Slashdot is powered by your submissions, so send in your scoop

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Security Technology

Casino Insider Tells (Almost) All About Security 232

An anonymous reader writes "ComputerWorld has up a story on casino security technology, exploring the world of facial recognition technology and various other systems in casinos such as the Bellagio, Treasure Island, and Beau Rivage. Industry veteran Jeff Jonas reveals some of the secret scams he learned from the casino industry such as the infinite hundred dollar bill, the hollowed out chip cup, the palm (trading cards), the specialty code (inserted by rogue programmer into video poker machine) and the cameraman, as well as detailing how casinos strike back against fraudsters and cheats.'"
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Casino Insider Tells (Almost) All About Security

Comments Filter:
  • Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @01:11PM (#22718824)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by g-san ( 93038 ) on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @01:24PM (#22719030)
    So we seem to accept that machines are looking at our faces and alerting humans to "suspicious" individuals. Yeah, I guess I'm ok with that. I'll get scared when I get caught, and instead of dragging me into a back room, shining a light in my face and asking me questions, I have to sit down and answer NORA's questions. Once the machine gets to decide if I am guilty, we have lost. Oh wait...
  • Untrue (Score:5, Interesting)

    by hellfire ( 86129 ) <deviladv.gmail@com> on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @01:26PM (#22719066) Homepage
    The point is that people who gamble rarely understand the odds. Those that do understand the odds and the house percentage don't unusually gamble. Or if they gamble then they count cards as well.

    Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, but I don't find this statement to be true.

    There are plenty of people who understand the odds, but still love to gamble. To them it's about the thrill of possibly hitting it big. Those who do understand the odds tend to either play games like blackjack which is the only game in the casino which has positive odds, and those who simply walk in with $500 and intends to make it last as long as they can, but know that the chances of them walking out with more than they went in are not in their favor.

    I'm not one of them, but then again I get it why others are like this.

    The ones that count cards are simply trying to shift the odds in their favor for bigger payouts, and of course really only applies to blackjack (again, the only game with odds not in favor of the casino, but you have to know how to play to get your money).
  • by thewils ( 463314 ) on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @01:27PM (#22719082) Journal
    Is a trick you can maybe play on a regular vending machine. If you hit the coin return at just the right moment, there's a chance that you'll get some or all of your money back, especially if you insert change instead of single coins.
  • by Lumpy ( 12016 ) on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @01:33PM (#22719130) Homepage
    I got approached by Casino security at the MGM Grand one night and was asked why I was looking at the cameras. I told the guy what business I was in and then proceeded to tell him about the 35 cameras that were around our general location. he was impressed and we talked a bit over a beer he bought me and even let me see one of the security offices.

    Note: I spotted that the texas Holdem tables had wide angle cameras just under the lip where you sit. Not low enough to get up-skirt shots, but where they can spot cards being handed. I started looking for it when a friend of mine was told by the pitboss to stop handing $5 chips to his friend. that's when I decided to drop my chips and bend over to pick them up and spot the lenses.
  • Takedown (Score:5, Interesting)

    by greg1104 ( 461138 ) <gsmith@gregsmith.com> on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @01:37PM (#22719188) Homepage
    Court TV used to run this series called The Takedown [tv.com]. Every week they tried to do some casino scam using a team of experts, often at the behest of the hotel's internal security. The way everything was staged was kind of fake in spots, but an interesting look regardless at the mechanics of actually trying to cheat at a casino. Fun show, don't know where it's still running but you might be able to find it somewhere (*cough* torrent *cough*).

    I personally don't play games of chance for money, just Texas Hold'Em where people with poor math skills are a steady income source.
  • by peter303 ( 12292 ) on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @01:41PM (#22719242)
    Although I've seen two treatments on cable TV about two of the MIT capers, the theatrical release this year should give casinos new headaches.
  • by UnknowingFool ( 672806 ) on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @01:50PM (#22719392)
    Maybe. The casinos might be a little worried that the MIT technique gets out into the general public and someone tries to takes them for a lot of money. More likely, they are probably delighted to rake in lots of money as novices try to beat them. Remember, it took an elite, trained team of MIT braniacs to beat them the first time. But, the casinos eventually caught on and have better countermeasures now. Your average Joe probably doesn't have what it takes to pull that caper off and will just lose all their money. Even the article says that the casinos will let card counters play if they are not good cause they lose.
  • Re:Untrue (Score:2, Interesting)

    by mikee805 ( 1091195 ) on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @02:11PM (#22719832)

    and those who simply walk in with $500 and intends to make it last as long as they can, but know that the chances of them walking out with more than they went in are not in their favor.
    I think you are describing the video poker player.

    They want just to extend their play as long as possible knowing the strategy for their game. They look at the pay table and can tell they odds right by looking. Knowing that the longer they play the better the odds hitting that big hand. Video poker is a game of skill against the odds.
  • by tgd ( 2822 ) on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @02:14PM (#22719866)
    If you bet the same every hand, you get that advantage.

    If you work with a team and the next guy bets BIG, then its hugely in your advantage.

    Your numbers are WAY off how multi-person counting works.

    Interestingly, I've had dealers help me count before. Doing simple "count the tens" helps your odds on a non-continuous-dealt game, especially if you can get a one or two deck hand dealt. I had a dealer, who was watching me pull back as the tens had largely made their appearances actually told me "you don't want to take this next hit".

    She was right.
  • by bigbigbison ( 104532 ) on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @02:19PM (#22719940) Homepage
    Having worked as a cashier in a riverboat casino I've seen a lot of this stuff. However, I've also seen and heard a lot more about employees ripping off the casino than I did about players. You don't hear about the employees ripping off the casinos though because most of the time they just fire the person and tell them never to come back. I know this happened to at least three people who worked in my department. Two were fairly minor but one was several thousand dollars over a few months (that's how long it too the auditing department to pick up on his pattern and how he hid it). There are lots of ways employees can rip off the casino because they have a lot more access and know how the system works a lot better than most customers.

    There were occasional customers passing counterfeit bills and people screwing with the machines or trying to bend cards but there was a lot more people soiling themselves because they didn't want to get up from their slot machine and people losing their homes because they were addicted (happened to a cousin of mine) or getting kicked off because they started yelling at us when their credit card was maxed out.
  • by peter303 ( 12292 ) on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @02:28PM (#22720102)
    A few years back the NY Times Sunday magazine did an article on a card counting professional at one of the los angeles paigow casinos where counters were tolerated. Because there was a bet ceiling, these guys had to play for volume to make a return, at least 40 hours a week. Often players were employed by others who supplied capital and they were paid hourly plus a share of winnings. It didnt sound that romantic.
  • by 93,000 ( 150453 ) on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @02:30PM (#22720128)
    So my question (to you or any others with experience): did they pay employees in cash at the end of each shift, or is that an urban legend? Always heard casinos did that, but never had it first hand verified.

    I used to work full time as a musician, and I do know that for most casino shows we did we were paid in cash. And they paid us about halfway through whatever time we were contracted to play so we could spend our breaks donating back our earnings. Wondering if they really to take the same approach with their own staff.
  • by davidsyes ( 765062 ) on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @02:31PM (#22720148) Homepage Journal
    Well, since you bring up card counting, I now have an angle to bring up something and hopefully avoid the dreaded, eviscerating "Off-Topic"-wand-wielding maestro...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_(2008_film) [wikipedia.org]

    I just a few weeks ago read in a copy of Asian Week how these smart AMERICAN Asians figured out a card counting method and raked in the coin from one or more casinos. Now, we've got hollyweird picking up on this and whitewashing the cast. Amazing the shit hollyweird does to calculate to obtain the best studio ticket intake.

    From Wikipedia, from Asian Week and Ben Mezrich (author of the book):

    "Casting of Caucasian/Asian

    Although the four main characters in Bringing Down the House were Asian-Americans in real life, studio executives have cast mostly white actors to portray them in the film. Ben Mezrich, author of Bringing Down the House, has noted a "stereotypical" casting process on the part of Hollywood.[1] In the book, Mezrich explicitly states that a young Caucasian betting large amounts of money stands out, while a young Asian or other minority would be less conspicuous. Asian Week called the casting a "whitewash," pointing out that if it were African Americans replaced by Caucasians, there would be more vocal protest."
  • by CodeBuster ( 516420 ) on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @02:33PM (#22720190)
    The casinos are more concerned about card counting teams then they are about individual players. In the team scenario there are counters at multiple tables who have no problem keeping the count and keeping their cool because they are always betting the minimum and never varying their bets. The trick is that they have to somehow signal the roving "high roller" to sit down when the deck is hot without tipping off security. This is one reason why many blackjack tables, particularly high limit tables, do not allow new players to sit down in the middle of a shoe (i.e. you have to wait until the shoe currently being played is finished, the cards are shuffled, and the next shoe is loaded).
  • by halcyon1234 ( 834388 ) <halcyon1234@hotmail.com> on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @02:40PM (#22720296) Journal
    Yup, a bet ceiling can make it nearly impossible to get an advantage. You have to be able to bet more in a positive count than in a negative count-- and quite a bit more. 10x as much would be nice, for most fair games.

    So if a casino opens a $10-$100 table, you MIGHT see ~$10/hour from it if you play perfectly. A few mistakes can cost you a good $1 or $2 per hour. Can you imagine doing a mind-numbingly boring job, sitting still for 8 hours a day, for just $10 per hour? Well, probably-- this is Slashdot-- but also imagine you have to personally pay for every error you make out of your own pocket.

    You can try to mitigate the negative counts by not playing those hands, and only playing positive counts. But then you get fewer hands per hour. And some games might not let you join after the shuffle has occurred. Or you might lose your seat and miss out on the high counts.

    I once spent five hours walking around a blackjack pit, and didn't see a single high-count that had an open seat. Tons of fun.

  • Re:Untrue (Score:4, Interesting)

    by greenbird ( 859670 ) * on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @02:45PM (#22720378)

    (again, the only game with odds not in favor of the casino, but you have to know how to play to get your money)

    You obviously don't understand the odds. As someone else pointed out blackjack has a definite if somewhat small percentage in the house favor. IIRC it's anywhere from 3% to 5% depending on the house rules. The best bet is actually craps. You need a table with a low minimum and a high odds bet ratio on line bets. The odds bet on line bets is the only bet in Vegas that pays out at exactly the odds of winning. The house has an advantage on the initial line bet but that can be minimized by betting the minimum initially and then putting out the maximum odds bet after you have a number. Circus Circus had tables with 10 to 1 odds bets at one time and I've seen 20 to 1 once at one of the smaller casinos but for the most part they're 2 or 3 to 1.

  • by halcyon1234 ( 834388 ) <halcyon1234@hotmail.com> on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @02:52PM (#22720504) Journal
    Yup, the teams are more of a worry, simply because any well organized team will have a huge bankroll. A red-chipper with a maximum bet of $100 isn't a worry. A team who can drop $10,000 bets with a 2% advantage is.

    Of course, there are two reasons the casinos aren't too concerned:

    1. The MIT team did it first. And the casinos figured out how they did it, so now they know what to look for. The longer a team operates, the easier they are to spot. The truth is, the MIT teams probably has made more from book sales, movie rights, public appearances and course fees than they did from counting.
    2. Teams are unbelievably difficult to get working. Just the trust issue is a major factor. Name five people in your life who you would blindly and 100% implicitly trust with $50,000 of your money. Keep in mind that you pool your bankroll, and share the profits. It just takes one bad egg to realize that they can slog out the counting for a year to see a 1-2% return on their investment-- OR they can take out $10,000 and lose it in a "bad session" (ie: they just pocket it and tell you they lost). Also, one bad player on the team (who isn't up to perfect snuff) can wipe out any profits the team will see. (If you could name five people, how many of them do you trust to be able to do simple math for 8 hours straight?) It takes months of training, analysis and testing to ensure every member is trustworthy and competent.

    So the casinos just balance the likelyhood of an effective team coming to town vs. the chance that they'll spot them in operation. Then they tally up the amount they'll earn from their tables from bad players. That'll tell them how much it's worth spending on anti-counting training/technology/etc. Why spend $500,000 on a new system to keep someone from earning $250,000 / year off you-- especially if there's only a 0.001% chance that team will come around. The numbers are fudged, but it's all just a numbers game. Somewhere along the lines, someone gets paid a bunch of money to tell them what the numbers are.

    This is one reason why many blackjack tables, particularly high limit tables, do not allow new players to sit down in the middle of a shoe (i.e. you have to wait until the shoe currently being played is finished, the cards are shuffled, and the next shoe is loaded)

    NMSE - No Mid-Shoe Entry. Yup, just about all the high-roller tables have that. It's rarer on the mid or low level tables, though, since their bread and butter is unskilled, transient traffic. I've seen a $50-$2500 table that allowed midshoe entry. Let me tell you, seeing people drop $500 a hand on a game they don't know how to play-- that's quite a sight to watch. Maybe I should just open a casino.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @03:00PM (#22720636)

    I got approached by Casino security at the MGM Grand one night and was asked why I was looking at the cameras. I told the guy what business I was in and then proceeded to tell him about the 35 cameras that were around our general location. he was impressed and we talked a bit over a beer he bought me and even let me see one of the security offices.
    The reason he was chummy is because you only spotted 35 of the cameras. The friendliness is to see if you leak any information, for example perhaps something about seeing the other seven cameras. (A drink isn't even pocket change, and it might loosen you up a bit, especially with the friendliness and a special tour.) If you'd spotted *all* the cameras, you would have been asked to leave, as you either have inside information or you're too observant for them to be comfortable with you.

    Of course, the guy himself may have been impressed, but you can bet (sorry) that you didn't *quite* hit the red zone of the cheatalyzer.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @03:10PM (#22720760)
    I've seen a slight variance of this that works on a specific slot machine. You could let a bet "ride", and then after pressing another button, the machine would allow the player to cash out that same bet. The casino I worked for lost quite a bit due to this in 24 hours from FIVE quarter slot machines. I noticed it from change people refilling the machines about every five minutes.

    I was rather amazed at the casino's incompetence regarding this. I worked floor security. I alerted my security shift supervisor, several slot technicians, the tribal council rep, and they all thought I was talking out of my ass and had a good laugh at my expense. I thought it was rather obvious that allowing a bet and then the refund of the same bet really screwed any kind of regular odds. I don't think they were laughing so hard when auditing turned up the $300k discrepancy after a week or so. That's a thousand (or so) quarter change refills of those five slot machines.

    Scarily incompetent. Then they fired me for "disloyalty" to the casino because I didn't have gaming halted on those machines. A general floor security idiot (me at the time) can't close gaming or kick people out of the casino. Bastards. :P
  • by Yold ( 473518 ) on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @03:26PM (#22720938)
    And at one point, the team starting taking on rather large losses. The odds only work in your favor some of the time, so even if you are card-counting with perfect precision, you can still lose large sums of money with bum luck. A considerable portion of their success also had to do with playing with "invested" money, so their tolerance for loss is higher than joe-average playing with his paycheck.

    The counter measures you speak of involves using more decks for blackjack, I believe 5 is standard. Any discrete math / blackjack pros care to comment whether this affects the probabilities adversely for a player counting cards?
  • Re:Untrue (Score:2, Interesting)

    by egyptiankarim ( 765774 ) on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @03:35PM (#22721064) Homepage
    My math geek friends and I used to call gambling in Vegas and playing the lottery the "Math Tax." People who suck at prob and stat usually are the only ones who get audited :)
  • Re:Untrue (Score:0, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @03:40PM (#22721122)

    Do you really play enough craps to notice a .35% difference? Obviously, the casino will see the difference since they play 24 hours a day. Is it worth it to go to a "crappy casino" for less that a half a percent advantage?

    It's not so much the difference, but the absolute edge. 0.02% house edge means that for every $100.00 you bet, they win $0.02 and you keep $99.98. At that rate, you can bet $100 every 5 seconds and only be down $14.40 in an hour. At 0.37%, you'd be down $266.40 in that same hour.

    What this really means is that you can play for long enough to take advantage of a "good luck streak", and hopefully win a few dollars. If you enjoy the gambling in the first place, add in free drinks and cash in your pocket and it's a pretty good deal.

  • by PCM2 ( 4486 ) on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @03:54PM (#22721254) Homepage
    I used to work at a 7-11 and believe me, the prominently-placed security cameras there were less about recognizing the face of the stick-up man as he's making his getaway and more about watching the employees as they lift money out of the register and put it into the pockets of their smocks. People are stupid. They steal, and they steal for bullshit stakes.

    My 7-11 had a policy where employees kept <$100 in the register (all $20 bills and up went immediately into the timed safe). We had one employee who "forgot" the policy one particular day, and "coincidentally" that was the same day some "random" guy came in, held him up, and took all the money out of the register -- less than $1K but considerably more than was supposed to be in there. The employee really, seriously thought that the video cameras were going to vindicate him -- "look, there's the guy threatening me, isn't he scary?" As if an armed robbery had ever happened at this suburban 7-11 store before, in all the years it had been in business, up until exactly about three weeks after this clown was hired.

    Another guy had been working there for about two days when some kids ran in and, in a flash, stole about six cases of beer. Security cameras showed the employee was nowhere to be found during the robbery. An eyewitness later came forward and said the employee had been standing out in front of the store during the incident, smoking a cigarette.

    The smartest guy who ever ripped the place off actually kept his cool and bided his time. He was this Abercrombie and Fitch looking kid who was always all smiles and glad-handing, always ready to agree with the owners, always ready to talk down the other employees. Compared to the rest of the long-haired tweakers who worked at the store, he must have looked like the all-American boy. So they made him manager. About a month later, he walked away from the back office with about $6,000, abandoning his car in the lot.

    Even that guy was stupid, though. Like I said, he abandoned his car in the front lot. So a coworker and I broke into it. Rifling his dashboard, we found a court summons. He was scheduled to appear in about two weeks' time on a prior charge. We called the sheriff's department and asked if they could please meet him at his court date at such-and-such time. And guess what? He actually showed up.

    But the cops didn't. They showed up about 45 minutes late, by which time the case had already cleared the docket. Better luck next time, huh? So I guess the moral of the story is that there's a reason for stuff like video cameras if you're a business owner. Better grab all the evidence you can possibly get, because you might need it later. If you rely on the cops you could be in for a long wait.
  • Re:Untrue (Score:3, Interesting)

    by badboy_tw2002 ( 524611 ) on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @04:08PM (#22721422)
    I don't know, I've played $5 blackjack in vegas for hours starting with $60-$75. You can consume those drinks pretty fast - even if you're down $10-$20 you're beating the average at the bar for drinks. (I also include tip for the waitress in there - no tip, no drinks) :) Of course, I've had runs where you lose it all in the first 15 hands, but that's pretty much as rare as winning it all in the first 15 hands.
  • by MozeeToby ( 1163751 ) on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @04:17PM (#22721506)
    I remember the show "Breaking Vegas" had a guy who did exactly that. Press a certain sequence of keys and you are assured a win on the next play.

    They have several safegaurds to prevent that kind of thing (especially now). I know that it is illegal for anyone involved in the developement/design/testing to enter a casino. I would imagine that they would have code reviews with a variety of people as well.

    Also, that Breaking Vegas show was awesome. They did the big well known ones like the MIT team but also hit some that I had never heard of like the slot machine guy. Other highlights were the shoe computer to calculate the result of ruelette and analyzing the random number generator for keno to figure out the next game.
  • Re:Untrue (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Tacvek ( 948259 ) on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @04:28PM (#22721666) Journal

    I know the odds and I still love to gamble. I like craps. It's fun. However, you don't know anything about casino odds if you think there is any game where the player has an edge. Blackjack only has an edge if you're a good counting player. As far as strategy goes, the calculated house edge is based on you playing perfect basic strategy. Basic strategy meaning memorizing the *entire* basic strategy card. Btw, the best bet in the casino is the "dealer" or "banker" bet in baccarat.
    I thought it was the free odds bet in Craps. Hmmm... Lets see. That does seem to be correct. from Wikipedia: "banker bet (despite the 5% commission) has an advantage of 1.06%." However the free odds bets have no house advantage. Exactly 0%. To counter this though, they can only be made in conjunction with a pass/don't-pass or come/don't-come bet. Taking that into account the house advantage on the overall bet is determined by the allowed multiple for free odds. Again from Wiki: "But even with a conservative triple odds on the pass line, the casino edge can be reduced to 0.471%." That is a minuscule house advantage.
  • Re:Untrue (Score:4, Interesting)

    by bkr1_2k ( 237627 ) on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @04:43PM (#22721814)
    Over my last few trips to Vegas, I've only lost once, and that was $10 after tip. I generally start with $100 at $5 tables and play for at least 4 hours and generally have a couple drinks per hour. Overall I'm only up about $200 for all my trips because I don't generally play "by the rules" but rather "by my gut". I've spent at least 20 hours at the tables, enjoyed some 30-50 drinks or so, and enjoyed the company of some very interesting people.

    I'd say that's far less than the cost of equivalent entertainment at the movies which would have cost me something like $350 (for me and someone else) just in ticket costs. Factor in that I'm actually ahead $200 and I got a couple hundred dollars worth of drinks, and I'd say it must be the movies I'm doing wrong because half of them weren't worth theater ticket prices.
  • Re:Untrue (Score:3, Interesting)

    by SQLGuru ( 980662 ) on Tuesday March 11, 2008 @07:19PM (#22723268) Homepage Journal
    It's not that the game "knows" or anything, each bet exercises the odds discreetly. Just because the house has a 5% edge it can lose any sequence of bets. The argument about deeper pockets is that, sure, over time, the odds will favor the house by 5%, but short runs can turn out in favor of the player. But when those runs turn out in favor of the house, the player does not have infinite resources from which to draw in order to survive until the next run in their favor. The house (compared to the player) has effectively infinite resources.

    Layne

One man's constant is another man's variable. -- A.J. Perlis

Working...