KOffice Developers Reply to Yates 368
danimo writes "In response to his letter to the Massachusetts administration, the KOffice team has written an open letter to Microsoft manager Alan Yates. It clarifies some false claims that Yates made, such as KOffice, StarOffice and OpenOffice.org being one codebase and that OpenDocument was thus never a real standard. Massachusetts has meanwhile adopted OpenDocument."
Like a stuck pig (Score:5, Insightful)
He mentioned Abiword and Gnumeric as well (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, it wouldn't even be a problem if they were the same codebase, because since they're Free Software they can all share the same code. Certainly, Microsoft could support OpenDocument easily just by copying the same code into Office, right?
...oh, wait.
Re:Why even bother with word processors? (Score:5, Insightful)
The other problem, as always, is some people/places requiring Word. As a graduate student I had to supply some papers in Word format. I could'nt get away with doing it in LaTeX even though Word was a pain.
So, yes, there is a requirement for GUI based word processor, even though I think the effort required to learn LaTeX pays back a hundredfold in terms of efficiency (for anythjing more than 2 pages) and professional looking documents
More for PR (Score:4, Insightful)
Translated: Don't listen to Yates. We can assure you that KOffice is its own entity that is in no way shape or form a derivative of OOo.
It's not a bad thing, though. There are certainly people stupid enough to believe a letter sent by Microsoft would have no agenda. This, at least, sets the record straight for all the world to see.
Re:Is legal action possible? (Score:3, Insightful)
Massachusetts Attitudes (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm still amazed that Microsoft is acting like this is a sudden event. The tide in Massachusetts has been turning this way for a long time. Didn't they wonder about Massachusetts being the only state that didn't cave in and settle in the MS monopoly case? Didn't they wonder about the ramifications of the Massachusetts "Open Source Software Trough" when it was first instituted some years ago? Didn't they see the writing on the wall in local Massachusetts community sites like Saugus.net [saugus.net] that have been promoting free software [saugus.net] and open standards since the '90s? Haven't they noticed that recent Massachusetts-based projects (like the local Teaching American History Grant participation [saugus.ma.us] have been embracing open standards?
Wake up Microsoft. This shouldn't be a surprise. What's more, other states have been following Massachusetts' example regarding the open source trough, so I expect that they may also take a good hard look at what's happening here now.
Re:Why even bother with word processors? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why even bother with word processors? (Score:4, Insightful)
2. Most people will never be as productive with it as with word?
3. Most people will try everything to avoid having to think when performing some task.
Or... not everybody is a geek.
LaTeX rules!
What would be the best thing to happen (Score:5, Insightful)
Does anybody know wether there are plans by Apple?
Re:Why even bother with word processors? (Score:0, Insightful)
Re:When you go to PR training... (Score:4, Insightful)
KOffice, or anybody else for that matter would probably have better served their cause by not responding at all to this.
KOffice team quite simply pointed out a false statements made by a Microsoft executive about their applications, and in the process they grab some good PR as well. I think they payed better attention to the PR course than you did ;-)
Re:When you go to PR training... (Score:5, Insightful)
However, Microsoft's claim that KOffice was the same code as StarOffice wasn't an opinion. It was a false statement of fact, or in other words, a blatant lie. How is it a bad idea for the KOffice people to stand up and say "no, you are blatantly lying (to the government, no less!) to serve your own interests?"
You know, if it weren't for the facts that computer issues are hard for people to understand and that Microsoft is part of the media, I would think that people would be shouting "Microsoft hates Freedom! Microsoft hates America!" right about now -- and they'd be right!
Word processing != Typesetting (Score:5, Insightful)
In short, the vast majority of word processor use is for manipulating, organizing, and retrieving text-based data in a format rapidly parsable by human eyes as part of a workflow or thought process.
For such things, LaTeX, troff, or any other text formatter... sucks. In fact, it isn't even appropriate for the task.
But you're right, if you just want nicely structured, rendered output in hardcopy or PDF, you can't beat 'em.
Re:Are Wallin's comments much more accurate? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why even bother with word processors? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is, quite simply, a remarkably stupid comment. I use LaTeX. For pretty much all my documents and presentations. I write my own document classes. Previously I have written LaTeX document classes reproducing the format of company Word and Powerpoint templates so I could produce my documents and presentations in LaTeX instead of MS Office - and yes, I did get that cleared with marketing. I am quite intimately familiar with all the power, flexibility and benefits that LaTeX has to offer. The fact remains that word processors are remarkably fast efficient and easy to use and entirely suitable for the majority of users. Most of the real benefits of LaTeX simply aren't of sufficient importance for most casual and business needs to bother - and it's not like word processors these days don't have their on benefits (usually relating to integration with the rest of an "Office Suite" package.
LaTeX is truly wonderful, and if you know how then by all means use it. But don't pretend that it's a replacement for a word processor - they are really filling different niches, and have quite different areas at which they excel, and at which they are weak. The right tool for the job and all that.
Jedidiah.
Re:Are Wallin's comments much more accurate? (Score:5, Insightful)
As for Inge's statement that KOffice will likely run on Windows within a year. This is not a statement of courage. It is an entirely reasonable and obvious assumption. Plans are afoot as we speak to do just that. KOffice, much as all of KDE, will be ported to Qt4. Qt4 is now GPL'd on Windows. The internals of kdelibs are being redesigned to acknowledge this fact and allow us to target non-X11 desktops.
KOffice will be coming to Windows/Mac OSX desktops in the near-to-mid future.
MS Trolls/Fanbois/Employees (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, right now, there are only 5 applications that support OpenDocument.
Yes, right now, those applications do not have a lot of marketshare.
Pray tell: How many applications support MS Office Open XML?
How much marketshare do those applications have?
Oh, thats right, the answer it 0, and 0.
OpenDocument will always be better supported, and right now, OpenDocument has more marketshare.
Will this change with the release of Office 12? Maybe-- My guess is all your customers will continue to use DOC.
Will this change with the adoption of OpenDocument by the European Union, and various governmental organizations in the U.S.? Absolutely. You *do* realize that much of the economic activity in Europe requires working with the government.
Microsoft itself will be forced to submit documents to the EU in ISO-approved OpenDocument. Hilariously, Microsoft will have to use OpenOffice.org to do so.
Re:Why even bother with word processors? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think the beauty of a text-only format like TeX and LaTeX is that you can share it with everyone. In fact, more people can make small additions to a TeX document than they can a Word document. There's also nothing for them to install, you can store the document in a revision control system and get meaningfull history (diffs), there's no hidden information [microsoft.com] inside of it, etc.
Re:What would be the best thing to happen (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't know what Apple's plans might be, but it's certainly an idea I'd support.
I wonder, however, how difficult it would be to create a stand-alone transformation package. Pages uses XML. OpenDocument uses XML. There are XML Transformation tools out there. Someone only need describe the transform, and you should be all set.
I really don't understand Microsoft's attitude on this one. Their reasoning for not implementing OpenDocument in Office just isn't sound. Sure, there may be areas where Microsoft's native Office formats have some advantages, but last I checked Office still supported saving to RTF and HTML formats, both of this are significantly less feature complete than OpenDocument. And you don't hear anyone moaning that these shouldn be removed from Office (or shouldn't have been implemented in the first place).
Microsoft has an out in this battle -- just implement OpenDocument format as an export format and be done with it. Their "problems" are entirely of their own creation because they refuse to take the obvious step to rectify the situation.
Yaz.
Re:He mentioned Abiword and Gnumeric as well (Score:3, Insightful)
One shouldn't expect SGI officials to make press statements on behalf of Microsoft, IBM or HP. The same applies here.
Re:Like a stuck pig (Score:4, Insightful)
Once MS had the 2 monopolies, they owned the market. But if they lose just one of the 2, they will lose the other quickly. Basically, they must maintain both, or risk losing all.
Microsoft probably already has OpenDocument... (Score:3, Insightful)
You could call the Massachusetts decision a victory, and I think it is certainly deserving. Just know that Microsoft isn't as dumb as many people seem to think -- you better bet they're prepared to launch their next volley.
Re:Yay! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Why even bother with word processors? (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh, come on. If typing \begin{tabular}
As for the original +5 Funny comment that wordprocessors are easier to learn than LaTeX, I would point out that no one really understands the wordprocessor they're using, least of the typical non-technical user, and that training programs for secretaries to learn or update their skills from one version of Word to another are expensive and time consuming as they are commonplace.
I've pointed this out before, but once upon a time no so long ago, secretaries in large organisations would regularly draft everything from the simplest letter to large complex documents in WordPerfect. The "markup" was no more complex than that of LaTeX, and the professional-looking memos, letters, etc. that went out the door were generated using simple pre-written macros that even little old ladies in accounting could use. Today, it seems, the approach is to have everyone spend their time endlessly "drawing" their documents (using toolbars and menus that even Microsoft has admitted are unwieldly), instead of writing them.
Obviously, LaTeX is hardly the ideal solution in many environments, but it's worth pointing out or at least reminding people that things can be as simple or as complex as you choose to make them, whether the subject is file formats, or the tools used.
Re:Why even bother with word processors? (Score:4, Insightful)
How is opening a raw LaTeX file really any different from opening the XML zipped inside an OpenDocument file? In practice both use a program to render the raw file into a more presentable format. if you don't have the program then you can't get the presentable format. Both are readable in the raw if that's required though.
Just because MS made a particularly fucked up closed binary format for their word processor doesn't mean that word processors are evil, it simply means MS isn't particularly good at making portable formats.
Jedidiah.
Re:back-patting (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Is legal action possible? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why would it be?
There are valid reasons to put restrictions on authoritative speech, particularly to the government or the public. Two of these are:
Perjury: lying under oath, such as in court.
Libel: Harming a reputation through written words.
The check and balance of harmful speech is especially important in cases where you have an "expert" opinion. Microsoft's comments on OASIS compatible software could be analogous to Bayer saying their antibiotics (Ciprofloxacin), while more expensive, is the only one that works. We do not want Bayer, or Microsoft, lying about these things.
Interestingly, the more broadly the statement was made, the more likely it is to be considered a "puffery", an accepted norm of bullshit in advertising. If it was made directly to an official's office, in court, or in any situation analogous to 'under oath', then maybe it could be considered perjury. The hyperbole of this would be lying about the capacity to cheaply produce an influenza cure on the brink of a pandemic; there is a general public policy consideration to honest statements in general, and in particular in situations of potentially grave risk. That opens up liability in fraud.
So a couple of things of importance. First, the context of the statement: under oath, or an analogous situation, opens liability to perjury for false statements. Second, a concise and defamatory statement can create liability in libel. Finally, there is a public policy consideration to the impact of the statement, especially if it can have grave ramifications, that we deter by incurring liability for fraud.
Re:What would be the best thing to happen (Score:3, Insightful)
The fact that MS has the ultimate control over the default file format is the foundation of their office suite marketshare. They're going to do all that they can to delay the switch to an open standard, even if they will lose in the long run.
Do you know why Microsoft 'always' win? (Score:2, Insightful)
People like Microsoft because they aren't fully aware of the competition or how Microsoft wiped the competition out through illegal practices or just buying them out. Managers like winners (even if they cheat) and there's know arguing that Microsoft is a winner.
Re:It's better not to be wrong so publically. (Score:5, Insightful)
You've already been told that the statement that KOffice will be ported to Windows within a year isn't a statement of courage. This is likely only a few man months worth of work. Inge knows this. I know this. Why? See... because we actually work on KOffice. You?
Typical... Slashdot... IDIOT.
Re:Word processing != Typesetting (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm sorry, but this is just bullshit and makes me think you've never worked outside of IT. Where I work, there are very few (if any) "specious documents" and no flyers, but there are a hell of a lot of documents that get passed around containing lots of important and useful information, often that needs to be editable by whomever is holding the file, often that would be very difficult (and horribly lengthy) to approach as plain text, often that isn't conducive simply because of the nature of the data to the construction of a database or spreadsheet or "final" formatted document.
If you wiped a word processor off of most business computers, then went to employees and said, "okay, we're going to make you something new, what do you need," they'd say they need a program:
- That holds free-form information easily,
- that they can type in without having to obey a lot of structure,
- in which they can begin typing without having to plan out the "entire project" first,
- that they can easily move and shuffle text around in as they build their thoughts,
- with tables that they can sort,
- and other tools to manage incidental numeric or tabular data,
- as well as tools that let them highlight important text,
- search and replace,
- add footnotes,
- data fields and mail-merge when necessary,
- that many people can edit as the file gets passed around,
- that will keep track of who edited it last and what they chagned,
- and that has a nice correlation to printed output, in case someone needs a hardcopy.
- And they'd probably say, "It'd be nice if it'd fix my typos, too!
Guess what. They just asked for a word processor.
But back to your point, I'm curious - what particular feature of Word helps you organize your text-based data over and beyond what plain text and a good text editor? Let me guess: the colorful sparkles.
As a matter of fact, yes. What's so hard to understand about that? Visual cues are very important. Excel is nice for some tabular data, but isn't text-friendly enough or free-form enough for other data.
What do you do when you need to take a couple of weeks to organize a complex set of ideas that contain lots of notes and textual data but that stretch across five or ten pages and might justify the inclusion of a couple of lists or a photo or two, and that you'd like to be able to sort on or share with others if possible?
Well? How do you do it? For this set of complex notes that you'll be using for the next week, do you log into MySQL and create a bunch of tables pointing to individual plaintext or image files within the file system, along with extra fields for footnotes and relateds and addendums and "wow!" flags, then code a web interface and manage your brainstorming through that? Madness. Do you nicely format each new thought or addentum into a section in a master LaTeX document, then wade through the escape codes and generate new output each time you have another thought? I thought not. If you don't use a word processor, text editor, or spreadsheet (which only works for certain kinds of ideas and data, as previously mentioned), you probably do it on a yellow notepad... which, with a red and a black pen and doodled symbols... is full of colorful sparkles and not at all unlike the empty pages in a word processor document.
We are visual beings, and recorded language is also visual. Most of the ways in which we represent numeric information or relational information are also visual. You ridicule that as though it implied stupidity, but I'm guessing you
LaTeX is only for big documents? (Score:5, Insightful)
The principal reasons LaTeX hasn't taken over the world are that it is almost unlearnable, and that the instant feedback of WYSIWYG is lost. I've been using LaTeX for almost 15 years, and still feel like there's a lot I don't know and can't do.
That said, the idea that one wouldn't write letters or a CV with it is just silly. My CV and resume are in LaTeX, and it is what I write letters with. It's way easier to get a document that doesn't look like a ransom note, and to get consistent formatting with different content, with LaTeX than with a WYSIWYG word processor. Trust me: when I evaluate the horribly-formatted .doc resumes I'm always receiving from potential employees, it's a strike against them. I'd encourage everyone to explore LaTeX as time permits them.
Re:He mentioned Abiword and Gnumeric as well (Score:2, Insightful)
- Inge Wallin is a KOffice developer
- Inge Wallin responded on behalf of the KOffice team
- The open letter was published on dot.kde.org
I don't know why you'd expect anything but a KDE-centric text. IMHO there's nothing wrong with that.
Problem is editing (Score:3, Insightful)
- afaik it was designed as a typesetting program, i.e. to give a nice PRINTED result, especially for mathematical formulas. Roughly speaking, its target group is academics (and maybe professional typesetters).
- it is not very legible. Writing text is easy enough, but editing someone else's source is no fun (unless using an editor that recognises the directives etc). Alse cut-and-paste is not so trivial because style files can be incompatible.
- The output is great, but it can be a pain when (for some reason) you want to enforce your own layout.
Re:It doesn't just harm KOffice, it harms America! (Score:3, Insightful)
And no, this isn't a troll, because it's supported by the facts of Microsoft's actions.
In other news, the Free Software community continues to ponder why the general public still views them as blithering moonbats.
Re:Why even bother with word processors? (Score:3, Insightful)
Seeing how much they are being used, I would say they already found the problem...