Danish, Western Websites Under Attack 1467
caese writes "The BBC is reporting that almost 900 Danish websites have been defaced by crackers angry about the recent controversy over cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad. From the article: 'What is extraordinary for this Danish case is the speed in which the community united'. Another 1600 or so Western websites have been defaced by the same group. The defacements have ranged from condemnation of the cartoons to outright calls for violence."
this has to stop (Score:5, Interesting)
"The speed with which the community united" (Score:5, Interesting)
bloggers... (Score:5, Interesting)
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The Ranting Sandmonkey, an Egyptian blog, illustrates just how bogus the MSM refusal to discuss the Danish cartoons "out of respect for Islam" is:
Freedom For Egyptians reminded me why the cartoons looked so familiar to me: they were actually printed in the Egyptian Newspaper Al Fagr back in October 2005. I repeat, October 2005, during Ramadan, for all the egyptian muslim population to see, and not a single squeak of outrage was present. Al Fagr isn't a small newspaper either: it has respectable circulation in Egypt, since it's helmed by known Journalist Adel Hamoudah. Looking around in my house I found the copy of the newspaper, so I decided to scan it and present to all of you to see.
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'The past as prologue'
http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]
1000 sites hacked? (Score:2, Interesting)
compare.. (Score:5, Interesting)
if it were a movie? (Score:5, Interesting)
You know, the usual.
Re:All I Can Say Is... (Score:3, Interesting)
Anybody even care about the other side? (Score:1, Interesting)
Basically, just take a look at how Moslims are being treated in Europe. It's bad. It may seem strange to us when they ask a government to do something about what a paper publishes. Freedom of the press and all that. Except the press is not totally free. Many European countries have hate speech laws. Anti-semitic speech; not allowed. Somebody publishes an irreverant version of the last supper? Catholic church succesfully sues. So if Moslims ask the governments to do something about the papers, they're seeking equal treatment. Why do Christians and Jews get protection, but they don't?
Then there's laws that intefere with their freedom of expression and religion. French law that bans wearing religious apparel in schools, when Islam is the only religion that strict about apparel. Countries considering banning burkas, which only Islam uses.
So yeah, these actions are way way out of proportion, but consider the source. Moslims see Europe as being hostile to their religion. This cartoon is not the first insult to them, and nor are these insults coming from just some newspaper. To them, it seems as if the governments of Europe are against them. Who wouldn't be angry about that?
Anyone think this is NOT about religion? (Score:2, Interesting)
Media (Score:5, Interesting)
See this comment made earlier today:
That particularly rung true to me because I like to digest information in quick hits. I like to check out the summaries of news items and if something is interesting, hear some commentary on it and dig a little deeper.
If all the headlines are "Muslims have taken hostages in..." or "A radical Islamic group exploded...", then people become conditioned to believe that Muslims and Islam are violent when they really aren't.
In a thread a while back, someone made a fantastic observation about Africa. The general premise was that most people still think that the entire continent of Africa is nothing more than corrupt leaders and starving children and this viewpoint was partly blamed on the media and mostly blamed on the influx and inundation of "Save the children" commericals in the 1990s.
Speaking of "no higher-order reasoning" (Score:1, Interesting)
So as you attack "fundamentalists" for "ignor[ing] higher-level representations," you make a completely wrong generalization about Intelligent Design. I don't know any ID people who are attempting to "shut down [scientific thought]." Sounds like you have an extremely simplistic understanding of ID to me, if you can call that an "understanding." Wait. Or maybe you are a fundamentalist who attacks other fundamentalists for their simplistic reasoning, using simplistic reasoning. Then this would make more sense.
Re:joke time (Score:2, Interesting)
Nobody with any sense wants to live in a culture where the Ayaotallah puts a contract out on you for writing a book.
Re:Here we go again... (Score:3, Interesting)
Whatever happened to Islam? What went wrong? I remember reading about old Baghdad, of the culture of the Arabian Nights, of the Arab astronomers who gave us half the names of our stars, of their preservation of the knowledge of old through the dark age of Europe, and their continual improvement upon it. About Richard and Saladin. About the glorious culture built in the name of Allah and the Prophet.
And this all bears no resemblance whatever to what passes for Islam today. Some say that old Araby never recovered from the depredations of Genghis Khan, others that it was the doing of European powers and the carving-up of the Ottoman Empire, others that it's about America and Israel, and the militant resistance to their imperialism cloaking itself in the banners of Islam just as the IRA claimed to be fighting as Catholics...
Something's horribly wrong with Islam today. But it's not something we can do anything about from outside. It's for them to change. We can help, if help is asked, but we can't be seen to impose our values on others by force - that just inspires more resistance.
So much hate (Score:2, Interesting)
In the US and Europe, a cartoonist that does something offensive, say in this case South Park using Jesus in an 'offensive' way, results in comlaints to the network and/or the creators.
In the most of the Middle East, a cartoon (which seems to me to be criticizing Islam for being violent, ironically), is met with smoldering generic rage against not just the cartoonists, or the newspapers, or the country, but all western nations.
I am dissapointed in the crackers though. I would have thought that repressed people that had internet access would be a little more aware and less sheep-like than the unwashed masses that are usually manipulated by their rulers.
My favorite quote from a bbc article yesterday went something like this: "This is a test by western nations to see if Muslims are radical or not. Death to them and their newspapers." I wonder why they think we think they might be dangerous...
Oman is a perfect example of what a determined, hard-working people behind a good ruler can do. Very inspirational, if only the rest of the Mid-East could follow this example. It's one of the nicest countries anywhere, and I have been all over the US, Europe, and Asia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oman [wikipedia.org] and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan_Qaboos [wikipedia.org]
Mighty Thin Line (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:All I Can Say Is... (Score:5, Interesting)
To put it another way, the single best way of pacifying a community is giving people something to lose. Nothing turns someone who doesn't think deeply into a peaceful person as quickly as possessions.
Re:Provocation? (Score:3, Interesting)
I've heard Iran may be playing games here, because of their predicament with the UN and their nuclear developments. Supposedly Denmark will be rotating to take control of whatever UN council Iran will be "brought in front of" soon. I wish I could find the article about this, but I read it a few days ago. Could be coincidence, but seems fishy as these cartoons were originally published many months ago. (Yeah I know about the Danish imams that tried to stoke the fire, but they too were travelling months ago.)
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Provocation? (Score:3, Interesting)
http://egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.com/2006/02/bo
Apparently the cartoons were published in Egypt back in October. The guy who posted that is in Egypt and has a pretty solid grasp on how the local dictatorships are using the cartoons to their advantage. Pretty much if you see a riot in Syria and Iran it's state sponsered.
Extreme Ignorance Slashdot (Score:3, Interesting)
Next, none of the attacks were done to reduce the number of infidels. Thats ridiculous logic even for the terrorists. Grats on you for believing it and the mods that modded you up. They all have political motives and something personal that drives them to the brink. The suicide bombers in Israel are typically kids who've lost family members from israeli aggression. It's a cycle of revenge for the people doing it and political for the people planning it.
Some Palestinian's openly admit they dont' do it for religious reasons and they themselves aren't very religous.
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Interesting)
And please don't play the nasty scripture quote card. You can find some backward bits in the Bible and the Torah too.
As a wise person once said, there is enough ambiguity in every religious text to allow people to make the kind of society they want.
Many Muslims were offended but are not reacting with hatred. By only caring about the extremists reaction you help them in their quest to own Islam.
Re:Cartoons (Score:1, Interesting)
I am sure they are dealt with quite swiftly, just like the editor in Jordan who decided to print the cartoons to show the people what all the cmomotion is about - he got fired; I wonder what's he up to now, and whether he is still alive.
Seems like Karl Marx was right when he said that religion is the opium of the masses - all those people are hooked up real good, and do whatver their religious overlord tells them to do. I'm sure the governments in the region are also throwing fuel on the fire, as any distraction from real issues is beneficial to their hold on power. But don't get me wrong, similar things are happening with Christianity, the way the people are motiviated to vote in one way or another.
In any case, I think protests in Europe should be dealt with harshly - those in Britain who were advocating violence should be locked up, have their legal/immigration status checked, and if possible deported to Iraq or Afghanistan; then we'll if their new "home" gives them a new perspective on their decision to hold signs saying "Freedom go to hell".
Re:very sad (Score:1, Interesting)
Minority? It's a Democracy! (Score:3, Interesting)
It's not a minority of Muslims in the case of Iran, there's a democratically elected government there, the country has officially been a Muslim republic for nearly thirty years now. The democratic government of Iran broke diplomatic relations with Denmark, over a cartoon drawn by somemone who has nothing to do with the government of Denmark. If the radicals were a minority they would have been voted out of government long ago.
As to your (b) assertion, there is considerable debate about that. The suicide terrorists do have a religious motivation, a very strong motivation, to do their acts. Even if, according to some interpretations they are wrong, there are also other interpretations. I have read a translation of the Quran, but, since I don't know the Arab language, I have never read the original. I don't know how compelling these interpretations are in the original, but it must be a very convincing argument for the people to be ready to die for it.
the rest of the Islamic people better get these violent ones in line or we are rightfully headed for a clash of ideals here.
My thoughts exactly. I always think it's very hypocritical when some, allegedly moderate, Islamic cleric decries violence, yet does nothing more concrete about it. A truly moderate and responsible Islamic cleric should be the first to turn in to the police the radicals who do so much to create hate aginst Islam in the rest of the world.
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Interesting)
The muslims I know are not actually activists, so they don't protest about cartoons either. But I would understand if they did (peacefully), even if they never went out to protest against Al Queda.
I haven't discussed anybody about the cartoons personally but if Turkish newspapers are any indication, most people feel violent protestors are much worse than cartoons themselves.
Marginalize the radicals - and take responsibility (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Interesting)
Minus the sarcasm, I agree with what you say: yes, it is time to rebel against big relegion. It has always been time to rebel against big religion. The best way to do this is by acknowledging that for any (big) religion it's much more important for this religion to promote itself than it is to promote religious values such as being friendly to your neigbour. What makes successful big religions so big and successful is that they value spreading the religion above all other values.
On the subject of why authoritarianism is always a bad idea, I highly recommend the book The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power [amazon.com] by Joel Kramer and Diane Alstad.
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Interesting)
I doubt you have, either, or you'd understand that your quotes are in the context of self-defense against those that are fighting to destroy Islam.
Re:From a dane (Score:3, Interesting)
The cartoons? Yes, they are tasteless. But that's really all; they are mildly offensive, if that.
Now, let me discuss an issue which offends me a great deal more than these stupid cartoons. Women's rights in Sharia observant muslim societies.
http://www.secularislam.org/women/bulletin.htm [secularislam.org]
Let's see:
Iran: According to Entekhab; an Iranian daily, on April 24, Ferdows B another Iranian woman was sentenced to death by stoning by an Islamic court in Tehran. Sima; another woman is awaiting to be stoned since Jan. 2002
Pakistan: On 17 April, Zafaran Bibi was sentence to death by stoning under section 8 of Zina Ordinance and in accordance with Islamic Shari'a in Kohat in the North West Frontier Province of Pakistan for willful extra - marital sex. Zafaran's Lawyer filed an appeal on 24 April. Since 1981, human and women's rights activists and organisations have been struggling to repeal this law.
Nigeria: Amina Lawal Kurami is awaiting death by stoning after Safiya Hussaini's sentence was overturned Safiya Hussaini was the first woman who could be sentenced to death for sex out of marriage in that country according to the Shari'a in modern times. The Islamic leaders that have fought vigorously to reintroduce the Islamic law, did not want outside pressure deprive them of this symbolic sentence. After overturning Safiya's case, on March 22, they put another woman; Amina Lawal Kurami on the death row of Islamic Shari'a.
Meanwhile, Amina finds herself on death row; she lives with her family and her baby in their village of Bakori in Kastina State in North Nigeria. The Judge ordered that the death sentence should be delayed for 8 months to allow Amina to breast-feed her baby. She was given 30 days to decide whether to challenge the sentence. Her baby the evidence in her case is unconscious of the flurry her birth has caused, she might very well grow up as an orphan and be seen as the cause of her mother's brutal and savage murder by political Islam and Islamic Shari'a in Nigeria.
Or how about in Pakistan? http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/features/ ihavearightto/four_b/casestudy_art07.shtml [bbc.co.uk]
Under the so-called zina (fornication) law in Pakistan, extramarital sex is punishable by public whipping or even stoning to death.
If a woman is raped, she runs a high risk of being charged with zina, particularly if she becomes pregnant. In order to prove an absence of consent, however, a woman is required to provide four witnesses to the rape, a near impossible task.
Or what about the mundane? Like Saudi Arabia's ban on women driving? Jokes about female drivers aside, this shows a profound disrespect for what we, in the west, recognize as fundamental political rights across most of our political/social spectrum.
Do you see people in the west burning Saudi/Iranian/Pakistani/Nigerian embassies?
Do you see us rioting in the streets when a women gets stoned to death, or any of the other massive rights violations that occur under strict sharia regimes?
I find the very notion that women are economically, politically, and socially inferior beings to men deeply insulting
That muslims anywhere in the world have the audacity to be violently upset about the Danish government's refusal to punish Jyllands-Posten while Shariat governments commit absurd numbers of human rights violations blows my mind. Frankly, people like that don't know right from wrong, and their opinion should not carry that much weight.
Don't misunderstand me, of course. I don't agree that you should go around insulting other people's belief systems. However, I would defend your right to insult my belief system, and I'd like to hope that no matter how you insulted me, I
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Interesting)
You don't need to insult those who might disagree with you by assuming they're some spoon-fed Fox News watchers. Your reply is exactly the same unconvincing stuff we see when large and powerful Christian groups do something extremely conservsative (anti-gay rhetoric, pro-censorship, etc) and someone links to a liberal Christian organization or says "Well, I'm Christian and I'm not like that."
Those are very disingenious arguments. Religion, as it exsits, is how its practiced by the lowest common denominator. In reaily, we don't see mass demonstrations against terrorism. Oddly enough, we see 'death to america' added to random protests like the recent ones over the cartoons. In reality, the Muslim world is living in something akin to the dark ages when you consider the power of religious authorities. In reality, fundamentalism isn't on the decline but on the rise. In reality, secularism is a dirty word in most Islamic cultures. In reality the silent moderate majority in Islam doesn't even exist. In reality, blasphemy is a serious crime in Muslim cultures. In reality, they don't consider it culture-based, but universal. In reality, Salmon Rushdie lived under British intelligence protection because of the fatwa declared on him. In reality, Cat Stevens wanted him dead too. In reality, the fatwa against Rushdie was widely supported. In reality, there is a double standard when it comes to mentioning muhammed -anywhere- for a variety of factors not the least of which is fear.
Reality and sophistry are not the same thing.
>Muslim leaders around the world have issued fatwa after fatwa condemning terrorism
And the pope is against the death penalty, but Catholics don't seem to have a problem with it en masse. Also, I question the sincerity of these fatwas. Not to mention that imams somehow had Danish flags ready to burn and mixed the cartoons with falsied cartoons showing muhammed in sexual situations. Its a bigger issue than just "Oh you're just not looking in the right places." Actually we are. And we've seen failed reform movement and failed reform movement. So I think people are justified in saying that Islam the religion and its followers are largely intolerant of free speech, especially when it comes to muhammed and they react uncivilized when faced with it.
It's pretty bad (Score:3, Interesting)
Our prime minister has been strong, but he was let down by opposition parties, Blair, Bush, Chirac, the EU and many others, who otherwise love to praise themselves for defending freedom. The American ambassador in Denmark said: "Noone defends freedom of speech more than we do." We called 'Bullshit', and that became clearer as it became known just how much diplomatic work it took to get some statement of support from George Bush. Blair is worse. These are the people who talked us into the Iraq war. We had expected they'd immediately help us in a pinch because of that. Possibly Denmark should pull out now.
Yes, they're vandalizing web sites - friend of mine had his defaced. DDoS'ing major newspapers, too. That's peanuts compared to the real attack that went on in the sphere of politics. The only thing that saved us from losing our freedom of press was when other European newspapers started reprinting the cartoons, and the islamists became confused about which flag to burn today.
US and UK press are subverted by the government - *NO* major media dared to print the cartoons! UK/US coverage has generally been very thing. Pravda (yes, the old Russian newspaper!) clearly did better, also appropriately naming the riots 'progroms'. Until of course Putin stepped in and told us that he didn't like the free press that much. Support from ordinary Americans has been good, with 'Buy Danish' campaigns to counter the boycott, and lots of support for the 'Rigth to insult' (yes :) and in general be free citizens.
The worst is over. Time to rebuild those web sites and the embassies they torched. I've reported the instigators of this crisis to the police for treason. We'll remember those who stood up for freedom. But I'm predicting more culture clashes like this in the future.
Cherish freedom. Others put their lives on the line to gain it before us. Our day may come before we know it.
Re:Disinfo Psyops (Score:3, Interesting)
That's right, we flag and ribbon wearing, Jesus loving, George Bush electing Americans have more in common with those Flag Burning, Mohammed loving, Hamas electing Muslims than we have with George Bush and the upper echelons of our government. That's what I always try to remember before I start hating. We need to love one another and try to work stuff out. How can we do that, though, if everyone remains ignorant and only listens to their leaders for direction, rather than trying to find the Truth for themselves? How can we find the Truth for ourselves when our leaders try to keep us ignorant?
It's interesting. That's why I'm staying to the sidelines. I turn my back on this whole war/hate thing. I won't even grace it with any more discussion than I already have. Why should I worry about the world when I have bills to pay, family to support, car payment, retirement in about 35 years, etc?
Conversely, I do think that people need to realize that their habits of buying expensive gas guzzling cars, bottled water, convenience items, etc. are directly leading us to a world war situation. There is no solution to the energy crisis that will affect us. The cost in energy for every human in the world to live like an American, or European or Japanese even (known for their efficiency) is higher than the available energy.
So, there are left two choices, and these are what those private meetings are about: #1 everyone gets less, #2 less people.
After the coming war, in which millions will die, millions of lives they believe are expendable, a new one world government will be in place. Ha ha, you say! Well, it's going to happen. Europe is one country now. What do you think WWII was about? WHO CONTROLS THE BANKS. England won. We won.
This war is going to decide who runs the real world show, and will also cleanse the world of excess human lives, change the structure of the middle east and place it under the control of a "neutral" government, a republic of countries. Their success will lead to the establishment of an even larger world government with one stable currency--energy. In addition, one world language and religion will be necessary. Those who don't wish to follow will be walled off, executed in the war, or given manufactured disease so it will look like an accident.
Or maybe not. Who knows what will happen. I know this much, I really don't care.