Canada Moves to Keep Skilled Workers 1067
ashitaka writes "Just in time for all those who have vowed to leave the United States in response to government policies and mainstream cultural malaise, the Canadian government is announcing a C$700 million initiative to help skilled workers stay in Canada and become citizens. If you had the choice, would you really uproot to a new country especially one where the lifestyle isn't that much different than your own?"
Yes. (Score:1, Interesting)
The question, however, is what is then going to happen to the immigration laws. Presumably they are going to have to do something to prevent just anyone jumping in and claiming. Will this preclude the majority of people? Will they lower the immigration requirements? Who can say?
Re:The lifestyle IS different! (Score:5, Interesting)
I moved from 1 state to another and life is very different for me. Turns out I like where I live now, I don't ever want to move back. And if I travel to different parts of my state, life is quite different.
Nice (Score:5, Interesting)
Christ, sign me up. Fuck Texas. (Score:0, Interesting)
Any takers for a drug-design oriented chemist with high-level systems administration and Unix development skills? Texas sure doesn't seem to want to hold onto its 21st century workforce, favoring 12th century social mores instead.
Funny this should pop up on slashdot... (Score:5, Interesting)
I come from Europe and, no offense to our American friends, find Canada a much more appealing choice than the USA - exactly because I perceive Canada and Canadian mentality to be much closer to a European mindset.
I admit this may just be a whim, but coming from a country where everybody under 40 years of age is suffering from financial rape from the older generation, Canada sure does look appealing.
Re:So what are geek wages like? (Score:3, Interesting)
Also, it probably doesn't mean much, but all of my friends who are recent computer science grads managed to find jobs very soon after graduation. I don't know how their wages were, but I haven't heard any complaints.
Re:The lifestyle IS different! (Score:2, Interesting)
These days, Canadians aren't too interested in wars, but they still tend to cooperate and help each other out. The army mostly does peacekeeping these days.
Americans, alas, have distinctly moved towards regarding the world as a dog-eat-dog one, with wars and militias as standard features.
I, for one, think this is a bad thing, and harmful to my American cousins.
--dave
What seperates Canada from the US (Score:4, Interesting)
US citizens already speak english, work with dollars and cents, drive cars on the right, etc. At the core, they're basically the same (less some cultural differences) as Canadians. Less government money spent on teaching them english or how to drive.
Right now the Canadian dollar is at $0.85USD. The minimum wage in Ontario is at $7.45CDN/hour for an adult (slightly less for people who serve food/beverages and are subject to gratuities), which is more than $6.25USD/hour. Bear in mind too, that minimum wage is typically only paid to entry level jobs, and most other jobs pay more. I've heard horror stories of US Wal-Mart workers making maybe $5/hour - come up here and get a pay raise!
Come on up boys, We've got plenty of room!
Re:Healthcare is great if you don't get sick (Score:5, Interesting)
For those who are curious, the above is not an exaggeration [onthefencefilms.com], as shown by this film.
As partially summarized by a Canadian blogger [blogs.com], "When you have finished watching this film several images will remain with you for some time to come. A woman who spent two years waiting for knee surgery and innocently asks the American filmmakers whether the waiting lists are as long there as they are here. The moment when she begins to grasp that a health care waiting list is a concept alien to most sick Americans, though sadly not health care compelled bankruptcy, is something that cannot be explained. More stories follow of addiction to pain killers brought on by wait times, of the suffering families go through, of men and women calmly contemplating death for ailments which medical science long ago conquered, but which government control has placed out of reach."
Re:Lifestyle (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Oh, Canada! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Healthcare is great if you don't get sick (Score:5, Interesting)
Canada vs. USA (Score:3, Interesting)
Let's say you have a good job skill set and can get a job more or less either north or south of the 49th parallel. If you speak French as a native language, you'll most likely feel more comfortable in Quebec. If you speak Spanish as a home language, Miami, Los Angeles, or New York would be more confortable. This issue is neutral for native English or other language speakers, eh?
If you don't really like the cold, but don't mind dark gloomy rainy days (say you're a goth programmer or gamer), Vancouver BC would definitely beat the rest of Canada, New England, California, or Florida (too much sunshine).
Fascists, either Christian or racial, will definitely feel more at home in the USA. It's your kind of place.
Cannibus lovers, ('Stoners' to everyone else) will be more comfortable in British Columbia than anywhere in the USA, except possibly Maui. Not even the Humboldt Thunderbolt beats the BC bud. And you're less likely to have a Hummerload of psycho Iraqi vets kicking in your door and sticking machine guns or tasers in your kid's faces at 3am if you smoke in British Columbia instead of the USA. That's important to some people, less to others.
In general, everything that you buy in a store is cheaper in the USA. Canada has insane sales taxes on top of high prices. This is the big issue for most people deciding USA vs. Canada. Big income taxes too. However the money collected in taxes mostly gets back to the Canadian people in some form, whereas in the US taxes paid go mostly to giant corporations with fat government contracts.
However if you're gonna get sick, try to get sick in Canada instead. With the new bankruptcy laws in the USA, along with a corrupt and insanely expensive health care system there, you'll be in debt forever if you need medical care in the USA. Like if you get shot. The US has more guns than people, Canada doesn't.
Could be nice (Score:2, Interesting)
So why am I not yet living there myself? I am just too lazy to leave for now. Also, I wonder if enough Americans moved there, would we eventually mess the place up and make it an extention of our own country? Ohwell, to fully grasp the reality of this subject, I think you would need the experiance of being a resident both in the United States and in Canada. Even then, keep in mind that not all of the United States is alike, certainly different places in Canada must have some sort of social/economical distinctions from other places. Okay, I think this post is long enough now, I will stop here.
Re:Nice (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:You may still have to wait in the U.S. (Score:2, Interesting)
So where are all these full-time employed adults without any health coverage that I keep hearing about? I mean, everyone makes it sound like there are more people driving Escalades than have health coverage, so . . . I want to know. And of those who aren't full-time employed adults with employee health coverage - how many aren't getting health coverage from the state?
Re:What seperates Canada from the US (Score:3, Interesting)
I do not agree. Firstly, the Canadian govt spends sweet fa on teaching immigrants anything. In fact it typically insists that they spend their own money getting "qualified" for something they can already do back in their home country. This might make it quicker for an American working in Canada under current NAFTA rules to just get residency, but Americans who move here seldom have any trouble becoming residents (other than the usual problems, such as the horrendous bureaucracy and $$ involved - I have been through it myself.)
Regarding the wage numbers you give, you forgot to consider the generally higher taxation here in Canada.
That said, depending on where you live in Canada, you can have a very good standard of living. There are definitely opportunities here and I too welcome more immigrants. Even those weird ones that drive on the left-hand side of the road and those who use weird currency like the yuan.
On a related note, someone please teach Canadians to drive.
Income tax misnomer (Score:3, Interesting)
GST does make things more expensive, but cost of living varies so widely based on region both in Canada and the US that it's essentially useless to make comparisons.
Re:It's a cop-out (Score:2, Interesting)
Yes. It's good to find a Canadian who agrees that if the so-called Loyalists had stayed at home and tried to make their state better instead of fleeing to Canada, everybody would be better off.
Of course, it's not too late. As the grandparent stated, more can be done from within the US than from outside. Surely twenty new US senators, and a corresponding shift in the House of Representatives, from north what is now the Canada-US border would make a tremendous difference. You seem to be one of those rare Canadians who recognizes this.
American style socialism (Score:4, Interesting)
Only difference is that most of the American style "socialism" is more towards the military and defense sector (ie. Halliburton, Bechtel, etc
America has all kinds of socialistic institutions like:
The Federal Reserve Bank,
Fannie Mae,
Freddie Mac,
Social Security,
The US Postal Service,
Pension Benefit Guarnaty Corporation,
Medicare,
Medicaid,
Amtrak,
etc
Re:Well it's the UK, but same logic... (Score:3, Interesting)
We're doing fine at keeping skilled doctors etc. in, working the NHS etc., the problem is the non-workers. I was waiting at a bus stand a few months back and i started talking to this guy there. He told me he was a South African and that he was only here to get his family transported over so his son could have an operation free on the NHS. I don't exactly call that a good reason to be over here, given that the goverment are already EXTREMELY generous to immigrants, what with giving them a house and car for free, more than pensioners or disabled people get.
Re:How about giving up the Socialism, eh? (Score:3, Interesting)
Only because people dropped off unemployment completely and thus disappeared from the statistics. Had we been counting actual bodies and not just checks we'd still be in the hole right now.
Re:As an american currently living in canada... (Score:3, Interesting)
Canadian healthcare does the job -- everyone has a basic level of care. For specialized services that are not life threatening, you wait. In the US, if you are fortunate enough to have good insurance, you can fight your way through the system and get care...once. After that, you're hosed unless you manage to keep insurance through your work, because you'll never get insurance personally again.
My wife waited 3 months for a gynecological procedure in Bellingham, WA before we moved. She's been waiting for 5 months or more here in Vancouver for a possible knee procedure.
Emergency medicine is exactly the same here except that you don't get a multithousand dollar bill at the end of the experience.
Our last complete year in the US, we paid over $14,000 US for medical insurance. In BC, we pay about $1300 CDN. The $5K CDN or so in extra taxes we paid saved us a bunch of money.
And BTW, only 2% or so of Canadians ever avail themselves of US healthcare, despite claims that Canadians flock to the US to get care they can't get on time in Canada. Just ain't so.
Re:Lifestyle (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Quick question.... (Score:5, Interesting)
This is the president of the USA telling atheist citizens that they don't belong in the country. Other members of this administration have made similar remarks about atheists, collage professors, environmentalists, femminists, homosexuals and other people they hate.
Why stay in a country that you are not wanted in? Why not move to a place where people don't hate you?
Re:Oh, Canada! (Score:5, Interesting)
On the flip side, if you're a student in the US, you can shell out $100 a month for CRAP healthcare -- as in, if the Student Heath Center is open and you don't go there first, you can pay your own bills, and unless it's an emergency (life-threatening), you had better not even think of going to see a doctor, because the student insurance won't cover it. Oh, and it won't cover anything out-of-network, so I owe my dentist $150 because the student insurance I forked out about won't cover cleanings with my regular dentist.
At least I have healthcare; half of the people I go to school with don't, because $100 a month is more than they can afford.
Now that I'm working 'full time' again, things are better (back to real healthcare), but having experienced 'cheap healthcare' for a year, I'd rather see us Americans with a better system.
I hate to say it, but I think the Japanese have something going with the way they run things -- even without being on the 'National Insurance', I was able to go to a Japanese clinic and have my cough diagnosed as a really nasty case of pneumonia -- and was out the door after a total of an hour, with a small bag filled with about five different kinds of medication, and all for about $200 (IIRC). I shudder to think of what two sets of chest X-rays and about two weeks of meds would have cost in the U.S. without insurance.
Re:Yes. (Score:3, Interesting)
The problem is that the baby boom is over, and it's going to be quite a while until the echo boomers are ready to take over those positions. In the meantime, everyone wants to be a doctor or a lawyer or some other job they see glamourized on TV, so nobody wants to be a tradesman anymore -- the median age of tradespeople is aggregating towards 55 now, which means that there is a vacuum. Lots of jobless people with IT skills, but nobody who can turn a wrench.
This is great news for people with a bit of vision, because they can get into trades and make a bundle right now.
That said, this problem has everything to do with shifting demographics and nothing to do with socialism. The US has the exact same problem. Nobody wants to do any real work any more.
Re:Canada vs. USA (Score:2, Interesting)
I am dating an Arab - not even a muslim! - and I'm getting so much flack from my family. They are insistant that he is going to _become_ muslim. They even told me he was going to manipulate me into becoming a suicide bomber myself!
The insane degree of idiocy to believe such things astounds me.
I'm reading through these comments because the idea of moving to Canada is actually appealing simply for the social freedom.....
Re:Healthcare is great if you don't get sick (Score:2, Interesting)
The fact that some Americans, like myself, do not have healthcare coverage is too broad a statement to act as a condemnation. There are multiple reasons why some people do not have coverage and not all are automatically immoral. Personally, without coverage, I'm not tied to any particular doctor or healthplan. If I don't like the service I'm getting, I walk along with my money.
Vancouver vs. The Frozen North (Score:3, Interesting)
Vancouver's great, and it's on my list of cities I'd move to if I really wanted to get out of San Francisco Bay Area or out of the US. Weather's like Seattle, culture's interesting, coffee's good, and you can get out of town easily. And as far as "would I move to a different country with similar culture", I moved from New Jersey to San Francisco; moving to Vancouver wouldn't be as big a change. Moving to Toronto would be, because it'd be moving back to a culture with winter.
Re:Income tax misnomer (Score:3, Interesting)
You did, of course, not being a disingenious shill, include the $200-600 (depending on employment type/other factors) a month health insurance per-person in the household in the US equation, right? Right?
Re:Well it's the UK, but same logic... (Score:3, Interesting)
In all seriousness though, I agree with you that the American and British laws and/or their enforcement tend to be favorable to immigrants and are prone to abuse. It doesn't particularly bother me though, I'd certainly rather that then the inverse elitist anti-immigrant mentality (anyone heard of the hoops one has to jump through to earn Swiss or Japanese citizenship?). I'm not sure if say that because of the old American give-us-your-wretched mentality, or because the population density of the US still allows it, or because the US economy benifits from it (IMHO anyways, I'm sure someone would argue it).
This is kind of an aside, but I've kind of always wondered this about the English. You're example an abuse of NHS was that of a South African man... but do you feel any obligation towards South Africa? I mean, the British rape of India & Sub-Saharan Africa only ended ~60 years ago, and has yet to recover. Not that the US (or any other nation) doesn't have skeletons in its closet, of course - but do you think such relativley recent disadvantages should factor into said immigration laws, college admissions, job applications, tax breaks, et cetra? The US has decided "yes" (hotly debated though), and I was wondering the take on it over in the UK.
Re:Income tax misnomer (Score:3, Interesting)
Non-Existent is an exageration. Thats what the ultra right wing fasists will have you believe so that they can consider installing a two tierd health care system.
As for affording to live in Canada. I don't believe its the taxes that are difficult to live with. Its the lack of work. Lets face it there are more opportunities in the US. Canadian companies are pansies and won't take a chance on someone if they have no experience. Have you looked at what the requirements are in Canada for working in the computer science field. I can safeley say that most job postings are unrealistic when it comes to the job requirements. But thats what Free trade got us companies moving down to the US because they don't want to pay into a public health care system even though they pay less.
Free trade is the problem not the high taxes. Since free trade came in Corporate Canada has been completely gutted. Even the Hudsons Bay Company is subject to an American take over bid. A 300 Year old company. Its been around longer then when IBM was selling Cheese Slicers. Yet its subject to a takeover bid. Thats just not right.
I remember when Free trade first came in to Canada. I personally witnessed a 20 year old company go out of business within a few months of an American big box store come in to the market in Vancouver. That big box store was Home Depot. They drove out a smaller company that served the Greater Vancouver area well for more then 20 years. And the list doesn't stop there. Eatons was purchased by Sears, Woodwards went out of business all together, and McMillan Blodel was bought up by Wearhouser. McMillan Blodel was the biggest logging company in Canada and one of the biggest in the world. That gives you an Idea of the negative impact free trade has had on Canada. The taxes are manageable. They'd be manageable if it wasn't for outside presures. Personally I hope our prime minister follows up on his threats and dumps the North American Free Trade Agreement. That would be the best thing that has ever happened to Canada.
Germany is cool too, no pun intended! (Score:3, Interesting)
The health care system here is also socialized but with an option for private health care (either exclusive or in addition to) your basic health care.
Naturally there is the language problem. You can live here if you don't speak German but it would be very very difficult. For me, that's not a problem though.
The immigration laws are extremely strict for most nationalities but not nearly as bad for Americans. They do kindof use a Catch22 system though. You can't get residence permission without employment and a registered address here. You can't rent an apartment or get a job without residence permission though. There are loopholes but it's tough.
Of course, if anyone in your family tree, has or had, even the slightest percentage of German blood you can get citizenship pretty easily.
If you're married to a German, you don't have to change your citizenship to live here. Of course you can if you want to but it's not required which is my case.
Crime is extremely low everywhere and the weather is similar to the Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York region.
The IT market is somewhat thin, similar to the US, but there are plenty of jobs out there.
Re:Yes. (Score:3, Interesting)
As an unskilled worker, neither America's nor Canada's system are any use to me, I can't go there.
Re:Lengths? What Lengths? (Score:1, Interesting)
So who was pumping all the gas before there were 10 million illegals in the country? Industrial robots?
Maybe if you stopped to think a second you would realize that the reason such menial jobs pay so little is because of the labor market distortions introduced by unchecked immigration. If that distortion were corrected, wages would rise until those jobs were filled by legal workers. It's as simple as that.
Re:Income tax misnomer (Score:5, Interesting)
Nope. 80% of Americans get their health insurance paid for by their employers. It is in fact very likely.
Most people employed in the only area of job expansion in the US - the burger flipping.
Nope. Here are the fastest growing ocupations in the US over the past 10 years:
Health aides 138%
Human service workers 136%
Personal and home care aids 130%
Computer engineers and scientists 112%
Systems analysts 110%
Physical and corrective therapy assistants and aides 93%
Physical therapists 88%
Paralegals 86%
Teachers, special education 74%
Medical assistants 71%
In general the top categories are in health care. It seems to me that a nation with the terrible health care problems you claim would not be adding health care workers at that rate.
Wal-Mart and other "service" industries do not have any such benefits
Wal-Mart does in fact offer health covereage to it's workers. The problem here is that their pay rate is so low that about half of them decline coverage.
Such benefits are today restricted mostly to the CEO class.
Utter nonsense. My insurance coverage, which I pay $25 a month for includes 100% hospital coverage, free prescriptions and $5 a visit copay to the doctor. Two years ago I needed an MRI for an ankle injury and was able to get an appointment in 3 days. Out of pocket cost was $0. I am definitely NOT a CEO class person.
An economist my ass.
A Nobel Prize winning economicist, actually.
It seems to me that you are living in some sort of weird fantasy world not connected in any way to what the reality is.
Re:Income tax misnomer (Score:3, Interesting)
Source?
Health aides 138% Human service workers 136% Personal and home care aids 130% Computer engineers and scientists 112% Systems analysts 110% Physical and corrective therapy assistants and aides 93% Physical therapists 88% Paralegals 86% Teachers, special education 74% Medical assistants 71%
Most of these are service, part-time, contract or self-employed (i.e. "consultants") "workers". Explain to me again how is it that the employer pays their insurance?
Wal-Mart does in fact offer health covereage to it's workers. The problem here is that their pay rate is so low that about half of them decline coverage.
Oh yes! That makes all the difference! Phew! The end result is so completely different! Why, if Wal-Mart did not provide any coverage, that would be, like, they would have no coverage. As opposed to having no coverage. I am so glad that we have this clarified.
My insurance coverage, which I pay $25 a month for includes 100% hospital coverage, free prescriptions and $5 a visit copay to the doctor. Two years ago I needed an MRI for an ankle injury and was able to get an appointment in 3 days. Out of pocket cost was $0. I am definitely NOT a CEO class person.
Let me put you in touch with these [dailykos.com] people then (read all the comments from your fellow Americans). Enlighten them as to your wonderful insurance company. It seems they sure need it.
A Nobel Prize winning economicist, actually.
It seems to me that you are living in some sort of weird fantasy world not connected in any way to what the reality is.
That's the way to prove your grasp on reality! Nobel Prise winning economcists [sic!] are always guaranteed to be experts in everything. Like national medical care. Even if economics itself is considered "science" only by other economists (sort of like psychiatry). And the top Nobel Prize winning economists never get together to apply their "theories" to practice by forming world's most famous and largest hedge funds, which never, I mean never would fail completely and spectacularly to the tune of many billions of dollars, having the said geniuses scatter all over with their tails between their legs. It could never [erisk.com] happen! They also never have agendas, oh no! Even if their theories have obvious, easily noticeable holes you could drive trucks through. But what counts for "reality" is only the things which agree with your ideology. Reality my ass.
Re:Income tax misnomer (Score:3, Interesting)
Not so. The parent is spinning, which I pointed out in my reply.
Many Canadians I've met can not understand how the U.S. can function at all without universal healthcare. But, function it does.
That depends on your definition of "function".
But, when one looks deeper, one sees that the percentage of the population in the worst case scenario is (a) actually quite small and (b) there is opportunity to move out of poverty.
What is (a) the number then and (b) I have the "opportunity" to become the King of Monaco, if only I were to hang around in the right places to meet the princess and get hitched, no? It could happen, really! The odds are even similar as for some of those people "moving out of poverty". What the fuck does "opportunity" to "move out of poverty" mean? What counts is that they, at present, not in your hypotetical, coulda-woulda-shoulda America, have no coverage. Or is this too complicated?
In contrast, Canada's "social safety net" is, for many, an illusion. Rather like a lottery: everybody knows of someone who won, but the chances of doing so are quite slim.
I have first-hand experience. Many who post on Slashdot do too. You are just a lying, greedy dork with an agenda, that's all.
We have, went through boom and bust, having to return to Canada for a while (always staying in legal status), and are now back.
That fuck says it all about you. Do not come back here you fucking leech! You've abandoned this country, you are opposed to what it stands for, you pay your taxes to another and obviously have greater allegiance to another so stay the fuck out!. You whine about how wonderful it is to make profits on the backs of some poor idiots in the States and then, when some shit hits the fan, to crawl back here to take advantage of the social safety net which the rest of us are building for ourselves. The same one you are dissing whenever it is inconvenient for your pocket book at other times. What a fucking cockroach!
Heck, my son is an American citizen, and the rest of us hope to be soon, as well.
Good riddance. And stay out.
There is poverty everywhere. I happen to like that I can donate substantial funds a month to the local food bank (generally more around the holidays) rather than have some fat-ass politoco tax that money from me "for the poor on welfare (after expenses of course -- mmmm, leather chair, mmm".
Sure and they get to eat whenever the bank happens to have some food, i.e. whenever you and other economic-rape artists feel pangs of conscience. Every second July or so.
Re:Income tax misnomer (Score:4, Interesting)
There are not many people like you there statistically. You are an elite exception. Also a huge, $1200 a month, tax on an employer is supposedly somehow better then personal taxation how again?
and it's for far better care than I can get in Canada -
And that would be how precisely? Blow jobs by nurses? 1400 square feet bed-rooms with French maids? What?
much of what it covers is not covered by provincial health care programs.
Ouija boards or Chinese Astrological Brick To The Head Therapy I presume?
Even then, it's still cheaper
$1200 a month is cheaper? Does it cover whatever that thing is you are smoking right now too?