Spyware Becoming Worst Tech Support Problem 814
teknurd writes "Wired has an article about the growing problem of computer users having to call tech support to get help removing all of the spyware on their computers. 'The fast-growing phenomenon is already responsible for more than 12 percent of all technical support calls in Dell's consumer hardware division, the biggest category of complaints this year, company representatives said.' Personally, I have had to remove this plague from the computers of several friends and family members."
Just run Spybot (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:5, Insightful)
When you're Joe Blow at home, that's fine. But when you administer dozens, hundreds, thousands of Win boxes and you can't automate installing/configuring/running Spybot, things are a bit different.
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:5, Informative)
or just make a registry file to add info into hkey_local_machine\software\microsoft\windows\cur
with remote administration and a script, you could have those puppys running mighty quick.
-Andy in Chi
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:5, Informative)
Instead of messing with the registry, download the Excellent Startup Control Panel from Mike Lin's Home Page [mlin.net]. This little Utility is an excellent way to control what does and does not execute on Windows startup. Using this utility you will be amazed at what processes are automatically started, some programs, like roxio's crap, will start 3-5 processes at Windows Startup.
It is also an excellent way to very quickly see if any Adware/Spyware is installed without running Adaware or Spybot.
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:4, Insightful)
I try to teach them how to take care of it themselves, and they have no interest in learning.
Most lawyer tasks are the same, easy to do yourself, but there's a whole bunch of info to learn before you can get it right. I have no interest in learning law-craft.
Spybot on start-up works fine. (Score:5, Informative)
Gee, that's strange. We have 300 Win boxes in my building and about 1000 company wide, not a lot really, but more than a few... Spybot runs just fine from the start-up script. Actually, though, since our machines (all of them) stay on 24/7, we run it and other stuff at night too (but those are scheduled tasks, of course). Need my LAN admin's number?
Re:Spybot on start-up works fine. (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't understand why antivirus companies don't include spyware removal in the virus tables. It wouldn't require any additional programs - they just have to get a signature for each type of spyware and put it i
Re:Spybot on start-up works fine. (Score:5, Informative)
http://forums.net-integration.net/index.php?c=7 [net-integration.net]
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:5, Insightful)
(Come on, didn't people see this coming when Microsoft came up with ActiveX back in the day?)
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:5, Insightful)
For some reason a lot of people seem to believe that using Mozilla/Firefox/Opera makes their box invincible. It's a good start, but should only be one layer of your security.
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:5, Insightful)
I think it needs to be reiterated: It's a good start.
It's a huge first step. I now run firefox, it's the default browser on my windows box. If you've read my comments in the past, I've always been a fan of I.E., and I still am, to be honest with you. I think I.E. is faster, and renders things better than Firefox, firefox (even though it's no where near moz's bloat) still uses more memory, plus there's this annoying javascript transparent thing that Firefox doesn't deal with well, and it just has several little annoying things I don't like.
BUT.
After casual surfing the web (with google toolbar installed to block popups) on I.E. a couple of months ago, I proceeded to get spyware left and right that I didn't even know about! The damn javascript buffer overflow that installs cool web search got me. I had no idea I got it until I ran adaware. Then I got some freaking spyware bug that deleted windows media player and replaced it with a spyware app or a virus or something.
This is just from CASUAL web surfing. I didn't download anything, I didn't run anything, I never clicked "ok" on any of the "you are about to download and install 'CLICK HERE TO ACCEPT OUR AGREEMENT'" things. This was all exploits that hijacked my browser and installed spyware.
Fuck. That.
Firefox only has two advantages over IE+google toolbar: Tabbed Browsing (which i'm starting to like), and security. Until recently, they weren't reason enough to switch. Now, they are.
So, it needs to be pointed out: Yes, there are still ways to get spyware even when running firefox. It's true. BUT, firefox is a HUGE first step. I don't have anything worse than a few tracking cookies now.
AND it needs to be said: It does not mean you're a n00b l00ser if you run I.E. and you get spyware. It's nothing you did wrong. Even powerusers, whatever that means, still get spyware in I.E. You don't have to click to install anymore. It used to be enough to know that you shouldn't download and run stuff that you didn't know what it did. It's not anymore.
~Will
wmplayer.exe - me too. Here's how to kill it (Score:5, Informative)
I had no idea I got it until I ran adaware. Then I got some freaking spyware bug that deleted windows media player and replaced it with a spyware app or a virus or something.
I just fought that one off last night. Took forever to nail it down. Here's what finally worked.
Delete the wmplayer.exe in Program Files/Windows Media Player. Run ad-aware 6 with the latest definitions. That'll zap the crap that it installs, which for me was windows/a.exe and windows/system32/bridge.dll, along with a host of other reg keys and crap.
Because it's windows, reboot and run the scanner again. If it finds anything, repeat.
If you're lucky, you'll still have a working copy of wmplayer.exe in windows/system32/dllcache. You'll know it's the good copy if it's larger than around 6k or so.
Hope this helps, because this one was a total pain in the ass to track down. Good thing my machine is dual boot Linux. And my main windows browser is now Firefox, too.
Oh yeah, on a side note... Whoever wrote the scumware that overwrites Windows Media Player needs to be hung by a pair of thumb screws and roasted over a coal fire. It's one thing to sneak your apps onto a system, but another thing entirely to overwrite existing apps.
Here's hoping their crap gets noticed on some FBI computer somewhere.
Weaselmancer
PS: Just in case there's a friendly FBI guy reading this, take the scumware wmplayer.exe into a Linux install and run "strings" on it. You'll see the URL of the fine folks who brought you this plague. They encrypt their strings by inserting 4 garbage characters over 0x80 every so often, so ignore those.
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:5, Insightful)
I liken our users to toddlers. If there is any way, no matter how ridiculous, for a toddler to injure himself with a toy, he will do it. After only 6 months in IT, I see the user as a toddler and computers as their toys.
I tell them time and again that their Windows XP computers synchronize their time with our servers, but they still install Gator's time manager because the banner says "OH NO YOUR COMPUTER CLOCK COULD BE WRONG!!! IF YOU DON'T INSTALL OUR SOFTWARE YOU SUPPORT TERRORISM!!!" As many posters in this thread have stated, you tell them time and again that MyComet cursor and all those goodies are what makes their computer run slow, but by the week's end you will return because they have installed it again and now their box is hosed.
It's even worse when the computers on the production line turn up with these things. The cost of a stopped line per minute is quite a good bit more than my annual salary. Whoever wrote Sasser owes me a lunch break, because I had to skip it to deal with infected machines on the line. (Yeah yeah, "You should have patched sooner". No one mentions the issues that were reported with early patchers, such as frozen computers, 100% CPU usage, and inability to log in to Windows. We chose to wait until the issues were settled, and it bit us. What good is an uninstall, Mr. Anderson, if you can't boot your box?)_
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:3, Insightful)
And why are critical systems running an insecure OS with a long colourful history of security vulnerabilities? In fact any machine that doesn't need to be connected to a network shouldn't be.
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:5, Insightful)
Sometimes, that's impossible. Try to syncronize a Palm Pilot or compatible with Outlook when you're not running as a system adminstrator under XP. It won't work.
The unfortunate thing is that those people who have PP's are often the ones paying your salary, and they would not be happy with the idea that they might be blocked from updating them.
Trying to argue security with them is (usually) pointless - they've already made several bad security decisions (Windows servers, Exchange running on those servers, Outlook running on the local machine), so your piddly little concerns with security are unimportant!
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:5, Informative)
It's not very common, but it does happen. Check out this thread [mozillazine.org] if you don't believe me.
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:5, Interesting)
So that they catch what the other one missed.
If I was an OEM, I'd get a license from one of the companies to include AdAware/Spybot on the shipped systems and set it to run once a week. That's gotta be worth it to remove 12% of support calls!
My Two Cents, Korean Spyware... The Horror! (Score:4, Informative)
It wasn't so bad before this year. Yeah, there was some spyware out there, but it wasn't like f*cking 'n-case' which replicates itself to random filenames all over your drive and then inserts startup stuff in 'startup', the local and machine registry, and even the freakin' win.ini!!!
I called Sophos on this after spending some two hours cleaning it up. I basically said, "You folks need to take some responsibility here."
The time has come to draw the line in the sand. n-case and others like it, are VIRAL. It can't be removed easily by the user - NO agreement of this nature can be legally binding.
Now for what frightened me the most: Ever have spyware that couldn't be cleaned by Spybot and/or Ad-Aware - even with the latest patches? No? Then you probably don't live in Korea. A few of our students do, and this is where this particular piece of crap came from. It defended itself by making a program that runs at startup that runs a program that insures that another program is there and running THAT, reprograms your home page to a site that ActiveX 'drivebys' your computer to load the program!!!
That was a bitch to clean up (although nothing compared to n-case!). You probably haven't seen this yet because it's a Korean app - but it managed to get on a few American machines here when the Koreans visited a site that installed some 'happy fun cursor' program.
I'm ranting.. But the truth is: Admins have to do their part, but the anti-virus people have got to do a better job also. They need to stop turning a blind eye to this issue.
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:3, Interesting)
I used to think that only computer novices got spyware. But just this past week i got several all at one time. i have no idea how it happened ( i dont even use internet explorer) but it was bad. after i run ad-aware and mcaffee to clean them off, one of them deleted some important files under my system folder, or at least thats what i assume because my tcp/ip wouldnt start. i ended up having to totally reinstall windows. ive since decided im going to try and use windows as little as possible, only when i ne
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:3, Interesting)
>deleted some important files under my system folder, or at
>least thats what i assume because my tcp/ip wouldnt start.
There is at least one adware program that replaces one of the windows internet-related DLL's with it's own version. Adaware didn't handle removing it very well when I came across it months ago, I was hoping they had fixed that. It usually isn't necessasary to reinstall the machine. Removing TCP/IP from the list of inst
point of interest (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:3, Interesting)
My office machine I only use Mozilla except for sites that absolutely require IE, and I sure as hell don't click on or download anything that I don't explicitly want.
My home XP box sits behind a hardware firewall, and except for *very* occasionally, I don
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:5, Informative)
There's nothing you can do to prevent spyware aside from completely locking down systems so users have nearly no permissions to the registry or anything else. This of course means that no programs not explicitly allowed on your network will operate. If you can deal with this tradeoff, more power to you.
Spybot Search & Destroy is a fabulous piece of software but it doesn't do the whole job.
Not entirely. (Score:3)
Entirely (?) removing CoolWWWSearch actually required running both programs.
I believe some of the CWS spyware variants actually replace some of your executables (like Windows Media Player) with a trojan that downloads new versions of these wonderful pets. This is bad because no anti-spyware can help you when this kind of damage is done. You're gonna have to reinstall applications.
I've always tried to explain to people that anti-spyware tools should be your last line of defense. You have to be aware of t
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Install a hardware firewall.
2) Install a software firewall.
3) Install a quality antivirus program.
4) Install Ad-Aware - preferably the Pro version with Ad-Watch.
5) Install Spybot.
The problem is that if you have family or friends that don't know anything about computers and don't seem to care to learn, doing the above will help you out temporarily... and then cause you a huge amount of problems on Windows.
For example, every time the software firewall asks them to approve a connection, they'll either always deny them (screwing up their software) or approve them (screwing up their security). They'll be upset when they can't use a program because it needs ports opened on the firewall. If you show them how to open ports up, they'll eventually just open ALL ports, thinking "now I won't have to worry about doing it every time a new program wants new ports available". The other option is not to tell them how to do this and just do it for them. You are now their bitch.
The other problem is that they'll want to install applications. In Windows, you can set several user levels. You can set a very restricted one that doesn't let users install software or access/modify any documents but their own. Then there's a level that will let them install software and use all documents. Then there's the full power user, backup user and admin user levels.
For security purposes, you would of course want to set their account to a level that will not allow them to install software. Otherwise they're going to be installing every stupid spyware riddled, adware plagued, malicious, wasteful, resource-eating piece of shit they come across. So, now every time they want to install a program, they're going to come to you. You're their bitch.
So the only way to achieve true security is to prevent them from doing anything they really want to do and now you're going to be bothered by every person that you've set up every time one of them wants to install a program or open up some ports. Every time they want to install a game, application, office software, utility, etc.
It's a hassle just dealing with this for one person. Now imagine if your grandmother, an uncle, your mom, two siblings, a neighbor, a girlfriend and two family friends all have you on the hook like this? It never ends. And then people wonder why techies are becoming more and more reluctant to help and more abrasive. Look, it's like being a car mechanic. As a car mechanic, I would not expect my friends to repair their own engine block or diagnose and fix other complex problems - but I certainly expect them to fill their own gas tank, change their own oil, refill their wiper fluid, check and refill their power steering, check and fill their tires, replace signal lights, screw on their license plates, adjust their rear-view mirors and side mirrors and adjust their seats into position.
However, for people who aren't willing (or maybe can't in the case of some elderly people who just can't fathom the concepts) to learn the basics, you'll find that if you don't help them they will end up with myriad of crap on their machines. Dozens of viruses, spyware, programs running in the background to steal resources and processing time, adware programs that pop-up crap all the time, hijacked browsers, three p2p networks starting at launch time and running in the background (eating up memory, cpu, storage, bandwidth), p2p utilities that go with them, "weatherbug" software, msn, yahoo, aim and others, and countless other things. I've seen people with so much fucking shit on their machines like the above mentioned that their machines would start-up and then die, crash or reboot before finishing displaying the desktop. Just too much crap running.
It isn't my job to baby people, teach them every little thing and care for them. They can buy books, play around and learn on their own just like the rest of us had to. If you can't appr
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Install a hardware firewall.
2) Install a software firewall.
3) Install a quality antivirus program.
4) Install Ad-Aware - preferably the Pro version with Ad-Watch.
5) Install Spybot.
Besides the 4+ hours of work that this entails, the specialized knowledge and cash required, a five item list like this is hardly what I would term "extremely easy."
In fact, it's more like saying "Any educated person can boost the performance of his car in 5 easy steps! Just install a turbocharger..."
And it's also worth noting that installing two firewalls like that is paranoid and stupid. Especially if the first one isn't even forwarding ports, something some 90% of computer users don't even need to do. And if you are forwarding ports, then what are you going to do on the client machine? Block those ports? What was the point of forwarding them again?
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:5, Informative)
I have one (1) stock response to all non-business tech support requests. Say this verbatim, and without sounding condescending:
It gives them a useful solution to the problem they're having, is honest (I really don't know a whole lot about Windows versions more recent than Win98), and has one of two outcomes:
PS: You and I know that "big computer" means "FreeBSD web server over in the machine closet", but who wants to get hung up on details?
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:3, Insightful)
So I run Macs, which solves all those problems and more.
Macs are a little more expensive, yes, but the amount of time and aggravation saved is worth every penny.
I run all Macs at home an
Re:Just run Spybot (Score:5, Informative)
If you can afford it, consider donating to the guy. That's a helluva bit of software to be giving away. Either that, or nominate him for the Nobel Prize, if your on the committee that is.
Re:Just run Spybot: A Word From The Trenches (Score:5, Insightful)
Problem is, we're talking about computers owned by the unwashed masses (at least in my tech support job). These are people that call up with a chip on their shoulder demanding that their ISP fix what has happened to their computer. Wonderful ads lik "Earthlink with a free Pop-Up blocker" etc. have now in the perception shifted the responsibility of parasite problems onto the ISP.
A lot of these people don't understand the basic directory structure or how to find something that's been downloaded onto their computer, and walking them through a download of a parasite removal tool, updating it, running it, and then guiding them through what to do with what it has found can EASILY turn into a 2-hour procedure. Most of us have more important shit to do than that. Double that amount of time if they don't have two phone lines and/or cannot be connected to the internet. Any coincidental problems are blamed on your removal tool.
Also, the latest trend i'm seeing, is people calling up to complain about all these popup ads and homepage hijackings/search pages thrown in. You start pointing to all the free games they've downloaded, bonzai buddy, Desktop Calendar, Weatherbug, etc, and you are met with "but i LIKE having my weather updates, i LIKE having my Calendar there" etc.
THEY WILL REFUSE TO LET YOU HELP THEM
Doesn't stop them from still calling you up "i'm still having a problem with all these popups..."
Most machines i've cleaned up (like HUNDREDS of parasites), i'll hand it back to them and tell them what not to do again, and they are in the exact same state in a week's time. They simply go and install all the same crap they had before.
I was warned by many that doing Tech Support for a living was a burnout job, and borderline emotional abuse. But the last couple years of parasites have made it pure insanity. Tech Support is at a whole new low...
"i need to find a new job" is an understatement.
On top of that (Score:3, Interesting)
ad-aware (Score:4, Informative)
Re:ad-aware (Score:5, Informative)
Is there anything better than ad-aware for solving this problem?
Why, yes [safer-networking.org], as it happens! ;)
I've read some suggestions to run both Adaware and Spybot - I've found either to be more than capable on their own, but then I tend to practice "safe-browsing": use Firefox, use Linux where possible, etc.
my experience... (Score:5, Insightful)
Over the last 6 months, I've had to spend more and more time cleaning this crap off peoples machines. I've got it down to a science, though - I keep a disk around with a whole lot of useful tools on it such as:
Spybot search and destroy
stinger
all windows XP / 2000 patches since the latest SP
spywareblaster
and others
Takes me about 15 minutes to clean a machine now. Of course, that is 15 minutes that I could be doing something USEFUL...
Re:my experience... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:my experience... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:my experience... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm [network/unix/Mac/Novell/some windows] support for a ~200 user research place. Every Friday our Director of Research sends out a "what's up" email talking about various projects, etc. A couple of years ago I was asked to do a weekly thing called "Computer Corner". What I do is have a paragraph with a link to an internal webserver I run with more info.
I did a spyware article a while back and on the server had some tools for installation complete with how-to's, screenshots, etc. Naturally some people aren't geeks and are a bit leery of anything remotely technical so we always offer to come do the work if needed. That happened only a handful of times.
If you have a lot of users that approach may be helpful.
Re:my experience... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:my experience... (Score:5, Informative)
The only two to trust are AdAware and Spybot.
Unfortunately the Spybot download doesn't work at the moment, I think it's slashdotted.
Re:my experience... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:my experience... (Score:5, Insightful)
You probably don't have much of a choice, but I would encourage you to look into a Linux migration.
You forget Dealing With Your Boss 101: If Windows causes your pains and trouble, bitch and whine about Microsoft to your boss, he'll "understand" but won't even question your IT choices for the company. If you chose Linux, any little problem, however insignificant, will be Linux' fault, i.e. your fault.
Choosing Windows is a job security choice. Sad but very true...
Re:my experience... (Score:3, Insightful)
If I had my choice, Id have Linux deployed alot more in the backend, but I don't have that luxury. The company is WAY to tied into Exchange and MSCRM to go with a Linux solution.
I AM however, putting SpamAssassin on a Linux box to do mail filtering.
Re:my experience... (Score:3, Interesting)
We do this. The only other things I would recommend would be to tie them in with MimeDefang and ClamAV. Doing that lets you bounce e-mail bourne viruses before they make it into the internal network.
One day last month 1/3 of all of our inbound e-mail traffic was e-mail attempting to deliver viruses. They never got to the user's desk, so they never became a security problem.
Good tools. (Score:5, Insightful)
Spybot Search & Destroy [safer-networking.org] [Best spyware cleaner IMHO, also immunizes against re-installation]
Javacool's Spyware Blaster [javacoolsoftware.com] [works well in conjunction with Spybot]
I used to use Lavasoft's AdAware [lavasoftusa.com] but after it wasn't updated for a while someone recommended Spybot which I've stuck with.
Re:Good tools. (Score:3, Informative)
Ad Aware was updated a few weeks ago to version 6.181 (?) and does a better job of getting rid of stuff (including CWS) than the current version of Spybot. Normally, I would run Ad Aware then Spybot to finish cleaning stuff that Ad Aware left behind, but now I've found that I have to run Spybot first followed by Ad Aware. This may be temporary, but still...
I think it has to do wit
i heard that... (Score:3, Interesting)
Removal Tools (Score:3, Interesting)
Always a winner... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Always a winner... (Score:5, Funny)
Fermat C:
it not only formats the C drive but fills it with results of x^n + y^n = z^n for various values
Bonzi Buddy (Score:5, Funny)
What a Crock (Score:5, Interesting)
What a crock!
Re:What a Crock (Score:5, Informative)
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/12/03/0
Re:What a Crock (Score:4, Interesting)
I've found installing NetScape also helps greatly, as it blocks many malicious pop-up ads. Normally when I'm asked to configure a computer for someone, the last step is to delete shortcuts to IE and install Netscape as the default, people are wierded out at first (I've never seen this browser before! "It's great!"), but after a while they swear by it too.
My brother recently brought a computer I gave him just maybe 5 months ago, home from University for me to inspect, because of "poor performance' (P4 @ 2.6 w/ 1 gig ram, GeForce 4, poor performance? What the hell is he running), well I booted it and opened the task manager, running at 100% NON-STOP, Memory almost maxed, and at least 30 Un-identified programs running. Forget spybot or anything, it's FDISK time! But it gave me some insight into the average user, because he told me he noticed it was running slow, so he uninstalled as many valid programs as possible (of course to no effect), the average user has NO IDEA what's wrong, they just know the thing runs slower then the old Apple II's!
Some solutions to spyware (Score:5, Informative)
Should be integrated into AV software (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Should be integrated into AV software (Score:4, Interesting)
There is one major drawback. McAfee decides what is an "unwanted program" and you can't change it. It stops some tools that I would rather it didn't. However, I've found this trade off to be well worth it as I spend exactly *nill* time cleaning spyware.
I get calls all the time about the "virus" someone or other just got though.
Re:Should be integrated into AV software (Score:4, Interesting)
In the US corporate world, Symantec is probably the leader. If they would just buy Spybot or something, build in a spyware signature download system (as they have with virus), my job would be so much easier. I'd even happily pay them another 5k$ for that feature on our machine.
But this sales guy didn't even know what spyware was.
Symantec really missed out on a big feature that would have set them apart from McAfee.
Reading this article on a Linux box... (Score:5, Funny)
...priceless.
Maybe (Score:3, Insightful)
So last week while playing one of the online games at Yahoo, she is bombarded by countless pop-up ads. While she is a competent user, she knows this is beyond her & asked for my help. S
People (Score:5, Funny)
Within days, they're all back. "But I LIKE my Comet Cursor! I didn't think it would happen this time."
The problem here is that many people today lack basic problem solving skills. They see a problem with their VCR, they fix it. (Clock's off, let's say). They see a similar problem with their computer, and they freeze up and assume they can't fix it even though, in the case of the clock for example, it's the SAME PROBLEM with nearly the SAME SOLUTION.
People don't seem to apply their own basic intelligence to computers. Nor do they seem to learn from their mistakes. "Why did you install Spambar again?"
"I wanted the -feature-. How was I supposed to know it was bad?"
"Because it caused this SAME PROBLEM THE LAST THREE TIMES YOU INSTALLED IT! I HATE YOU! DIEDIEDIE!"
Re:People (Score:5, Funny)
That's because computers all have a Common Sense Exclusion Field generator. Anyone coming into that field turns into a dribbling idiot. However technical type people's brainwave patterns generat electromagnetic field around them that nullifies this field. It also knocks quirky hardware and software back into order, which is why it mysteriously starts working once you show up to fix the problem.
Switch? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not to sound snide, but this is exactly why all my family & close friends run Macs now. It's easier on them, and it's a hell of a lot easier on me, since now I don't have to stop over, run Adaware, and clean their systems for them.
Joe Sixpack and TCO (Score:5, Interesting)
All 3 of computers were unable to surf the web. Teenage daughters had downloaded Kazaa, weatherbug, morpheus and others. I explained the dangers of spyware (and getting sued by the RIAA, hoping the scare them into ending the spyware party) to them last time, with predictable results. I also advised Dad to lay down the law (I'm not holding my breath).
The 98SE box (yeah, I know) was completely hosed. Booted up, auto-launched about 8 different programs, auto popups, and would actually blue screen before I could launch a single app. I blew that one away, reinstalled from scratch, and ran Windows update (requiring 5 reboots) for close to 2 hours (ever run windows update after a clean install of 4-year old media? Not fun).
And he has a hardware firewall and fast cable modem connection: this would have been impossible on dialup (and the clean install would have been compromised within 10 minutes without the firewall).
After all of this, I had all 3 computers working fine, with up-to-date patches, virus protection, and an Ad Aware icon on the desktop. Also a lecture on the evils of spyware to the assembled daughters.
I'll be back there in a month or 2, guaranteed. Let's hope for lots of snow next winter.
Re:Joe Sixpack and TCO (Score:3, Interesting)
So maybe a good solution is to find something legitimate that does that same task and install it for them.
For example, there must be a legitimate application out there that does what Comet Cursor does without the spyware. Install Bittorrent and add shortcuts to various bittorrent sites - if they are going to download music, at least make it download music safely and usefully for other users. An
Disk Images Rock! (Score:3, Insightful)
Is there a real solution? (Score:5, Interesting)
User's will continue installing software they think is cool, or hear about from their friends/colleagues - be it bonzi buddy, kazaa or anything else. Pretty soon they'll start facing problems - the computer would begin to be unresponsive since kazaa is eating all the cpu, searches in google fail because IE is redirected to SearchScout, or whatever else you have/
Cure is one thing, what's the prevention for all this? And I ask this, not for informed, knowledgeable users, but naive home users who don't know any better?
No M$ bashing please. I have heard of several tools that keep track of what's installed and the changes to registry, but haven't come across anything will a simple interface and a "knowledge" of most common spyware (possibly updated frequently from a public server). Such a tool would at least make the customer support job easier!
Re:Is there a real solution? (Score:5, Interesting)
There isn't one. I'm afraid it's that simple.
The real villain is the computing model used. Windows (and Unix, and OS X) has a pretty simple security model: programs are either trusted, where they can run and use local resources, or they're not, in which case they can't.
This means that in order for the user to execute ThisMayBeAGame that it's downloaded from some random web site, the user has to tell the OS to trust ThisMayBeAGame. At which point the user is screwed, because it's got no way of determining what ThisMayBeAGame is actually doing.
...and before you jump on me: yes, I know that all the operating systems I'm talking about support fine-grained access control. Unfortunately, it's only in some areas. Linux only supports it in the filesystem. You can restrict a process to be able to touch some files only, but you can't restrict it to being able to open sockets to certain addresses only or to use no more than X mips of CPU time. Window is even worse because most people (myself included) disable file system access control entirely because it's just too inconvenient; the default user can do anything. I don't know about OS X but since it's based on BSD I assume it's like Linux.
...and yes, I know that you can get high-security patches for some operating systems that do provide this sort of control, but they're not used.
What's needed is a radically different computing model. Instead of a brittle system where all running software is trusted and you have prophylactic systems in place to distinguish between trusted software and untrusted software, you need a failsafe system where it simply doesn't matter if you run malicious code because it can't do any harm.
Managed systems like .NET and Java are a step in the right direction but things need to go much further. Imagine a computing system where your desktop computer simply provides computing resources to a whole ecosystem of interacting software agents. Some of these you put there; some of them arrived as part of other people's documents; some just wandered in off the local network. Some of them may be helpful, some may be malicious. They're all managed by a high-level system that doles out system resources depending on what the user's doing. An agent that's attached to the screen gets more CPU time and real memory than one that's not. An agent that's resident on the machine's local storage gets storage space, an agent that's arrived from the network doesn't. A transient agent can only make network connections to a host if it can present proof that it actually has something to do with that host... and so on.
Such a system would be far more resilient than the current ones. It would also work rather differently, but that's no bad thing. A lot of security issues would simply go away. Of course, there would be other problems that you wouldn't get with one of today's system --- notably, your software ecosystem would waste lots of resources --- but I think that's eminently affordable.
Now, I suppose, all I have to do is to go away and write it...
Windows Live CD + favorite spyware prog (Score:3, Interesting)
Pop it in, computer boots up, runs the anti-virus and spyware removal, shuts down.
Then there is no hassle for the customer about them going to an internet site and installing a program, and then figuring out how to run it.
Re:Windows Live CD + favorite spyware prog (Score:3, Interesting)
Spyware Overwhelms the Average User (Score:5, Insightful)
Many of the newer programs should not really be called "spyware". They are really a form of hijack-ware. They seize control of a users browser and send up an endless stream of ads.
And no, the average user will never be able to cope with this. Most people just want to buy a computer and use it. They are no more interested in learning how to maintain a computer than they are in learning auto maintenance. It's up to the computer industry to deliver usable products to the end user.
Re:Spyware Overwhelms the Average User (Score:3, Insightful)
Most drivers also have driver training, a driver's license, insurance, and know at least that the car needs gas and occasional maintenance
Don't run anything (Score:5, Insightful)
My wife is relatively computer literate. But it comes down to a simple rule.
Don't download anything, don't install anything. Ignore all those taskbars and toolbars and toys.
we've had no trouble.
Online experience (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem is that people install random crap that they don't need, and it causes trouble.
You only need a few plugins or helper apps.
Flash is nice, Acrobat is a must, I grab mozilla too.
I don't find my online experience lacking, I get my emails, I find phone numbers, and get information on other stuff I need. Ebay and online banking work just fine.
MS Subtle shot at the Free Software Movement? (Score:3, Interesting)
I worry that ordinary users will associate the free software work done in the Linux/BSD community with spyware - or more likely that MS will turn up the rhetoric against the Linux/BSD community when the competition gets hot in the desktop space.
Odd... money to be made isnt being made? (Score:5, Interesting)
On the bright side, the big kids staying out of it, allows little guys the like LavaSoft ( ad-aware ), to carve a niche for themselves. However, in a lavasoft type company gets smart and offers virus removal in their tool aswell... why would you not get the do it all tool, instead of two pieces of software?
Its always funny watching big commerical companies miss the boat on stuff like this though
Also, I may be wrong, their may be an AntiVirus product out there that deals with SpyWare. If there is, please let me know!
Re:Odd... money to be made isnt being made? (Score:5, Informative)
STOP RUNNING AS ADMIN! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:STOP RUNNING AS ADMIN! (Score:3, Interesting)
Why can't Windows just prompt for the Administator password when I want to install something? Not offering that practically ensures that almost nobody will use the normal user settings. It simply makes it too difficult to install software.
Talk about stupidity
Are you on Win2K? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:STOP RUNNING AS ADMIN! (Score:5, Insightful)
But I totally agree that many application developers don't understand the concept of running at the least priviledge necessary. So many apps write their config to C:\Program File\APP\ and HKLM, which requires elevated access, instead of writing to C:\Documents and Settings\user\Local Settings and HKLU. Hopefully more people will read 'Writing Secure Code' (from MS, ironically), and windows apps will improve.
its not lazy so much as training (Score:5, Insightful)
So the "Problem" is more Microsoft's failure than it is the users failure. Users use, and are taught how to use. Microsoft perpetrated the "run as admin always" problem, and they directly trained (through the use of their software) vast armies of average users and software developers to embrace this road as the norm and the expected software "reality". Unfortunately it is was a disasterous mistake in many regards (virii, worms, spyware, blah blah)
They need to fix this basic architecture problem, and this will hurt users (learning curve, potential invalidation of older software) and the software industry (re-tooling their software code).
Garbage in, Garbage out?
There is a rather simple fix (Score:5, Interesting)
We coupled XP permissions, SUS (godsend, that thing) and NAV Corporate. NAV updates everyone's definitions as soon as they come out. SUS sends out updates nightly (usually a few days pass after they're issued by MS so we can test and approve them). Firewall keeps dump RPC requests out.
Since then: no viruses, no spyware. Time taken to set up all of the pieces: a few days. Money spent: XP licenses came with new machines, NAV cost a couple grand, SUS was free. Time and frustration saved: priceless.
Biggest problem is IE plugin structure (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, as you all know, anyone can go to Verisign and buy a certificate for authentication purposes, but most people take certificates to mean that it's certified safe software. For the uninformed user, there's little difference between this and the latest Macromedia Flash plug-in.
Even worse, there are a lot of sites that cause Internet Explorer to go into a loop with the plug-in. By that I mean:
1. Plugin for "FREE SphyWhere Inc. ToolBar Search!" presents itself to user.
2. User presses "No" button or the close window button to avoid installation.
3. IE comes back with a dialog that says "You MUST install free toolbar to gain access!" and then has to click the "Ok" button or the close window button on THAT dialog.
4. Process repeats itself at Step 1 and continues in perpetuity unless the user is fast enough to be able to close the actual browser window before the plugin pops up, or until the user consents, or unless the user shuts down Internet Explorer.
This occurs primarily on porn sites, but it will occur many times on legitimate sites (e.g. VG-Network, formerly Dave's Video Game Classics for classic games [vg-network.com] and one of the music lyric sites (can't remember which off the top of my head).
The root of the problem here is that - surprise - Microsoft has continued to let websites exploit this peculiarity in its browser. The end result is that users get frustrated and either inadvertently or out of frustration simply allow the spyware to be installed. Even worse, if the user is dumb enough to have "Low" set on their security settings due to their own inability or unwillingness to learn about basic browser functionality, all this spyware will get installed automatically. Some users I believe continually complain about their computer being slow to the point where they're prompted to upgrade unnecessarily because of spyware they don't know that they have.
So...on every fresh Windows install I do, I do it behind a NAT router to begin with, install all service packs and security updates and drivers, then put a software firewall on the computer, then an antivirus app with Trojan detection, and finally a spyware removal app. Then I instruct people to go to Windows Update every day, their virus update every day, and Spyware check every week.
Isn't spyware fun?
Nip it in the bud (Score:4, Insightful)
What are the worst offenders? Those programs offering either "cute" or "informative". Desktop wallpaper, custom cursors, so many toolbars and geegaws to make your browser look like CNN's Headline News. A time updater. A date updater. A weather notifier. Hate to tell you, but I have a watch, a calendar, a radio, and a window. Between these four things, I think I'll know what the day/time is and what weather is coming.
What would these same users do if they drove up to a street corner and there was somebody waiting to plaster their car with a flashy bumper sticker in exchange for their friends' email addresses? I would hope that these folks would just drive away. So why does it work on a computer screen?
Hell, half the problems business have could be solved if companies just banned access to all the websites that produce these programs. Can't download Weatherbug or Webshots if you can't get to the websites in the first place. No need to visit each individual computer if you can use the firewall to do your job for you. Anyone have a list of those evil IP addresses they'd like to share? (and by "evil" I mean, well, "evil")
You can look under the hood yourself (Score:5, Informative)
Run regedit:
Start->Run-> "regedit"
Look in:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE
SOFTWARE
Microsoft
Windows
CurrentVersion
Run
RunOnce
RunOnceEx
The Run is an especially attractive haven for spyware companies. That's how spyware programs run their programs after users reboot their computers. If you suspect there are weird entries in these registry keys, download spyware removal software and run it. If you don't know what you're doing don't mess with the keys.
I also check TaskManager regularly for weird processes. It's a bit technical, but after a while you can see which processes belong and which ones don't.
Re:You can look under the hood yourself (Score:3, Insightful)
Old Hat (Score:3, Insightful)
If they're on a broadband connection I get them a hardware firewall. I don't even ask, I just buy it and hand them the bill. I also enable automatic updates. I generally use free tools like ad-aware and spybot, tiny firewall, a free av scanner if they're too cheap, etc.
In what has to be the most painful bit for them, I give the Inevitable Security Lecture. Their attention span being what it is, I only hit the high points. I point to the Windows Update icon, explain what critical updates are, explain what spyware is (and how to use ad-aware & spybot), etc. It's probably a waste of time, but you never know.
There you have it. I've been through it over and over. Like I said, old hat.
Does Mike's Ad blocking hosts file cover this? (Score:5, Interesting)
I know mike's ad blocking hosts file does it for pop-ups, but what about stuff like bonzi buddy?
If so I'd like to put it on my dad's computer. Problem is, a lot of little rinky-dink apps he downloads have spyware just piggybacking on it. Then again there's a few utilities that take care of that.
Ahh i can see in a few years we'll have a nice internet that will blindfold themselves to such malicious sites.
[X] marks the spot (Score:4, Informative)
Please don't tell them to call their ISP.... (Score:5, Insightful)
DON'T! Please!
A comparison I had to use yesterday with a customer because they were getting angry that we(ISP) would not help them was:
If you have a car, don't maintain it, ignore the recall notices, drive without your seatbelt and slam it into park while still moving, you're going to have an accident or break the damn thing.
Do not call the DOT/highway department because of it. We can't and are not going to help you.
An ISP's job it to provided a customer an internet connection. Not to be their free tech bitches for any and every issue that comes along. We view virii and spyware as OS issues and not the ISP's connectivity issue.
Our qualifying test is.....if your computer was in perfect working order, can you get on the internet. If it's not.....call us back when it is and we'll help you with the internet.
That may sound a little customer unfriendly but when queue hold times are over 30 minutes and every customer is pissed off, you have to draw the line somewhere.
If we fail to hold computer users responsible for their own actions, we are enablers of the behaviors we are complaining about.
Re:i know.... (Score:3, Insightful)
The new trend I've noticed is if you end up on a website with one of those stupid pop ups that gives you "Do you want to install junkWebBar" you click no, and it still tries to install (my firewall catches this). It still manages to install itself though, my firewall ends up catching it when it tries to get out for the first time.
You can try running mozilla but then you run into websites that just break in it because they aren't coded for web standard
Re:Good examples of source of problem (Score:3, Insightful)
Just tell your wife that she could get fired by installing that crap. It's like letting someone into the building to spraypaint the walls. Company computers aren't yours, and installing crap is akin to damaging company property.
I mean, you wouldn't take a sledgehammer to a company printer or fax machine, would you? (insert obligatory Office Space joke here)
CWshredder (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Not an issue for OS X users (Score:5, Insightful)
And users react in one of two ways, if not both:
a) they routinely put in the password for everything
b) they bitch about "this is stupid, why can't it be like windows where I never have to enter a password" and if they're really troublesome, they'll find a program that will enter their password FOR them
This is the same reason I roll my eyes at "Linux has user accounts and only one root so it is perfectly secure" posts. Most people would then run, day-to-day, as root. People would still install every trojan horsed piece of shit that comes along.
It doesn't matter how many locks you have if you hate unlocking them, so you leave them open.
Re:Does Spybot S&D Immunize really work? (Score:4, Informative)
In 24 hours, one machine had over 60 viri quaranteened and several pages of crap that spybot picked up.
After enabling immunize, their infection rate went to almost 0.
It's not perfect, but it is a great help, IMO.
Pay Up (Score:4, Interesting)
The problem here isn't spyware developers. The problem here isn't the Nigerian spammers. The problem here isn't DDOSing skript kiddies taking over thousands of machines on the Internet. The problem here is users who expect to be able to be allowed to be completely ignorant of their extremely complex system while at the same time being protected against the hazards that they will encounter on the Internet.
The solution is quite simple; force those users to learn the fundamental basics they'll need to protect themselves from all the above hazards, and require them to take a test to determine that they're at least minimally able to protect themselves. Additionally make it easy for a person working in a technical capacity to revoke that license ("I'm revoking your license. If you want it back you'll have to take the class and the test again.")
Elitist? Is requiring a driver's license so that idiots won't go out and kill people on the road elitist? Is requiring a ham radio license so that people won't go out and interfere with legitimate services elitist? The potential exists to do as much or more damage with the Internet. We can no longer allow users to be blissfully clueless. A license is a public affirmation that they are aware of the responsiblity they take when connecting their computers to the Internet.