam and elsewhere American, European and Japanese companies are going to look to those nations for their manufacturing needs.
From personal experience, a few years ago in Taiwan everyone and their grandmother was chomping at the bit to do business in China. Many gave it a try and most failed. Nowadays, there's still a good deal of interest, but people have are a lot more tentative. China's market is over-saturated with competition and business is too cutthroat. And that's to say nothing of all the corruption.
I'm not saying there aren't problems with the American economy, because there are. But the fundamentals are still good and we're on a somewhat more stable ground. This current downturn is due to speculation more than anything. Gasoline prices are high because of the weak dollar, and more importantly because of speculators. Some economists are saying that oil's value should be at about $70 per barrel, not $100+. Demand has actually dipped in the US. The problem is who the hell knows when a correction is coming. Speculation has led the housing and stock market to the situation we find ourselves today. Look at all the people who overpaid for homes because they expected to continue seeing these absurd increases in values. And that was despite the fact that we were being warned of the housing bubble.
Now, on to the topic at hand, some people have this tendency to criticize the US for it's supposed double-standards regarding this sort of thing. How can the US government complain about China doing the very thing they themselves are engaged in?
Well, here's my thinking, I live in the United States, not China. China is free to do whatever they like, of course, but I want my nation to have the upper-hand economically and militarily. I'm not saying the US should go around pushing everyone around with impunity, nor do I think the US should be invading every second country who looks at them the wrong way.
One thing China does have is a lot of nationalistic pride. Even when they're critical of the government they still manage to have a lot of ambition. When they set their minds to doing something they get it done and don't get mired in all kinds of nonsense like is so often the case here. I think that's admirable and something sorely lacking in the US.
Re:Reason Behind the Attacks (Score:2, Insightful)
Secret or Ignored? (Score:5, Insightful)
If I were going to conduct surgical attacks against a government from within a large IP block, I'd allow others with less ambitious nasty plans to use it, and hide my activities within the flood from them, like hiding an artillery attack within a thunderstorm. I have little doubt that there are "Nigerian spammers" and such using Chinese machines. That doesn't preclude their government doing it -- to my mind it indicates the probability.
And they wouldn't want reports to be entirely absent either. Taking over or subverting the infrastructure that carries content is as much a part of psychological warfare as is the content itself. Subversion of the medium is also the message, and that must become known to the system's owners and their allies. It causes mistrust in the system, its owners, and any messages to come from them. The general public wouldn't care or pay attention, but those who did care would get the intended message. And you have.
This is the war that the General who recently answered
Re:China ... is evil ... (Score:3, Insightful)
China is the cause of the US problems as its lending the US money so that the US can afford to continue to buy stuff.
I have an idea, maybe the US is to blame for being such a consumer driven society and wasting all their money on useless shipt that they hardly ever use and dont really need.
I don't think that's a fair assessment (Score:3, Insightful)
1) Taxes (35%)
2) Rent (17%)
3) Food (11%)
4) Tythe (10%)
5) Transportation (7%)
6) Student Loans (7%)
7) Therapy (6%)
6) Bills (4%)
7) Other stuff (3%)
Most of the stuff I buy from china comes from the "other stuff" department, which is my smallest expense. I think this is also a pretty typical for other Americans. I don't think it's fair to say that I or people like me waste "all their money on useless shipt that they hardly ever use and dont really need."
A bigger contributor to the trade deficit is China's deliberate manipulation of their currency. Measured in nominal dollars, the GDP of china is only about $2.5 trillion, but at purchasing power parity with US prices, it's $10 trillion. That's means that a dollar is worth four times as much in china as it is in the US. It's no wonder people chose to manufacture things in China.
Re:Not suprised (Score:2, Insightful)