Consumerist Catches Geek Squad Stealing Porn 686
mekane8 writes "Consumer-advocate blog Consumerist ran a sting operation to catch a Best Buy Geek Squad member searching for and stealing media files from a customer's computer. The article includes the story with screen captures and a video of the technician's actions. From that piece: 'Reached for comment, Geek Squad CEO Robert Stephens expressed desire to launch an internal investigation and said, "If this is true, it's an isolated incident and grounds for termination of the Agent involved." This is not just an isolated incident, according to reports from Geek Squad insiders alleging that Geek Squad techs are stealing porn, images, and music from customer's computers in California, Texas, New Jersey, Virginia and elsewhere. Our sources say that some Geek Squad locations have a common computer set up where everyone dumps their plunder to share with the other technicians.' A related story from a former Geek Squad employee details the decline of the Geek Squad and Best Buy ethics in general."
The decline of ethics????? (Score:5, Insightful)
bottom-of-the-IT-food-chain to have ethics? Why are they any different
from a parking lot attendant or car wash guy? Because they're techies?
Don't kid yourself.
Heck, at two companies I've worked for (both big-name, publicly traded),
they've caught (and fired) one or more sysadmins reading other people's
email.
Sadly, The Ethical IT Guy is on the verge of becoming a quaint holdover
from the previous century.
Encrypt it, or lose it.
Whoa... whatever happened to 'it's not stealing' (Score:3, Insightful)
If this was any of you guys downloading stuff off Bittorrent all we'd here is "It's NOT STEALING WAAHH!!!"
However, now if the guys at GeekSquad do the exact same thing it's now 'stealing'....
So what you are saying is that if I get something from Bittorrent over my comparatively slow link that's not stealing, but being efficient about it (which these guys seem to be) is now 'stealing'. Check.
Oh, and don't even try that: 'But on Bittorrent it's OK since I have permission' bit with me, unless you yourself made the content (and for the love of God I hope it ain't Porn), your 'permission' is about as relevant as me giving you 'permission' to buy the Brooklyn Bridge.
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:5, Insightful)
All persons should aspire to live their lives ethically. Rather than have those who do be the exception, it ought to be that those that don't are the exception.
Re:Whoa... whatever happened to 'it's not stealing (Score:3, Insightful)
Like pictures of the customer and his gf getting it on, for example.
That's quite a bit different.
Re:Whoa... whatever happened to 'it's not stealing (Score:5, Insightful)
If someone wants to copy my \music\mp3 directory, more power to them. But, as another person posted, if they go into my \documents\creative_writing I'd be a bit ticked. I'll admit that. Mostly because unlike the music directory, none of the stuff in there is for public consumption. Also, the mp3 directory is 100% reproducible from public networks. It's already out there. Them taking a copy of all my mp3s is just a way for them to save time and bandwidth. My personal files, on the other hand, aren't.
Of course, as a use case this isn't likely, because I wouldn't buy a computer from Best Buy, let alone entrust them with repairing my box. (And of course, I can fix my own damn computer, so...)
This isn't a matter of stealing or copyright or anything like that. It's an invasion of privacy. Best Buy is giving you a contract (both social and written) saying that they respect you private data, and that you can trust them. If their employees root around in stuff they shouldn't, that's a breach of privacy.
Plus, it's a chance to lay down a strawman beat on Best Buy, and who wants to pass up that opportunity?
Cuts both ways (Score:3, Insightful)
While computer repair regulations don't exist like, say, auto repair regulations do, at the time I wondered if it would become compulsory for a computer repair shop to search and disclose child porn and similar because won't someone please think of the children.
If you have a safety deposit box at a bank, you're entrusting them not to open it while you're away and look at all the sparklies. If you take your clothes to a cleaner, you entrust them not to wear it out on the town ala. Seinfeld. If you get your car fixed, you entrust them not to wade through those papers in your glove compartment and snicker at that condom from 1974. I think it's a reasonable expectation that you'll have files not related to your problem remain unexamined.
Were it my repair shop, the first thing I'd think of is "wow, we're so not busy right now my employee has the time to search for goodies on client computers?"
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:2, Insightful)
It's the home photos that are the problem (Score:4, Insightful)
Stealing is (Score:3, Insightful)
when you take something from someone and deprive them of it.
If someone makes copies of files they find on my PC, they are invading my privacy and that is bad. They are not stealing from me. I still have all my pictures.
If I have found that someone has invaded my privacy in this way, I will be unhappy but I should not accuse them of theft!
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:3, Insightful)
Anyway, complain about the big guys. The little guy is always tempted, but when the big guy does this shit you shut up.
Remember when the CEO of Seagate said something about regretting making all these high capacity HDDs only to find that they are being used to store all this pirated content?
Well, how on earth do you think he knew the content was there? His people are violating customer privacy by examining the contents of the drives. Can you imagine finding racy pictures of your wife or girl friend on the internet from these guys stealing your photos off crashed hard drives?
You should be seriously considering the big guys not some geek that steals some porn. Talk about a tempting situation. That's like putting a steak on the floor in front of a dog and expecting the dog to have self control and not eat it.
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:3, Insightful)
they've caught (and fired) one or more sysadmins reading other people's
email.
Huh? Where I'm at we have a specific person (used to be me, but I moved to a different position now) who is specifically SUPPOSED to go through all sorts of emails that get stuck aside for containing any "trigger words".
As to Encrypt it, or lose it. our system would scan for user-level encryption on any outgoing messages and spits them back to the sender. It's considered a security risk (legal and technical) if the message can't be observed by the system and staff, so they are rejected.
Re:Whoa... whatever happened to 'it's not stealing (Score:3, Insightful)
So, frankly, I think your hypocrisy meter needs recalibration. Or are you calling it hypocrisy because Consumerist calls it stealing, while Slashdot (often, perhaps even generally) doesn't? 'Cause that strikes me as a sort of weird definition of hypocrisy. I mean, I wouldn't normally call my boss hypocritical for not giving me a raise when my wife thinks I deserve one.
For the record: copyright infringement isn't stealing, though it may be unethical. Copying people's porn stashes off their hard drives isn't stealing, though it may be unethical (due primarily to the - naive - presumption of privacy that consumers likely have).
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:1, Insightful)
All persons should aspire to live their lives ethically. Rather than have those who do be the exception, it ought to be that those that don't are the exception.
Where is the breach in acquiring someone's porn? Frankly, I think it's disgraceful that a person would leave easy to access pornography on their computer.
You have to understand something about people. Not everyone things the same. In the U.S., if your child trips on a crack in the road and breaks his face you immediately are outraged at city for having such a detestable street. In, say, Sweden, the individual is culpable for their own actions.
You shouldn't expect people to behave entirely ethically all the time because that's just contrary to our natures.
Off-site storage (Score:2, Insightful)
Maybe they were just backing up important files prior to software install?
It could happen... and apparently did.
Re:Then there is "entrapment". (Score:5, Insightful)
Cheers
Re:Then there is "entrapment". (Score:5, Insightful)
There is nothing like that here -- it's a computer with stuff on it, and their job is not to grab that stuff, it's to fix the computer. End of story.
How about a folder called "Music"? Can they steal from that because it's labeled as such?
Living ethically is a lot easier when you have enough ethics to avoid doing bad things for reasons better than "I might get caught."
Re:stealing stolen stuff is unethical? (Score:2, Insightful)
And, believe it or not, there are those on the 'net that pay for their pr0n, so that isn't a safe place to assume 'stolen' either.
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:5, Insightful)
I hate relativistic points of view. Some things are just not ethical. There are some things that could be quibbled over (grey areas, mostly), but this isn't something people should be debating. It is very widely consider wrong to steal stuff, kill people, invade people's privacy by looking through all their documents and photos without permission, etc. This is not something that needs to be up for debate.
As for the idea of "why can't we assume most people are nice", I generally do. But you still should be cautious for two reasons. First of all, despite what I'd like to believe a great many people just aren't ethical (and the constant stream of stuff from politicians, sports, stars, and other "role models" isn't helping).
Second, "God helps those who help themselves." Just because someone else shouldn't do something doesn't mean you shouldn't do something to try to prevent it. If the cross-walk sign says go you still check for cars right? Other people should stop, but they may not... so you look anyway. Whether you should have to or not, you protect yourself.
That people do this doesn't surprise me. That low paid people who are trained for 2 hours and given little oversight do this surprises me even less.
Re:Well, OK (Score:2, Insightful)
Watch the video from TFA. That's what he does (on a smaller scale.) He downloads personal photos including vacation photos of a girl in a bikini on the beach. He notices that as well and doesn't delete them.
He didn't LOOK at the porn but it might have been homemade. Who knows? The article makes a good point. Once the computer's broken, you can't necessarily clean it up. If your comp won't start but you happen to have sex videos and nude photos (or equally private but more mundane things) on your desktop. . . well . . .
It doesn't have to be porn. It could be important business files, personal writing, etc. If it's copyrighted material, that's one thing. If it's personal material, that's completely different. And the guy they caught definitely wasn't bothering to distinguish.
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah, the smell of fresh irony in the morning ( afternoon ).
You act ethically because you hold yourself accountable for your actions. I do a good job because I want to, because at the end of the day I feel good knowing I did the best I could. Not because if I work hard I'll get a "staff appreciation pin". Kudos from employers come and go ( or often are non-existant ).
I think that's the problem with this country: Too many people expect their managers to help them with their self-esteem. No one other than yourself should have any hand in that.
Re:And what's wrong with that? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:5, Insightful)
Oblig Car Analogy (Score:5, Insightful)
My car has some niceties I have added on myself. While I certainly do not take my car to just any mechanic, there are some (rare) exceptions when it cannot go to my usual mechanic (i.e. warranty work I had done in the past). An example of once such feature is a very loud stereo system. I actually take the electronic toll pass, change, and especially the amplifiers, and sub woofers out of the car before taking it in because I know the volume would otherwise be maxed out when I get it back from the shop. I simply do not trust just anyone outside of myself and my close friends to have those items within their reach. Furthermore, I am also careful, as with anybody else, to only hand them the keys they need to operate the vehicle, and do not provide them with my house keys or keys to anything other than the car.
People need to take the same types of precautions with computers. If possible, back up your files elsewhere (i.e. optical media, portable hard drive) or consider using a network storage device (many home network storage devices are available now with RAID, and are not terribly high in price). Just as you would with a car, take out any money and private/personal belongings and put it elsewhere for while it is in the shop. Also, use different passwords for your logins than you use for your email accounts and the-like, as this is synonymous to only providing them with the key/keys they need.
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:2, Insightful)
Although the words are often used interchangeably, they are not the same thing. A behavior is ethical because it follows a set of rules that have been rationally determined and (usually) written down. A popular reason for defining a behavior as ethically good or ethically bad is that society as a whole benefits when its individuals follow that behavior. Driving safely is a good example of ethical behavior.
A behavior is moral because God said it was. Or, in the case of the pope's 10 commandments for drivers, because His messager said so. Driving safely is now also a good example of moral behavior, thanks to the recently minted 3rd commandment of driving.
But either way, copying people's private files for your personal use is wrong.
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:5, Insightful)
There has to be a line somewhere for the law, but in something like this, that extra couple of weeks should have no bearing whatsoever on one's personal feelings. It's irrelevant. Both bother you, or neither does.
Re:I've done it. (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, thumbnail previews and accidental views sometimes showed me far more than I wanted to see. I think the worst was when a client warned me about the porn videos of his wife, and ASKED me to critique them. That's just creepy. I gave her a B- (hey, it's like an accident, you HAVE to look).
Ethics mean everything if you want to truly grow a business. You don't gossip about other clients, you look away when they type their password, you try not overhear conversations (and if you do, you mentally stuff those tidbits into a bag, tie a concrete block around them, and throw them to sink in the pool of forgotten memories). It's not just out of consideration for them, but it gains you trust and respect. It's also just the right thing to do.
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:3, Insightful)
Kids' primary role models are their parents. Be a role model, teach them not to look at politicians as role models (is this not extremely obvious!?), and you'll be OK.
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:5, Insightful)
How do we prepare our youth for their adult lives...
How did your parents prepare you? This started long, long before Bush and Co.
"I did not have sex with that woman..."
"I looked on a lot of women with lust.."
"I am not a criminal..."
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:3, Insightful)
By teaching them through our own personal behavior, and teaching them morality. We can't expect everyone to be perfect or even good, but that doesn't mean that they or we should stop trying. And when we screw up, we have to admit it and try to improve rather than just justifying it by blaming everyone else, or pointing out examples of other people who have done similar things. In other words we must take responsibility for our own actions, as well as holding other people responsible for theirs.
just my $.02 , but I have the feeling its worth a lot more than that. Like almost a dollar or so, depending on the exchange rate.
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:3, Insightful)
All persons should aspire to live their lives ethically. Rather than have those who do be the exception, it ought to be that those that don't are the exception.
Every member of the Human Race should aspire to better themselves. Because in the end, you loose it all.
What do you want your legacy to be, a Brutal Dictator or the next great Nobel Prize winner? How much can you contribute to humanity before you die?
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:3, Insightful)
But you should expect it and only be surprised when they don't. Don't be surprised when evidence from an illegal search by a citizen not operating under color of law enforcement is allowed into evidence in court, and that citizen not have to face any charges of electronic trespass (no reasonable expectation of privacy, no technician-client privilege).
If you have anything questionable on your machine, even just one illegal installation of pirated software, you don't want anything to do with outside service of your device. Anything they find that is illegal they'll have to report, because they don't know they aren't being tested for failure to not report (the law wants reliable snitches doing PC repair).
Indeed, you should expect data retention policies to be expanded to PC repair business being required to clone clients' hard drives for possible subpoena later.
IANAL.
Re:IS Geek Squad Really Up Sell Squad? (Score:1, Insightful)
Don't complain on slashdot. Become an activist and make institutions change.
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:4, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:5, Insightful)
This may be unpopular, but how can numbers possibly be a significant enough threat to land one in prison? (A digital image file is a very large number.)
Yes, by all means, find the people who perpetrated the original crime of your term child abuse (or more emotionally, sexual assault of a defenseless child), and bring them to justice.
However, once a society makes owning a number a crime, it makes it very easy to "frame" people who hold unpopular-but-not-illegal beliefs: just push some child pornography into their computer, or easier, "find" some photos in their car.
This is very scary stuff. I am ashamed that we have made it illegal to have a number (or a photo), not out of any desire to obtain and retain said numbers or photos, but simply because the threat of abuse of this type of law is obvious and has already happened (witness RIAA witch hunts).
And the reason it's scary is because I truly care about the injured victims and want restitution. Going after third parties does not help, and creates a police state in which unpopular beliefs like mine can be silenced through selective evidence planting.
Similarly, felons should retain the right to vote, especially since having the wrong number can make you a felon.
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:3, Insightful)
Wow, awesome. Vigilante justice. You must be so proud.
Believe it or not, "truth and justice for all" does not mean "justice for all, except the people we're pretty sure don't deserve it." The whole point of the American system is that a fair legal system is far more qualified to punish people than you and your thug buddies. You are no better than a villager with a pitchfork going after Frankenstein's monster.
I'm not saying you should have done nothing at all. Holding or stalling him until the police arrived would have been appropriate. Or at least getting his license plate.
Made your stomach churn? What the hell?
If it was a picture of a guy with a seven-year-old, I would agree. But a girl who might have been a week less than eighteen?
There is nothing sick or wrong about having sex with a 17-year-old girl; it just happens to be illegal in a lot of places. If you happen to be gay, that's fine. If it made your stomach churn for any other reason, there is something wrong with you.
He lost trust because of spying on customers (Score:4, Insightful)
"so I did kill the guy, but he turned out to be a child molester" -- Should you be going around killing people in the hopes you eventually catch one?
"so I raped that girl, but she liked me in the end" -- should you be going around... you get the point I think.
Peek Squad? (Score:3, Insightful)
Yo... The photo processor at Thrifty and Walgreens been lookin' at your stray pookie shots for some tyme now, my brother.
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:3, Insightful)
OTOH, while I "allow" someone to PERUSE my files for diagnostic purposes, COPYING MY FILES has absolutely NO "REASONABLE EXPECTATION" AT ALL!
wake the fuck up, man...
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm guessing that a lot of the GeekSquad employees feel justified because of what some of their customers ask them to do. I worked as an underpaid IT shit and I got ethically questionable requests from customers all the time. From wanting me to use a pirated OS to wanting me to backup their pirated software. I'm sure you all don't find a problem with that either. Work one day as a programmer and you'll change your tune.
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:4, Insightful)
"If you're NOT going to treat finding a hammer on someone as serious, then you've automatically given skull crushers a plausible way out."
See how ridiculous it sounds when it isn't "about the children?"
The people who we should spending our tax law enforcement dollars on are the people who are actually and actively creating victims. Someone looking at a picture (or in possession of a hammer) is not doing anything to create a victim. It's when the child abuse happens, or the hammer is swung at a skull, that the crime takes place.
But I'm not defining the law, simply finding holes in its application. I apologize if I have offended you.
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, I think that is the biggest crime right there.
Re:The decline of ethics????? (Score:3, Insightful)