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Indian Software Firm Outsourcing Jobs To US 444

Posted by ScuttleMonkey
from the turnabout-is-fair-play dept.
phobos13013 writes "NPR is reporting Indian software maker Wipro is outsourcing positions to a development office opening in Atlanta, Georgia. Although it sounds good for US job growth, the implication is that firms outside the US appear to be dominating more and more in the global economy, even from developing and underdeveloped regions of the world. Similarly, salaries of IT professionals world-wide are projected to stagnate or possibly fall due to the large pool of qualified applicants in the market today."
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Indian Software Firm Outsourcing Jobs To US

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  • by oni (41625) on Friday September 07, 2007 @12:26PM (#20509467) Homepage
    large pool of qualified applicants in the market today

    qualified. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means
    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by heelrod (124784)
      Yea, I dont think I would use the word qualified.

      But hey, with the way software gets crappier and crappier, I guess they are
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by cromar (1103585)
      Qualified to be payed 20k more than me while knowing less than me after being in the field longer than me and qualified to get promoted to another dept with higher salary. Qualified to write really shitty code I have to maintain^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hrewrite. (And, apparently, qualified to teach a C class once or twice - shudder.)

      See, the word isn't misused, it's that the qualifications have little to do with skill or... anything besides politics and ignorance.
    • But then again, WHO IS?
    • by CaffeineAddict2001 (518485) on Friday September 07, 2007 @01:12PM (#20510425)
      If you are going to outsource code, do it to someplace COLD. The Netherlands, Finland, Sweden, Russia, etc. All of those countries seem to have unusually large supply of good coders. The only problem is that you end up with functions like b0rk(B0rk *bork) { }
      • by roystgnr (4015) <roystgnr AT ticam DOT utexas DOT edu> on Friday September 07, 2007 @02:52PM (#20512205) Homepage
        cpsJust vbDont vbOutsource ppYour nCode prepTo cntryHungary.
        • by CaffeineAddict2001 (518485) on Friday September 07, 2007 @03:03PM (#20512355)
          I'm actually a fan of Hungarian notation. It's nice to be able to know both the scope and type of a variable just by looking at it.
          • by Surt (22457) on Friday September 07, 2007 @03:15PM (#20512525) Homepage Journal
            That's building a tool (understanding scope and type) into your coding style. Always a bad idea. Build the tools around your coding style, and keep your style as elegant and simple as possible.

            As a relatively trivial example of where this goes wrong, refactoring such a variable can trivially result in the code lying to you about the type and scope of a variable. If you instead have a tool that will tell you the scope and type based on inspection, it will never lie to you.

            Hungarian notation was a bad bad idea created by someone with a poor understanding of and lacking insight into the problem they were trying to solve.
            • by CaffeineAddict2001 (518485) on Friday September 07, 2007 @03:33PM (#20512763)
              I disagree. Refactoring is a very trivial problem to solve as well. Hungarian notation is generally only used for private and local variables and in that case "refactoring" just means doing a search-and-replace.

              I actually got into the habit of doing this by working with a blind co-worker who couldn't easily use most the tools that modern IDEs provide. I've actually found it improved my productivity to not have to rely on these kinds of tools and have all the information I need on the screen at one time.

              • by Surt (22457) on Friday September 07, 2007 @05:10PM (#20514269) Homepage Journal
                You're making my case for me: you're asking programmers to put overhead time into their work to make hungarian notation work (and demanding that they not make mistakes!). Hungarian notation is error-prone. It's not going to help your blind coworker if it is wrong.
            • Hungarian Notation (Score:3, Insightful)

              by hotsauce (514237)
              Oh jeeze, not again. [slashdot.org]

              • by Surt (22457) on Friday September 07, 2007 @05:17PM (#20514345) Homepage Journal
                Heh. The discussion you reference is linking Joel on software. I send beginners there and ask: give me a list of all the things Joel is obviously wrong about. I keep the ones who are smart enough to come back and say: I don't want to spend that much time writing it all down.
                • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

                  by IainMH (176964)
                  Joel is opinionated. But he generally backs up his opinions with at least some argument.

                  I wouldn't trust anyone who says "I don't want to write why he's wrong down". Esp. 'beginners'. Whatever you may think of him or what he says he's been doing this a long time. Most of the time what he says is at least worth listening to. What you do with that information from there is up to you.

                  Typing is easy. Shaping an effective retort is not.

                  Prove me wrong. Reply with five or more things that he's so obviously w
          • by frank_adrian314159 (469671) on Friday September 07, 2007 @03:15PM (#20512527) Homepage
            I'm actually a fan of Hungarian notation. It's nice to be able to know both the scope and type of a variable just by looking at it.

            Dammit, Simonyi, no one asked you! Now just go away.

      • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

        by kalirion (728907)
        Are those countries populated by Trolls with silicon brains?
    • by Lumpy (12016) on Friday September 07, 2007 @01:31PM (#20510787) Homepage
      Qualified: appears to or on paper seems to be able to do the job. usually appears alongside a plethora of assorted "certifications" to further build on the assumption that the person is capable of doing the job.

      Experienced: Has solid proof of abilities, usually lack certifications as Experienced professionals look down upon the certifications as most are nothing more than proof you can memorize and take a test. Very few certifications hold merit with seasoned and experienced professionals. The ones that do are held in high regard.

      Basically to tell the difference, the more certifications a person has the greater the possibility that they are simply a useless tool. Yes I have tested this in real life. when looking for a outsourced programming company the ones that all the clients have the MOST trouble with are the ones that touted all kinds of certifications the employees need. ALSO many times these companies will violate your terms on the contract. I have had to inform clients on several occasions to pay for the removal of OSS code or not release their product or release the source code in order to be compliant with the law. The Outsourced firm used GPL libraries and snippets, even left the original headers and comments in there. That was 3 years ago though when I was a Code Monkey in Corporate America. I am certain it has not gotten any better.
  • by cayenne8 (626475) on Friday September 07, 2007 @12:26PM (#20509469) Homepage Journal
    Hey, it's not like we didn't willingly give it all away...

    We freely sent off our manufacturing, then our IT, and a good bit of agriculture. But thankfully, we still have a great service industry, lots of restaurants, etc. That'll keep us safe in times of financial/world troubles.

    • by sznupi (719324)
      It's not like it depends only on whether US decides, or not, to give it/something away.
    • by bnenning (58349) on Friday September 07, 2007 @01:47PM (#20511145)
      US manufacturing output is at a record high [uschina.org] (PDF). It's true that fewer Americans are employed in the manufacturing sector, because efficiency has increased so much. This is good, for the same reasons that free software is good.
      • by megaditto (982598) on Friday September 07, 2007 @02:26PM (#20511807)
        To play devil's advocate here, not everybody benefits from improved efficiency. Old, undereducated, less intelligent people cannot easily retrain. This 'they-stole-my-jerb' croud still gets to vote however, so something must be done about their issues.

        Sure, some are able to put away their pickaxe or lathe, take up Game Theory or Biochemistry books and courses, and grow into their new high-tech workplace. The others (in America) were better off before globalization moved in.

      • by sauge (930823) on Friday September 07, 2007 @02:43PM (#20512079)
        US company makes gadgets ready for assembly.

        They send gadgets over seas to be assembled

        Gadget is sent back to US company for adding to another gadget.

        US company claims entire sequence as increase in US productivity.

        Is the productivity increase really said to belong to the US company?

        Many economists calculating GDP are beginning to question it.
    • by Colin Smith (2679) on Friday September 07, 2007 @02:22PM (#20511711)

      We freely sent off our manufacturing, then our IT, and a good bit of agriculture. But thankfully, we still have a great service industry, lots of restaurants, etc. That'll keep us safe in times of financial/world troubles.
      Actually. It's pretty much all caused by the petrodollar.

      You're too expensive because the petrodollar tends to deflate. There's high demand for dollars to pay for oil, the world over. It makes Americans expensive.

      The current world troubles are caused by the US interest in preventing the dollar from losing it's reserve status. Iraq, Iran, Saudi etc.

      The current financial problems are caused by the dollar being a debt based currency. Debt increases exponentially, it requires exponentially increasing economy and additional loans to service the debt and continue growing. So liquidity is piled in exponentially, the debts grow accordingly. Eventually you have to get even those unable to pay involved, in order to continue the growth. The crash is inevitable, nothing can grow exponentially forever. However the longer the growth period the bigger the bump. In the past few years the central banks have piled in cash in order to glide over some of the smaller bumps, basically just lining up for a bigger crash later. It's more of an issue right now because the dollar has become less desirable internationally forcing up interest rates.
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by hswerdfe (569925)
        In theory an abstract concept, say like the money supply can technically increase forever.
        I do agree with you about debt based money being bad, and basically your whole post, except that small point. Because in theory our money supply is slowly losing its connection with the real world. IE the connection to work done and actual physical objects made or removed from the ground.

      • by vinn01 (178295) on Friday September 07, 2007 @04:04PM (#20513243)
        Yes, the world market is irrational. It happens every couple of decades. If you intend to try to profit from the current financial irrationality, remember this:

        "The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent" - John Maynard Keynes.
  • by Champ (91601) on Friday September 07, 2007 @12:27PM (#20509497)
    U.S. companies outsourcing jobs to foreign countries: bad for the U.S.

    Foreign companies outsourcing jobs to the U.S.: bad for the U.S.
    • by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 07, 2007 @12:33PM (#20509619)

      U.S. companies outsourcing jobs to foreign countries: bad for the U.S.

      Foreign companies outsourcing jobs to the U.S.: bad for the U.S.
      Of course it doesn't actually mean what the editor's comments say. All we can really conclude is that the Indian company found labor more accessible and/or cheaper in the USA. Or has some totally irrational motive, for all we know.

      Doesn't say anything about labor prices either. If it was outsourced because they couldn't find enough cheap labor in India, that's *good* news for wages.
    • When a US company outsources to another US company, it's a win for the US.
    • US companies outsoucing jobs to Indian who THEN outsource back to the US ==> Bone-headed AND bad for the US
    • by Trojan35 (910785) on Friday September 07, 2007 @01:14PM (#20510485)
      Last week on Slashdot: We don't have enough engineers! Should we subsidize those majors in college?
      This week on Slashdot: Too many engineers! Salaries are falling!
      • by supremebob (574732) <themejunky.geocities@com> on Friday September 07, 2007 @01:33PM (#20510839) Journal
        Companies like IBM and Microsoft say that they need more programmers and engineers all the time. In reality, they need more CHEAP programmers and engineers from China and India. Paying for the experienced programmers and engineers already out there aren't as good for the profit margins.
        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by Xtravar (725372)
          We always hear how Microsoft and Google only hire the brightest and make their working environment so cushy. I doubt that means they're looking for cheap developers. And judging from the quality of MS products, I think cheap developers would be disastrous to the thin trust their clients have left.

          My company, albeit not Microsoft or Google, hires a fraction of a percentage of the developers who apply... and we hire mainly out of college students so they aren't rejected for lack of experience. The truth of
        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by homer_s (799572)
          In reality, they need more CHEAP programmers and engineers from China and India. Paying for the experienced programmers and engineers already out there aren't as good for the profit margins.

          What is wrong with that?
          I also want cheap cars, cheap clothes, cheap shoes, etc. I assume a majority of consumers are like me. Why shouldn't companies act in the same way?
          If in the quest for cheap goods, I buy crappy ones, then I suffer. Similarly, if MS and IBM hire crappy coders just because they are cheap (somet
      • by Greyfox (87712) on Friday September 07, 2007 @01:52PM (#20511227) Homepage Journal
        Wikipedia says the number of engineers in the USA has tripled in the last three months. It must be true!

        Or at least it will say that by the time you read this post.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by GnarlyDoug (1109205)
      Pretty much. As funny as it sounds, both are bad, at least if they represent large scale trends. Option one means America's labor force is not competitive. The other means that the other countries now have first world economies, infrastructure, and most importantly that the dollar has become so weak that American labor is now cheap.

      This is not a case of saying all news is bad news. These two items do not represent the only options. Both are flip-sides of America now being a bad place for capital invest

  • by Judg3 (88435) * <jeremy.pavleck@com> on Friday September 07, 2007 @12:28PM (#20509529) Homepage Journal
    Seriously, why is this such a surprise to everyone? When you going a global economy, it's like opening a flood gate; initially there's a huge rush out (everyone outsources), then some smaller waves back (people demand more insourced jobs), then - well, then it all balances out (US Company A outsources to India, Indian Company B outsources to the US, Mexican company G outsources to the UK, UK Company L outsources to Oz, etc etc).

    In fact, isn't this exactly what everyone was telling us would eventually happen 8 years ago? So shouldn't we have been expecting it?
    • Of course you are right. In fact, you are too right. Protectionists can no longer remain in denial that its happening, so they try to put a negative spin on it when it does happen. They may be right in one respect--the U.S. can't power over other countries economically--but I'm not interested in an international pissing contest.
    • by krgallagher (743575) on Friday September 07, 2007 @01:35PM (#20510899) Homepage
      "Seriously, why is this such a surprise to everyone?"

      I am a natve US citizen, Caucasian male. I worked for Wipro [wipro.com] recently, and they are a very good company. They paid me competitive rates to what I would get from a US company, and had excellent benefits. Their US home office is in Sunnyvale California about two blocks from Google. If it wasn't for the fact that I was ready to get out of a job that had me living in airports and hotels, I would still be there today.

      Most of what I did was to put an American face on what is basically an Indian company. Any major development was handed off to my counterparts in India where skilled labor is cheaper. I spent an enormous amount of time acting as an interpreter on conference calls for customers who could not understand English with an Indian accent. I also did a lot of requirements gathering because the language barrier made it a painful process for many of our customers. It really was a good job, and if you have the personality that will let you be a good traveling consultant I highly recommended Wipro.

      • by kahei (466208) on Friday September 07, 2007 @02:59PM (#20512307) Homepage

        Well, I haven't worked for Wipro. I *have* had them working for *me* and it was an unrepeatable experience -- scared, inexperienced, homesick, basically useless Indian guys supplied on a constantly revolving system, spending about a month on the project and then either disappearing or being rotated somewhere else. The absolutely classic bad side of outsourcing.

        They're probably OK to work *for*, though, if you aren't one of those guys.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by bcharr2 (1046322)
      I'm sorry, but your analysis is all wrong.

      So far there has been no flood of jobs back into the states, or even a trickle for that matter. Nor is there expected to be. As a matter of fact, it is just the opposite. The firm in question believes that many American companies still do not trust Indian programming services, and their solution is to open an American office and put an American face on their services. They are looking to build a "brand name", if you will.

      Their stated end goal is to actually se
  • by Cro Magnon (467622) on Friday September 07, 2007 @12:30PM (#20509557) Homepage Journal
    Another story about outsourcing to 3rd world countries!
  • Large pools? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    This sounds a bit weird "Large pool of qualified applicants in the market today". What large pools, there is a shortage of qualified applicants in the IT industry as a whole, or is this just in issulated areas of the world? In Denmark at least there is a HUGE shortage of qualified people, especially if your a softare developer.

  • Similarly, salaries of IT professionals world-wide are projected to stagnant or possibly fall due to the large pool of qualified applicants in the market today."

    Stagnate, not stagnant.
  • by MikeRT (947531) on Friday September 07, 2007 @12:32PM (#20509603) Homepage
    There is a LOT of bureaucracy to comply with, and a lot of countries are now offering simplified corporate taxes and regulations to boost interest in their economies. Eastern Europe is a very good example. Not only have many of those countries adopted flat corporate taxes, which cut down on the cost of compliance, and the rates are pretty low and getting lower. The last I heard, the total cost of compliance with our income tax, personal and corporate, is about $286B a year in lost productivity, added bureaucracy, etc. It's ironic, but ending the variable-rate (I'm loathe to call such a stupid system "progressive") income tax in the United States alone, and replacing it with a very simple flat tax would constitute a sweeping tax cut just in terms of the resources freed up from the bullshit compliance efforts.

    It doesn't help too that many Americans view things like health care as their God-given right. Many people don't want to even pay for their own health care. They foist those costs onto their employers, and the result is that we have an auto industry that is collapsing because it has to cut corners on the quality of its cars to price them at the same rate that Japanese companies, which don't lavish effectively unlimited health care coverage, onto their employees. GM, for example, has about $1,500/car in expenses just for health care that it has to pay for its union workers, many of whom haven't gotten the memo: most corporate employees don't get these benefits, why should they?

    Deregulation, a simplified tax code and making people pay their own way are the only things that will make America able to compete with these leaner, cheaper countries.
    • is that it is incredibly expensive to begin with. A week in a hospital can cost as much as 100k$. The result is "drive-through" surgery. WTF?

      Also, if I have an insurance policy that the hospital accepts, the cost of a procedure is X$. If I don't have insurance, it'x 2X or even 3X$. Again, WTF?

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      The last I heard, the total cost of compliance with our income tax, personal and corporate, is about $286B a year in lost productivity, added bureaucracy, etc. It's ironic, but ending the variable-rate (I'm loathe to call such a stupid system "progressive") income tax in the United States alone, and replacing it with a very simple flat tax would constitute a sweeping tax cut just in terms of the resources freed up from the bullshit compliance efforts.

      I certainly wouldn't disagree with this, but I'd like t
  • by TheLink (130905) on Friday September 07, 2007 @12:33PM (#20509613) Journal
    Wasn't there a Dilbert comic strip where Dilbert's company outsources to X who outsources to Y who outsources to .... who outsources to Dilbert's company.

    And everyone lies a bit about meeting the SLAs and so quotes cheaper prices. ;)
  • The fact that software development is often outsourced, off-shored, and then off-shored again should make it quite clear that the work quality of the average developer is about the same as cheap commodity coffee beans.
    • The fact that software development is often outsourced, off-shored, and then off-shored again should make it quite clear that the work quality of the average developer is about the same as cheap commodity coffee beans.
      I guess you've noticed that the expensive fair-trade, organic, shade-grown coffee tastes incredibly good. Sometimes you DO get what you pay for.
  • by SkinnyKid63 (1104787) on Friday September 07, 2007 @12:35PM (#20509669)
    So does this mean that when Indians call for tech supported, they will get angry because they can't understand the American accent of someone claiming to be Raehan?
  • Misleading summary (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 07, 2007 @12:37PM (#20509715)
    "Similarly, salaries of IT professionals world-wide are projected to stagnant or possibly fall due to the large pool of qualified applicants in the market today."

    TFA only mentions the Indian tech industry. I'm sure you could make a case for a world-wide effect from this, but the article doesn't mention it.
  • by tshak (173364) on Friday September 07, 2007 @12:41PM (#20509811) Homepage
    This recent article [rediff.com] discusses an interesting paradox India is in: It will have high unemployment among the educated, but only because those educated are not skilled enough to perform the required jobs (including, but not limited to, IT). The point is that India will not be able to come close to meeting the demand of an estimated workforce shortage of 40 million by 2012.
  • Similarly, salaries of IT professionals world-wide are projected to stagnant or possibly fall due to the large pool of qualified applicants in the market today.


    If by qualified, you mean "willing to undercut someone who can get the job done right", then sure. The fact remains that some companies will understand that to get the job done right will cost a fair salary.

    Lots of people play football, too... but not everybody makes it to the NFL.
  • Can you show me exactly where this pool of "qualified" applicants is? My company is desperate to hire quality people. Despite extensive pre-screening, I'd say no more than 20% (and that's optimistic) of people who make it to an in-person interview are nearly qualified. Maybe 10% I'm impressed with.

    Knowing how to write C/C++/Java or anything else is not sufficient to be "qualified". In fact, I'd sooner hire someone who was bright, creative, well-versed in computer *science*, and doesn't know a compiled lang
    • by ErikZ (55491) *
      If only there were some sort of online forum where dedicated geeks hung out. Then it would be easy to find people!
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by wiggles (30088)
      The situation you speak of is the tendency of employers to only hire people with the exact skill set they're looking for. Much of the time, the people with those skills just don't exist. The solution is not to reject all applicants, but to hire someone who, though they may not possess the specific skills the employer needs, can come up to speed on the relevant technology.

      The problem is also one of education. Employers are looking for Java programmers with experience in J2EE, SOAP, XML, SOA, OMGWTFBBQ, an
  • by blueZ3 (744446) on Friday September 07, 2007 @12:44PM (#20509851) Homepage
    it's communication with co-workers and the difficulties that come integrating remote teams.

    My brother-in-law is a developer for a big fininacial services operation, and they attempted to outsource a project. Eventually management gave up and brought the work back to the home office, as the quality of code coming out of the outsourcing house was crap. Basically, a lot of the code they sent back was buggy or hard to integrate and had to be debugged and redone by the on-site developers.

    But I'm not sure that that's an indication that the coders were poor (though that's a possibility). Basically, you're asking folks to communicate across both a language barrier and time difference that just makes it really difficult to do so with good results. Not impossible, perhaps, but difficult. Considering the difficulties that folk speaking the same primary language and sitting in the same room have communicating, I think it's safe to say very difficult.

    Moving your "onshore outsourcing" to Georgia or wherever might address language issues, but the problems that come with integrating a remote team aren't going to go away.
  • by homer_s (799572)
    Similarly, salaries of IT professionals world-wide are projected to stagnant or possibly fall due to the large pool of qualified applicants in the market today.

    Similarly, the price of computer hardware world-wide are projected to stagnate or possibly fall due to improvements in technology and an increase in the number of manufacturers. We all know that cannot be good for the industry.

    When the cost of any product (or service) falls, more people/companies can use that product due to the reduced cost an
  • Over 90% of the IT coworkers I've had in the past 10 years of my IT career had NO education in IT whatsoever. I'm also sorry to report that it reflects in the quality of their work.
  • BIZARRO outsourcing?
  • Hey if somebody else is knocking at your country's door and catering better to business (as far as business is concerned) then more power to you. The rest of us will have to learn to adapt to a changing world, choose to die, or die trying. Everybody is adverse to change, but it's often not such a big deal if you embrace it -- only then will you be able to see the opportunies when you learn to work with it instead of fearing it.
  • Not what you expect. (Score:4, Informative)

    by king-manic (409855) on Friday September 07, 2007 @12:52PM (#20510015)
    There are a lot of cautionary tales about outsourcing and often the infrastructure necessary to successfully out source over seas almost negates the cost benefit. You need good bilingual managers, well thought out specifications, a good out sourcing firm or subsidiary, rigorous hiring practices and a "friend" in the over seas government to protect you investment. It's worth it if you need extra capacity with more flexibility (as over seas hiring/firing can be easier). From personal experience hiring an over seas firm does not guarantee any cost savings and if your only looking to shave your costs you may find out like my previous company that out sourcing can be a multi hundreds of million dollar catastrophe.

    I've been part of small companies that hired a over seas company to to find out they paid a retainer for almost nothing. I've been part of a large company that spend a couple hundred million and got back a unusable piece of trash. The company was Isreali. Many heads rolled.
  • by zymano (581466) on Friday September 07, 2007 @12:54PM (#20510053)

    We need internet FAST ENOUGH(which it isn't) that we can hire indian doctors for the poor.

    Thats right. I am sure outsourcing to india would save the lower incomes a good penny.

    Robotic Surgery with a doctor all the way in India or China?

    Sounds good to me. I am sure the medical lobby will deem it too dangerous since they care for us so much.

     
  • Although, it sounds good for US job growth, the implication is that firms outside the US appear to be dominating more and more in the global economy, even from developing and underdeveloped regions of the world.


    First, the bad news was that jobs were being outsourced. Now the bad news is that the jobs are coming back to the US.

  • the job you had before it was outsourced was outsourced back to you at 1/3 the pay!
  • Wipro [wiprocorporate.com] is a conglomerate that makes and sells soaps and shampoo and other baby products. Are we sure it is the IT division that is opening the office in Atlanta, GA, and not one of the soap division opening an export office?
  • Reasons for this (Score:5, Informative)

    by Necroman (61604) on Friday September 07, 2007 @01:00PM (#20510187)
    Listening to the audio version of the story, I found a few key points:

    * US programmers are still much more expensive than programmers in other countries.
    * Wipro has software houses in multiple countries around the world, their is their first Software house in the US though.
    * US programmers know about the culture and idioms of this country, which is needed for some jobs.
    * Any defense contracts must be worked on my US based developers.
  • I laughed out loud at this.

    Businesses consider cost over quality 80% of the time.

    So you are always losing excellence as they cut meat, defer upgrades, stifle PO's for required software and then get upset later when you do not achieve excellence.

    The easy ride for businesses of cheap IT is ending in 2010. We are already losing people left and right at my corp because other local businesses are giving them 20% raises-- and we pay what I thought was darn good salaries (around six figures after bonus).
  • LIES LIES LIES!!! (Score:5, Informative)

    by MCHammer (110588) on Friday September 07, 2007 @01:09PM (#20510371)
    I live in Atlanta Georgia and a lot of people are talking about how this company will be bringing jobs to Atlanta. The truth is that while they will be hiring people, this will result in a NET LOSS for Atlanta and the United States.

    The way this works is that Fortune 50 companies in Atlanta like Bell South, Coca-Cola, Delta, etc. have contracts with US based firms and employ US based resources. The movement is now to outsource to India. The problem is that they realize that they have to have someone in the United States to actually talk to the customer and deal with problems. These people will be the business analysts and the technical architects that feed the people off shore. While they say that these companies are creating jobs in the United States, the truth is that most of them will be landed resources also from India under H1B visa.

    The result of this is that the 50 people in Atlanta that were working in IT are now replaced by 40 off shore people, 5 landed people in Atlanta, and 5 local people. I'm not judging whether it's good or bad or right or wrong, I'm just clarifying what is really happening because most people are way off on this one.
    • by ObiWonKanblomi (320618) on Friday September 07, 2007 @01:41PM (#20511025) Journal
      These people will be the business analysts and the technical architects that feed the people off shore. While they say that these companies are creating jobs in the United States, the truth is that most of them will be landed resources also from India under H1B visa.

      Of all the points I have seen on this thread, the above quote is the most legitimate. I'm a business IT consultant with a focus on custom application development. I'm one of those "technical architects" he speaks of. Our local teams are rather small with our full-time consultants to build the foundation of the applications and we then tap into a pool of contractors to do fill in the implementations as provided by the design me, my fellow consultants and business analysts construct.

      One of the things the parent does overlook is that aside from experience and technical skill, clear communication skills are essential. I remember being told back in college in the late 90s I would need strong communication skills (granted English is my first language). I am not referring to only plain English but also an understanding of "International" English (to speak to our Indian associates and any other people who aren't familiar with localized metaphors) and business-speak. In addition, it takes a level of being assertive and proactive.
  • by MarkWatson (189759) on Friday September 07, 2007 @01:09PM (#20510373) Homepage
    About 10 years ago my wife and I moved from a beach area in California to North Central Arizona - partly because it is a beautiful place and partly because a much lower cost of living in Arizona has freed us up to be more flexible in our working (or not working). Neither one of us has had a job in an office since our move, and we both only work on projects that interest us.

    Frankly, I can not understand why so many people trade both their time and preference to work on interesting projects for material stuff like frequently buying new cars, homes that are much larger than they really need, etc. I believe that this odd behavior is caused by a lifetime of subjecting oneself to advertising, but that is just a theory :-)
  • Non news (Score:3, Insightful)

    by suv4x4 (956391) on Friday September 07, 2007 @01:12PM (#20510415)
    NPR is reporting Indian software maker Wipro is outsourcing positions to a development office opening in Atlanta, Georgia. Although, it sounds good for US job growth, the implication is that firms outside the US appear to be dominating more and more in the global economy

    So let me get this straight, a single company was found to open a US office, and the implication is that firms outside the US dominate the global economy ??

    NPR should adjust the weight they contribute to a single anecdotal case I believe.

    In a global economy you'll see Indian companies opening US offices and US companies opening offices in India. You'll see Japanese companies having US devisions that outgrow the Japanese ones and basically everything.

    Borders don't mean jack anymore. You pick a place that has the people you want, the market you want and the taxes you want, and go for it.
  • Kids choices? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Tablizer (95088) on Friday September 07, 2007 @01:12PM (#20510423) Homepage Journal
    Would you really recommend IT to school kids evaulating future careers with the canon of globalization pointed right up IT's ass? Things may turn out okay, or they may get worse. But you have to admit the global monkey is on IT's back, making it a risky career choice.
  • by peacefinder (469349) <alan...dewitt@@@gmail...com> on Friday September 07, 2007 @01:29PM (#20510757) Journal
    Movies? Check.
    Microcode? Check.
    Now for high-speed pizza delivery...
  • by SABME (524360) on Friday September 07, 2007 @02:44PM (#20512089)
    I've seen a few comments from employers in this thread who bemoan the lack of experienced people in the job market.

    Whatever happened to hiring someone who was inexperienced, but still sharp, and developing that person? This is how I got my start in 1990: someone who had seen my work took a chance that I'd do a good job supporting the company's LAN, even though I lacked experience, and hired me. With the exception of a few months during the bust years of 2001 and 2002, I've been working in the field ever since (in a variety of different positions, most recently QA testing).

    One thing I noticed around the turn of the century was that there weren't any 20-somethings at work anymore. At age 34, I was far and away the youngest person at work. Where will the next generation of experienced old hands come from if not from within? At some point, all the experienced people will be too old to work any more, and then what will we do? The worst part of outsourcing is that we're outsourcing not just today's jobs, but the future of our talent pool.

    ((Let me cynically answer my first question ("Whatever happened to hiring ..."): regular corporate layoffs. To most managers, we grunts are nothing more than numbers in the "Expenses" column of a spreadsheet.))
  • by jc42 (318812) on Friday September 07, 2007 @03:30PM (#20512725) Homepage Journal
    Similarly, salaries of IT professionals world-wide are projected to stagnate or possibly fall due to the large pool of qualified applicants in the market today.

    Hmmm ... In my experience, the pool of "qualified applicants" has fallen to almost zero.

    The explanation is well known to us software people. I remember back in the 1980s, when I ran across an ad for people with at least five years experience in a certain popular DB system. At the time, that DB system had been available from its vendor for almost 3 years.

    These, a different variant of this approach is being used more and more. I've registered with a number of the well-known online job sites, and I get a dozen or so job descriptions every day. A number of my friends do this, too. It's quite rare to see a job description that any of us is qualified for. We get the descriptions because some fraction of the keywords match words in our resumes. However, each description has at least one requirement that I don't have. It seems fairly clear that for most of these, the probability is close to zero that a person exists anywhere on the planet with experience that matches every requirement. There is usually a list of other "nice to have" things, but those don't really matter if you don't have the required experiences.

    We've tested a few of them that are sorta close by replying, with a more up-to-date resume, but typically there's no response at all. When we get a response, it's usually that we aren't qualified (but they'll keep our resumes in their DB in case an appropriate job comes up).

    I have talked to a few HR people, to, of course, and they agree the approach is to write the job requirements to that nobody will actually be qualified. This gives them two options: One is that, if after a phone call they like you, they can say that they'll consider you although you're not qualified, but they may have trouble persuading their managers to pay you the stated rate due your lack of qualifications. So the intent is downward pressure on pay scales, because everyone is now "unqualified".

    Alternatively, of course, this is done so that they can report that they couldn't find anyone in the country (the US in my case) that is qualified, so they'll just have to outsource the job. Or maybe look for a H1-B immigrant to hire as a trainee at a much lower salary. Or, of course, a student trainee or intern that can be hired for much less than even the immigrants.

    Actually, I did have a 2-year job a few years ago, and interestingly it was a project for a UK firm that had outsourced the task to an American software company. But I got this job because I knew several of the people who owned the company. The team did include several H1-B people (and a couple of Canadians ;-). My part of the task was a single requirement that they literally couldn't find anywhere else in the world. I was a bit puzzled by that, because it was actually just a tricky bit of programming of some abstract math and pattern matching (in C), but I didn't quibble.

    Anyway, it doesn't seem like "globalization" is the whole explanation here. Rather, IT employees have learned how to classify everyone, even the most experienced, as unqualified for any current job. So you accept an entry-level wage, or you are dismissed as unqualified.

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