Danish, Western Websites Under Attack 1467
caese writes "The BBC is reporting that almost 900 Danish websites have been defaced by crackers angry about the recent controversy over cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad. From the article: 'What is extraordinary for this Danish case is the speed in which the community united'. Another 1600 or so Western websites have been defaced by the same group. The defacements have ranged from condemnation of the cartoons to outright calls for violence."
Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
Serious note: Lets take a look at this situation.
Attack: Cartoon
Defense: Death threats, burn down buildings, deface websites, protests, and the list goes on.
Conclusion: Overkill?
Here we go again... (Score:3, Insightful)
I mean seriously, if a supermarket had a sale on steak and put up cartoons of Vishnu, you wouldn't see Hindus violently protesting. Neither if they had a sale on pork and put cartoons in the window of YHWH.
People need to take a serious chill pill...
Flags burned (Score:2, Insightful)
Go figure.
very sad (Score:5, Insightful)
Provocation? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, time to start the popcorn since I can't do much but watch. [1] Don't worry -- I won't let the tinfoil hat mess up the microwave popcorn.
I don't understand... (Score:5, Insightful)
Seems a bit counter-productive to me.
Let's see here... (Score:5, Insightful)
I protest that characterization by calling for or comitting acts of terrorism and violence, both in the real world, and on the internet.
Nope, no hypocrisy here!
All I Can Say Is... (Score:5, Insightful)
That would be indefensible by the media.
Hey, come to think of it, there really isn't a lot of that rioting and setting-things-ablaze-for-days thing at all here in The West. Why d'you suppose that is?
g'head, g'head, discuss this amongst yourselves...
Re:very sad (Score:5, Insightful)
Bad people do bad things. It doesn't matter if they're Muslim, American or Buddist. I'll defend every muslim who doesn't participate in a riot and related actions until they're either all killed, or I die.
No one really cares about the cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
The cartoons are just an excuse. The cartoon riots are about rioting, not about cartoons. Rioters riot for fun and profit. Protests are arranged to gain political power for the people arranging them.
Web sites are defaced for the same reason bricks are thrown through windows. It's the same reason Reginald Denny [wikipedia.org] was beat up. It's a combination of hate and the idea that "we can get away with it this time".
I advise not enabling the rioters and web-page defacers by giving them what they want: attention, concessions, etc.
Re:Here we go again... (Score:5, Insightful)
But then you seem to restrain yourself from saying outright, that Muslims are freaking savages. Even though you did mention that "war seems to be what they want". I guess you were about to say what was on your mind, but political correctness and liberal virtues so cherished on Slashdot made you refrain.
Well, I'll say it for you. Too many Muslims are freaking savages. Yeah I'm sure there are peaceful and civilized ones out there, but if you look at the ratio of peaceful citizens to raving nuts and compare it to that of Christian nations or Buddhist nations or Shinto nations or whatever, you can't help but come to the conclusion that Muslim, as it exists in the real world today (and not in theory), is a barbaric, violent, repressive religion.
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Insightful)
Seriously, there is a disturbing lack of perspective and proportionality amongst these savages. Yes, savages, because that is exactly what the extreme nutjobs (those making the death threats [smh.com.au]) are - xenophobic troglodytes who can't tolerate any conduct by others that violates their strict code.
Semi-OT: On Violence (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm agnostic. I get offended when my state's motto is "With God, all things are possible". I don't like hearing "God Bless America" every time George Bush opens his mouth. I do understand I live in a country with religious freedom, and I'm just going to have to take it. If I can't take it anymore, I'll move to a country that supresses religious liberties.
Many of the European Muslims think they can get the good benefits of a liberal democracy (decent jobs, market-based economy), while asking for special status for their religious beliefs. Someone needs to tell them part of living in a liberal democracy is having thick skin.
Re:joke time (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:this has to stop (Score:5, Insightful)
That's not gonna happen as long as a) the rest of the world needs oil, and b) the muslim world is sitting on most of it.
Re:this has to stop (Score:2, Insightful)
They're at home living their lives, while the nutters are out dancing for the international news crews at the embassies. Would you want to go out into one of those riots if you weren't going to fit in 100%?
Re:joke time (Score:2, Insightful)
A tenet of almost all religions is that Theirs' is the One True Religion. They can't all be right.
All religions are superstitious fairy tales without a shred of proof.
(and don't call atheism a religion; atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby)
Re:this has to stop (Score:2, Insightful)
No higher-order reasoning (Score:5, Insightful)
Our websites? What about our embassys (Score:2, Insightful)
If those cartoons were published in the US or a other big country, they would not have dared to react like this.
perhaps you should read the news (Score:5, Insightful)
Bottom line is these 14th century nitwits armed with modern technology are a danger to everyone for their ease of manipulation and lack of reason when it comes to anything remotely regarding Islam.
I really doubt Moslems are going to survive in their form for another 50 years. They either blunt themselves (as Christians did) or they're eliminated just like every other non-viable belief system. (Shakers, zoarastrians, et al)
Re:Flags burned (Score:4, Insightful)
Here's what burns me: We've got radicals who have done awful, awful things, things which should be decried from every mosque on the planet. Flying planes into buildings, killing olympic athletes, sawing off people's heads, blowing up children, shooting children in the back...
And none of this raises any serious objections, concerns, or protest in the Islamic world. Sure, we see the occasional newspaper column decrying the violence, but it simply does not seem to be important to the man on the street that his religion is abused this way.
Publish a cartoon now, and we get vast outpourings of outrage.
There's something *so* very wrong with this picture, I don't know where to begin.
Re:very sad (Score:2, Insightful)
Reasons for the anger (Score:2, Insightful)
It doesn't matter if they depicted Mohammed as a peace-loving hippie, the reaction would have probably been the same.
Another big factor was the spread of fabricated cartoons [typepad.com] and the incitement of violence through rumours spread via sms messages [aunty-spam.com].
And of course, the fact that a few years ago Jyllands-Posten rejected Jesus cartoons [guardian.co.uk] on the grounds that their readers would find them offensive.
Re:perhaps you should read the news (Score:3, Insightful)
"You know what we think of you? We think, one hundred years ago, you were living in tents and chopping each other's heads off and we think that's where you'll be in another hundred years"
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, but as a friend of mine (who is actually over in the Middle East) puts it: "This whole [Danish/Muslim] dispute is simply a lightning rod for a backward theocratic movement which is unable to successfully compete in a modern world of ideas and business."
In other words, it's like when you fight with your wife over the dishes. You're not really fighting about the dishes; it's just the symptom that manifests to indicate a deeper issue.
Re:this has to stop (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, these are still by far the most of this billion sized group. That's why we aren't having an all out world war about this.
Re:Here we go again... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:joke time (Score:3, Insightful)
You know that old chestnut is wearing pretty thin these days. Every time these backwards fucks riot and start killing Westerners, we in the West are met with a politically-correct barrage of the old party line of "Oh, those are just a small number of extremists. Islam is actually a religion of peace, love, understanding, kindness, hugging puppies, etc." The problem is, they AREN'T in small numbers and they AREN'T being met with masses of much-larger crowds of Muslims calling for peace and puppy-hugging. It doesn't strike me that what we're actually SEEING holds up the party line very well.*SAY* what you want about Islam, but actions always tell the truth much better than words.
-Eric
Re:this has to stop (Score:3, Insightful)
So they are looking at a future where they won't have much income.
The oil wealth has gone into a few pockets. They'll invest that in Europe/China/USA/Japan. It will not benefit the other guys.
Re:I want a cartoon (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that a series of harmless cartoons released by one independent newspaper, which I assume to be owned by a private corporation, was enough to set off such a widespread violent reaction in Muslim countries just goes to show why the world as a whole has such a negative view of the Muslim religion and Islam as a whole. Perhaps if they would've simply left well enough alone or gone about their protests in a peaceful, diplomatic way, the cartoons would've stopped long ago. At the very least, they might have gained some respect and reputation as a peaceful religion. Instead, they've reinforced the very image which sparked the protest in the first place.
Re:perhaps you should read the news (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Anti-semitism cartoons from Arabs news papers (Score:4, Insightful)
No, the same cartoons in Arab new papers months ago without a hint of protests and death threats.
Hypocrisy? Yes.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a little strange to me, but before this Danish cartoon incident I was siding with the 'doves', yet now I find myself siding with the hawks. Freedom of speech is at least as sacred to me as the prophet is to a muslim person. It's such a crucial part of the very foundation of our culture. People died for it. There can be no compromise on this issue. No apologetic placating. Particularly not for the type of murderous trash who are willing to violently burn/kill/vandalise/hack/destroy etc. for some cartoons. I realise that (a) it is a minority of Muslims and (b) they are actually behaving against the very teachings of the Prophet and Islam, but dammit, the rest of the Islamic people better get these violent ones in line or we are rightfully headed for a clash of ideals here.
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
I believe there is an exception to be made in the case of muslims. Violence is a tenet in their religion as reaction to many things. Hell, it is in their koran to kill blasphemers, and infidels.
I don't know of any other religion in the world, that outright preaches violence as a direct approach to anything offensive.
Re:perhaps you should read the news (Score:4, Insightful)
I realize that you probably didn't mean it that way, but this is what is frustrating about this whole mess to a Dane, like myself, that millions of muslims suddenly hate all Danes, when the "crime" was commited by a single silly newspaper.
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
If there's anything that this is proving, it's that the crazies are not in the minority here. 500,000 people chanting "death to america, death to israel?"
Granted, while most Muslims will not actively torch embassies and behead infidels, they genuinely beleive the entire world should be forcibly conquered by their religion.
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Insightful)
Good, Evil, and Subjectivity (Score:2, Insightful)
Good and evil... right and wrong... even noble and dastardly... these are the social mileposts by which we measure ourselves and others.
In a rush to apply these labels, though, we often forget that these are not objective measurements. They are completely subjective, guided by our upbringing, our surroundings, our faith (or lack thereof), even our mood.
And when we seriously disagree with somebody elses viewpoint we often choose to label them "evil". One large, omnipresent example of this type of labelling occurred with the destruction of the World Trade Center.
It's difficult to rally people with a cry of, "Those people with different lives, values and backgrounds who felt it necessary to challenge us in a way that is foreign to our thinking must be dealt with in some fashion!"
Far more effective is the battle cry of, "The terrorists have engaged in evil acts, and must be hunted down and punished!"
Problem is, "evil" is an EXTREMELY subjective term. By many tenets of their upbringing and faith, these Muslims have every right to find the U.S. to be "evil", "decadent", even "doomed". By their morality, they are justified. They aren't wrong, because everything is a point of view. And I guarantee you that when they have their 8:00 a.m. morning meeting to discuss the agenda, the title on the page is not "Evil To Spread This Period". They firmly believe they are both "right" and "good".
There is no such thing as objective morality. There is no universal "good" or "evil". We choose to define these things the way we do because of who we are. But to expect the rest of the world - all 6 billion of us - to toe the line with respect to values is ridiculous.
I know the religious will claim that absolute "good" and "evil" exist. They'll also almost certainly believe that their particular religion is the source of these definitions. The problem is that religions are neither universal nor consistent within themselves. To declare ones own religion to be correct is to declare others to be incorrect. Many people will claim exactly that, though. To those people I have no response. There can be no meaningful discussion with somebody possessing complete, unshakeable faith. Such faith leaves no room for the idea that one might not be completely right.
But even within our own social sphere it's a big wash of grey. It's wrong to steal a stereo. It's not really wrong to steal bread when your child is starving - and no judge would sentence anybody for it. It's wrong to cheat on your fiance... unless he's a jerk and you're on board the Titanic and you meet a guy you dig - then it's romantic. It's wrong to kill. But it's not wrong to kill to defend your family. Everything is situational.
Western governments are big on tossing out the label of "evil" as an absolute. It's a useful tactic, employed by every government in wartime. The vilification of the enemy is practically a necessity. If the troops see the other side as thinking, feeling, fully-formed people, they will not kill them with the same expediency. Even more critical is the process of defining its own actions as "good", so that they do not come under scrutiny in the near term. After all, if we're "good" we shouldn't have to adjust our foreign policy (as an example).
We are a world at war. That has really only been brought home to the average North American in the last five years. And things are going to get worse before they get better.
But we can't expect to make any headway on peace through any means except by conquest unless we finally try to truly see both sides of each issue. And we can't do that until we stop painting everything in black and white. As long as we call a group "evil" we will never be able to see their side. It's a blinding mechanism.
Good and evil... right and wrong... judgments. Judgments that get in the way. These terms should only be used in measuring ourselves and our actions, because we are the only ones for whom these evaluations apply. As soon as you start evaluating others in this way, you are on extremely shaky ground.
Re:Cartoons (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm a Christian, and I'm ashamed to share a religion with many Christian fundamentalists. So I can fully sympathise with the majority of Muslims who are appalled at what Muslim fundamentalists do. And I have learned the hard way that people like you - who attempt to stereotype people based on their belief system, instead of recognising that psychopaths and lunatics can be found among people of all religions and none - are to be, if not despised, then pitied. Because you're part of the problem, and it's people like you, who sow only intolerance and who wish to suppress any religions you don't follow, who are primarily responsible for fundamentalism and religious terrorism the world over.
Re:I want a cartoon (Score:3, Insightful)
I think we're all having a little trouble here fully understanding the differences between western and middle-eastern cultures. And yes, I do think they are over-reacting. However, the fundamental cultural differences are so profound that we just can't understand their reactions, and we see them as being backward and stupid.
Middle-eastern culture is very old. They have been stuck with self-appointed leaders for far longer than we have. One might argue that this has caused them to stagnate while the rest of the world has moved forward. Their entire culture is still very much religion-oriented, while we have managed to create a secular society where choice and individuality are the most important things. Not only that, but attitude, and atmosphere in these countries is much more reminiscent of how it was two hundred years ago or more, while for us, our own society is NOTHING like it was two hundred years ago.
Iraq has just started voting. Not that I agree with the reasons that Bush felt he had for forcing it upon them, but it has happened. One way or another, even if it is a slower process than it was for western culture, they will move on, into the future, and the radicalists of the past will be left behind. Sooner or later these kinds of events will serve to prove to them how irrational it is to live in the past. Sooner or later they will learn to secularize their own societies, and they will learn to appreciate the virtues of individuality and freedom of speech. I predict that this movement will be inevitable, eventually, even if it comes slowly. In the meantime, however, there is a massive cultural GAP that we are all having a lot of difficulty understanding and dealing with.
The only way to do so rationally is to be understanding and accepting, helping them along as they learn to live in the modern global culture.
Creating mean cartoons made specifically to needle them is not very constructive. But on the other hand, these kinds of self-criticizing charicatures are just another part of living in our post-modern world. They will need to learn to role with the punches as well as the rest of us have learned to do.
Re:Cartoons (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, Muslim governments are trying to control the terrorists, but governments always do that sort of thing. Where are the clerics denouncing the suicide bombers and those who send them? Why is there not a loud RELIGIOUS opposition to these people?
Because if there isn't, then the world is quite JUSTIFIED in believing that the terrorists are right when they claim that Islam teaches them to kill innocent people just because they belong to a nation that they claim are "enemies of Islam". And if Mohammed really did teach such things, then the caricatures of him are completely justified.
So don't attack the messenger! Don't attack the cartoonist who says "this is the picture that Muslims are showing us of Mohammed." Attack the people who are GIVING the world this picture of Mohammed.
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Insightful)
Let's blame the people who are really giving Islam a bad name, and stop pretending the problem exists only inside of Rupert Murdoch's hallowed halls.
It would happen here, too. (Score:2, Insightful)
But this is not a fair comparison--Christianity does not hold the same moral status here that Islam does there. But we have our sacred cows. Imagine what would happen here if the press across the Middle East ran any of these over and over, in increasing frequency despite our protests and objections:
- A series of cartoons showing black people being lynched, raped, and whipped, with the word "Niggers" appearing prominently in them in various ways
- A series of cartoons showing famous molested children like Jean-Benet being graphically fondled by prominent political figures like George W. Bush and Dick Cheney
- A series of cartoons graphically and gleefully depicting the 9/11 disaster victims meeting their deaths in various amusing ways
You can bet that if these kept getting reprinted in the prominent Arab press, protests here would rise to violence, to riots, and to a general call by the citizenry to GO TO WAR WITH THE ENTIRE REGION, NOW. The streets would not be full of Americans congratulating Islam on its embracing of free speech if a cartoon with Bush's hand up a little girl's wa-wa or MLK hanging from a tree were being shown on the news every night.
That is what we have done to them: assault their sacred cow, make fun of their deepest moral conviction. Those cartoons have one possible effect: to offend someone. They are not clever, or original. They do not lend a new insight to anyone in the west. They're just designed to create outrage.
And that they have done.
Re:Cartoons (Score:4, Insightful)
Because there are consequences to them for doing so. In radical Islamic countries, there is no such consequence - you might be applauded for executing such a feat as killing a Christian or Jew.
"If you had been Danish, we'd kill you." - some Lebanese protester to a Norwegian journalist.
A Danies viewpoint (Score:3, Insightful)
What happened was
A Danish newspaper, who have been at the forefront of an ongoing hetz against immigrants and especially muslims, published a number of cartoons depicting Mohammed in ways that can only have been meant to express contempt. Further, if you have been following Danish news, you will know just how vitriolic and hatefilled the debate has been there for a very long time; and this is prominent politicians we're talking about. This has even been commented on in foreign news, with horror and disgust. To a moslem depicting the profet is totally forbidden, apparently, which the newspaper in question certainly knew; and not surprisingly a group of Danish moslems vented their anger in their home countries.
Personally I think it could have been defused then and there if the newspaper or the prime minister had had the decency and backbone to simply apologize; after all, there is such a thing as simple politeness, and no one would need to give up fundamental freedoms etc. How much would it actually have cost anybody if our PM had said something like: 'It is not Danish policy to insult people of other cultures, and I apologize for the distress these insensitive pictures have been published. However, I can not dictate what the newspapers print'? Not a thing.
Instead there has been a load of stilted nonsense about 'freedom of speech' - what a load of crap. Freedom is not the right to get away with whatever you do - there is a responsibility for all your actions as there should be. If you kick a hornets' nest, you'll get stung.
So, to sum it up: Denmark is festering in xenophobia and inflamed rhetoric; a newspaper decides to try to cash in on stirring up the shit and behave a spoiled brat; instead of being mature and apologize, the West is spiteful. Whatever one may think of the moslem world, this is simply not an honourable way to behave.
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Insightful)
I think that's just an excuse.
I know how seriously they take that thing about no graven images. I remember in one of my art history classes an extensive lecture about how some sects believed any images of people/things at all were forbidden, so the developed a purely geometrical art style. However, they're really mad about their socioeconomic position in Europe and having equal access to government services and jobs, and being stereotyped as thugs and/or terrorists. This isn't a logical response to somebody ELSE breaking your religion's code of ethics, but it is the general response when people feel oppressed.
That's what all the strife in France was about. That's what this is about. That's what the Watts Riots were about. That's what happens when you have a bunch of poor, uneducated people living in slums with no hope. Some stupid little thing happens, a bunch of people with no jobs or money start talking about it and making each other angrier, then the start breaking shit. Then all of the others figure it's okay because there's a lot of people doing it and it'll give them relative anonymity. By contrast, landowners and white-collar job holders with an investment in the system don't rebel against it.
Respecting "Religion"... (Score:3, Insightful)
But, the thing is, too many religions are also political philosophies. Once you bring your religion into politics, your religion should be fair game for ridicule, insult, or any sort of nasty speech. Islam, (as well as Christianity, but I could go on and on about that, so I will leave it out of this post), is also a political ideology. It is being used as a basis for laws, for systems of government... Heck, even where I live in Canada people are pushing to have Sharia Law enforced in family courts!!!
Once you cross that line, then watch out. There is nothing wrong with insulting Islam as a political ideology, any more than there is anything wrong with insulting Socialism, or Capitalism, or Facism, or Communism. There is nothing wrong with making an insulting cartoon of Muhammad, than making an insulting cartoon of G. W. Bush. It is all part of free political discourse. Political satire is a of democracy and free expression.
If you don't want your religion insulted, then don't try to force your religious ideals on me through the political system. If you are promoting Intelligent Design, or Sharia Law, or anything else on me and at my expense through the political system, I have a right to call out your retarded political philosophy.
Instead of defacing websites, any person who is upset about having their ideology insulted should adopt the lifestyle of the 5th century from which Islamic philosophy began... That way they will not have to be exposed to a diverse global media of the 21st century. If you are going to adopt an ancient political ideology, you need an economic system and technologic lifestyle that is compatible with your belief system. It has worked pretty well for the Amish and Mennonites.
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Insightful)
For instance, you could go into the office tomorrow and tell your boss you think he's a complete asshole and a clueless fuck, yes?
Even if that was your opinion, you would probably moderate your free speech either somewhat, or completely, or be out of a job real soon.
I too think the reaction of the muslim community is completely over the top, but don't kid yourself, you are not a dove by a long shot.
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
The question is, how do most Muslims understand the teachings of the Prophet? If most of them really do think it's okay to murder people because they are "infidels", then we have a major problem. In that case, it's pretty much our DUTY to publish the cartoons, and more.
But if most of them do NOT think that, then it is THEIR duty (and certainly in their best interests) to put out their alternate message, and to tell the world that murder and kidnappings are NOT what Islam teaches. If the passages you quoted above are in the Koran (and not taken out of context), and Bin Ladin and his ilk interpret them the way they seem to read, and the rest of the Islamic world either keeps silent, then they have only themselves to blame for the consequences -- they can hardly blame the people who take Bin Ladin at his word that he is speaking for Muslims everywhere.
Re:Cartoons (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Cartoons (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Insightful)
I have an idea... let's refuse to tolerate violence in the name of any religion or other bullshit irrational belief system. Those who respond to non-violent expression with violence display an inability to reason, and it is a waste of time to try to reason with them. A response in the form of bullet seems appropriate ;)
The Danish Mohammed cartoon will is going to be the root cause of World War 3. Discuss.
Re:Cartoons (Score:4, Insightful)
The 6:00 news shows have been doing alot of interviews with "Muslims on the street" (I'm from New York, lots of 'em in Jersey and Brooklyn) And it's very hard to look at how angry they are and not think that they would sound just like Imam Al-Halal Al-Salami Al-Muhammed if the cameras were off. Saying blatantly hypocritical things like "Yes, there should be free speech, but not for blasphemy."
Re:contradict (Score:3, Insightful)
And that makes them different from the average western people
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Cartoons (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem isn't that leaders "around the world" don't do that... the problem is that the leaders in the countries that are encouraging this, and sending money to do more of it, and celebrating it when it happens are not condemning it. What good does it do when some cleric in Malaysia says that some despondent, crazy Syrian kid shouldn't be listening to the non-stop encouragement to kill westerners? It's the people shouting the non-stop encouragement that have to change, and they don't want to. So the only option is to actually stop them, and the reaction from most governments in the Islamic world has been to be somewhat helpful, at best, while other people do it for them.
Do you really think that the collection of murderous bomb plotters that just "escaped" from a Yemeni prison were just such geniuses that they got out despite the best efforts of local government and religious leaders to keep them from running out and blowing up another ship? No. They got out through a tunnel to neighboring mosque. You know, one of those buildings run by Islamic religious leaders. You know, the ones that are not preaching peace? Those are the people that keep stirring this crap up, and make the embassy bombers, the hijackers, the journalist beheaders and the people that blow up kids in restaurants feel comfortable and morally correct. The religious leaders are the problem, and their peers aren't doing enough to showcase that hypocrisy to the world. Every time one of these pro-suicide clowns gets airtime on Al Jazeera, 100 more rational clerics should be screaming from the rooftops about how evil they are. Coverage differences does not account for the comparative silence from those quarters. You know it, they know it, and the people throwing firebombs at embassies over cartoons know it.
Re:Let's see here... (Score:3, Insightful)
Blatant Anti-Semitism in a government has historically indicated a tendency to unprovoked war and attacks from said government. All GWB is saying is that it's yet another reason to ensure that the loonies over there don't get thier hands on any nukes. Basically another straw breaking the camel's back. It's not the only reason, but it's a darn good one.
All your reaction says to an outside observer is that you don't like GWB and will take any reason, no matter how ridiculous, to attack him. Basically it makes you look unreasonable and immature. I'm sure you didn't mean for it to come out that way, but it does. In the future I would recommend that you temper your emotion with some rational thought when discussing matters of world politics.
Re:Cartoons (Score:1, Insightful)
Who cares the what and the how. If Islamics want to be considered moderate, they better muzzle the extremists.
Re:perhaps you should read the news (Score:5, Insightful)
September, 2005: A series of cartoons is published in the Danish newspaper Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten, depicting the Prophet in a number of unflattering ways. Nobody notices.
October, 2005: Nobody notices again.
November and December, 2005: Still no response. It's almost like nobody cares.
Early January, 2006: During the Hajj, an annual pilgrimage in which millions of people travel to Mecca, negligence on behalf of the organizers . Earlier that month a hotel near Mecca had collapsed, killing at least seventy people. Both tragedies were seen as being caused by the carelessness of the Saudi government, and the metaphorical poo-poo started to fly. [wikipedia.org]
Nobody heard about it in North America because they were too concerned with more important things like Nick and Jessica's break-up and whether Angelina and Brad were likely to get back together.
Later That Same Week: The Saudi press, which is completely controlled by the government, discovers to its shock that a mere four months ago a foreign newspaper with a limited circularion had printed a few poorly drawn cartoons which nobody seemed to care about. Sensing a far more important story at hand the Saudi government drops all plans to criticize themselves for their fatal blunders at the Hajj and instead starts running up to four stories a day about the horrors of infidel cartoonists. The locals eat it up.
The European and American media sense a big boost to their circulation and ratings, eat it up with just as much fervor, and start reprinting the cartoons. This is a bit like throwing water on a grease fire, and it leads us to where we are today.
The dog is being wagged, folks.
Re:A Danies viewpoint (Score:3, Insightful)
And if the West is expected to be so respectful of islam, why does Al Jazeera show videos of hostages heads being cut off?
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Insightful)
He is not misinformed. You are deluded into thinking the majority of Islam is "normal and moderate".
This "demonstration against the cartoons" is actually just an annaul holy event. You go there next year, you'll see roughly the same number of people marching there. Its just that some of the Islamic radical leaders are getting up in front of this crowd and railing against the cartoons and shouting things like "death to America".
The fact that the masses attend this stuff without shouting down the "radical
leaders" means they co-sign it.
The problem with Islam is that no one will stand up to the mullahs.
There is no moderate Islam, because there is no voice for it. The entire
religion is held hostage by the "few radical leaders".
From a dane (Score:2, Insightful)
Sure, freedom of speech is great, but it comes with a lot of responsibility --- a responsibility Jyllands-Posten (the paper that originally published the drawings) apparently can't handle. I think I'm pretty much your average christian-by-culture/atheist-by-belief dane and I understand why the muslims are so pissed! These drawings show nothing but disrespect for the entire muslim community, both here and in the rest of the world.
Jyllands-Posten even refused to print some drawings joking with Jesus back in december, 'cause as the editor said, it would offend the readers...(!) (The drawings were something like "rising from the dead doing a double somersault" and stuff - pretty hilarious actually.) How's that for hypocrisy?
Now, I don't think the government should start apologising on behalf of the paper, neither should they start censoring the danish papers in any way --- the danish papers should simply learn a thing or two about respect for others and their religion(s).
Jyllands-Posten has even been rumoured (e.g. on CNN) to want to print the Iranian holocaust-drawings, but the editor in chief (is that what it's called?) has disputed that. Hopefully he won't change his mind.
The Muhammad drawings were stupid and absolutely needlesly provocative --- it has nothing to do with freedom of speech and it never had.
Freedom of speech != duty to speak.
Re:Name one (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Cartoons (Score:2, Insightful)
This is the inherent problem with anything based on religion or belief; it always lacks a logical base of right and wrong.
Re:Semi-OT: On Violence (Score:3, Insightful)
part of living in a liberal democracy is having thick skin.
Very nicely put. Much of the problem today is we as a society have lost much of that concept, too many people today have the opinion that they should never be offended. My opinion is that when we are offended by someone else's speech we should be grateful; grateful that we live in a society where it is our right to speak in such a way that may offend others.
If we cannot stand for others in our society to exercise the rights we all have we will slowly lose those rights.
Re:Cartoons (Score:4, Insightful)
The interested reader can look up the passages cited here in the Project Gutenberg triple-translation of the Koran [gutenberg.org]. But unless I am very much mistaken, the "idolators" that the Prophet is railing about are not Jews and Christian, who are of course the ones who do have monotheistic faiths, but the polytheistic communities of Arabia which were his contemporaries. Note the numerous citations of "Moses" and "Jesus" in that work, in by no means critical terms.
What a study of the Koran does not reveal however is everything which has happened since that time, including the fatwas [islamtoday.com] issued by religious authorities, such as the this one prohibiting making images of people and animals [islamtoday.com]. I think one has to understand this side of the religion as well as the Koranic side in order to form a complete opinion.
Re:A Danies skewed viewpoint (Score:5, Insightful)
If you kick a hornets' nest, you'll get stung.
So we should make our freedom's subject to the fear of reprisals. The Hamas leader said that if someone would have been successful in acting on the Ayatollah's fatah to kill the Novelist S. Rushdie then these cartoon would not happen.
Whatever one may think of the moslem world, this is simply not an honourable way to behave.
And burning embassies and issueing death threats to cartoonist for lines on a piece of paper is? Actually the death and kidnapping threats extended to any citizen from the countries that published these cartoons regardless of affiliation.
I sure hope you do not represent the average Danish thinking.
Re:Let's see here... (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, islamic law isn't the law of the world, and they really need to "get over it". The world certianly does not revolve around them or their beliefs. With a free press and free speach philosophy, nothing is ever sacred, and cannot be from someone who wants to print or write something.
Funny...you never see a bunch of Baptists rioting or burning things if someone does an editorial cartoon criticizing them....
Re:Cartoons (Score:1, Insightful)
Actually if you study history Mohammed and this ban of followers actually attacked far more people than ever attempted to attack them. They destroyed temples, villages, killed people, forcefully took women as their "wives" when people would not convert.
Islam was NOT born from a defensive movement, it was born out of offensive expansion. From day one the main stream members were violent.
And no I am not defending any other religion. Just stating the facts.
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Insightful)
Most everything is portrayed as X vs Y. How often is a third party brought into a debate so that people can see that there is another option to the extreme posturing these others guys are doing.
IMHO, the media is playing with fire if they allow Muslims to be demonized. To paraphrase Dune: The oil must flow.
Just like Jon Stewart Says (Score:3, Insightful)
What kind of protest would that be?
Neo-cons playing both side like a fiddle? (Score:2, Insightful)
Know that the neo-cons are using this incident to inflame passions against Muslims in a build up to an attack upon on Iran. Think before you condemn all Muslims or their governments for the destructive acts of a few. If you do that you are playing into the hands of neo-cons who are counting on western hatred of Muslims to justify their imperialist plans to make over the middle east, most likely to prevent any country from trading oil in Euros, and to "defend" Israel who has angered the Arab world by violating international law by illegally expanding it's 1967 green line borders into the Palestinian territories.
Demonization of an entire people based on their religion is always a bad idea, did the holocaust teach us nothing?
Minor point (Score:3, Insightful)
If these are really accurate samplings of the respective texts, it would seem pretty clear why the Islamic faith seems to have such a violent face to it. There is a big difference in reading about how your god is going to punish the faithless, and being told it is your duty.
(Intelligent musings aside, and straight into offensive blasphmey) Perhaps Allah isn't powerful enough to smite the unbelievers himself. Has to recrute people to do it for him. If he were all badass like the cristian god in the old testament, he would just zap people with bolts from the blue.
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Insightful)
leaders" means they co-sign it.
That statement is a generalization and is absurd.
Re:perhaps you should read the news (Score:3, Insightful)
One of the cartoons pointed at islam being intrinsically linked to terrorism. Much of the response went along the lines: "Stop saying that, or we'll blow up your little, beautiful country!". Example here
Instead of hiding, Tony Blair and the other cowardly politicians should have taken the opportunity to point out the obvious fact that islam and terrorism has, in the public eye, been closely linked. And that to avoid any further satire like that, a stronger rejection of terrorism is needed by the islamic countries and society. That would have caused some islamic soul-searching and hopefully less terrorism. He even had his own capital bombed, he should catch such opportunities.
Re:Xymphora Blogspot Thought Experiment (Score:5, Insightful)
"If you want to try to cure yourself of the problem and remove the cultural blinders, you have to do a Nigger Thought Experiment. If you prefer, you can do a Kike Thought Experiment. Instead of the Danish cartoons, image a big-lipped, bug-eyed 'nigger' eating a giant watermelon. Or perhaps you'd prefer a cloaked, hook-nosed 'kike' with a giant bag of gold 'jewing' some gentile out of his money? Would you be defending the right of the papers to publish such cartoons based on the 'enlightenment values' of the West? Would you be so proud of your precious 'free speech'?"
Yeah. This is allowed. Organizations like the KKK? Allowed to spew their hatred. That argument is totally bogus. The civilized world doesn't riot when people publish offensive stuff. Most of the time, it gets an hour or so of press and then ignored.
The cartoons were targetted at a very specific and very vocal muslim population that uses violence as a means to solving their problems. As people who want to be in prominent places, they can be ridiculed. I can see how the way it was done is *highly offensive*, but that doesn't make it okay to burn stuff down. You're just deluding yourself into the most extremeist form of political correctness if you think so.
"Here is a small list of some of the things we do to Muslims, without even a hint that there might be some moral issues involved"
You and I both know that's bullshit. No one imprisons muslim women to take them away from their families just for fun. No one bombs innocent children, calls it a mistake, but really meant to do it on purpose. No one chops down olive tree groves just to laugh at dejected muslim faces.
Lastly, It's clear you've never read the history of the Palestinian refugees and how they got there. Before you reply - and I'm pretty sure there's going to be a reply here - go look up exactly what forced Palestinian people from their lands. [Try "Arab Israelis" as a start"]
Re:Cartoons (Score:1, Insightful)
Do you even know what the Crusades were about? Do you realize that even back them Muslims were trying to take over the world and kill Christians? Granted, at the time, the Christians killed back. And, for the record, I'm not that kind of Christian.
Christianity hasn't been without it's problems, but you don't see me out screaming and blowing things up when someone puts a cross in a bottle of urine and calls it art. Yeah, I think it's stupid and offensive, but in a free country I have to accepted that I will be offended if I am to accept that I am free...
[FTM] [blogspot.com]
Re:Cartoons (Score:4, Insightful)
And Christianity lacks this particular trait how?
I'd say it's the "forcibly" qualifier. Modern Christianity (and I mean modern; let's not start a flame-war about the crusades, eh?) doesn't resort to violence nearly as often. The far-right Christians who want the world to conform to their religious views are at least going about their business politically. They'll talk a lot of trash about "liberals" or what-have-you, and they'll lobby to pass laws that force you to play their game. Pat Robertson will subtly hint that God doesn't like you, and Fred Phelps will be less subtle. But outside of the occasional abortion clinic bombing (the last one was when, the early 90's?), they very rarely kill people. I'd say that's a pretty big difference.
Re:From a dane (Score:5, Insightful)
I do agree that as a general rule, you should respect other peoples beliefs. You do have a right to personal beliefs.
I do NOT agree with the following statement:
I think I'm pretty much your average christian-by-culture/atheist-by-belief dane and I understand why the muslims are so pissed! These drawings show nothing but disrespect for the entire muslim community, both here and in the rest of the world.
I cannot understand why they are so pissed. These are disrespectful drawings; but at BEST, thats a matter of taste. Even if its goes against their religious beliefs. These drawings did not advocate wholesale slaughter of muslisms, or anything like that.
They're rude. Do you think I should start a riot everytime someone is rude to me?
The muslim world is embroilded in horrible conditions, things that make everyones skin crawl, and we're having an international culture war over a couple of CARTOON DRAWINGS?
That's perverse. There are real issues here; treatment of muslims in the West, human rights in muslism societs, the vast economic disparities between the 1st world and the 3rd world. And we're talking about BLOODY CARTOONS!
Quite simply, there is no reason for the West to kowtow to Muslim rage. The right answer is for 'us', the reasonable people, to say things like this: "Yes, those cartoons were in poor taste, and I myself do not believe in their message. I respect the rights of Muslims across the world, and have a healthy respect for Islam. However, I also respect the rights of our news media to publish anything they desire, so long as it does not directly incite violence. I may not agree with what they say, but I will defend to the death their right to say it"
We're talking about cartoons. We're not talking about a massacre in tiannamen square. We're not talking about stoning women to death. We're not talking about Soviet purges, or a Jewish holocaust. We aren't discussing a Nuclear War.
Yet this is perhaps the biggest set of international protests I've seen since the fall of the Iron Curtain.
WHAT THE FUCK? (Pardon my French)
I get very, very upset when I hear about the NSA spying on Americans. I get very, very upset when I hear President Bush say that it is unpatriotic to criticize the administration.
But do I start a riot, and burn the local government offices? No.
When I see cartoons that ridicule my race (I'm Iranian), do I flip out and kill people, and demand laws against freedom of speech? No.
The supposed "outrage" we are seeing is misdirection on the part of dictators and religious leaders in the Middle East. There is a much historied tradition of blaming the Islamic world's problems on the West. This is an extension of that blame, and its reached absurd proportions.
Dozens of people have died over these cartoons. If the Islamic world spent a quarter of that effort on overthrowing unjust governments, there wouldn't be a single dictator in the Middle East.
I do not understand why they are this upset. I do not get why they are "pissed". It doesn't make sense to me, and its unacceptable.
Mohammed Was A Warrior, Conquered Cities, Killed.. (Score:1, Insightful)
Unlike other "prophetic" figures for whom there is little or no written history, Mohammed's actions are recorded in written histories that date to his time. I invite you to Google for information on the history of Mohammed: see how bloody his hands were. Then come back and give us your informed update.
If you think of Mohammed as some kind of otherworldly "prophet", or as a purely religious leader or as a man with his head in the clouds, then you are seriously misled. He did much more than preach to spread his ideas: he was a military leader and conqueror as well.
Re:Cartoons (Score:4, Insightful)
Jesus Christ himself said "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also" - Matt 5:39 [biblegateway.com] and "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" - Matt 5:44 [biblegateway.com]. Bombing the middle east was not implied here.
The a world were run by true followers of Jesus Christ, this world would be moving in love, not war or hatred. I seriously doubt that the US President is a true follower of Jesus Christ, because his murders and lies clearly are evidence against this being so.
Nowhere in the New Testament scriptures are non-believers to be executed. Or the Old Testament for that matter.
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Insightful)
Seriously though, the problem with the Middle East is that you basically have a people that have a 10th centaury mentality armed like a 20th centaury nation and population. It is like opening up a time warp, increasing their numbers a few orders of magnitude, and then arming them.
Personally, I think the Middle East has its days numbered. The oil is running out. They have about 20 years to get their shit together and culturally evolve out of the 10th centaury. Once the oil is out, the rest of the world is going to lose interest mighty fast, and when happens they are going to get roughly the same amount of attention as Africa. We might still send aid and feel bad when something goes really wrong and millions die, but in the end, they will just be ignored. Think of the US response to the genocide in Rwanda or the horrible wars that have taken place in Ethiopia. Did the rest of the world life a finger, risk life and limb, or even much money to intervene? Nope.
I give the Middle East 20 years before the fundamentalist get their wish. The rest of the world is going to stop caring about the area and simply leave. At that point, they can make their own little Taliban 'paradise' without anyone's interference.
The moderate Muslims desperately need to grow a pair and stand up for their continued survival. The clock is ticking. If they keep letting ignorant zealots have their way, their children will reap what their parents sowed.
Re:Name one (Score:3, Insightful)
And christians in the west wouldn't think of killing someone for blasphemy against god these days (tho they might if they got too much power again).
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Cartoons (Score:2, Insightful)
In most Muslim countries, the government are either backers of the extremists or extremist themselves. Any moderate Muslims caught not burning embasies would probably be thrown in prison.
Re:Disinfo Psyops (Score:2, Insightful)
This is ridiculous. The criticism of radical Islamic individuals killing people in a cartoon form is a reasonable thing. What you're talking about is just obscenity.
Fear (Score:4, Insightful)
As others have pointed out they're not silent in the west, and a lot of them are fed up with having to distance themselves from fruitloops calling themselves muslims in other parts of the world. Anyone can get fed up if they always have to defend actions they have nothing to do with but which others link them to by some common denominator. That being said one can't exactly fault people for asking either; it's part of getting to know someone to ask about their opinons isn't it?
But take a look at those few non-cleric muslims who have spoken in favour of freedom of speech concerning the cartoons in the middle east. In slightly more relaxed countries like Egypt and Jordan they've been sued and harassed. It is no wonder that the silent majority (at least I hope it's a majority) "down there" are afraid of voicing opinion that run counter to an extremist interpretation of Islam. It's even more understandable if it's something they don't give much tought; almost all muslims in those countries live in extremely homogenized countries where almost everybody is a muslim, that's not an environment conducive to thinking about freedom of expression of those that think differently.
Speaking up in a place like Syria or Iran is tantamount to germans voicing criticism against the treatment of jews in 1940: you've got to be extremely brave to do it and you've got to expect very bad consequences of doing so. I wish they would speak up but I can't but sympathize that they don't; it so much simpler to just go with the flow and if necessary blame Israel, the US, or the EU, or Denmark, or Norway, or *insert scapegoat de jour here* for everything one doesn't like from time immemorial. Yes some people do the same here in the west; stupidity knows no boundaries of culture, gender, or ideology.
There's a lot of info that's not getting attention either in the west or in muslim countries:
- some pretty hefty misunderstandings by danish imams and muslims (however the situation is different in Denmark than in Norway, from my perspective I would say that the communities in Denmark are much more disjointed). Some danish imams when talking about the matter to fellow believers in the muslim world managed to mix up the issue with completely non-relevant pictures and impressions exaggerating their "victimization". Some of those issues didn't have the least to do with anything about Islam (or at least the prophet Mohammed) and to such a level that one can wonder if they had ulterior motives -- it's either that or they have almost no understanding of the country and continent they're living in.
- the rumour mill in the arab world, but elsewhere as well, ran completely out of control: there's a lot of misinformation out there that's 100% false and exaggerated
- a severe lack of knowledge about how important the concept of freedom of expression is in the west, what the background and philosophy is, what it actually means. There's a need for an introduction to Voltaire
- a severe lack of knowledge about how the relation between free press and the state is in western democracies
- a severe lack of understanding about the fact that in the west you are not (as an individual or as a state) expected
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, like Romans 12:18 [gnpcb.org]. Something simply must be done about people who hold to such radical philosophies...
Re:Disinfo Psyops (Score:2, Insightful)
I started hating when a person I actually know (a high genius in fact) was bashed into retardation by a pack of young Muslim males. And lots of girls in my community have been pack raped by similar gangs of Muslim males. Is it okay if I hate for that?
We need to love one another and try to work stuff out. How can we do that, though, if everyone remains ignorant and only listens to their leaders for direction, rather than trying to find the Truth for themselves?
I DID find the truth for myself. From some Egyptian, Iranian, Palestinian, Lebanese and Syrian friends who were chased out of their own damn country because they were NOT Muslim. They as refugees in my country are the loveliest people. I can't say the same for their Muslim nationals who came here as refugees.
Europe is one country now. What do you think WWII was about? WHO CONTROLS THE BANKS. England won.
England REJECTED the Euro for the longest time. This is completely crazy. BTW, England didn't start the damn war.
Re:Disinfo Psyops (Score:3, Insightful)
Come on man, give me a break. You're making the West out to be the moral equivelent of the terrorists here. This must be a joke. We don't surround embassies with guns and blow them up if a newspaper prints something we don't like. We don't send our women and children to blow up random people on the street trying to live their lives peacefully in order to be greeted by 76 virgins when we arrive in heaven. We don't hijack planes and fly them into buildings in nations that don't declare our religion as the official religion. We don't kidnap journalists, construction workers, or doctors and cut their heads off and send the video out over the internet. We don't send suicide bombers to a wedding reception. We don't murder people that have political dissagreements with us.
I think you really need to spend some time thinking about this more and doing more research. Sometimes there IS right and wrong, good and evil. Muslims are not evil, but there is a small group of people that are EVIL that have hijacked this noble religion.