Chinese Military Hacked Into Pentagon 405
iFrated informs us of a successful penetration of US Defense Department computers by the Chinese military last June. From the article: "The Pentagon acknowledged shutting down part of a computer system serving the office of Robert Gates, defense secretary, but declined to say who it believed was behind the attack. Current and former officials have told the Financial Times an internal investigation has revealed that the incursion came from the [Chinese] People's Liberation Army. One senior US official said the Pentagon had pinpointed the exact origins of the attack. Another person familiar with the event said there was a 'very high level of confidence... trending towards total certainty' that the PLA was responsible." The PLA is also accused of breaking into German government computers, including a network in the office of the Chancellor.
Sanctions (Score:3, Insightful)
It will be interesting to see just what form the response to these sorts of attacks will take. Hard-liners will want old school military war games and confrontation, but I suspect steps like US and EU invalidation of Chinese purchased US and EU debt and economic sanctions will be far more effective.
Carte Blanche (Score:4, Insightful)
Nothing. Quite frankly China has tested the limits of both the US and UN for years, and neither the Clinton nor Bush administrations were willing or capable of doing anything. With problems in Iran, Syria, North Korea, oh and those two wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the US does not have the capability to swat a fly elsewhere, let alone threaten the military might of China.
China knows they can get away with such actions, so they will. If you don't believe me, look up recent actions regarding Taiwan, Tibet and East Timor, amongst other things. China also does nothing to combat the millions of dollars in lost US revenue from stolen IP, yet we give them favored trading partner status, making our trade deficit worse.
Re:Sanctions (Score:3, Insightful)
Additionally, there seems to be enough doubt as to provide "plausible" deniability, or it could just be attributed to "...someone's unilateral wet dream" (quoted from Enemy of the State). Seems too small to make a big deal out of, to this observer at any rate; who knows what they're not telling us...
Unclassified (Score:3, Insightful)
questions, assumptions (Score:4, Insightful)
* were they secured computers? You know, the ones networked via fiber in concrete-filled conduits so that the physical layer can't be compromised?
* is this even a new thing?
Assumptions:
Is everyone so sure that the US hasn't ALREADY hacked the Chinese computers?
Before everyone gets their panties in an uproar, some context would be nice.
It cuts both ways (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Don't worry... (Score:1, Insightful)
Why? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:It cuts both ways (Score:5, Insightful)
Highly Armed Nincompoops (Score:3, Insightful)
They're not just too incompetent to defend their systems (I'm sure the US penetrates the Chinese, too). But they're too dumb to refrain from penetrating each other, or just not get caught.
These are the kinds of "brinksmanships" that keep us all close to the edge of destroying each other ("ourselves"). The kinds of stupid, complicated slap-happiness that gets out of hand. And gets into killing.
Re:Wire up the IDS (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Sanctions (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem: if the Chinese military can get enough control over Pentagon computers, then it doesn't really matter what their own hardware capabilities are, they'll be able to deploy some US military hardware for their own objectives.
Re:Sanctions (Score:3, Insightful)
In the later case, it would be very likely that other countries would come to their aid if more then a minority of citizens wanted the democracy back. It creates a sense of stability even among chaos if it is present. If we chucked all that out the window and just went for securing the countries, it would be done by now.
Re:Wire up the IDS (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, if you dont see any difference, I expect to see you in the enlistment line first thing tomorrow morning. And dont make up some BS that youve 'already served' because it will be a lie. NO SINGLE PERSON who has been in war, will make the suggestion to simply to go to war over a PC break-in.
And if you STILL dont see any difference, try the following links; http://theheretik.typepad.com/the_heretik/images/c hild_of_war_life_in_death_053005.jpg [typepad.com]
http://www.videos1.informationclearinghouse.info/i mages/seven.jpg [informatio...house.info]
Those that modded this 'insightful' I would expect will be in the front of that enlistment line tomorrow, right ahead of you.
Does anybody actually believe (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Sanctions (Score:4, Insightful)
That's SO far from the truth that I don't know whether you're lying or incredibly deceived. The US army is at breaking point, and the situation is spiraling out of control in both occupations.
There's no such thing as a democracy under military occupation. The UN even says so.
That statement carries the absurd assumption that some people don't want democracy. EVERYONE wants democracy, apart from the small group of people who currently have control, of course. But the majority of the population will ALWAYS support democracy AND self-determination.
You're obviously under the false impression that our aim there is to create a beautiful, blossoming democracy! It's not. It's to grab resources and set up military bases. Democracy is a word that the ruling class throw around. It's meaning in this context is, "A group of individuals of considerable power who will do our bidding". And they can't even get THAT right. But the main goal is to secure Afghanistan and Iraq, and is slipping further away from us each day.
US Military could benefit (Score:5, Insightful)
- Making an advanced US capability seem flaky or ineffective
- Making a flaky or undeveloped US capability seem advanced and devastating
- Sending the Chinese into fruitless directions in R&D, costing them billions
- Trick the Cninese into types of action that could yield up some useful intel for the US
The opportunities are endless.It doesn't make any sence... (Score:5, Insightful)
(1) That the Pentagon doesn't have a Windows box connected to the Internet with a public IP address.
(2) That the 'hackers' are smart-enough to actually hack into the Pentagon (ergo they are not script-kiddies).
Wouldn't these hackers be smart enough to originate these attacks from some-other hacked network via an anonymous proxy? (And then delete any logs that still might point to their activities.)
At the very least I would expect a simple IP spoofing to have taken place.
This was too easy, something is up.
Re:Carte Blanche (Score:5, Insightful)
What exactly do you propose the U.S. do? The Chinese are holding such huge U.S dollar reserves they could ruin the U.S. economy just by dumping them, though they would probably cause a global economic collapse and suffer as much as everyone else if they did.
The U.S. has transfered so much capital and IP to China, and we are so dependent on the steady stream of container shipping from China you pretty much have to look the other way at anything short of open warfare.
Besides which China is a Republican businessman's fantasy come true. It has a vast pool of dirt cheap labor, no labor unions, almost no business regulation, no environmental controls, and workers either keep their mouths shut or they are harshly dealt with by the state. They have one party authoritarian rule and as long as that one party is pro business, which they have been for the last couple decades, they are a Republican's wet dream. Why do you think so many big western corporations are rushing to China lock, stock and barrel. Liberal democracies sucks for business, you have to pay people more than a subsistence wage, you can't kill 4000 a year in coal mines like you can in China, you can't lock workers up if they bitch....
The new Fascist China is pure heaven for Republicans, so their is almost nothing China is going to do they are going to have a problem with including this. Most western businessman and politicians are way more fixated on kissing Chinese ass these days than they are starting some kind of confrontation with them.
Besides which when it comes to network security if you are stupid enough to put anything important on the Internet, and you can't keep it secure you kind of deserve what you get, doesn't really matter where the attack comes from.
Re:Ummm... (Score:5, Insightful)
Espionage is one of the oldest tools of civilization. Heck, even allies spy on each other. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the Brits were doing the same things to the US.
Espionage, in fact, can be a very good thing for peace. The Soviets and the Americans knew so much about each others' military capacity and arsenals that neither side dreamed of an open, direct conflict. A lack of knowledge of the opposing side's capacity would have been infinitely more dangerous.
Re:Does anybody actually believe (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree. Yet another anti-china story, in a long list of anti-china stories over the past few weeks, ever since the chinese threatened to call in the US debt when the US demanded the chinese revaluate the Yuan. More American propaganda being fed to the people, to make sure that China is slowly moved to the "axis of evil" category.
Re:Highly Armed Nincompoops (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes. America makes me very nervous. Oh, isn't that what you meant?
China has around 200 nuclear weapons, compared to the US's 5000+.
Re:It doesn't make any sence... (Score:5, Insightful)
Are there some super-smart people in the military? Of course. Are there incompetant ones in positions of power as well? I don't know. Let's ask the Commander in Chief
Re:It doesn't make any sence... (Score:3, Insightful)
He eventually traced their attacks to a Chinese IP, after they hopped numerous machines in the process. He turned his findings over to the CIA, and in the end got what he deserved; fired, for violating and hacking the Chinese - despite the "We'll ignore how you got this information if you just give it to us" from the CIA.
The point is I'd hope we could figure out who did it.I would hope the computer experts at the Pentagon knew a bit more about hacking/counter hacking than you, and have some idea how to trace the hacking to the root of the problem. The point is that you're assuming they didn't have to do 'work' to get the information. The article doesn't state what they did, but I imagine the Chinese and US both used methods of which the actual implementations are beyond most people on slashdot.
Of course this forgets the prime rule that most people who post on the internet have a PhD in the subject they comment on.
Re:Sanctions (Score:5, Insightful)
What's the big deal? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why? (Score:3, Insightful)
There's two problems with trying to use their cash to screw over the US. The first is that what good is money if you can't spend it? What they hold, by and large, is promissory notes and bonds from the government. If the US government wishes, it can simply refuse to honour those. Doing so would have severe consequences as currently US treasury securities are thought of as some of, if not the, most secure in the world but they have the power to do that. All of a sudden that wealth is just non-existent, unspendable, especially if the US's allies play ball.
The second, and more important, is that China's economy is totally dependant on its continued growth and that, indeed even being able to sustain where it is now, it totally dependant on the US as a customer. Screw up the US economy, people will go in to recession mode which means less spending, especially on non-essentials which is most of the Chinese market. They stop spending, your economy starts shrinking, there's big problems, possibly even civil unrest or revolution. To destabilize the economy of their biggest customer could, literally, be suicidal for their government.
As such we have a somewhat stable situation. Neither country may see eye to eye and both want to use the other for their own gain, but neither is going to fuck over the other one just to be spiteful, as it would fuck them over as well.
It is not the situation that so many people online like to portray of the Chinese being able to just sink America any time they want and have no repercussions.
Re:Sanctions (Score:4, Insightful)
Bullshit, do you really think we have not done the exact same thing to their networks? Besides, this is not a movie; most military systems (and all if they felt the need) are on a private intranet. While this can be hacked into in theory, if that becomes an issue, we can simply take the stuff offline. Tanks don't need Wi-Fi uplinks to kill people.
And besides, this is moot. China does not have to resort to high-tech fantasy tricks to beat us. China has a GDP of 7 trillion dollars, while the US has one of 12 trillion. Their economy is growing at 10% per year, ours grows at 3%. Do the math, in a decade or so, even if Chinese have one 5th the per capita income of the US, they will have a larger GDP.
With a larger GDP, they will be able to outspend us militarily, without causing any strain on their economy. In the face of such a demographic certainty, the worst thing we can do is to act aggressive and provoke China into an arms race. Unlike the Soviet Union, they could actually win one.
Re:Carte Blanche (Score:2, Insightful)
But seriously, how many chineese can tell the difference between a british and an irishman?
Or a frenchman and a german?
Nationality doesnt mean much, and really it shouldnt.
But back on the topic....the US, China and every other nation has services that spy on other countries.
Im sure the US has compromised some Chineese systems but they would never reveal that.
I would also assume that the Chineese still have access to other systems, maybe in multiple other departments of the gov.
Re:Sanctions (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh yea, just so you know, most of the 6 billion people on this earth don't want to live in USA.
Re:Sanctions (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Cut the crap (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Sanctions (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Unacceptable (Score:4, Insightful)
The line wasn't "the rich are richer," as you implied but rather "get richer" as in "increase wealth relative to the rest of society." It is well known that of the destabilizing influence large economic gaps have on societies. The creation of a permanent underclass is not conductive to democracies, nor productive economies. For instance, it's well known that the wealthy have better access to the legal system through being able to afford more and better lawyers, while the poor often have no access to legal council in civil settings, and inadequate council in criminal settings.
It's relative wealth, not absolute wealth that matters to the fabric of a society. Attempting to place emphasis on absolute wealth, while ignoring the very real effects of large relative wealth disparity is a well known trick of the wealthy to attempt distract the majority poor into supporting that are not in their economic self-interest.
You really should learn some socioeconomics.
Re:Sanctions (Score:2, Insightful)
Firstly, have a quick think about things. People like being in control of their life, right? No-one wants to be a slave or anything like that, do they? Show me ONE society on Earth that actually WANTS to be enslaved, as individuals. If you look at the history of imperialism, it's also the history of national liberation movements. Examples are aplenty, but a couple are: Ireland, India, even the fucking US of A. This translates naturally from the national level to the personal level. People also want to have a say in how society is run. To suggest otherwise - to suggest that people don't want a say in how the society they live in operates - is absolutely absurd. It's so clearly against human nature that I am astonished that I hear it so often - but then I remember the racist propaganda we're drowning in, and I understand a little
Seriously, all people want a say in how society is run. If you don't believe me, ask people. Travel and ask people. You'll be pleasantly surprised.
As for the bit about stability, it all depends on your perspective. I think people are willing to endure some turbulence in the name of achieving real democracy.
Yes, these are different forms of capitalism: State Capitalism [wikipedia.org], and they are typically even worse than Western capitalist formations in terms of democracy. It's important to remember that in Western countries, people are falling over themselves at this very moment to support anti-democratic measures such as the Patriot Act and the rest of the 'war on terror', and all in the name of stability, prosperity, security, etc. Unfortunately, with the media being almost exclusively corporate-controlled, it's easy to get the population to rally behind some very stupid and dangerous stuff.
Re:Sanctions (Score:3, Insightful)
That is completely absurd. In the US conservatives are generally not after democracy. They want the rest of the country to live under rules they choose. That is not self-determination.
Most people's views on government is tied strongly to their beliefs and values which is tied to their religion. Democracy is not a common theme in world religions.
Re:Sanctions (Score:3, Insightful)
Not a problem. Really. Not a Problem
Re:Sanctions (Score:2, Insightful)
I believe this to be true. You'll piss off "terrorist" orgs. as well.
Technically, what you need to say here is to "repress" them. I believe there to be a difference between the two.
The problem with the 21st century and the "rise of terrorism" (so to speak) is that one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. But I think the appropriate phrase here is "two wrongs do not make a right."
If you believe it's just the Bush administration that's created these problems, then you're the one who needs to stop believing the "popular press".
Re:Sanctions (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Sanctions (Score:3, Insightful)
Think of it this way substance farmers increase GDP but they do little to aid military spending.