Software Glitches Stall Toyota Prius 560
t35t0r writes "CNN/Money/Tech reports that 2004 and early 2005 Toyota Prius models have software bugs that cause them to stall while traveling at highway speeds. While no accidents were reported to have been caused by the software glitch, could we be heading into an era where our automobiles will require software updates and fixes to keep them from literally 'crashing'?"
BMW?? (Score:5, Informative)
More to the point. How does everyone feel giving up full control of thier car? What about the Mercedes digital brakes? There is no physical link between the pedal and the wheels.
We were promised self driving cars, and we're on the way to it.
Software fixes are already part of auto recalls (Score:5, Informative)
Re:BMW?? (Score:1, Informative)
Slashdot reporting (Score:2, Informative)
From the actual article: The report said no injuries or fatalities have been linked to the problem, but it did not say whether there had been accidents due to the problem.
Close enough for government work, eh?
Re:Shouldn't have stolen that code... (Score:4, Informative)
Actually in this case Ford is paying Toyota royalties to use their Synergy Drive System (the gas/electric hybrid technology at the core of the Escape Hybrid)
Re:Car Firmware Upgrades and Rebooting on the Road (Score:2, Informative)
Uh, that's a classic sign of an air leak and one of the sensors is picking up either too much or too little pressure.
Could also be the knock sensor, O2 sensor, etc.
Read the code from the computer and see why it turned on the light, duh...
Re:I can just imagine it... (Score:2, Informative)
It's called a Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT) [com.sapo.pt] and is the same technology as used in your friendly, every-day snowmobile.
In a nutshell, it's a chain-driven set of pulleys that resemble a pair of cones that move together and apart to give you a near infinite number of ratio combinations. This maintains a constant RPM level in the engine for better fuel economy as well as less strain on the mechanics and better performance because your engine doesn't have to torque up, shift gears, then torque back into a power band again - you're always in a power band.
If you don't have a Toyota dealership in your area that has a Prius on the lot, check out the Ford Five Hundred or Freestyle and see what it's like to drive without gears. :)
Re:Shouldn't have stolen that code... (Score:2, Informative)
Why you're responding to me and not the parent is beyond me, but nevertheless;
Ford's Escape Hybrid uses the same technology as the Prius. The Escape Hybrid is in its first model year, therefore it is conceivable that it too could experience the same problems.
Big picture, y'know? :)
Re:Shouldn't have stolen that code... (Score:5, Informative)
That's not "Ford's" problem so much as any number of cars that have experienced accelerator sticks.
BTW - if you're still on speaking terms with your ex, you should let her know that if that happens in the future she should have
Re:Failover (Score:2, Informative)
All modern ECUs have a "limp home" mode activated if they lose one or more sensors. Basically they run a default setting on ignition and fuel injection that allows the engine to continue to operate.
If your MIL (Malfunction Indication Light) lights up on your dash, you are probably in limp home mode.
Re:Cars already need this.. (Score:3, Informative)
>> The steering is even drive by wire.
I think this is only partially correct. That car, like all other cars to date, has a direct mechanical connection between the steering wheel and the angle of the front wheels. That connection is the primary means of changing the car's direction. You should be able to observe this by turning the ignition to the unlocked (but off) position and observing that the front wheels still budge when you turn the wheel.
Volvo does have drive by wire for their outboard motors and for their line of forklifts, but the technology is not in cars yet; probably for legal reasons it has to be 100% reliable before they'll risk it.
There is one other sense in which you are correct: when the stability management thing intervenes, it is capable of steering the car to some degree, however it does so by activating the brakes individually or changing the throttle position not by turning the wheel. It's also possible that the power steering unit has electronically controlled boost under control of the stability management thing and tones down the boost when you're already oversteering. But these systems (braking and boost reduction) would not come into play in normal driving.
Re:Failover (Score:3, Informative)
I would have occasional power steering failures, generally caused by the fluid leaking out of the pump. When this happened, there was no problem controlling the car at speed, but it was an absolute beast to get out of parking spaces.
So in short, a power steering failure is actually no big deal at speed, only when the car is stopped.
D
Re:I can just imagine it... (Score:5, Informative)
The Prius does not use any belt or cone system. That is the older CVT used in other cars many years ago.
The Prius uses a planetary gear set to transfer power around between its various inputs/outputs.
See this article for more details:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-car16.htm [howstuffworks.com]
Re:Cars already need this.. (Score:3, Informative)
No car in production today has drive by wire steering. Mercedes has drive by wire brakes, but even those have a mechanical backup in case something goes wrong.
And no auto manufacturer in their right mind would design a car to operate using a client/server architecture. What would be the point? You could sit in your car and control a Volvo on the other side of the parking lot?
I think you're just throwing out buzzwords and hoping for a mod up.
Ever heard of a TPS? (Score:1, Informative)
When the TPS goes bad, your engine starts acting funny--my car started revving by itself and not decelerating when I took my foot off the pedal. The TPS was replaced under warranty. Good thing I had a manual so I could push the clutch quickly when it decided to act up.
Re:BMW?? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Failover (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Shouldn't have stolen that code... (Score:5, Informative)
Mostly these technologies have to do with the transmission and, I believe, some of the control mechanisms and algorithms. But, despite what you have read in most media outlets, Ford is not buying parts or designs from Toyota (at this time).
Re:Shouldn't have stolen that code... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:what i'm waiting for (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Shouldn't have stolen that code not informative (Score:2, Informative)
Shifting into neutral does start slowing the car down. Problem is, some newer electronic automatic transmissions won't accept your shift into neutral at that high of a tach. This is especially true of those automatic manual thingies where you can shift up or down without a clutch and whatnot.
But you really need to learn more about your car if you're going to drive one. It's kind of scary to know that there are people out there who think that if you turn off the engine, suddenly you won't be able to brake or steer. That's just not true. In fact, I suggest trying it in an abandoned parking lot sometime. Get moving a bit, then cut your power (NOT all the way to Lock, then your steering wheel does lock). Then try to steer, brake, etc. It'll all still work.
Re:Shouldn't have stolen that code... (Score:2, Informative)
(Assuming no traction control or active stability management or some such thing) there are many cars that can overpower the brakes that they're equipped with especially with an automatic. My volvo can... and ive used it to my advantage off road in a toyota 4x4... and i keep my cars well maintained.
Get real! (Score:1, Informative)
Not unless car manufacturers are really stupid! I've been designing stuff for factory automation for the last 30 years that could absolutely kill people if it malfunctioned. So far, no one is dead yet! The key here is not to let greed get in the way of QA and failsafe design. If adequate safeguards are designed in and implemetation is followed by proper testing and qualification, there is no danger!
Microsoft's comments are crap! It does not take so much testing to make software bug-free (or at least protected against any bugs) that no one can afford it! This is merely Microsoft defending their inadequate testing mentality and procedures. Everyone talks like Microsoft is the standard that all software should adhere to; I strongly disagree!
Re:Shouldn't have stolen that code not informative (Score:3, Informative)
Power for PB(Power Brakes)is USUALY provited by vacum assist. This is created by the "sucking" power of an engine as it pulls air in the intake and pushes it out the exhaust. The engine is an air pump. As long as the engine turns you will get some vac. The effectiveness of PB will dimish at a migh faster rate than PB. BUT, there will be more than enough power in the PB system even after the engine stops rotating to fully depress the brakes to the floor. Basicly, as long as you don't need to come to a full and complete stop more than once after you shut off the engine the PB system will work just fien for you after the ignition switch is set to the OFF position.
Therefore, the best way to stop a vehicle with a run-away throttle is to 1) Kill the throttle, 2) Apply brakes 3) Shift transmission into lowest available gear(to use the fiction of the internal engine components to maximum effect in the effort to bring your vehicle to a stop.) 4) find something to "rub" your car against to use in an effort to bleed off knetic energy (your fenders are now your brake pads.)
Under most circumstances you will never need to use more than steps 1 and 2. In a downhill situation where gravity is adding knetic energy to your vehicle and simply stoping your car RIGHT NOW won't do (fast lane of a multi-lane highway) then you can use step 3 to conserve power in your PB system for when you are going to bring the vehicle to a complete stop. Step 4 is for when your brakes fail (and this get interesting*)
*interesting is defined by having thoughts along the lines of "Oh my God, we're all gonna die!"
Re:When too much tech is a bad thing (Score:2, Informative)
Let's say your old JD doesn't start, and after farnarkling around you figure the rail pressure pump has died. You bypass it so you're running on the fuel pump only, close off or restrict the return line, and get it running well enough to finish off what you're doing and drive it back to the shed.
Or your new JD doesn't start, and the engine light flashing X times tells you the rail pressure sensor has died. You unplug the sensor and the thing runs in "limp home" mode well enough to finish off that paddock and drive back to the shed.
What I'm getting at is neither is complicated - just that people think the latter is complicated because of the oogy-boogy "electronics". People are used to how mechanical stuff works and behaves and haven't (yet) learnt that mostly the electronics is really no more complicated.
The steering / accelerator "drive-by-wire" stuff I've seen is not much nore complicated either. I've only seen a couple of examples of both, but they've all been set up so that there _is_ a mechanical connection there - so when the smarts fails, you can still drive it home. The steering units worked on a variable pressure pump; when the pump failed it was just like a normal power steering failure. And the electronic throttle controls had had cable backups - either a slack direct cble, or an electric clutch arrangement.
The only thing I could think of that'd be a problem is a total ignition ECU failure - something I've not seen since the old Bosch / GM Jetronic units, which were basically complicated electronic points - or the injector controller in a diesel. Which are the electronic equivalent of a coil/ distributor or timing chain failure i.e. something you can't "patch up" in the field anyway.
So "drive-by-wire", implying an electrical-only connection, is something of a misnomer - but it sounds good to the marketing people...
Re:Failover (Score:2, Informative)
Wow.
You obviously don't work with these things.
What less automated system are you assuming to be in place that's actually more reliable than what's out there? There's a reason electronics have taken off. Performance, Reliability, and Cost have all improved immensely with these systems.
Most electronic systems have good diagnostics, and they DO fall-back to a simpler mode. If your engine controller loses the crank sensor input, it uses a smart default. If the anti-lock brakes lose the wheel speed sensor, they go to a smart default.
And, if the electronics outright fail, the system usually goes into a "limp-home" mode, where it still works. It won't work the way you want it to, but, hey, who REALLY wants their car running at 70mph when the suspension controller has failed?
If your power steering goes out, steering still works. If your Anti-Lock brakes go out, they default to normal braking. But, if your master brake cylinder (a mechanical device) fails, you have no brakes at all. Ooops, that less automated system didn't help there, did it?
If the Engine Controller completely bombs out and stalls on the highway, it stalls. Without the controller to fire the fuel injector, there's no fuel. Carburators went away a LONG time ago.
The simple fact is this: The electronics are better. The failure modes are tested and evaluated to death, and, believe it or not, the car almost always does the safest thing.
If you don't believe me, take a look at any of the major lawsuits against these car companies, and look at the TONS of paper they produce that does nothing but cover diagnostics and failure modes. It'll astound you.
Re:Shouldn't have stolen that code not informative (Score:2, Informative)
Also Item 1 in my car-stoping system should be KILL THE IGNITION not KILL THE THROTTLE.
Sorry for any confusion that this may have caused.
Re:Shouldn't have stolen that code... (Score:4, Informative)
While there are only a limited number of economical solutions, it's noteworthy that Honda shipped a completely different CVT design for the Civic hybrid.
Re:Larger picture (Score:1, Informative)
http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/index.jsp [jdpower.com]
Re:Shouldn't have stolen that code not informative (Score:3, Informative)
you must either be living outside the USA, or are very young and has very little experience with your fellow driver on the roads
Yes, 99.997% of all drivers do not know ANYTHING about their car. Hell a large subset of that group can barely drive.
Examples? Ok. offramp, semi and a line of cars taking it. Semi merges onto highway as does 40% of the cars, the other 60% try to speed past the semi on the shoulder/ last 300 feet of on-ramp then get pissy when the SEMI does not jam on the brakes and kill everyone behind them just to let the idiots in front of them.
This happens on a regular basis, People that drive happily at the speed limit continue that highway speed through construction zones (did they miss all the orange barrels?) and get pissy about the people that dared to slow down in the construction zone and not drive 70mph 3 feet from the construction workers.
Most people on the road barely can drive their car safely, let alone an advanced topic like knowing how the car they own reacts in different situations.
Re:Shouldn't have stolen that code... (Score:2, Informative)
The funny thing about the "innovation" of controlling the speed of the planets to vary the gear ratio is really borderline on the unobvious clause; if people look at the governing equations for a planetary gear this should be obvious. Unless the patents are wholly on the controls for this rather than the invariant physical dynamics...I might have to go dig those up.
What's really fun is to keep straight parallel mode versus positive split versus negative split versus series mode on that type of transmission - whoever named those didn't get good grades in "intuitive labelling".
And, if memory serves, Honda's CVT on the Civic is more their "traditional" CVT.
Re:Shouldn't have stolen that code... (Score:3, Informative)
You know, I don't even know why I'm bothering to keep adding to this thread. It's not like anyone gives a crap.