iFrated informs us of a successful penetration of US Defense Department computers by the Chinese military last June. From the article: "The Pentagon acknowledged shutting down part of a computer system serving the office of Robert Gates, defense secretary, but declined to say who it believed was behind the attack. Current and former officials have told the Financial Times an internal investigation has revealed that the incursion came from the [Chinese] People's Liberation Army. One senior US official said the Pentagon had pinpointed the exact origins of the attack. Another person familiar with the event said there was a 'very high level of confidence... trending towards total certainty' that the PLA was responsible." The PLA is also accused of breaking into German government computers, including a network in the office of the Chancellor.
Here's the deal.... While I acknowledge that there is a potential risk of engagement (and the big Navy folks desperately want this possibility to be the case), I have a tough time thinking that China will allow the PLA to escalate this much given the financial commitments that Chinese industry is trying to maintain and expand with the West..... especially prior to the Olympics. That said, I expect more "defense" related activity in the guise of IT based attacks and probes from the PLA rather than traditional military actions in the future.
It will be interesting to see just what form the response to these sorts of attacks will take. Hard-liners will want old school military war games and confrontation, but I suspect steps like US and EU invalidation of Chinese purchased US and EU debt and economic sanctions will be far more effective.
I don't really see anything coming out of this. It sounds more like a pissing contest to me than anything else, and I'd be more concerned about their other capabilities (e.g. nuclear warheads, lasers that can shoot down satellites ala Cardinal of the Kremlin, Chinese economy) than how well they can hack into some bigwigs computer. Additionally, there seems to be enough doubt as to provide "plausible" deniability, or it could just be attributed to "...someone's unilateral wet dream" (quoted from Enemy of the
I don't really see anything coming out of this. It sounds more like a pissing contest to me than anything else, and I'd be more concerned about their other capabilities (e.g. nuclear warheads, lasers that can shoot down satellites ala Cardinal of the Kremlin, Chinese economy) than how well they can hack into some bigwigs computer.
The problem: if the Chinese military can get enough control over Pentagon computers, then it doesn't really matter what their own hardware capabilities are, they'll be able to deploy some US military hardware for their own objectives.
Exactly. China doesn't want war, but they want desperately to close the military and technology gap. Stealing the technology instead of developing it themselves is vastly cheaper, quicker and easier. The are not the only country friendly or not who engages in corporate and military espionage against the US. ANd don't think the US isn't spying on the other countries either.
"The problem: if the Chinese military can get enough control over Pentagon computers, then it doesn't really matter what their own hardware capabilities are, they'll be able to deploy some US military hardware for their own objectives."
Bullshit, do you really think we have not done the exact same thing to their networks? Besides, this is not a movie; most military systems (and all if they felt the need) are on a private intranet. While this can be hacked into in theory, if that becomes an issue, we can simply take the stuff offline. Tanks don't need Wi-Fi uplinks to kill people.
And besides, this is moot. China does not have to resort to high-tech fantasy tricks to beat us. China has a GDP of 7 trillion dollars, while the US has one of 12 trillion. Their economy is growing at 10% per year, ours grows at 3%. Do the math, in a decade or so, even if Chinese have one 5th the per capita income of the US, they will have a larger GDP.
With a larger GDP, they will be able to outspend us militarily, without causing any strain on their economy. In the face of such a demographic certainty, the worst thing we can do is to act aggressive and provoke China into an arms race. Unlike the Soviet Union, they could actually win one.
And besides, this is moot. China does not have to resort to high-tech fantasy tricks to beat us. China has a GDP of 7 trillion dollars, while the US has one of 12 trillion. Their economy is growing at 10% per year, ours grows at 3%. Do the math, in a decade or so, even if Chinese have one 5th the per capita income of the US, they will have a larger GDP.
To use your word, "Bullshit". While their GDP might match ours, their per captia GDP barely beats out the Philippines and lies slightly under the vast military power of the Republic of the Congo. Of course their GDP is huge, they have billions of people. The problem is, they have billions of people. GDP by itself is a useless metric.
China has a GDP of 7 trillion dollars, while the US has one of 12 trillion.
How does this idiocy get modded up, when even a cursory examination [worldbank.org] (warning:.pdf) shows that China has a GDP of 2.6B, compared to 2.9 for Germany, 4.3 for Japan, and 13 for the U.S.
With a larger GDP, they will be able to outspend us militarily, without causing any strain on their economy.
We spend [globalsecurity.org] about $466B, the rest of the world combined spends about $500B, and China $65B. Granted, China's PPP means they get more stuff for their $65B, but they still spend far, far less than we do.
The parent post is so wrong that it should be modded down.
Look, America has shifted a lot of manufacturing to China. They have a trillion dollars of ours. But so what? At this time, the chinese leadership can easily attack us, and simply bit the bullet WRT to the deficit. If they were really concerned about the deficit, they would be spending a lot of that money on cleaners for coal plants, bigger nuclear plants, equipment for cleaning up their pollution. But they are not spending 1 penny on it. Instead, they are trying to get us to GIVE them the know-how. They ar
That's not as clear cut as you might think. Lots of people make the mistake of applying the kind of economics that happens on a personal scale to nations. Doesn't really work that way. What we have with China is sort of an economic MAD situation. It isn't a case of them holding the stick, it is a case of them being able to fuck up our economy, and destroying theirs in the process. There's two problems with trying to use their cash to screw over the US. The first is that what good is money if you can't spend
We could secure both Afghanistan or Iraq. The problem is, that to do it effectivly, we don't get the governments we want put in place. We end up with more of the same to no end. The idea behind putting a democracy into the mix is two fold. One, it lets the people have some say in how their countries go, and two, it makes it extremely obvious when a totalitarian group like th Taliban takes over and imposes a bunch of restrictions. In the later case, it would be very likely that other countries would come to t
That's SO far from the truth that I don't know whether you're lying or incredibly deceived. The US army is at breaking point, and the situation is spiraling out of control in both occupations.
The problem is, that to do it effectivly, we don't get the governments we want put in place. We end up with more of the same to no end.
There's no such thing as a democracy under military occupation. The UN even says so.
In the later case, it would be very likely that other countries would come to their aid if more then a minority of citizens wanted the democracy back.
That statement carries the absurd assumption that some people don't want democracy. EVERYONE wants democracy, apart from the small group of people who currently have control, of course. But the majority of the population will ALWAYS support democracy AND self-determination.
If we chucked all that out the window and just went for securing the countries, it would be done by now.
You're obviously under the false impression that our aim there is to create a beautiful, blossoming democracy! It's not. It's to grab resources and set up military bases. Democracy is a word that the ruling class throw around. It's meaning in this context is, "A group of individuals of considerable power who will do our bidding". And they can't even get THAT right. But the main goal is to secure Afghanistan and Iraq, and is slipping further away from us each day.
EVERYONE wants democracy, apart from the small group of people who currently have control, of course.
Can you back that up? I doubt it, because its one of the things that comes from the USA, that democracy is good and pure and everyone wants it. Like everyone wants to live in the USA.
Oh yea, just so you know, most of the 6 billion people on this earth don't want to live in USA.
That statement carries the absurd assumption that some people don't want democracy. EVERYONE wants democracy, apart from the small group of people who currently have control, of course. But the majority of the population will ALWAYS support democracy AND self-determination.
World history is full of dictatorships that rose to power with popular support. And I'm not even talking about bait-and-switch dictatorships (ala communism). To say a majority always wants democracy is absurd. People always want security. They always want a food and shelter. They always want "respect," whatever that means to them. That democracy isn't on the list.
Nothing. Quite frankly China has tested the limits of both the US and UN for years, and neither the Clinton nor Bush administrations were willing or capable of doing anything. With problems in Iran, Syria, North Korea, oh and those two wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the US does not have the capability to swat a fly elsewhere, let alone threaten the military might of China.
China knows they can get away with such actions, so they will. If you don't believe me, look up recent actions regarding Taiwan, Tibet and East Timor, amongst other things. China also does nothing to combat the millions of dollars in lost US revenue from stolen IP, yet we give them favored trading partner status, making our trade deficit worse.
I looked at a carton of General Tso's chicken at the supermarket the other day. With all the carbohydrates in it, it should probably be classified as a bio weapon.
That's because rice in Hong Kong is cooked differently. Chinese in that neighborhood like soft rice, it is made by pouring water into a pot of raw rice, filling the water level to about 3/4 inch above the surface of rice and slowly cooked until all water evaporates.
Westerners like rice more chewy, so for the same rice, it is put into a big pot of hot water and the rice is cooked like sphagetti.
You know, America has tested Chinas resolve for years by sending hackers into its systems, yet China isn't willing or capable to do anything. With hundreds of American military bases around the world and a mass of troops in Japan, Taiwan and the rest of the Pacific, they do not have the capability to move an inch outside their borders, let alone threaten the military might of America.
I've seen first-hand some of the incredible technology and training we had in the military, but neither China nor the US really wants a piece of each other. That is a conflict that only ends badly pretty much for everyone.
"they do not have the capability to move an inch outside their borders"
Regardless of who is in power China it has had a "foreign policy" that for 2000yrs has shown little (if any) interest in expanding China's borders.
US generals have all read and still use Sun Tzu's "art of war", I suggest you read the bit entitled "on the use of spies" before you pick a fight with the guys who turned strategic "games" into an artform.
Plant a few honeypot boxen around the Pentagon network, and load them up with tasty disinformation, aiming for outcomes like:
* Making an advanced US capability seem flaky or ineffective
* Making a flaky or undeveloped US capability seem advanced and devastating
* Sending the Chinese into fruitless directions in R&D, costing them billions
* Trick the Cninese into types of action that could yield up some useful intel for the US
The opportunities are endless.
Operation GW commenced January 20th 2001 and has successfully misled the world into thinking we are idiots. We have made it appear we make vast amounts of wealth disappear through military industrial graft and sunk our monetary values 40% relative to other western powers. We've gotten involved in a war we knew we couldn't leave gracefully, and shown corruption at every level. We have given the appearance of crushing our education system with theology, and appeared to have revised the public education curriculum to cater to the dumbest common denominator. We have lulled the entire world into thinking we are a country of backwards mouth breathers.As soon as we devalue our currency to 20% relative value and ensure 99% of all top ivy league school student are foreign we will truly be in a position to surprise the world without awesome cunning and leap forth and conquer the world.
"Quite frankly China has tested the limits of both the US and UN for years, and neither the Clinton nor Bush administrations were willing or capable of doing anything."
What exactly do you propose the U.S. do? The Chinese are holding such huge U.S dollar reserves they could ruin the U.S. economy just by dumping them, though they would probably cause a global economic collapse and suffer as much as everyone else if they did.
The U.S. has transfered so much capital and IP to China, and we are so dependent on the steady stream of container shipping from China you pretty much have to look the other way at anything short of open warfare.
Besides which China is a Republican businessman's fantasy come true. It has a vast pool of dirt cheap labor, no labor unions, almost no business regulation, no environmental controls, and workers either keep their mouths shut or they are harshly dealt with by the state. They have one party authoritarian rule and as long as that one party is pro business, which they have been for the last couple decades, they are a Republican's wet dream. Why do you think so many big western corporations are rushing to China lock, stock and barrel. Liberal democracies sucks for business, you have to pay people more than a subsistence wage, you can't kill 4000 a year in coal mines like you can in China, you can't lock workers up if they bitch....
The new Fascist China is pure heaven for Republicans, so their is almost nothing China is going to do they are going to have a problem with including this. Most western businessman and politicians are way more fixated on kissing Chinese ass these days than they are starting some kind of confrontation with them.
Besides which when it comes to network security if you are stupid enough to put anything important on the Internet, and you can't keep it secure you kind of deserve what you get, doesn't really matter where the attack comes from.
I know this is gonna sound like a troll to some, but it isn't, imo. But with Microsoft's shared source program with governments (China's included) what if they found an exploit and and simply didn't tell Microsoft, but instead used it to their advantage. Could shared source create problems such as this? I know the military uses Windows for most of its computers (at least when I got out last year). Not sure about the ones attacked, however. Just some musings from me.
Ok, I use Linux, but that doesn't make a lot of sense...
Why is Windows Shared Source more vulnerable to this type of attack than Linux and other Open Source things?
Simply put, With thousands of eyes that have many varying goals, any security vulnerability in an "open" sourced product would be reported to the correct people many times by many different users. Closed source projects on the other hand have very specific sets of eyes on them, with very specific goals. If a vulnerability was found it would be less likely to be reported.
DoD unclass networks aren't any more secure than your standard corporate ones. Obviously, it's not good if the Chinese (or anyone) gain unauthorized access to them. But hacking something like JWICS or even SIPRnet would be much more disturbing.
Questions: * were they secured computers? You know, the ones networked via fiber in concrete-filled conduits so that the physical layer can't be compromised? * is this even a new thing?
Assumptions: Is everyone so sure that the US hasn't ALREADY hacked the Chinese computers?
Before everyone gets their panties in an uproar, some context would be nice.
This won't escalate into anything. While its true it could be seen as an act of war, we in the U.S. are not going to do anything that might jeopardize our supply of Happy Meal toys.
Is anyone else nervous that these clowns are armed to the teeth, with enough firepower to destroy the world and make the rubble bounce several times?
They're not just too incompetent to defend their systems (I'm sure the US penetrates the Chinese, too). But they're too dumb to refrain from penetrating each other, or just not get caught.
These are the kinds of "brinksmanships" that keep us all close to the edge of destroying each other ("ourselves"). The kinds of stupid, complicated slap-happiness that gets out of hand. And gets into killing.
Come on....the Chinese military is capable of hacking Robert Gates' office, yet is completely incapable of obscuring their tracks? You really believe that? This is another set up situation - an insider trying to scuttle a deal, or to embarrass someone, or to effect policy in some minor way, or just to get you going. I have no doubt the office was hacked - why admit something that makes you look so incompetent, but are we really to believe that they tracked down the ACTUAL culprits? Let's ask to see the evidence, for once - they never seem to have any of that these days.
I agree. Yet another anti-china story, in a long list of anti-china stories over the past few weeks, ever since the chinese threatened to call in the US debt when the US demanded the chinese revaluate the Yuan. More American propaganda being fed to the people, to make sure that China is slowly moved to the "axis of evil" category.
And if we stopped trading with them, who exactly would that hurt? The Communist party leaders will be rich anyway, using at least the black market to procure US goods. The people however, will be stripped of their prosperity.
Besides, if the US never traded with autocracies, there would never have been a US in the first place.
Everyone knows the password is "Joshua"... Just stick to the Chess simulation when you get inside the DoD servers or you could be absconded by the FBI in an unmarked panel van.
(1) That the Pentagon doesn't have a Windows box connected to the Internet with a public IP address. (2) That the 'hackers' are smart-enough to actually hack into the Pentagon (ergo they are not script-kiddies).
Wouldn't these hackers be smart enough to originate these attacks from some-other hacked network via an anonymous proxy? (And then delete any logs that still might point to their activities.)
At the very least I would expect a simple IP spoofing to have taken place.
I've worked with military networks. No, not everything that ends in.mil is classified. Yes, they also run windows boxes. No, it doesn't require special skill to hack into that kind of network. It's very similar to breaching any ol' corporate network. Granted, the people I worked with were fairly paranoid and quite up to speed on proper security procedures. But this crack isn't the same as getting access to classified hardware. Call me again when that happens. In the meantime - congrats, they probably found
(1) That the Pentagon doesn't have a Windows box connected to the Internet with a public IP address.
Why would you make such an almost certainly erroneous assumption? The U.S. Military uses Micro$hit, as do most (all?) fortune 500 companies. There are an astounding number of incompetant "sysadmins" who think that an M$ certification is an indication that they are computer gurus. There is a reason why there is a joke about Military Intelligence being an oxymoron.
Are there some super-smart people in the military? Of course. Are there incompetant ones in positions of power as well? I don't know. Let's ask the Commander in Chief... Oh wait... I do know;-)
I recall reading a story about attacks on one of the research labs (Los Alamos, I think). Someone noticed something was going on, the attacks were incredibly well disciplined, like a good burglar - get in, get what you can grab quickly, and get out. They didn't spend too much time on anyone thing, they just downloaded anything they could grab and got out, to repeat some other time (~2am local time) He eventually traced their attacks to a Chinese IP, after they hopped numerous machines in the process. He turn
74 posts and no jokes yet about the Pentagon having a chink in their armor? I'm impressed. Honestly, I'm not sure what's scarier, this or all the cheap crap on the shelves at Wal-Mart.
How many Americans are in prison for cracking in to the pentagon? The only difference here is that rather than a group of crackers with no political affiliation, this group of crackers is part of a foreign military. Who honestly believes that the US (ala CIA and NSA) isn't doing the same to some other country (e.g. Russia, North Korea, China) right now?
The difference is that the NSA has a back door into all major operating systems. They don't need to crack in.
This sort of issue could be fixed if the Pentagon switched from using windows based systems to using SELinux systems with mandatory smart card access.
Remember, there are 2 levels of privilege above administrator in windows, and there are 3 backdoor keys into windows. Microsoft's, the NSA's and who knows who has the third?
Well, if you dont see any difference, I expect to see you in the enlistment line first thing tomorrow morning. And dont make up some BS that youve 'already served' because it will be a lie. NO SINGLE PERSON who has been in war, will make the suggestion to simply to go to war over a PC break-in.
Because no country has ever tried spying before in all of history.
Life would have been so much better if any spying attempt by the USSR/USA on the USA/USSR had resulted in the nukes being launched. Would have made the cold war a lot shorter anyway...
I can see it now. Some wack-job malcontent who would otherwise have loaded up a truck with explosives and taken out half a federal building and its daycare centre will instead penetrate the network of a western company in China. From there, he will penetrate a Chinese low-security network, and launch an attack against the toilet paper inventory system at the Pentagon. This will trigger the IDS, and the next thing we know the United States of America launches a first-strike against the Henan branch of the People's Yak Testicle Grading Board because that's who the attacking IP address belongs to. China retaliates. The U.S.A. retaliates against the retaliation.
Still look like a good idea?
(And for fuck's sake, nobody mod this funny. Okay, the People's Yak Testicle Grading board is hilarious, but the thought of *any* automated system being hooked up to launch controls is the stuff of nightmares... especially when there's no real way to tell if the "attack" is from your opponent or someone else who wants to pin the blame on them. Someone massing troops on the border or lobbing nukes your way? Worth a military escalation. Someone probing your network? Not so much.)
People die in real wars. And knocking out electronics sounds great, but if you fight a war with a country that owns the bears' share of your stock, and to whom you are indebted for billions each year, and which provides a lucrative potential market for your industry, that may not be good for the economy that keeps the war machine going. Why do you think America is on good terms with Communist China--even bringing them into the WTO--while we have an embargo on Communist Cuba? Because China doesn't execute peo
I'm agreeing with most of what you say, but why would anybody be surprised that China is using its hackers to bust in to foreign networks. Everyone, I'm confident does it, including the US trying to break into Chinese state networks.
Espionage is one of the oldest tools of civilization. Heck, even allies spy on each other. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the Brits were doing the same things to the US.
Espionage, in fact, can be a very good thing for peace. The Soviets and the Americans knew so much about each others' military capacity and arsenals that neither side dreamed of an open, direct conflict. A lack of knowledge of the opposing side's capacity would have been infinitely more dangerous.
and the rich get richer while the poor get poorer.
This has been the case since the first man beat up his neighbor and forced him to become his slave. This rich will ALWAYS be richer, but the poor increase their standard of living. Today being "poor" in the West means having a small tv, and a second hand car, a used fridge and electricity, and a menial job. 200 years ago it meant starvation, and it still does in some places. Your point is?
The point was apparently completely missed by you.
The line wasn't "the rich are richer," as you implied but rather "get richer" as in "increase wealth relative to the rest of society." It is well known that of the destabilizing influence large economic gaps have on societies. The creation of a permanent underclass is not conductive to democracies, nor productive economies. For instance, it's well known that the wealthy have better access to the legal system through being able to afford more and better lawyers, while the poor often have no access to legal council in civil settings, and inadequate council in criminal settings.
It's relative wealth, not absolute wealth that matters to the fabric of a society. Attempting to place emphasis on absolute wealth, while ignoring the very real effects of large relative wealth disparity is a well known trick of the wealthy to attempt distract the majority poor into supporting that are not in their economic self-interest.
Sanctions (Score:3, Insightful)
It will be interesting to see just what form the response to these sorts of attacks will take. Hard-liners will want old school military war games and confrontation, but I suspect steps like US and EU invalidation of Chinese purchased US and EU debt and economic sanctions will be far more effective.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Additionally, there seems to be enough doubt as to provide "plausible" deniability, or it could just be attributed to "...someone's unilateral wet dream" (quoted from Enemy of the
Re:Sanctions (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem: if the Chinese military can get enough control over Pentagon computers, then it doesn't really matter what their own hardware capabilities are, they'll be able to deploy some US military hardware for their own objectives.
Parent
Re:Sanctions (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Sanctions (Score:4, Insightful)
Bullshit, do you really think we have not done the exact same thing to their networks? Besides, this is not a movie; most military systems (and all if they felt the need) are on a private intranet. While this can be hacked into in theory, if that becomes an issue, we can simply take the stuff offline. Tanks don't need Wi-Fi uplinks to kill people.
And besides, this is moot. China does not have to resort to high-tech fantasy tricks to beat us. China has a GDP of 7 trillion dollars, while the US has one of 12 trillion. Their economy is growing at 10% per year, ours grows at 3%. Do the math, in a decade or so, even if Chinese have one 5th the per capita income of the US, they will have a larger GDP.
With a larger GDP, they will be able to outspend us militarily, without causing any strain on their economy. In the face of such a demographic certainty, the worst thing we can do is to act aggressive and provoke China into an arms race. Unlike the Soviet Union, they could actually win one.
Parent
Re:Sanctions (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Sanctions (Score:4, Informative)
How does this idiocy get modded up, when even a cursory examination [worldbank.org] (warning: .pdf) shows that China has a GDP of 2.6B, compared to 2.9 for Germany, 4.3 for Japan, and 13 for the U.S.
With a larger GDP, they will be able to outspend us militarily, without causing any strain on their economy.
We spend [globalsecurity.org] about $466B, the rest of the world combined spends about $500B, and China $65B. Granted, China's PPP means they get more stuff for their $65B, but they still spend far, far less than we do.
The parent post is so wrong that it should be modded down.
Parent
Why? (Score:3, Insightful)
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There's two problems with trying to use their cash to screw over the US. The first is that what good is money if you can't spend
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In the later case, it would be very likely that other countries would come to t
Re:Sanctions (Score:4, Insightful)
That's SO far from the truth that I don't know whether you're lying or incredibly deceived. The US army is at breaking point, and the situation is spiraling out of control in both occupations.
There's no such thing as a democracy under military occupation. The UN even says so.
That statement carries the absurd assumption that some people don't want democracy. EVERYONE wants democracy, apart from the small group of people who currently have control, of course. But the majority of the population will ALWAYS support democracy AND self-determination.
You're obviously under the false impression that our aim there is to create a beautiful, blossoming democracy! It's not. It's to grab resources and set up military bases. Democracy is a word that the ruling class throw around. It's meaning in this context is, "A group of individuals of considerable power who will do our bidding". And they can't even get THAT right. But the main goal is to secure Afghanistan and Iraq, and is slipping further away from us each day.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh yea, just so you know, most of the 6 billion people on this earth don't want to live in USA.
Re:Sanctions (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Carte Blanche (Score:4, Insightful)
Nothing. Quite frankly China has tested the limits of both the US and UN for years, and neither the Clinton nor Bush administrations were willing or capable of doing anything. With problems in Iran, Syria, North Korea, oh and those two wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the US does not have the capability to swat a fly elsewhere, let alone threaten the military might of China.
China knows they can get away with such actions, so they will. If you don't believe me, look up recent actions regarding Taiwan, Tibet and East Timor, amongst other things. China also does nothing to combat the millions of dollars in lost US revenue from stolen IP, yet we give them favored trading partner status, making our trade deficit worse.
Re:Carte Blanche (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Carte Blanche (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Carte Blanche (Score:4, Informative)
Westerners like rice more chewy, so for the same rice, it is put into a big pot of hot water and the rice is cooked like sphagetti.
Parent
It cuts both ways (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:It cuts both ways (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:It cuts both ways (Score:5, Interesting)
Regardless of who is in power China it has had a "foreign policy" that for 2000yrs has shown little (if any) interest in expanding China's borders.
US generals have all read and still use Sun Tzu's "art of war", I suggest you read the bit entitled "on the use of spies" before you pick a fight with the guys who turned strategic "games" into an artform.
Parent
US Military could benefit (Score:5, Insightful)
- Making an advanced US capability seem flaky or ineffective
- Making a flaky or undeveloped US capability seem advanced and devastating
- Sending the Chinese into fruitless directions in R&D, costing them billions
- Trick the Cninese into types of action that could yield up some useful intel for the US
The opportunities are endless.Parent
Re:US Military could benefit (Score:5, Funny)
* Making an advanced US capability seem flaky or ineffective
* Making a flaky or undeveloped US capability seem advanced and devastating
* Sending the Chinese into fruitless directions in R&D, costing them billions
* Trick the Cninese into types of action that could yield up some useful intel for the US
The opportunities are endless.
Operation GW commenced January 20th 2001 and has successfully misled the world into thinking we are idiots. We have made it appear we make vast amounts of wealth disappear through military industrial graft and sunk our monetary values 40% relative to other western powers. We've gotten involved in a war we knew we couldn't leave gracefully, and shown corruption at every level. We have given the appearance of crushing our education system with theology, and appeared to have revised the public education curriculum to cater to the dumbest common denominator. We have lulled the entire world into thinking we are a country of backwards mouth breathers.As soon as we devalue our currency to 20% relative value and ensure 99% of all top ivy league school student are foreign we will truly be in a position to surprise the world without awesome cunning and leap forth and conquer the world.
Parent
Re:Carte Blanche (Score:5, Insightful)
What exactly do you propose the U.S. do? The Chinese are holding such huge U.S dollar reserves they could ruin the U.S. economy just by dumping them, though they would probably cause a global economic collapse and suffer as much as everyone else if they did.
The U.S. has transfered so much capital and IP to China, and we are so dependent on the steady stream of container shipping from China you pretty much have to look the other way at anything short of open warfare.
Besides which China is a Republican businessman's fantasy come true. It has a vast pool of dirt cheap labor, no labor unions, almost no business regulation, no environmental controls, and workers either keep their mouths shut or they are harshly dealt with by the state. They have one party authoritarian rule and as long as that one party is pro business, which they have been for the last couple decades, they are a Republican's wet dream. Why do you think so many big western corporations are rushing to China lock, stock and barrel. Liberal democracies sucks for business, you have to pay people more than a subsistence wage, you can't kill 4000 a year in coal mines like you can in China, you can't lock workers up if they bitch....
The new Fascist China is pure heaven for Republicans, so their is almost nothing China is going to do they are going to have a problem with including this. Most western businessman and politicians are way more fixated on kissing Chinese ass these days than they are starting some kind of confrontation with them.
Besides which when it comes to network security if you are stupid enough to put anything important on the Internet, and you can't keep it secure you kind of deserve what you get, doesn't really matter where the attack comes from.
Parent
Windows to blame? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Ok, I use Linux, but that doesn't make a lot of sense...
Why is Windows Shared Source more vulnerable to this type of attack than Linux and other Open Source things?
Simply put,
With thousands of eyes that have many varying goals, any security vulnerability in an "open" sourced product would be reported to the correct people many times by many different users.
Closed source projects on the other hand have very specific sets of eyes on them, with very specific goals. If a vulnerability was found it would be less likely to be reported.
that's my take on it anyway.
Unclassified (Score:3, Insightful)
questions, assumptions (Score:4, Insightful)
* were they secured computers? You know, the ones networked via fiber in concrete-filled conduits so that the physical layer can't be compromised?
* is this even a new thing?
Assumptions:
Is everyone so sure that the US hasn't ALREADY hacked the Chinese computers?
Before everyone gets their panties in an uproar, some context would be nice.
Don't worry... (Score:5, Funny)
Highly Armed Nincompoops (Score:3, Insightful)
They're not just too incompetent to defend their systems (I'm sure the US penetrates the Chinese, too). But they're too dumb to refrain from penetrating each other, or just not get caught.
These are the kinds of "brinksmanships" that keep us all close to the edge of destroying each other ("ourselves"). The kinds of stupid, complicated slap-happiness that gets out of hand. And gets into killing.
Re:Highly Armed Nincompoops (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes. America makes me very nervous. Oh, isn't that what you meant?
China has around 200 nuclear weapons, compared to the US's 5000+.
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Does anybody actually believe (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Does anybody actually believe (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree. Yet another anti-china story, in a long list of anti-china stories over the past few weeks, ever since the chinese threatened to call in the US debt when the US demanded the chinese revaluate the Yuan. More American propaganda being fed to the people, to make sure that China is slowly moved to the "axis of evil" category.
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Re:Does anybody actually believe (Score:4, Interesting)
Besides, if the US never traded with autocracies, there would never have been a US in the first place.
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It's not very hard... (Score:3, Funny)
Everyone knows the password is "Joshua"... Just stick to the Chess simulation when you get inside the DoD servers or you could be absconded by the FBI in an unmarked panel van.
It doesn't make any sence... (Score:5, Insightful)
(1) That the Pentagon doesn't have a Windows box connected to the Internet with a public IP address.
(2) That the 'hackers' are smart-enough to actually hack into the Pentagon (ergo they are not script-kiddies).
Wouldn't these hackers be smart enough to originate these attacks from some-other hacked network via an anonymous proxy? (And then delete any logs that still might point to their activities.)
At the very least I would expect a simple IP spoofing to have taken place.
This was too easy, something is up.
Nothing's up (Score:3, Interesting)
Call me again when that happens. In the meantime - congrats, they probably found
Re:It doesn't make any sence... (Score:5, Insightful)
Are there some super-smart people in the military? Of course. Are there incompetant ones in positions of power as well? I don't know. Let's ask the Commander in Chief
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
He eventually traced their attacks to a Chinese IP, after they hopped numerous machines in the process. He turn
I'm impressed (Score:5, Funny)
What's the big deal? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
This sort of issue could be fixed if the Pentagon switched from using windows based systems to using SELinux systems with mandatory smart card access.
Remember, there are 2 levels of privilege above administrator in windows, and there are 3 backdoor keys into windows. Microsoft's, the NSA's and who knows who has the third?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Wire up the IDS (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, if you dont see any difference, I expect to see you in the enlistment line first thing tomorrow morning. And dont make up some BS that youve 'already served' because it will be a lie. NO SINGLE PERSON who has been in war, will make the suggestion to simply to go to war over a PC break-in.
And if you STILL dont see any difference, try the following links; http://theheretik.typepad.com/the_heretik/images/c hild_of_war_life_in_death_053005.jpg [typepad.com]
http://www.videos1.informationclearinghouse.info/i mages/seven.jpg [informatio...house.info]
Those that modded this 'insightful' I would expect will be in the front of that enlistment line tomorrow, right ahead of you.
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Life would have been so much better if any spying attempt by the USSR/USA on the USA/USSR had resulted in the nukes being launched. Would have made the cold war a lot shorter anyway...
Re:Wire up the IDS (Score:5, Funny)
I can see it now. Some wack-job malcontent who would otherwise have loaded up a truck with explosives and taken out half a federal building and its daycare centre will instead penetrate the network of a western company in China. From there, he will penetrate a Chinese low-security network, and launch an attack against the toilet paper inventory system at the Pentagon. This will trigger the IDS, and the next thing we know the United States of America launches a first-strike against the Henan branch of the People's Yak Testicle Grading Board because that's who the attacking IP address belongs to. China retaliates. The U.S.A. retaliates against the retaliation.
Still look like a good idea?
(And for fuck's sake, nobody mod this funny. Okay, the People's Yak Testicle Grading board is hilarious, but the thought of *any* automated system being hooked up to launch controls is the stuff of nightmares... especially when there's no real way to tell if the "attack" is from your opponent or someone else who wants to pin the blame on them. Someone massing troops on the border or lobbing nukes your way? Worth a military escalation. Someone probing your network? Not so much.)
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Why do you think America is on good terms with Communist China--even bringing them into the WTO--while we have an embargo on Communist Cuba? Because China doesn't execute peo
Re:Ummm... (Score:5, Insightful)
Espionage is one of the oldest tools of civilization. Heck, even allies spy on each other. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the Brits were doing the same things to the US.
Espionage, in fact, can be a very good thing for peace. The Soviets and the Americans knew so much about each others' military capacity and arsenals that neither side dreamed of an open, direct conflict. A lack of knowledge of the opposing side's capacity would have been infinitely more dangerous.
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Re:Unacceptable (Score:5, Interesting)
This has been the case since the first man beat up his neighbor and forced him to become his slave. This rich will ALWAYS be richer, but the poor increase their standard of living. Today being "poor" in the West means having a small tv, and a second hand car, a used fridge and electricity, and a menial job. 200 years ago it meant starvation, and it still does in some places. Your point is?
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Re:Unacceptable (Score:4, Insightful)
The line wasn't "the rich are richer," as you implied but rather "get richer" as in "increase wealth relative to the rest of society." It is well known that of the destabilizing influence large economic gaps have on societies. The creation of a permanent underclass is not conductive to democracies, nor productive economies. For instance, it's well known that the wealthy have better access to the legal system through being able to afford more and better lawyers, while the poor often have no access to legal council in civil settings, and inadequate council in criminal settings.
It's relative wealth, not absolute wealth that matters to the fabric of a society. Attempting to place emphasis on absolute wealth, while ignoring the very real effects of large relative wealth disparity is a well known trick of the wealthy to attempt distract the majority poor into supporting that are not in their economic self-interest.
You really should learn some socioeconomics.
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