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India Will Need to Recruit 120,000 Foreigners 453

Posted by Zonk
from the importing-foreigners dept.
indi_jobs writes "After all the noise about jobs moving from Europe and USA to India, ZDNet India is reporting that 'India faces a massive shortage of workers with European language skills over the next five years which could see the country needing to recruit up to 120,000 foreigners...' Looks like the jobs may be moving to India but they might require the original people to do some of the jobs!" From the article: "Evalueserve said the ramping up of non-English speaking capability by the Indian offshore firms is an attempt to capture a larger share of the continental European outsourcing market, and reduce the country's high-risk exposure of more than 80 per cent of business coming from the UK and the U.S. economies."
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India Will Need to Recruit 120,000 Foreigners

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  • by drunkennewfiemidget (712572) on Tuesday June 07, 2005 @02:20PM (#12749630) Homepage
    To attract new workers in India and people (as many as 120k) to India, wouldn't they need to offer better benefits, less taxes, higher pay, etc? At that point, wouldn't it make more sense to bring the work back to this side of the ocean?
    • I'd view it more as "seed stock" so that they can meet the immediate demand until get enough Indians trained in other European languages. Lose money in the short term, make money in the long run.
      • Perhaps I am confused- Aren't we (the US) giving more HIB Visas, and aren't tech leaders saying we need to import more tech workers? (I think I read this on Slashdot that Bill Gates was saying the US will have a huge shortage). So where are these workers coming from? If the US and India are going to need to import workers, who will export them? (I don't mean to speak of people as a commodity, but the words fit)I know that this is a huge world, but what country will do the exporting?
        On a side note, I cancel
    • by mgrassi99 (514152) on Tuesday June 07, 2005 @02:24PM (#12749683)
      This is the beginning of the great "equalization." It won't be long until Indian workers (and foreign workers in India) demand a standard of living that drives up their required salaries. Since the globalization scare began a couple years ago (actually, its been happened for decades), I've been saying it can't last for too long, now that we're all part of one global economy and not packetized in little closed-off sections of the world.
      • by Anonymous Coward
        I'd say this is the beginning of the great shafting. It's where all the workers have to move to the country with the least workers rights, lowest pay and the crappiest exchange rate in order to get a job.
      • I heard that for these purposes the labour force of india+3rd world countries can be considered infinite, thus this wouldn't happen.
      • we're all part of one global economy and not packetized in little closed-off sections of the world.
        You don't work in a cubicle, do you?
      • There's a long way to go with that. India has a billion people, most of them poor and uneducated. An IT professional working for one of those offshoring contractors could live very comfortably on a fraction of the wages of an American or European worker. So the cost savings of moving to India will not abate. What will happen is that even poorer countries than India will compete for outsourcing work. If globalization means spreading the wealth around (minus the cut skimmed off by the oligarchs), working fol
      • by mangu (126918) on Tuesday June 07, 2005 @03:25PM (#12750509)
        It won't be long until Indian workers (and foreign workers in India) demand a standard of living that drives up their required salaries.


        The technical people in India and other third-world countries already have a standard of living that's equal or above their counterparts in the USA and Europe. Their wages only seem so low because the money exchanges aren't linear.


        India, China, and other countries keep their exchange rates artificially low to increase their exports. This is made necessary mostly because the USA and Europe have heavy subsidies on agricultural products that compete with third-world exports. What's the point in subsidizing orange growth in Florida, if Brazil has perfect soil and climate for growing oranges, while Florida is only marginally adequate for oranges? Why does Europe grow sugar beets if sugar cane produces sugar at much lower costs?


        In order for less industrialized countries to compete with the agricultural products which make most of their economy, they must lower prices by depressing the exchange rates.


        If you are an unemployed engineer in the USA, blame not the CEO who follows a sane economic policy. Blame the farmers and their lobbyists.

        • More and more it seems like "a sane economic policy" means "making decisions to obtain short-term savings and line my own packets at the expense of long-term viability".

          Is that really sanity? Or is it just greed?
        • by Jardine (398197) on Tuesday June 07, 2005 @03:56PM (#12750833) Homepage
          What's the point in subsidizing orange growth in Florida, if Brazil has perfect soil and climate for growing oranges, while Florida is only marginally adequate for oranges? Why does Europe grow sugar beets if sugar cane produces sugar at much lower costs?

          What happens if the few nations that grow sugar cane decide to cut off the supply to certain countries?

          First you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women.
          • They either have to cut off the supply to everyone or to noone. The global marketplace is too efficient to cut off one customer. Plus, you'd need a cartel to arrange that and I think oil has just about the only half-decent cartel.

        • by ultimabaka (864222) on Tuesday June 07, 2005 @05:00PM (#12751525)
          Good strong economic analysis. I like that. Although I'm not so sure about the broadreaching statement that they simply "live better" than people in the US or Europe.

          On an aside, however, good luck trying to get anything done in terms of the farmers and their lobbyists. For little more than reasons of national pride, farmers are the most heavily protected group of people, no matter where they are, in the entire world. The political fallout of removing any kind of subsidy from the farmers group would be heard throughout the country, and it simply doesn't make any sense.

          Until you insert into peoples' heads the idea that all nations "must" be self-sufficient foodwise, else suffer horrible failure...or something.
        • The technical people in India and other third-world countries already have a standard of living that's equal or above their counterparts in the USA and Europe. Their wages only seem so low because the money exchanges aren't linear.

          How many rupees do indian programmers earn per month? 30000?

          At the moment I have a position research fellow on a university in Bangalore, and as far as I can see the indian researchers have a somewhat lower standard of living than their (northern) European colleges. But I mu

        • by the-build-chicken (644253) on Tuesday June 07, 2005 @06:33PM (#12752510)
          What's the point in subsidizing orange growth in Florida, if Brazil has perfect soil and climate for growing oranges, while Florida is only marginally adequate for oranges? Why does Europe grow sugar beets if sugar cane produces sugar at much lower costs?

          I heard this argument put to a european diplomat onces and the answer he gave, which I though insightful, was something like (not verbatim):

          It's true that the crops our farmers grow can be grown cheaper elsewhere, however we choose to recognise that farms and farming communities give us more than just their agricultural output. They give us values, a community. They give us a connection with our heritage and control over our food supplies. They are custodians of the land and maintain our country side. They assist in preserving agricultural knowledge and preserving a way of life that is beneficial to all our citizens. We realise there is a premium to be payed for all of this and are willing to pay it though subsidies.
      • I'm thinking of a Dilbert cartoon I saw where the pointy haired boss was asking a savage in a jungle if he new some computer language.

        If Indian I.T. workers with good American English are in short supply I.T. companies will go find people in another dirt poor country working for peanuts. That or there will be classes in India to polish up on American English.

        India has a billion people, most horribly poor.

        If they get help ( financing from a foriegn corporaton ) in acquiring the skills they need they will
    • Supply & Demand (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Vicissidude (878310)
      With the supply for workers holding these skills staying the same while the demand increases, that means Indian wages will shoot up. Considering that companies only save about 10-20% by going to India, you can bet offshoring to India will cool off. That's great news for US workers.
      • Re:Supply & Demand (Score:3, Interesting)

        by tekiegreg (674773) *
        It's been happening to some extent already. I remember when you could find an Indian programming contractor for $15/hr (This would be a good programmer with a decent programming skillset). Nowadays it's about $20/hr which is approaching the low-end of U.S. Programmers now. Granted you can find low-end U.S. programmers now about $25/hr from my epxerience. In fact at that point is it worth the extra overhead and inconvenience of having your programmers that far away? Hmmmmm.....
        • Re:Supply & Demand (Score:3, Informative)

          by Feyr (449684)
          yeah, now the new craze will be to export to canada. the lowend is around 15$/hr here. even as a sys/net/security admin that's what i make
    • IT companies particularly in Bangalore offer high pay scale and lots of benefits. The scale compared to the US is measly but by the living standards in India it is indeed very high. Cheaper is a relative term. Cheaper comparing to US standard? Yes, but definitely not cheap comparing to local standard.
    • Personally speaking, and I don't claim to account for 120k people, I would love it.

      I have certain USD denominated costs, and certain local currency costs. USD costs are payments on student loans, savings (assuming I'm USD-block based in the longer term). My local currency costs are accomodation, food, entertainment; if I 'go native' these are fecking low.

      I would be pretty happy to 'go native'. Accomodation, in a safe area, should be less, I love Indian food (the real kind, not a diet of lager and t
    • I'm sure the shitty wage would go a lot further living in India than it would living in Southern California. Maybe I should send a resume.
  • one word: (Score:3, Funny)

    by dlefavor (725930) on Tuesday June 07, 2005 @02:21PM (#12749644)
    karma
    • NAFTA encouraged many American companies to build manufacturing facilities in Mexico. The impetus was cheaper labor, no labor unions, no benefits, no cumbersome environmental regulations -- in short, all those things that the Clinton regime was supposed to address in follow-up legislation when promises were made to American trade unions.

      But some companies that established Mexican facilities decided that Mexican workers still cost too much money, so they imported Chinese labor to replace the Mexicans. As
  • Dear India: (Score:4, Funny)

    by phyruxus (72649) <jumpandlinkNO@SPAMyahoo.com> on Tuesday June 07, 2005 @02:22PM (#12749648) Homepage Journal
    My resume is on my web page.
  • hmm (Score:2, Funny)

    by compro01 (777531)
    i guess they're gonna need to outsource back over to this side of the ocean.
  • by Nomihn0 (739701) on Tuesday June 07, 2005 @02:23PM (#12749665)
    Looks like the jobs may be moving to India but they might require the original people to do some of the jobs!

    Ah, the joys of documenting others' code.
    • Tell me about it! (Score:3, Informative)

      by ravenspear (756059)
      I'm working on an ecommerce site right now for a client who got sick of the Indian developers who originally were working with it. The funniest thing about the code is the parts where the spelling is actually worse than on /.

      I keep seeing stuff like:

      function calkulate_shiping($prodoct) {
      if (in_shoping_cart($prodoct)) {
      return get_shiping_charge($prodoct);
      }
      }

      $shiping_charge = calkulate_shiping($prodoct);
      $acount_balence = $acount_balence - ($prodoct_price + shiping_charge);

  • Sorry USA... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rsidd (6328) on Tuesday June 07, 2005 @02:23PM (#12749666)
    Looks like the jobs may be moving to India but they might require the original people to do some of the jobs!

    Given that non-English language skills are the problem, Americans are still out of luck...

  • Hmmm (Score:5, Funny)

    by puppetman (131489) on Tuesday June 07, 2005 @02:23PM (#12749670) Homepage
    To combat the labour shortage, India should outsource the work to North America and Europe. Lots of surplus labour. And the way wages are climbing in India, the West might be able to do it cheaper.
  • One way ticket (Score:5, Insightful)

    by dfn5 (524972) on Tuesday June 07, 2005 @02:24PM (#12749679) Journal
    I see a problem with this. I knew people who moved to America from Brazil, worked at McDonalds for a few years, and went home rich. If we Americans go to India to work we'll be stuck there because we won't be able to afford to move back.

    • If we Americans go to India to work we'll be stuck there because we won't be able to afford to move back.

      I fail to see the problem, if we'll have a comparable (or better) standard of living there... Finally a good chance to escape the ship before it completely goes down!


      Squeek Squeek, baby!


      Hmm, I wonder if Hindu zealots seem as annoying as Fundies/NeoCons....
    • and the problem would be what exactly?
  • So what now? India is going to start outsourcing? Like say american workers? haha

    then it'd be like american companies are outsourcing to india, who are inturn outsourcing to americans!
  • Business plan. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by team99parody (880782) on Tuesday June 07, 2005 @02:25PM (#12749701) Homepage
    I keep thinking I should hire some random guy in India (doesn't need to know computers - just have a phone # in india) to be the "CEO" of my own personal consulting company and sell consulting services to the local businesses. When large companies buy our services, I then hire a bunch of the unemployed silicon valley .com victims for minimum wage to do the actual work.

    Benefits all around

    • Layed off .com programmers are cheaper than Indian workers.
    • Layed off .com programmers are in the same time-zone so can service the clients better.
    • Indian CEO is cheaper than US CEO.
    • Indian Headquarters makes big companies more likely to sign up.
    • Minimum wage and Silicon Valley resident are mutually exclusive. Median home price in Santa Clara Country is north of $650k
    • by lcsjk (143581) on Tuesday June 07, 2005 @02:37PM (#12749862)
      Now you are beginning to get the hang of this global economy stuff!
    • Re:Business plan. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by faust2097 (137829) on Tuesday June 07, 2005 @04:27PM (#12751181)
      That's funny, because all the people I know who are good at what they do here in the Bay Area are gainfully employed and making more money than we were in 2000 [and it's *cash* too]. Hell, I haven't worked at a company that didn't have 5+ open local programmer reqs since 2001.

      The people who are still out of work 5 years later must be seriously lacking in any valuable skill other than "inflating executive egos", "blowing hot air" and "getting other people to do their work for them". Yeah, if you were a "producer", "integrator" or "chief creative officer" in '99 you're going to be driving a cab but there's always a demand for people who have good ideas and can deliver on them.

      p.s. Please note that "writing some complicated text parsing code that kind of integrated with a database" isn't marketable in the valley anymore.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 07, 2005 @02:26PM (#12749706)
    English-speaking language skills could also be in short supply.

    I find this hard to believe considering the proficiency in English I see evidenced in the average Indian help desk I've frequented. I'd venture to say some of them speak even more weller than some Slashdot editors.
  • by Twillerror (536681) on Tuesday June 07, 2005 @02:29PM (#12749744) Homepage Journal
    as a reduced price lunch.
  • I would have to agree with India's assesment that working for an American company is a high risk exposure.
  • Language skills (Score:2, Informative)

    by techstar25 (556988)
    'India faces a massive shortage of workers with European language skills'
    Judging on the speech of the person who answered the last time I called tech support they don't seem be too strict about the "European language skills" part.
  • MWHAHAHAHA (Score:4, Insightful)

    by AKAImBatman (238306) * <akaimbatmanNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Tuesday June 07, 2005 @02:32PM (#12749778) Homepage Journal
    It looks like the supply end of the curve is dropping as the demand curve goes up. Before you know it, this could result in an increasing cost of outsourced workers. Combined with the exact opposite curve in the countries doing the outsourcing (i.e. low demand == lower cost workers), a balance will soon have to be struck that will again restore tech workers to a thriving market in both America/Europe and India. No, there's not going to be another "tech boom". That's over with.

    I have to say that I found the article rather amusing, as I've ran up against many of the "English speaking" Indian call centers. (I'm looking at you Citibank.)

    Q: What do you get when you mix an Indian accent with the British flavor of English?
    A: Something completely incomprehensible to an American.

    It's amazing how many cues exist in the accents we use in our language. American English is actually quite forgiving of foreign accents, but it frustrates me to no end trying to understand the Indian on the other end. It's not that he has an Indian accent. The reps actually tend to speak English quite well. The problem is that the slight Indian accent completely throws off the British accent (which most Americans are unaccustomed to anyway) and makes it very difficult to comprehend their speach. Add the quality of a telephone connection on the mix and you've got a communications disaster far worse than the bored utterances of the previous Floridians. (Who were no shining examples of pretty speech themselves.)

    Ok, I'm done complaining. I'm sure I'll soon be hearing from all manners of Indians, British, and Floridians who all feel slighted just because I had a bad customer support experience. Cheerio! :-)
    • Before you know it, this could result in an increasing cost of outsourced workers.

      Don't hold your breath. There's a whole second-order wave of tech outsourcing just now staring -- this time in China. And it will be many years before all the wages there rise high enough to be prohibitive.

      And then there's still Africa, after that...

    • It looks like the supply end of the curve is dropping as the demand curve goes up...a balance will soon have to be struck that will again restore tech workers to a thriving market in both America/Europe and India.

      I don't see any issue of "MWHAHAHAHA" here -- the process you describe is how anyone with a shred of comprehension of economics understood this process was going to play out. There's plenty of work for everyone on the planet to do. Good for India, good for us!

    • and makes it very difficult to comprehend their speach.

      Definitely American English. =)
    • Re:MWHAHAHAHA (Score:3, Insightful)

      by alphakappa (687189)
      I know that you are not flaming Indians, still let me say a few words as an explanation of 'Indian English'.

      Most educated Indians speak very good english, i.e. perfect grammar. The pronunciation is a hard nut to crack, but you'd be hard pressed to show me a place in the world where English has been spoken for 200 years without a native accent being developed. The reason for the strange Indian accent is that Indian languages are strictly phonetic, so Indians tend to pronounce words exactly the way they are
    • Re:MWHAHAHAHA (Score:3, Informative)

      by Frogbert (589961)
      American English is actually quite forgiving of foreign accents
      Given that I've seen American TV programs that have Australian and New Zealand accents subtitled I'd have to disagree with that comment.
  • Pakistan is filling the gap and rapidly becoming the next hotspot for labor outsourcing.


    Globalism is great. Eventually Africa will be used as it really is the last spot of untapped labor (although a tad risky at the moment).

    • Pakistan is filling the gap and rapidly becoming the next hotspot for labor outsourcing.

      Population of India: 1,080,264,388
      Population of Pakistan: 150,694,740

      I'm thinking that Pakistan won't hold out for long.

      Eventually Africa will be used as it really is the last spot of untapped labor (although a tad risky at the moment).

      Hello Dear Friend, my name is Bozo Mumbo, and I am the rightful king of Nigeria. My brother recently kicked me out of the palace so now I have turned to offering outsourced tech wo
    • Africa needs to fix it's education system before it becomes a destination for outsourcing... many countries there simply don't have public schools. (My wife is from Sierra Leone) Ask the average Indian tech worker, and they'll tell you there job will probably be outsourced to China in a few years. Asia has a couple billion people and a high unemployment rate, I suspect they can absorb all the outsourcing for many years to come!
  • Remember (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Lally Singh (3427) on Tuesday June 07, 2005 @02:36PM (#12749834) Journal
    The current exchange rate is 43.5 to 1. They won't be outsourcing back anytime soon.
    • That has nothing to do with the exchange rate. 1USD will just do a lot more in some countries then in other. Or do you think that if all exchangerates were 1 to 1 we would all be equal moneywise?

      Before the EURO a Belgian Franc was about 20 to the German Mark. That did not mean that the Germans were better off or worse off.

      It is as if you would be saying that building build in Inches are larger then those build in centimeters (or smaller if you look at the meter)
      • Costs of living, etc., in India have a similar scale factor to the exchange rate. Despite the textbook definition, the exchange rate indicates a lot more than costs of currency conversion.
        • Are you sure? (Score:3, Informative)

          by douglips (513461)
          http://www.finfacts.com/costofliving4.htm [finfacts.com]

          According to this index, it looks like living in Mumbai or New Dehli costs about 45% of what it costs in New York, and 1/3 what it costs in Tokyo.

          Does it really cost 2.29 Rupees for a loaf of bread (I just bought one for $2.29) or can you really rent an apartment in Mumbai for under 3000 Rupees/month?

          Hint: When I was in Turkey and the exchange rate was 400,000 lira to the dollar, I wasn't able to get a meal at any restaurant for less than a million lira.
          • Re:Are you sure? (Score:3, Informative)

            by dodobh (65811)
            Yeouch! 2.29 INR for a loaf of bread is expensive. It costs about half that in most places.

            Again, depending on what you want and the locality, your rent can vary from 2000 INR to about 1000,000 INR per month in Mumbai (You can comfortably live in Mumbai on 10000 INR/mth, particularly if you use public transport. And Mumbai's public transport is excellent).

            New Delhi is a bit more expensive to live in, as is Bangalore.

  • It reminds me of that Dilbert where his company outsourced their work to India, who outsourced it to Romania, who outsourced it to Mexico, who outsourced it back to the original company.
  • Plan B (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Doc Ruby (173196) on Tuesday June 07, 2005 @02:39PM (#12749882) Homepage Journal
    The foreign workers will cost less working in India by serving the rest of their life with cheap Indian labor. This is how the entire economy of a country like England or the US gets "outsourced" to India. Because soon enough, the foreign workers will drain the local nontech labor pool of its best workers to serve them, and more people will need to be imported. It's almost as damaging to the local, less skilled, labor pool as it is to the foreign economies cherry picked for its workers. While the transplants ramp up India's economy, many of its globally competitive advantages, like unfettered environmental destruction and labor commoditization, will eventually catch these migrant workers short.

    Maybe it's time we just fill a "B Ark" [bbc.co.uk] with service personnel, and turn this brain drain to our advantage.
  • Isn't it sad that a "third world" country of a billion people has a government with a labor policy that can create a surplus demand for tech workers in the hundreds of thousands, while America's got hundreds of thousands of un- and under-employed tech workers, without a competitive labor policy?
    • by OzPhIsH (560038) on Tuesday June 07, 2005 @04:10PM (#12750999) Journal
      You're killing me.

      You think it is a good thing that in a country with a billion people, there is a labor shortage of hundreds of thousands in the tech field? This country has a BILLION people. BILLION. This isn't evidence of Indian government doing things right, its evidence of them doings going WRONG. What is wrong with these billion people that not even a fraction of a percent of them are skilled enough to fill these jobs?

      The problem inherently lies in education. These billions of Indians don't (yet) have the education to fully compete in the tech field. The labor force is not up to par when it comes to actually knowing how to do the job. Oh, sure the COST of labor is what makes them competitive compared to American workers, but in terms of actually having the necessary skills to compete, its still no contest.

      In reality, the fact that there isn't such a huge gap between supply/demand for tech workers in the US, especially porportional to the number of people living in the country, is a good thing. Wait, hear me out. Sure it isn't necessarily appealing at first for you, the worker as an individual. Wages are lower when your skills aren't in demand, everyone knows this. You have to look past that though. The fact that we actually have the labor supply to meet our still rather high demand for tech workers says everything about the education of people living in the US. Imagine if the US had such a labor shortage in the tech field. It would be disasterous! It would be a prime indicator that Americans were simply too dumb to fill the positions. An educated population is a good thing at home, and it is a good thing abroad. As the world becomes more educated, we all benefit.

      Praising misguided government "labor policies" for a situation that is really the result of horrible education and living conditions, which have been fostered by their ass-backwards goverment for generations, is just something I won't do. If you think that Indian government policy is really so much better than what takes place in America, then feel free to move over there, as already many posts have suggested doing. I for one would rather be homeless on the streets in the US then work in India. Worker's Paradise it ain't.
  • If I was making $50/hour and my job was outsourced at $25, then the outsourcing company can rehire me at $20 to remain profitable? That's only a 60% paycut for having your old job back... why the fuss?
  • article!

    ZDNet India is reporting that 'India faces a massive shortage of workers with European language skills over the next five years which could see the country needing to recruit up to 120,000 foreigners...

    Everytime a "journalist" says that there's shortage, I immediately become suspicious. These people said that there was a "shortage" of programmers and it would last until, what, 2010? And yet there's still a bunch of us who had to get jobs at Home Depot. These folks are saying that there's a "shor

    • Ok. You guys are sharp and you're going to think this is an inconsistancy:
      My friend, bless her, said "When working conditions and pay are IMPROVED FOR NURSES, I MAY help you, until then I do not believe there's a "shortage". AND I'm hearing more and more people (even from IT) training to become nurses because of the increased salaries.

      It's really not. Salaries for nurses have hit a point where fellow Americans want to move to that profession. Thus, eventually decreasing salaries.

      Economist geeks, please

    • My friend, bless her, said "When working conditions and pay are IMPROVED FOR NURSES, I MAY help you, until then I do not believe there's a "shortage".

      I learned a couple of years ago that Alaska has about twice as many licensed, ready-to-work nurses as there are nursing jobs in the state. There is either a glut of nurses, or a shortage of jobs nurses are willing to take. There is definitely no shortage of nurses.

      When someone is telling your kid that nursing is the hot field, remember that: the wages

      • I'm going to mention this to my wife - She's a nurse.

        Do you think it's people who want to get in on the Oil checks (I don't know what it's called) you guys get? Because everywhere else in the US, nurses get a sign-on bonuses of $10,000+ (I've seen the ads myself) for just starting to work there. What I'm saying is, those nurses can leave Alaska and make a really nice living.

        • Do you think it's people who want to get in on the Oil checks (I don't know what it's called) [It's called the Permanent Fund Dividend [apfc.org]] you guys get?

          Definitely not that. The PFD doesn't begin to make up for our high cost of living and generally low wages.

          Because everywhere else in the US, nurses get a sign-on bonuses of $10,000+ (I've seen the ads myself) for just starting to work there.

          Places in Alaska are making the same sort of offers. I just recently heard from a nurse who's moving to Junea

    • These people said that there was a "shortage" of programmers and it would last until, what, 2010? And yet there's still a bunch of us who had to get jobs at Home Depot.

      There are lots of different kinds of programmers; perhaps your qualifications don't meet what's in demand.

      I'm hearing more and more people (even from IT) training to become nurses because of the increased salaries.

      That's scary: medical care like IT help desks...
      • Unfortunately, my many years of learning on and off the job doesn't mean much anymore. That's why I'm leaving the field - or trying to leave. I've lost the joy of developing software.

        May you never feel this way!

  • Is the shortage in the call center market or the programming market? I don't mind doing any job if I am unemployed, but I would want to move into a position that utilizes my talent as well as compensate my well for that talent.
  • Classical economics, perhaps most identified with John M. Keynes, [wikipedia.org] has faced the problem of mobility of the working force repeatedly since, cirica 1960 when it was suggested that structural unemployment presented the need to prepare workers to shift careers and move to where the jobs are. Classical economics has faced it's own needs to shift to new paradigms in the face of work by Complexity theorists like Brian Authur [santafe.edu], but the problems of worker mobility remain. There are all sorts of barriers to mobility,
  • It seems most of these "jobs" are the tech support calls where you sit behind a phone and answer questions.
  • by ErichTheRed (39327) on Tuesday June 07, 2005 @03:02PM (#12750206)
    The outsourcing countries have major advantages that we would require significant adjustment to overcome:

    1. They've got a huge workforce of people who are overjoyed to work. If your choice was between call center/coding/offshored clerical work and whatever job you could get back in your village, what would you choose? I'm actually working on a partially outsourced project now...a couple of our developers went over to India to work, and they report that people are more than happy to work 15-16 hour days.
    2. The standard of living is much lower. Everyone doesn't need the newest car, latest clothes or an expensive house. In the US, a lot of the salary inflation is because keeping up in the consumer universe is so expensive.
    3. Education is considered important. Those stories you hear of immigrant students doing much better in school are true. It's considered shameful to fail in most other countries. True, we may not be graduating as many scientists and engineers because the employment prospects are so dismal, but I think it's mainly because parents don't push their kids to do well as much as they do in other countries. If/when I have kids, they will be education robots...nothing but study until they're finished with school. That's the only way we can compete.

    So in comparison, we have an expensive, undereducated country with a poor work ethic. No wonder we're losing this battle!
  • The implication in the original poster's blurg is roughly "see you weren't losing anything after all".

    I disagree.

    1. Americans have American I.T. jobs with American companies at American wages.

    2. Those American I.T. companies send those jobs overseas so they can pay the workers less.

    3. One of those countries can't find enough people to staff these jobs so they will invite foreigners to come apply for them.

    End result. If you are a western IT worker you can keep your job if you take a drastic pay cut and
  • by supun (613105)
    If I move to IndiA, and take a job, does my HMO cover marauding monkey bites?
  • On the radio on the way in to work today, I heard a story about yet another market that India(n entrepreneurs) are getting into in a quick way -- animation. It seems that even though there was no market for it at all in India, hundreds of thousands of Indians have gotten themselves trained in animation and are geared up for just about any project from commercials to children's entertainment, feature films and maybe even Anime.

    Let's get a check on reality here -- it would seem the picture that's being pain

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