QuickTime .MOV + Toshiba + Vista = BSOD

Question Guy writes "Apple QuickTime is involved in a troubling problem that doesn't seem to be addressed by any of the major software and hardware manufacturers involved. On Toshiba machines, such as the Protege Tablet M400s, with Windows Vista installed, opening a locally stored QuickTime .MOV causes instant bluescreen. All other video functions seem to be working in other video playback types — even streaming .MOVs work — and there is little to no 'buzz' on the Net that might push any of the parties to investigate or to play nice together (Microsoft for Vista, Intel for the GMA945 chipset, Toshiba for their custom tablet software, Apple for QuickTime). Help, anyone?"

Sounds like User Error?

[Rosyna]

It says "playing a .MOV file". A .mov (MooV) file is a container format for codecs. iTunes doesn't use a "QuickTime Player" it uses QuickTime.

It almost sounds like a particular driver or something is crashing when trying to do hardware acceleration of a particular codec (like H.264). The author seems like they're shooting bullets of blame in a wild and uncontrollable manner.

Probably Vista

[slughead]

The fact that it crashed was probably Apple's "bad", but the fact that it resulted in a BSOD is obviously Vista.

Maybe this has to do with the added layer of complexity (presumably for DRM) between the kernel and video-utilizing programs... or is that just for DirectX programs?

Has apple updated QT yet?

[peragrin]

last I knew apple hadn't updated quicktime or itunes, for Vista. So people are running into problems with a heavily drm'd OS not properly running applications that weren't designed to run on it.

should i be surprised?

Re:Title error...

[ivan256]

What would be the Mac equivalent to a Tablet PC?

Re:Probably Vista

[Anonymous Coward]

An operating system can only be as working as the hardware it's running on. It could be something funky that Toshiba's doing, though you're right, it should never be possible for an application to BSOD.

Certainly not Apple's fault

[evilviper]

From TFA:

or the problem could in fact be Apple's for something in the QuickTime code that's at fault.

No, it couldn't... If you're running as an unprivileged user, the software you run shouldn't possibly be able to crash your OS.

Drivers can, and bugs in the OS can. User-run programs can only (accidentally) trigger one of those... in which case, that's a DoS exploit in the system.

except the format in question...

[sentientbrendan]

>You may try with VLC media player.
>Works very well with tons of formats.

except the format in question... VLC can't play most modern quicktime movies.

The real issue here is a bad driver, which could be anyone's fault *but* quicktime's. That said, for most purposes VLC or mediaplayer classic is a better player on windows than quicktime.

Re:Title error...

[mgv]

Vista = BSOD

There, fixed the title for you. :)

Would it not read more like:

"A carefully crafted executable, under certain conditions may cause a denial of service attack"

Its not that quicktime crashes - that's apples fault. Its that the operating system goes down - definitely Microsoft's fault and problem. Although I presume its at least part hardware driver given the machine specific nature.

After all these years, it shouldn't be that easy to do. Vista was supposed to be the most secure operating system yet. Or so I recall.

Michael

FUD

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows devices are supposed to degrade (by Microsoft specification that Toshiba has surely designed to) when they detect allegedly (by some measure) "illegal" content (e.g. content that should be DRM protected and isn't)

False. Your post is FUD. Vista doesn't do shit to anything without DRM. It doesn't add DRM, "detect" that something should have DRM, or anything of that sort. If a file already has DRM attached, it supports certain measures demanded by the content owners. That's it. This whole "Vista DRM infests my non-DRM'd files!" BS has gotten old by now. Let it go.

this problem has digital rights management (DRM) written all over it

Do you know anything about systems? Nothing here sounds like DRM, it sounds like a shitty driver for this Toshiba model being hounded by QuickTime in a specific way. It very well could be an Apple hack to get their stuff working (they don't always make the cleanest Windows code, you know).

RALink Chipset + Ubuntu + Network Manager= Nothing

[LighterShadeOfBlack]

So my wireless USB dongle stopped working when I upgraded to Ubuntu 7.04. It seems Network Manager doesn't like the rt73usb driver, or just about any RALink driver judging by the Ubuntu Forums. Help, anyone?

What, you mean /. isn't the place to post bug reports? Could've fooled me...

Re:except the format in question...

[l_bratch]

A normal program running with normal user privileges should not be able to crash a system. If it does (like in this case), then it must be a hardware/kernel/driver defect.

Re:Title error...

[WhiteWolf666]

And the iPhone, on which you _cannot_ install software, and which has limited data connectivity options is equivalent to a full blow Tablet PC how?

I'm an Apple fan, but come on.

Re:Sounds like User Error?

[manekineko2]

Is this seriously a request for tech support from a single user being reported as if its news? This is really a brave new world of MS bashing.

Maybe there is no "buzz" for this issue because it is limited to only this user? Or even if it affects that entire line of computers, maybe its simply the fact that Toshiba shipped shitty video drivers that crash the system on video overlay or something.

Re:VLC

[wellingj]

I think you are missing the point.... not much *IS* compatible with Vista.
wow... what a role reversal with Linux...
next thing you know my dad is going to make me cookies and my mom will make me build a fence...

Re:Title error...

[Giometrix]

"It's not Apple's problem, and MSFT will be in no hurry to release a patch to allow you to play a rivals filetype, so I'd suggest you export it as a wmv or dump the POS and get a Mac."

Let me get this straight, there's a strong possibility that the issue is being caused by Apple software and you're telling him that he needs to dump his PC and buy a computer made by the manufacturer of that software?

Hastening

[SuperKendall]

Perhaps Microsoft will be in a little bit more of a hurry when the hackers figure out what is causing the BSOD from Vista and work it into the next custom malware?

So much for Vista's security model

[Anonymous Coward]

All those years of development and a user app still can crash the whole system? Or do they really run video player codecs at kernel level?
Amazing! Looks like they didn't learn anything after NT 3.51.

If the IT world was managed by competent people instead of clueless businessmen, people would be fired for choosing a Microsoft product for anything serious.

Isn't this a Vista Issue?

[Hercules Peanut]

I'm not trying to appear to be an Apple fanboy but any OS that allows an app to cause a BSOD (or freeze or whatever) should be considered the culprit, shouldn't it?

Sure, you can write a bad app, one that crashes or doesn't get along with other apps but shouldn't a modern OS prevent any app from being able to take the whole system down?

Maybe Apple needs to work on QT for Vista but MS really needs to take ownership of the problem at this level IMHO.

Re:I think you answered your question already.

[Anonymous Coward]

We know that Apple is not the problem because an application should never be able to invoke a BSOD, no matter how poorly written.

Re:I think you answered your question already.

[Sillygates]

A userspace application should not be able to completely crash a system.

They didn't learn anything after NT 3.51

[argent]

Looks like they didn't learn anything after NT 3.51.

Regressed, mate. NT 3.51 had the graphics drivers in user space. NT 4.0 moved them into kernel space.

Not that this is unusual, but it *did* serve as an advantage that NT used to have back in the day.

Re:Title error...

[Anonymous Coward]

The iPhone-tuned features of OS X are far more appropriate to a slate form factor than desktop OS X or Windows Brick--excuse me, Tablet Edition.

When are people going to stop insisting that there is *a* right way to do things?

The iPhone form factor would be better if you want an ultra-portable computer you can carry around with you whereever you go. The Tablet PC form factor is better if you want a bigger screen, for instance (in order of what I think is least to most convincing) if you are giving a presentation and you want to be able to note on the screen, you want to read a ebook, or if you want to take notes in class.

Both would be very useful in their domain; neither is the be-all, end-all solution. People don't use PDAs instead of laptops or laptops instead of PDAs, and there's a reason for that.

Re:Title error...

[cronot]

Others have already said it, but I'm gonna say it again anyway: The possibility that Quicktime itself is causing the BSOD is infinitesimally next to zero - no userspace application should bring the OS down directly. Quicktime obviously is triggering the BSOD, but there isn't absolutely any "strong possibility that the issue is being caused by Apple software". The issue is most likely bad drivers - and the fact that the device uses a custom tablet isn't of any help. While Apple probably could work around the problem, they are the last party he should ask for it - The first, and most likely to get his problem resolved is Toshiba. Even if they can't to anything about it directly (i.e., the problem is on Vista), they should at least be able to put some pressure on Microsoft to get it done.

I do agree, however, that the suggestion the GP gave of dumping the device is overrated.

Re:Quicktime + SCSI = BSOD

[NMerriam]

Since when does Quicktime come with kernel mode disk controller drivers? I agree it isn't a great piece of Windows software, but I fail to see how it should have anything whatsoever to do with how the data is being read from the disk by the OS -- if the OS can read the network/SCSI/SATA/PATA drive, what difference does it make to quicktime other than read performance? How can QT cause a BSOD reading from a particular device when it has nothing to do with the driver accessing the device?

Where's the memory dump?

[Sergeant Beavis]

Disclaimer: I USED to work at Microsoft and I now own a Mac.

Here is an example of an idiot trying to look smart. Have you bothered to have someone look at the memory dump? What was the stop code? Did you check the event logs?

The fact is, it could be ANY of the three things mentioned or NONE of them. It could be an anti virus filter driver. It could be a memory access violation in Kernel Mode memory. It could have absolutely nothing to do with Vista or QT or even the Toshiba's drivers. It could be that the author is just stupid.

I'm leaning in the direction that this author is simply ignorant but since he felt he should write an article and place blame with minimal evidence to support his claim, he falls solidly in the stupid category.

The only fact that the author has presented is that he had a BSOD when using QT on Vista on Toshiba hardware when playing a local file. That only gives you suspects. A lawyer should know better. I've had occasions where customers swore up and down that one product was causing a BSOD and the memory dump pointed squarely at another product. Rarely (on XP) did I ever see a memory dump that actually pointed the finger at Windows. More often than not, I've seen memory dumps caused by filter drivers used by anti virus.

Perhaps Mr Fishkin should write more about being a lawyer because he damn well doesn't know much about computers.

Re:Has apple updated QT yet?

[DoofusOfDeath]

should i be surprised?

You should be a little surprised. QuickTime is a user-privileged program, not part of the kernel and not a device driver. It shouldn't be able to cause the whole OS to crash.

But realistically, that probably just means that QuickTime is demonstrating the existence of a bug in the video driver and/or the Vista kernel. A user-privileged program can't should the whole blame for any BSOD.

Fools usually have problems

[Jeremy_Bee]

Speaking as someone who works with Macs all day long and has had to troubleshoot problems like this many many times, the person who wrote this article seems like a bit of a fool to me. The kind of person that has just enough knowledge to be dangerous (to himself). This reminds me of those situations like when your Dad (thinks) he knows about computers, and in fact my Senior Citizen detector was going off on every line he wrote.

The stupid thing is that he blames Apple in the end but at the same time seems to narrow the issue down to a driver problem with his tablet PC. That's just bad thinking all around. The art of troubleshooting is in the elimination of possibilities. If it works everywhere but on his tablet PC the problem is definitely in his tablet PC, which he even mentions in the article yet simultaneously doesn't know where the problem is? WTF?

He also links to an entire *other* article he has written about driver support that indicates he knows very little about what to do on the Mac when the hardware is not instantly recognised or indeed, much of anything about drivers. The problem he relates in *that* article is about getting a brand new "high end" HP printer and it's driver to work with his old G4.

When this computer was manufactured, it would have shipped with OS 9.0, then he would have upgraded it to OS-X, then 10.2, 10.3, 10.4 etc. Then he goes out and buys a bleeding edge HP printer and is stymied when it doesn't "just work"??? He also has to go through extensive tech support to find out that the thing probably would work with an older driver, but it would have a reduced feature set. Hello? Hasn't he heard of the "Generic PostScript driver"??? This is the solution for all old hardware and if he had the experience he claimed, he would probably know that.

As others have pointed out, Quicktime uses standard calls and standard protocols, it's an *.mp4 file for cripes sake. The problem here is more likely with some proprietary screen-re-drawing code in the tablet PC.

This guy is that very dangerous combination of a "dabbler," but with a world-wide audience.
     

Re:Title error...

[Malc]

QuickTime could be doing something bad like consuming and not releasing inordinate amounts of graphics resources. Not that I'm going to bother benchmarking it. Look at the way the app looks and behaves - the devs obviously have no clue how to develop for Windows.

Re:I think you answered your question already.

[Anonymous Coward]

They claimed it was impossible for an application to cause a BSOD so there couldn't be anything wrong with Mozilla.

OK, so Mozilla had a resource leak. Clearly there was also a kernel or driver bug, because a BSOD is a kernel crash.

Re:I think you answered your question already.

[charlieman]

So isn't Microsoft the one to blame for letting applications cause BSOD?

Re:I think you answered your question already.

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't a corner stone of "stable" and "reliability" in an modern OS the inability of any app to cause failure by sucking up all resources?

"its not a bug, its a feature!"

[dknj]

um let me run this scenario by you. you're finishing up your long 226 legal brief in Microsoft word. you go to click file save, but the directory you are saving to has 400 files. windows does some internal file processing and starts eating up the final 10k of available physical memory. swapping begins to occur until your sound card that was playing your favorite midi throws an error because windows did not feed data in time. the sound card drive freaks out, and returns a failure to the midi app. the midi app, not prepared for this, starts an infinite loop eating all of your available memory. eventually you overflow the stack and your windowing system is hosed.

you shake the mouse and click repeatedly hoping to unfreeze the computer. you hit control alt delete, nothing happens. you reset the computer silently hoping word's autosave worked for once.

now, my question to you.. is the above story what you are implying is happening here? (answer this question honestly before you continue)

because that is what happened back in Windows 3.1. Since the creation of modern operating systems, we have learned to take advantage of advanced hardware and separate each application into its own memory space (see: Intro to Operating Systems at your local community college). Thus, a single application should NOT take down your entire system. If an application is causing a BSOD and there is no funky kernel-mode hardware access going on.. the fault is on the hardware or OS (to include drivers as well). Period.

If you wish to debate this, remember that I may have just found a way to compromise your system.

You are barking up the wrong tree.

[haraldm]

Still, a user space app should never be able to produce a BSOD, even if it is pushing the limits. It's the OSes job to keep apps from going haywire, no matter what. They use that stuff in medical devices, airplanes and space travel, forget? It's like Windows should never execute (!) a mail attachment only according to the MIME type without looking at the file itself: The single largest problem with trojans and worms. A design error is a design error.

I call bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

What release of Quicktime? What drivers for your SCSI devices? Where's the detail? You even mention a "fix" from Microsoft but don't bother to give a knowledge base reference or link. I call bullshit on you.

Like the OP (troll), you never say if use any of the Quicktime software features to test?

Quicktime lets you turn off DirectX drawing. It provides check boxes for a Safe mode (GDI only), DirectDraw acceleration (incl. secondary monitors), Direct3D video acceleration. Did you tick the boxes in your Quicktime movie to "Preload this track" for both the audio & video tracks? Did that solve your "SCSI" problem or the sync problem?

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

RTFM ;-)

[hummassa]

At the risk of being filtered out, try compiling and running the following program. For best results, do it on a single-processor system:

#include <sys/types.h>
#include <unistd.h>
void main(){
  for(;;){
    fork();
  }
}

I just did.

$ cd /tmp
$ xclip -o > um.c
$ gcc um.c
$ ulimit -u 200
$ ./a.out

waits some seconds, sees cpu graph in superkaramba reach 100%, waits some more, hits ^C

$

No kernel panic, no system hosing here, ok?

YES.

[hummassa]

If any client asks for more than its fair share of resources, DENY them to it. Then, and only then, this is a client's bug. If you ask for more and more of my resources and I keep giving them to you until I myself starve, it's MY problem, not yours.