Software Glitches Stall Toyota Prius

t35t0r writes "CNN/Money/Tech reports that 2004 and early 2005 Toyota Prius models have software bugs that cause them to stall while traveling at highway speeds. While no accidents were reported to have been caused by the software glitch, could we be heading into an era where our automobiles will require software updates and fixes to keep them from literally 'crashing'?"

what i'm waiting for

[circletimessquare]

video of the car-to-car worm via bluetooth/ wifi that stalls cars

you would watch it move like a wave through traffic: on one end, normal moving traffic, on the other, fender benders and honking horns and frozen cars

it would move under overpasses and propagate upward and spread in either direction, like dominoes

awesome and frightening and completely plausible in the next 10-20 years

Re:BMW??

[kin_korn_karn]

I hate it.

My car (2004 Mazda 3) has a fully electronic throttle body. It's all servo-driven, no linkage between the throttle and the gas pedal at all. If I had thought to check stuff like that I wouldn't have bought it.

It hasn't given me any trouble yet (it's a 2004, it had better not), but just wait until the sensor shorts out and tells the engine that I want to floor it, or vice versa.

Wait till they start using software rental model

[Anonymous Coward]

I fear a day would come when we have to pay yearly software license renewal fee to keep our cars running.

"Your vehicle OS license is due to expire in (insert date.) After which you may no longer able to operate your vehicle. Please contact (insert brand name) for OS license renewal."

Or for that matter, receiving the following message on the dash board LCD *AFTER* installing an upgrade...

"Your vehicle is incompatble with this version of OS, please upgrade your vehicle."

Software language

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that the thing runs on Java and similar crap like that. That's just retarded.

How many medical devices use Java? How many flight control systems use Java? You think there is a reason for that?

Kind of makes me glad my car's not all techy

[ian rogers]

I drive either a Jetta or a Fiero. Neither of them have power windows, ABS, etc. The Fiero doesn't even have power steering. Both have a 5 speed manual transmission. I've never had any problems repairing stuff, mainly because of having things like a 5 speed, crank windows, etc. People don't really need a computer to run their cars for them. If 90% of people are running unstable computers (Windows), do they really need things to make them drive worse? Sure, having a computer with a DVD Nav unit is nice and all, but computers shouldn't be driving cars when half the people on the road can't even do it well.

Re:BMW??

[EggyToast]

Depends. A lot of traffic accidents and general traffic problems are caused by individuals acting separate from the "herd" of cars that are obeying traffic laws.

Imagine if in 10 years, when there's a minor fender-bender, once the accident is off to the shoulder, traffic picks back up at a regular pace. Now, everyone gawks and traffic stays backed up for miles thanks to that.

Or even better, when someone misses an exit, they don't slam on the brakes in the middle of the expressway and back up to the exit.

There was an 8 car pileup with numerous fatalities last year on the Baltimore beltway thanks to someone in the middle lane cutting across 2 lanes of traffic at top speed to turn into those "Emergency turnaround" digouts between expressway lanes. If he literally was prevented from doing something that stupid thanks to his car, those people would still be alive. Sure, he'd be 5 minutes later to where he was going...

Bring on cars that don't let people be idiots. The rest of us who do a good job of obeying traffic laws will be that much safer thanks to it.

As far as software controlling much of our cars, we're already mostly there. Power locks lock you out of your car if they fail. Power steering makes your car nearly unturnable if that fails. Power breaks provide so much extra breaking power that if they fail, your car is basically going to be nearly brake-less anyway.

Irresponsible article!

[marcushnk]

13 unconfirmed reports from essentially anonymous forum postings.

Bloody ridiculous.
I have one of these cars and it performs flawlessly, as does most other peoples.
There are very VERY few issue's with this exceptional car.

Cars already need this..

[scrow]

I have a 1999 Volvo S80. The car basically runs on a server/client basis with all the systems. The steering is even drive by wire. I have had two incedents where scheduled maintenance included software updates to the car's systems.

Re:BMW??

[Xzzy]

Buy a classic auto while you still can.. before 1975 or so (depends on your state) so you can skirt around smog regulations as well. Especially if most of your daily driving is on local streets.

Simple and functional, and after a while you'll even look forward to spending a weekend maintaining it.

I drive a 40 year old vehicle, and wouldn't give it up for anything. As vehicles become more and more drive-by-wire, I only see it as validating my decision. ;)

Re:Software fixes are already part of auto recalls

[Incadenza]

Among us for some time indeed. A friend of mine had a similar problem two or three years ago with a Peugeot. I do not rememember the model, but it was one of the first batches out of the factory.

She had problems with the engine shutting down sporadically while driving (at any speed). This happened one or twice. She went with her car to the garage, and the mechanic told her, blank face, "Known problem. Needs a software upgrade. Come back in two weeks time, we have place in our schedule by then".

Of course she told the guy to give her a replacement car for two weeks - you must be mental to take a car like that into the Dutch rush hour traffic.

Re:Failover

[poot_rootbeer]

The problem is that historically, cars have had real mechanical transmissions that were easy to fall back on if the Power Whatever system failed

Actually, that's not the problem. The problem is that we're now starting to see more and more cars using "drive-by-wire" technologies. The gas pedal is no longer a lever controlling an engine aperture directly; it's a rheostat feeding a variable voltage to a computer, which then decides how to adjust the aperture.

If that computer gets into an irrecoverable state of badness somehow, you could be SCREWWWWWED.

2003 Ford Cobra stall issue

[Anonymous Coward]

Any other cobra owners remember the 2003 stall issue? That one caused several accidents and took a long time for Ford to release a fix for the problem, I personally only had it happen once and that was in a long sweeping turn at about 70mph, I was about to get on the brakes because of slower traffic ahead of me and it stalled out leaving me with no ps or vac assisted brakes in a turn moving faster than I should have been. Lucky for me I recovered with no problem, but it could have been bad.

When too much tech is a bad thing

[ducomputergeek]

I think we are starting to see this in cars, but I know its also a problem in some farm equipement now as well. Farmers used to be able to fix most mechanical beasts often with the use of bailing wire. One of our farmers had a problem last year during harvest: the engine would start. Why? One of the sensors went bad and wouldn't allow the engine to start. The engine itself was mechanically fine. Took four hours for a field tech to come by and replace the sensor. Four hours doesn't sound like a lot, but during planting or harvesting, getting that extra 50 arces planted or harvested is the difference between breaking even and making a profit.

Growing up we did most of our own car repairs, changed the oil, etc. But with our newer car we cannot do a lot if something goes wrong, especially with electronics which is what fails 90% of the time.

The day my push mower won't start because of a faulty sensor is probably the day I really get mad. Why? Because with all this technology, I think many, especially engineers, might have forgotten that true genisus is making something complex simple. Too often I think we are making simple things way too complex.

Re:BMW??

[Locke2005]

All the more reason to drive a manual transmission car. I had a Honda CRX that the dealer misinstalled the air conditioner in so that the the cotter pin came out and jammed the throttle advance (needed to keep the engine from stalling at idle when the A/C kicks) wide open. Cars starts accelerating across parking lot, I simply push in the clutch. Car pegs RPM gage, I shut off the engine. The other point is, you don't need drive-by-wire in order to have a throttle stick wide open!

Re:Irresponsible article!

[Meoworgg]

I had this exact same glitch in my 2004 Toyota Prius 6 days ago. I was driving down the 57 South (I live in socal), merging onto the 91 West. I was in "stealth" mode at the time (where the gas engine is off, and electric engine is on), since the traffic usually backs up on the 57-91 onramp. Suddenly, my whole dashboard lights up like a christmas tree, and my nav system flashes "PROBLEM" on the screen. I notice that ICE (the gas engine) no longer kicked it when I depressed my gas pedal, but the electric engine was still operating fine. Fortunately, I was only a mile away from the next exit, so I coast there in electric mode... fortunately, it was still rush-hour, so I didn't hold up traffic, and my battery "tank" was full.

After pulling into a Denny's parking lot, I hit the power button to "reboot" the car... fortunately, most of the lights disappeared, and the gas engine kicked in, but there was still a few alert and check-engine lights on. I was able to drive the car another 15 or so miles at full highway speeds to the dealership, who were able to pull the problem codes (P3191 P0A0F) and reprogrammed my computer... and all is great again!

While I agree that the problem is alarming, it wasn't as bad as the article claims... the electric engine still gave me all the power I need to pull over safely. And this was the only problem I've ever encountered with the Prius, after 13 months and 18000 miles!

Re:Irresponsible article!

[Anonymous Coward]

wow. little touchy are we? uhh, read the article. you should find it interesting especially because you OWN one of these vehicles.

Toyota is fixing the issue - that means it exists :) This isn't wild speculation based on a couple of guys posting anon to some forum.. there's a real software bug. period.

it doesn't matter how much you love your car, it has a software bug.

oh, and to let you know, stuff will break on it. so when the mechanic tells you you need a couple of parts replaced don't throw a fit like you just did here.. it's just a frickn' car man.

also, seek medical advice concerning your pyschiatric state. It seems you need help.

At first, I chuckled at your post "can this guy really be old enough to even have a drivers license?" If it's legitmate, you seem to have the mind of a 7 year old.. SEEK HELP!

Are these cars even safe?

[digital-madman]

Well... here i go. After i read these articles, I'm gald i choose to drive "real" cars. I drive an 87' V8 5liter Formula 350 Firebird, 4bbl carb. (Yes.. I pass everything but a gas station...I hear that all the time.) This car has power nothing (except windows), No power ABS, no airbags, and the only power steering it has is the bio-electric carbon based huminoid unit behind the wheel. The pedals have linkage... teh brake is a pressure system. This car, IMHO, is safer than anything sold today. Now most people get scared when you put the letter V next to number 8 now a days (gas prices), and its a vaild point. If i floor it.. i can see the gas needle move... I'm not kidding... But something most people do not relaize is that this car is made of METAL. I was hit by a honda accord... and i got a scrach in the paint... not even a dent. The honda lost its rear bumber, quarter panel, and the trunk lid needed to be replaced. 2 grand in repairs... i bought a 4 dollar bottle of scrach remover at walmart. Thats saftey feature one... Saftey feature two... One day at an intersection... a truck lost its brakes... coming down a hill, right at me and a few other cars... i noticed right away and slamed it... he impacted a few imports, while i was waiting at the next light (i had to run that light after all... but hey...I'm not dead). The imports tryed to move out of the way... but the little 2 liter or less 4 cylinder engines couldn't even start to move fast enough. I view 4 bangers as a Saftey risk!... Most of the those little engines can't get the revs up fast enough in an emergency... Safety feature 3.... Theres no computer... I can work on my car... i can look at the engine an tell you what it does with out a expensive diag. copmuter. I'm 21, and can tune a carb. Most 21 year olds are loading "fart pipes" on there hondas trying to make them "high performance". (As a side note, i go around all night messing with kids and there little rice rockets... showing them the meaning of power....lol). In my car at least, I know that a "computer" would shut the engine off at random... or other. Of course new cars have one advantage to my old power house. In northern new england winters.... they acutally start with one turn of the key. Anyone who's tryed to start a 4bbl carb V8 engone in 3 degree weather... pump pump pump...turn... enigne slowly death cranks.... repeat proceedure, knows how that feels. But even in a blizzard I drive my Firebird... so the argument that theese cars suck in winter is wrong. I had to learn to to drive it in winter, and even on the interstate just fine... sure... its a little fun to what your friends freak out when the back end starts sliding... but if you know what you are driving... its just another quirk of rear wheel drive. So to end my rant, I find these new cars unsafe. Engines are too small, the things fall apart on impact... and I see these hybrids as even worse... what if you need to move suddenly from a stop in an emergency... how fast does the engine come on... and transfer power... I'd think it'd be even longer than it takes for a 4 banger to get moving. So for me... I'll stick to my old sports cars. It sure isn't fuel "sipping"... but i feel a whole lot safer. -DM

Re:Failover

[klubar]

Actually (at least on the Prius) it's not a rheostat on the gas pedal... the interface is redundant hall-effect sensors to ensure that it's not getting false readings. Systems can be designed to be redundant...the mechanical linkage could easily jam or break...either which could have catastrophic effects.

Re:Irresponsible post (RTFA)!

[Anonymous Coward]

I took a Prius based cab recently in Vancouver BC and had a long discussion about the car with the driver while going from the airport to downtown. Not only does the car save him $700 (that's pure profit too, even including the cost of the car) a month on gas, but I asked him about its reliability and he said he had 400,000 kilometers on it and that it was the most reliable car he had ever used in his business. He told me their fleet is at 16 cars with literally millions and millions of kilometers between them all.

This thing is starting to smell of anti-hybrid hysteria, similar to one about exploding batteries when they first started gaining in popularity.

Tens of thousands of people die in cars every year for such stupid and preventable non-mechanical things as not wearing a seatbelt, but on slashdot a minor and extremely rare bug in the control system is hyped as a reason to not use computers in cars.

I am not really surprised, as many people are afraid of change. Even on slashdot it is not difficult to find people who oppose new technologies just because they don't understand how they work.

Software upgrades are small price to pay

[Petersson]

I'm very content with computer controlled car engines - it makes huge difference compared to former purely mechanical control:

by optimization of air/fuel mixture the computer saves the fuel, allows to start the in a one or two seconds even in very cold weather, motor power is increased , catalyc converter can be used effectivly etc.

Well, even entire power plants, chemical plants, oil refineries, dams and almost entire industry is controlled by computer and works fine (mostly).

Living with computers is sometimes hard, but it would be quite harder without them!
---
Computers are just another machines that is hard to master

Re:Shouldn't have stolen that code not informative

[johno.ie]

Do people really drive around in a ton of metal and not know in advance how it operates when bad things happen to it? When, exactly, are they planning on learning? The time to learn what happens when you slam on the brakes on a puddle of water is not in the middle of traffic. I once had an early antilock system that pulsed the brakes really oddly...there was a lag between losing traction and the unlocking of the brake, or something, I never really figured it out.

Yes they do, and some of them think people like us are nuts.

Like you, I have spent some time experimenting with the limits of my cars. I've always done my experiments when theres no other traffic around, and yes I've checked the max speed of my cars in these conditions too. On a few occasions this has come up in conversation and some people have berated me for risking my life. I've tried explaining to these sheepheads the value of the knowledge I've collected, but they're response is usually along the lines of "if you drive according to the regulations nothing will every go wrong". Bullshit!

I've had one highspeed crash (60kph) when my car aquaplaned on a slight bend. Thanks to the fact that I had done some experimental driving, I didn't panic, got the car back under some kind of control and didn't cross into the other lane of oncoming traffic. Sure I hit a signpost and damaged the front of my car, but I drove away afterwards and nobody got hurt.