Depends on whats in the emails. It could be your normal grouping of spam and chain letters, at which point I would actually send Microsoft a thank you not. Or it could be an email with some vital information in it (yes, should be backed up, but realistically, how many people do that?).
There's 119 posts on that thread. It's a trail of something, most likely pissed-off users. I smell an opportunity..... Quick! Someone post some linux evangelism there!
Yeah, like Linux never loses mail. One of the grave RC bugs of Debian Etch has been bug 321102/332473/350851 where KMail will nuke your disconnected IMAP folder under certain conditions. It's closed now and due for archiving today, but they're still listed here [debian.org]. I haven't been checking Thunderbird, Evolution but I doubt they're a symbol of perfection either. Wouldn't you just love to have some smug Microsoftie drop by your support thread to spread the One Microsoft Way?
Actually a recent version of Thunderbird would in fact hose your email. Apparently a bug crept in that when Thunderbird's spam detector detected a certain kind of spam, it proceeded to mark ALL the mail in the mailbox for deletion on the next compaction.
For those people who compact on exit, that was seriously bad news.
However, the fix was also easy - since all mail is in text files rather than proprietary binary formats. You simply dumped the Thunderbird release with the bug and downgraded to the last releas
You are apparently wrong. Check out the link: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104956 [kde.org] Around comments 35-36, they state that the copy on the server is deleted.
> Quick! Someone post some linux evangelism there!
Yes Linux has a better record. But then so does everyone else. Go ahead, name the operating system with a security record equal or inferior to Windows over the last decade.
*BSD? Nope, even if you exempt OpenBSD *BSD has a far better record than anything Microsoft has released in the past decade. And OpenBSD wears the crown when it comes to security. Usability, scalability and such are legitimate counter concerns though and explain why OpenBSD hasn't conquered the world.
Linux? Regardless of the distribution, if it is a large enough operation to keep up with the torrent of errata teh universe of OpenSource/Free Software generates they have all done better then Microsoft when it comes to timely updates. And with the bonus of the existence of "Enterprise" distributions for a good part of the decade that focus on errata updates that won't have unrelated breakage.
Apple? Their record with OS 8 and OS 9 beat Microsoft and OS X just upped their game.
Sun? HP? IBM? Please.
I'm not saying anyone should be proud of their security history and methodology, all software currently sucks ass. But since we have to use something NOW the question is why is the worst vendor on 90% of the world's machines?
What I'd like to see is a major concerted effort to raise software quality over adding new features. Engage the CS departments in teh universities to have all students audit some code. After all, most operating systems these days allow access to the source. And auditing real code would be a good experience for em. They would see first hand how wretched much of the code actually in use is firsthand. And if legends are writing that stuff they just might listen a bit more when when the prof is badgering about not hotdogging in the belief they are too leet to make those 'idiot' mistakes.
And for the Linux world I'd like to see the major distros come together to take every package not currently at 1.0 and finish em or dump em. Then stabilise the codebase, audit the crap out of it and then freeze them, only accepting bug fixes. And a nice side effect is they would all have the SAME version. The original project can still release new versions but it won't get integrated into a major stable distro until they announce a new feature complete and AUDITED version. Seriously, is there anything else that needs to go into glibc? So why not stabilize it, sudit it and then freeze it? We need a trusted core that we don't have to update several times per year. As computers become central to our civilization we need them to work a lot more than we need shiny new features.
Some people become attached to their collections--no matter what the collection is. It is psychologically difficult for some people to face the reality that some things are simply not worth saving.
I advocate a training program for those people: once each year they should practice archiving everything they might ever want to save to one CD. Just one typical data CD. Not a DVD. One single CD. Anything which doesn't make it to the CD is random number filled.
I advocate a training program for those people: once each year they should practice archiving everything they might ever want to save to one CD. Just one typical data CD. Not a DVD. One single CD. Anything which doesn't make it to the CD is random number filled.
Why? Is there a downside to having a large collection of "stuff"?
I fail to understand the value in getting rid of these old emails, it takes time to purge things no longer useful more time and effort than archiving them. Personally my online email archive goes back 3 years and I have off line storage back to the 80's and see no reason to spend the time to sort though them for the few potentially needed ones rather than just archiving out the data. I would also have to say that keeping everything to one cd or even one DVD would require deleting all the pictures and vide
I worked in an office where the recently hired tech guy managed to destroy the VP of marketing's Email 3 separate times. All in the first 3 months of his contract. That was the end of him. It's not such a big deal to lose personal email, but for people who have integrated the use of email into their business it's ugly. I would like to think that people are backing up their 1.2 gig PST files, but I know that there are many smart successful people out there with big PST's that have no backup. This kind o
This is exactly why I don't keep my.pst file on a work server. I use a laptop from work, and by keeping that huge.pst file on my local drive, I can choose to back it up when and where I like. No matter how good the guys in corporate IT might be, I just don't trust them. With most of my backup processes, it would take 2 disastrous events to happen at the same (or near enough) time to cause total loss of data. It would only take one careless IT person, or software update to cause complete loss if I trusted
Extreme? Not in the least, some people live off of their inboxes. This can cause real personal and financial damage.
Speaking of tears, I had a good laugh when I read this:
After the latest update which required a restart
I really don't intend to be mean, but this just took me back a few years to when I was using Windows. I had totally forgotten about updates that require reboots (well, kernel updates do, even on Linux). Amusing, to me at least.
Anyhow, OneCare has bugs, not that surprising really, all
You do realize that the "Trail of Tears" is what the forced relocation of the Cherokee people, during which about 1/4 were killed off from disease, is called, don't you*?
*If you aren't from the US, then I back off the "you should know this" attitude.
Well, I learned something just now, I had no idea that that was a US cultural reference; I am, in fact, not from the US (lived there as a child for a few years, decades ago). Actually I didn't even think it might be a reference, so I di
Do you honestly think that losing your email is anywhere near on par with being forcably relocated from the land your ancestors had lived on for centuries to be moved to Oklahoma?
Yes. Now I'll have to pay full price for viagra. I consider the two to be on par.
And just remember, this is the same development house that the whole world seems to have no problem with the thought of giving root acces to their machines so they can keep them 'safe.'
If those idiots don't screw the world up by their own incompetence first they are going to get Windows Update 0wn3d and allow someone malevolent to wreak even worse havok on the world.
Seriously, I can't understand how any Microsoft product is permitted to be used in any role where failure isn't an option. Finance, military, medical, etc should have imposed a ban a decade ago, forbidding the stuff from even being connected to a network port inside the secure inner firewall. Instead we are installing the stuff into the engine room on our warships, giving it sole control of the propulsion system.
This is insanity on a global scale. A lot of people even seem to understand the danger yet are too afraid to speak up loudly enough to be heard.
You hear the complaint both ways, of course. Commercial software gets professional testing, which means that engineers are paid to test un-fun corner cases, apply heuristic analysis, and other stuff like that. FOSS software gets more intense testing, because there are more people testing, although it's somewhat less organized. Well, here's an example of how it can go wrong, no matter who you are. Of course, we're never surprised when Microsoft has a bug. It's really funny to me, actually. Huge company--
Don't just sit there feeling smug! Every now and again, when you have a free moment, delete
your mbox file, or the directory where the mail client of your preference stores its data.
That'll go a long way towards helping Windows users to stop seeing us as arrogant and aloof and
let them know we share their pain.
(And if you're really feeling altruistic, knock up a shell script which turns your machine into a spam-spewing
zombie).
Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to put all mail, including not only INBOX but also all extra folders, in a single file? At least other MUAs usually have a separate file for each folder.
It doesn't depend so much on the MUA (although if that's the only option on the software you're certainly shit outta luck): mbox is a common format for mail. It does get unwieldy if there's a lot of mail in the file, of course, but it's easier to search by hand than a plethora of directories. I think.
mbox is a file format for a single folder. when you have an inbox, sent-mail, trash and some saved-mail folders you will have several mbox files. when you receive a mail and your inbox is deleted, you "only" lose the recently received mails and not all those valuable mails you saved in the past.
I'd wager your experience is close enough to being unique as to make no difference. Generally, stuffing everything into a monolithic file makes the data less accessible, less stable, and even less searchable. It does help Microsoft hide features and implementation details from competitors and it does make the mail program more mysterious (driving more users to paid solutions for problems). But in terms of convenience for the user, it gives bupkas.
Obviously they screwed up on the 1.5 RTM where now apparently they'll quarantine the whole PST file (don't get me started on the "one huge fucking file for everything" mentality...), but AFAICT OneCare does not delete the file. The problem is that it essentially hides it under [C:\Documents and Settings\All Users]\Application Data\Microsoft\OneCare Protection\Quarantine, compressed in a.CAB file and not accessible from a non-admin account. But if you can log into the machine with an admin account, you can recover the file, and turn off OneCare scanning of your mail file for good measure.
Then, get a good AV package - or better yet, just exercise some fucking common sense and don't open that "Re: Malaca Superfund Stranded" email from "Roberta Plantagenet~=%" that has a "postcard.exe" attachment.
by Anonymous Coward
on Saturday March 10 2007, @02:53PM (#18301378)
That theme seems to be "The cure is worse than the disease"
Example 1: Problem- Malware has carte blanche in XP to do damn near anything if it's run from an account with admin privileges. Solution- UAC in Vista. ("You are moving your mouse cursor. Cancel or allow?") Solution Sucks Because- UAC is so friggin' annoying with the popups that people will either shut it off or get in the habit of blindly clicking "OK," which means they are likely to give malware carte blanche to do damn near anything.
Example 2: Problem- Viruses. Solution- Windows OneCare Antivirus. Solution Sucks Because- One infected email can cause your whole inbox to go bye-bye.
Great job, guys! The five years it took you to get this stuff perfect was really worth it!
"You are moving your mouse cursor. Cancel or allow?"
While still incredibly annoying, at least it's a SLIGHT step up from what we used to have. "Your mouse cursor has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect."
Yes, this is off-topic. Yes, OneCare sucks if it deleted someones email.
If you don't backup your data you will lose it someday. It's not a question of "if" it is "when". Your hard drive will eventually crash!
I feel so sorry for people that encounter this. My business provides remote backup via the web & we try to help people prevent events like this, but it doesn't matter. I think all of our remote backup customers have previously experienced data loss.
I've had Norton Anti-Virus delete my Thunderbird Inbox when it detected an incoming virus. This was the main thing that made me get rid of Norton on all my computers.
The term "Defective by Design" was specifically invented to describe products containing DRM, where the usability of the product is intentionally compromised in order to protect the profits of a third party.
Yes, Microsoft has a lot of DRMed software, with Vista being the granddaddy of them all, but not everything Microsoft makes is defective by design. And in this particular case, the defect appears to be a bug rather than intentional anyway. So, please, save the "defectivebydesign" tag for situations where it's really warranted. Sure, it may be an amusing term, but when you use it where it doesn't apply, it waters down its meaning for the situation it was intended to be applied to: DRM.
The term "Defective by Design" was specifically invented to describe products containing DRM, where the usability of the product is intentionally compromised in order to protect the profits of a third party....and to apply to the security policy that's intentionally insecure to accomodate user issues and program writers. Most of the things that we see this appear in are because we see an exploit. Such exploits in a better written file system wouldn't be an issue at all. So the defect is the design more th
From the forum posts, it seems that MS don't want to scan incoming or outgoing emails and they also now don't want to scan the.pst file. They are happy for dormant viruses to exist on your machine because these are supposedly detected when being executed. Going by their current track record, I wouldn't be confident of any kind of protection from Microsoft 'Once Cared'.
The email is Quarantined - meaning you can get it back unharmed - not Deleted.
This is being misreported all across the Web even though the linked article in every case makes it clear.
It's a serious flaw certainly and still more bad press for Vista, but this one is not nearly as severe as issues like DRM and Certificate-only drivers in Vista - it doesn't deserve the same level of press.
Depending on how high Microsoft rates a malware threat, affected files sometimes bypass quarantine and are seemingly permanently (save recovery tools) deleted.
Precisely. For that matter, considering the target audence the concept of a Log file as notification is not only ineffective but probably offensive to most. Of the people I know who might use this product, every single one of them would have ended up in a shop and paying a lot of money to have a tech figure it out. Or more than likely paying them to re-install Windows and hope it didn't happen again.
AVG free move the concerned attchment to a quarantine directory and leave me a note telling me why in the email. My whole mailbox is file left untouched. So why is microsoft unable to do that ?
Of course, many modern viruses send the mail from an infected machine, from someone you know, sending viruses to the accounts of addresses on that machine. The approach has certainly been around for decades and remains in wide use. And Microsoft taught people, for years, to click on random URL's in emails and random attachments to get all those "features". So your advice to "modern users" is in fact in diametric opposition to Microsoft's historical policies, and is in fact impossible to meaningfully. It's fr
trail of tears? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not sure about tears... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:trail of tears? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:trail of tears? (Score:5, Funny)
I smell an opportunity..... Quick! Someone post some linux evangelism there!
Parent
Re:trail of tears? (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Actually a recent version of Thunderbird would in fact hose your email.
Apparently a bug crept in that when Thunderbird's spam detector detected a certain kind of spam, it proceeded to mark ALL the mail in the mailbox for deletion on the next compaction.
For those people who compact on exit, that was seriously bad news.
However, the fix was also easy - since all mail is in text files rather than proprietary binary formats. You simply dumped the Thunderbird release with the bug and downgraded to the last releas
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You are apparently wrong. Check out the link: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104956 [kde.org] Around comments 35-36, they state that the copy on the server is deleted.
Linux evangelism? No, hard reality (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes Linux has a better record. But then so does everyone else. Go ahead, name the operating system with a security record equal or inferior to Windows over the last decade.
*BSD? Nope, even if you exempt OpenBSD *BSD has a far better record than anything Microsoft has released in the past decade. And OpenBSD wears the crown when it comes to security. Usability, scalability and such are legitimate counter concerns though and explain why OpenBSD hasn't conquered the world.
Linux? Regardless of the distribution, if it is a large enough operation to keep up with the torrent of errata teh universe of OpenSource/Free Software generates they have all done better then Microsoft when it comes to timely updates. And with the bonus of the existence of "Enterprise" distributions for a good part of the decade that focus on errata updates that won't have unrelated breakage.
Apple? Their record with OS 8 and OS 9 beat Microsoft and OS X just upped their game.
Sun? HP? IBM? Please.
I'm not saying anyone should be proud of their security history and methodology, all software currently sucks ass. But since we have to use something NOW the question is why is the worst vendor on 90% of the world's machines?
What I'd like to see is a major concerted effort to raise software quality over adding new features. Engage the CS departments in teh universities to have all students audit some code. After all, most operating systems these days allow access to the source. And auditing real code would be a good experience for em. They would see first hand how wretched much of the code actually in use is firsthand. And if legends are writing that stuff they just might listen a bit more when when the prof is badgering about not hotdogging in the belief they are too leet to make those 'idiot' mistakes.
And for the Linux world I'd like to see the major distros come together to take every package not currently at 1.0 and finish em or dump em. Then stabilise the codebase, audit the crap out of it and then freeze them, only accepting bug fixes. And a nice side effect is they would all have the SAME version. The original project can still release new versions but it won't get integrated into a major stable distro until they announce a new feature complete and AUDITED version. Seriously, is there anything else that needs to go into glibc? So why not stabilize it, sudit it and then freeze it? We need a trusted core that we don't have to update several times per year. As computers become central to our civilization we need them to work a lot more than we need shiny new features.
Parent
Re:trail of tears? (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Lost email (Score:3, Interesting)
I advocate a training program for those people: once each year they should practice archiving everything they might ever want to save to one CD. Just one typical data CD. Not a DVD. One single CD. Anything which doesn't make it to the CD is random number filled.
Re: (Score:2)
Why? Is there a downside to having a large collection of "stuff"?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:trail of tears? The Unemployment line (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Speaking of tears, I had a good laugh when I read this:
I really don't intend to be mean, but this just took me back a few years to when I was using Windows. I had totally forgotten about updates that require reboots (well, kernel updates do, even on Linux). Amusing, to me at least.
Anyhow, OneCare has bugs, not that surprising really, all
Re: (Score:2)
Well, I learned something just now, I had no idea that that was a US cultural reference; I am, in fact, not from the US (lived there as a child for a few years, decades ago). Actually I didn't even think it might be a reference, so I di
Re:trail of tears? (Score:5, Funny)
Yes. Now I'll have to pay full price for viagra. I consider the two to be on par.
Parent
Re:trail of tears? (Score:4, Funny)
Say what you want about MS, I don't think they have started to tread near the "genocide" area yet.
I see you haven't tried to upgrade to Vista yet.
Parent
This is just another in a long series of failues (Score:3, Insightful)
If those idiots don't screw the world up by their own incompetence first they are going to get Windows Update 0wn3d and allow someone malevolent to wreak even worse havok on the world.
Seriously, I can't understand how any Microsoft product is permitted to be used in any role where failure isn't an option. Finance, military, medical, etc should have imposed a ban a decade ago, forbidding the stuff from even being connected to a network port inside the secure inner firewall. Instead we are installing the stuff into the engine room on our warships, giving it sole control of the propulsion system.
This is insanity on a global scale. A lot of people even seem to understand the danger yet are too afraid to speak up loudly enough to be heard.
Re:This is just another in a long series of failue (Score:2)
I can't understand why software is permitted to be used in any role where failure isn't an option.
But I get your point.
And they say FOSS doesn't get professional testing (Score:2)
Well, here's an example of how it can go wrong, no matter who you are. Of course, we're never surprised when Microsoft has a bug. It's really funny to me, actually. Huge company--
Re:And they say FOSS doesn't get professional test (Score:2)
Is this really true in a general sense? Obviously the "darling" FOSS projects do, but that's a very small percentage of the whole.
Linux users! Let's show some solidarity (Score:5, Funny)
Don't just sit there feeling smug! Every now and again, when you have a free moment, delete your mbox file, or the directory where the mail client of your preference stores its data. That'll go a long way towards helping Windows users to stop seeing us as arrogant and aloof and let them know we share their pain.
(And if you're really feeling altruistic, knock up a shell script which turns your machine into a spam-spewing zombie).
Re:Linux users! Let's show some solidarity (Score:5, Funny)
>
> knock up a shell script which turns your machine into a spam-spewing zombie
See, that's the problem with Linux. You have to do all that extra work to get functionality which just plain works under Windows.
c.
Parent
It's The Lt. Ripley Virus Scanner (Score:5, Funny)
PST file (Score:5, Insightful)
At least other MUAs usually have a separate file for each folder.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
when you receive a mail and your inbox is deleted, you "only" lose the recently received mails and not all those valuable mails you saved in the past.
Re:PST file (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
OneCare deletes nothing (Score:5, Informative)
Then, get a good AV package - or better yet, just exercise some fucking common sense and don't open that "Re: Malaca Superfund Stranded" email from "Roberta Plantagenet~=%" that has a "postcard.exe" attachment.
Boda Bing... (Score:2, Funny)
Running theme with Microsoft's "security"? (Score:5, Interesting)
Example 1:
Problem- Malware has carte blanche in XP to do damn near anything if it's run from an account with admin privileges.
Solution- UAC in Vista. ("You are moving your mouse cursor. Cancel or allow?")
Solution Sucks Because- UAC is so friggin' annoying with the popups that people will either shut it off or get in the habit of blindly clicking "OK," which means they are likely to give malware carte blanche to do damn near anything.
Example 2:
Problem- Viruses.
Solution- Windows OneCare Antivirus.
Solution Sucks Because- One infected email can cause your whole inbox to go bye-bye.
Great job, guys! The five years it took you to get this stuff perfect was really worth it!
Re:Running theme with Microsoft's "security"? (Score:5, Funny)
While still incredibly annoying, at least it's a SLIGHT step up from what we used to have. "Your mouse cursor has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect."
Parent
On a side note - Backup your files (Score:2, Insightful)
Yes, this is off-topic. Yes, OneCare sucks if it deleted someones email.
If you don't backup your data you will lose it someday. It's not a question of "if" it is "when". Your hard drive will eventually crash!
I feel so sorry for people that encounter this. My business provides remote backup via the web & we try to help people prevent events like this, but it doesn't matter. I think all of our remote backup customers have previously experienced data loss.
Hardly an unheard of problem (Score:3, Interesting)
Stop tagging all MS-related articles defective... (Score:3, Informative)
Yes, Microsoft has a lot of DRMed software, with Vista being the granddaddy of them all, but not everything Microsoft makes is defective by design. And in this particular case, the defect appears to be a bug rather than intentional anyway. So, please, save the "defectivebydesign" tag for situations where it's really warranted. Sure, it may be an amusing term, but when you use it where it doesn't apply, it waters down its meaning for the situation it was intended to be applied to: DRM.
Re:Stop tagging all MS-related articles defective. (Score:2)
Most of the things that we see this appear in are because we see an exploit. Such exploits in a better written file system wouldn't be an issue at all. So the defect is the design more th
baby, water (Score:2)
Ah! Ah! (Score:2, Insightful)
OneCare? (Score:3, Funny)
MS 'Once Cared' Email scanning (Score:3, Interesting)
Quarantine not Delete (Score:3, Informative)
This is being misreported all across the Web even though the linked article in every case makes it clear.
It's a serious flaw certainly and still more bad press for Vista, but this one is not nearly as severe as issues like DRM and Certificate-only drivers in Vista - it doesn't deserve the same level of press.
Re: Then the computer said... (Score:2)
Imagine my embarassment when I found out it was merely a bug, and my insurance won't pay for the exorcist or the damage done by the SWAT team.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:So what exactly is the problem? (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:So what exactly is the problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Counter example : AVG free (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
And Microsoft taught people, for years, to click on random URL's in emails and random attachments to get all those "features". So your advice to "modern users" is in fact in diametric opposition to Microsoft's historical policies, and is in fact impossible to meaningfully. It's fr
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Christ, what a bunch of idiots, especially the 'business' folk without a backup regime.