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The Internet Security

Anti-piracy Vigilantes Tracking P2P Users 864

brevard writes "From SecurityFocus comes news that a pair of coders with a deep hatred of software pirates have gone public with a months-old experiment to trick file sharers into running custom spyware they wrote that scolds users and phones home to a server. They circulated the program disguised as sought-after downloads like Unreal Tournament 2004 and Microsoft source code, and they have a website that updates in real time whever someone executes it. They've logged IP addresses for over 12,000 'pirates' since January. The EFF says the vigilantes may be committing a crime."
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Anti-piracy Vigilantes Tracking P2P Users

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  • which crime? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by slavemowgli ( 585321 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:11AM (#8608572) Homepage
    Out of curiosity, which crime would they be committing?
  • Heresay and Slander (Score:5, Interesting)

    by PeeAitchPee ( 712652 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:12AM (#8608582)
    Who's to say these guys aren't mixing in IPs of people, who, for example, might have flamed them on message boards? I'm sure their end game is to get a job offer from the RIAA and MPAA . . .
  • Re:Trojans (Score:5, Interesting)

    by s20451 ( 410424 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:13AM (#8608588) Journal
    Yeah, that's rich. They have a log of everyone who received a copy of their cracked software. Guess who gets that information in a deal with the Feds?

    Actually, I think this is pretty clever.
  • Just wait. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Moryath ( 553296 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:13AM (#8608592)
    It'll be about two more days now till someone alters the code and delivers a REAL malicious payload through the damn program.
  • Sharing Trojans (Score:3, Interesting)

    by ravydavygravy ( 230429 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:15AM (#8608602) Homepage
    What I can't understand is why people would continue to share these programs once they realised they contained a trojan... The authors stopped sharing them because they found users were propogating them well enough anyway.

    Surely any sane person would delete corrupted/malicous downloads from their shared directory?
  • by Nova1313 ( 630547 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:16AM (#8608616)
    I write software for a living. There are places when it should be free. And there are times when it shouldn't (like when It goes to keep my lights on and my car running) I dont think it's wrong to download something even if it is say a copy of a game or music. There is nothign wrong with downloading it to me. It's when you actually use it without the license that it's wrong. Now I know poeple are going to say who downloads something and doens't use it. But honestly what if that happened? If someone had say 6000 mp3's they have never listened to but just had the data on disc? What makes that illegal exactly? It's not like it's owning stolen items. It's 0's and 1's in it's basic form. Just because it plays on an mp3 player doesnt' mean it's an mp3. You could run it through another piece of software and get today's weather data. Trojaning something like this is so disrespectful to others privacy. They definatly should be punished.
  • Vigilante (Score:4, Interesting)

    by clifgriffin ( 676199 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:20AM (#8608652) Homepage
    As clifgriffin, I speak for myself when I say that "vigilante" is not a word we ever claimed. We aren't raging against internet piracy or p2p. We're just doing a social experiment...to see how a program spreads, who downloads it, etc... Kapersky has flagged it as a Trojan, though I still stand firm in my belief that this is in no way a trojan as it does nothing even slightly malicious. I don't think we'd have the "Trojan Horse" analogy to fall back on if all the soldiers in the horse had done was send back a message saying they'd arrived. :D
  • It is legal (Score:2, Interesting)

    by TenPin22 ( 213106 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:22AM (#8608661) Homepage
    If I download some random file from kazaa and run it, I'm the only one to blame for what it does.

    Its just irony that some of the filenames they used would contain illegal content if they were what they claimed to be.
  • by IshanCaspian ( 625325 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:23AM (#8608674) Homepage
    the software's not disguised as actual pirated software, but the keygens and cracks. AFAIK, those are in much more of a legal gray area than actual pirated software. Theoretically, if someone legitimately owns a piece of software, and they're on another computer, and they have the original installation media and they forgot their cd key at home, it wouldn't be terribly illegal to load up a keygen so they could play a round or two.

    Or hell, even take the Baldur's gate series. I bought every single game in the series, and I still crack all of those games since I don't want to have to put the cd in when I play. What about somone who has their GUID banned by punkbuster? I don't believe they have any right to stop me permanently from playing a game I bought online...what if I just use a keygen and get another key?

    Anyways, there's really not much of a case for what these people are doing. Besides, if they like vigilantes so much, what do you say we show them what a DDOS looks like?
  • by Leffe ( 686621 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:24AM (#8608681)
    Um... with a clientside virus, what would stop them from tracking it? (and probably irc client independant as they can just read the IRC(and whatever else you use) protocol data directly)

    Evil crackers like these criminals are no less clever than the rest of us, they just put their cleverness into more questionable things ;)

    Oh, and a question about IRC to anyone: The '/me' command, aka special CTCP action thingy... why does it use CTCP!?!?!?
  • Legal precedent ? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by agslashdot ( 574098 ) <sundararaman,krishnan&gmail,com> on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:29AM (#8608717)
    From the article - programs have circulated disguised as activation key generators and cracks for Unreal Tournament 2004, Pinnacle Studio 9, Norton Antivirus, TurboTax

    IANAL, but this is certainly illegal. It is akin to a sting operation, like when you open your car door for the hooker on the street and it turns out she's really a cop and you are arrested for soliciting & prostitution.

    You can't drop dollar bills on the road & then arrest citizens for stealing when they pick them up.

    Using temptation to get at potential thieves does not constitute law enforcement, unless I guess you are the FBI or somesuch.

  • by breakinbearx ( 672220 ) <breakinbearx@hotm[ ].com ['ail' in gap]> on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:31AM (#8608730)
    but is it wrong? It doesn't spread itself, others spread it. When you download a piece of code off of a p2p network, you take a risk that it isn't what you think it is. Obviously, these people are rather intelligent, and it appears that they aren't evil, and just want to teach certain lawbreakers a lesson. And although it is vigilante in the sense that they are stepping outside of the law, they're not doing anything harmful. Now, if they were formating someone's hard drive when the executable was launched, it would be different, but this is just a small rebuke.

    Props to these guys for sticking up for whats right.
  • Re:Vigilante (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:36AM (#8608771)
    The best way to detect crap like this is to use one of the websites that list CRC's of known safe/good files on kazaa.. simply match up after download and voila... you got a good, not virused to hell copy of LOTR MRTG early Beta Keygen + server..

    but yeah, I also catch these lame attempts at trojans on the p2p networks... their file sizes are always way wrong, and if you notice, the same group of fools sharing it and the other incorrect files...
  • Re:Vigilante (Score:2, Interesting)

    by clifgriffin ( 676199 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:36AM (#8608775) Homepage
    We knew exactly who would download it.

    Which is why we did not shy away from obvious flags such as the Company Name "C.R.A.P: Citizens Raging Against Pirates".

    Morons, yes.
  • by flewp ( 458359 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:38AM (#8608791)
    2. The software acts with the confines of its own entity. The program does not compromise their system in any way, shape, or form. Every action it performs it performs soley for the purposes of logging an event. We are not in this to compromise downloader's systems, only to learn a little bit about who they are. It's a social experiment.

    Let me ask you something, if you went to install something, say what you thought was the google search bar for your browser, and instead found out it was giving out information, wouldn't you be a bit pissed? It's doing something other than what was intended. Sure, the software you're replacing might be illegal, but nonetheless, my point still stands.
  • Re:Sharing Trojans (Score:4, Interesting)

    by SmackCrackandPot ( 641205 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:41AM (#8608809)
    why people would continue to share these programs once they realised they contained a trojan

    When P2P file-sharing programs are in use, the users are usually downloading bucket-fulls of stuff. So between the time the download of the file has been completed, and the time that the file is unzipped and run, there is a window of opportunity for re-distribution to take place. Given the small size of the file, it would probably be ignored until the download of larger files such as movies and warez has been completed, if not forgotten entirely.
    (Like your looters or panic-buyers during a power cut - they're grabbing everything they can get their hands on, because it's there for the taking, not because it's of any practical use to them).
  • Re:Vigilante (Score:5, Interesting)

    by biobogonics ( 513416 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:43AM (#8608828)
    As clifgriffin, I speak for myself when I say that "vigilante" is not a word we ever claimed. We aren't raging against internet piracy or p2p. We're just doing a social experiment...to see how a program spreads, who downloads it, etc...

    Just like Robert Morris [wikipedia.org] did in 1988?

  • by Uninvited Guest ( 237316 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:43AM (#8608834)
    This is pretty funny. The more successful the program gets, the more this pair is creating a potential distributed denial of service attack on their own web servers.
  • by DrSkwid ( 118965 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:45AM (#8608852) Journal
    they just put their cleverness into more questionable things ;)

    like this : independent

    The '/me' command, aka special CTCP action thingy... why does it use CTCP!?!?!?

    because CTCP uses in band signalling that something special is happening /me is not part of the irc protocol and therefore is considered 'something special'

    CTCP uses ^A or chr(1)
    You'll see from this table [cs.tut.fi] that ^A is defined in ASCII as :

    A transmission control character used as the first character of a heading of an information message.

    Curiously the authors chose to end the text with another ^A rather than ^C. In their defence there is no End of Heading marker defined. /me is a client dependent implemtation of how to send : ^AACTION : $emote^A

    You can see the other CTCP messages here [invlogic.com]
  • by Kjella ( 173770 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:47AM (#8608872) Homepage
    Say an idiot employee downloads & runs this crack/warez/whatever at work. Unauthorized and all that, but that's his ass. Now, this software is reporting home to somewhere. Let's assume the idiot's sysadmin finds out. The employee might get sacked, but who do you think will get charged with hacking (cracking) the corporation's network?

    You got it. Just the costs of verifying that it DIDN'T do anything else, didn't alter or delete any of the data on the computer, didn't transmit any of the potentially sensitive data and (if paranoid enough) rebuild the system is going to rack up to quite a bit.

    If they give them one count of hacking for each machine on their incredibly self-incriminating list, I imagine even the minimum penalties would add up to life. So I would be very worried if I was them...

    Kjella
  • Grrr! (Score:1, Interesting)

    by troon ( 724114 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:49AM (#8608884)

    This makes me really angry!

    No, not the guys or their program, it's you lot. Yes, you complaining about "infiltration", "trojans", "illegal use of the 'victims'' computers" and so forth.

    What's the matter - someone doing something to break up your cosy little gang of illegal copyright infringement?

    So what if it's just cable-connected kids they're tracking - it's still infringement and should be punished, or at least discouraged. I'm all for this.

    there goes my karma...

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:50AM (#8608892)
    They seem to have dropped out of the public eye. Aren't those two ever going to be charged under the DMCA for circumventing protective measures, or under the NET act for unauthorized access of others' data? Why is the USG publicizing cases against grey hats when there are already high-profile black hats known to be working in official capacity?
  • Vigilantes (Score:4, Interesting)

    by CFBMoo1 ( 157453 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:53AM (#8608915) Homepage
    Wired has one on a vigilante group that goes after perverts in chat rooms that prey apon children. [wired.com] As much as I admire the intent of every day people to keep things clean, decent, and honest. I also have to agree with points in this other article where law enforcement is being hampered by scaring off the bad people to go deeper underground and the problem just gets burried and not delt with completely. Next thing you know you have a problem thats 10x's worse then before since it wasn't handled properly to begin with.

    In the case of the software vigilantes. They're in for a world of legal hurt I think even though their basic intentions are good.
  • by clifgriffin ( 676199 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @09:55AM (#8608935) Homepage
    The point would be, genius, that I don't log anything simply because they open up an executable from an unknown source from a P2P network while they were trying to find a crack.

    The logging happens when they click a button.
  • by flewp ( 458359 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @10:03AM (#8609011)
    Okay, sort of off topic, but what if you asked if they wanted to buy some grass (as in slang for weed), and then you sold them real grass? Is that still illegal? Technically you offered to sell them grass, and you did.
  • by theLOUDroom ( 556455 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @10:06AM (#8609042)
    I believe most of us feel angry when reading about these vigilantes. I know I do. However, I would encourage all of us to remember that if these vigilantes were, say... tracking down spammers... then we would be extatic.

    Speak for yourself. Maybe you're a hypocrite, but I'd be just as pissed if the program was targeted at spammers by calling it "1millionemails.exe".

    Computer crime is computer crime, and this is definately it. We need reasonable, legal, long-lasting solutions to the problems of the net, not some jackass breaking into system in a vain attempt to combat what he sees as a big problem.
  • From their webpage (Score:4, Interesting)

    by ottffssent ( 18387 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @10:07AM (#8609063)
    <html>
    <head>
    <title>Operation Dust Bunny: Deployment Status Page</title>
    </head>
    <body style="margin:0">
    [1]

    Offhand, I'd say today we're not tracking *anybody*...
  • Re:Trojans (Score:5, Interesting)

    by bcolflesh ( 710514 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @10:09AM (#8609075) Homepage
    I wonder if his desktop software product [extenshun.com] also contains trojan code?
  • by theLOUDroom ( 556455 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @10:16AM (#8609135)
    Care to define how it's illegal?

    It's illegal for the same reasons that selling you something that I call a "stolen car amlifier" that is really a tracking device or bomb is illegal. It's fraud, misrepresentation, and in this case, theft of services. It's also illegal under various state computer crime laws.

    What they're doing is just as illegal as distributing a program called "Spywareremover.exe" that reformats your hard disk as soon as you run it.

    They're lying about what the program is and using it to take control of someone's computer without their permission.
  • Re:Trojans (Score:1, Interesting)

    by tomhudson ( 43916 ) <barbara.hudsonNO@SPAMbarbara-hudson.com> on Friday March 19, 2004 @10:22AM (#8609192) Journal
    As you say, the software they offer has different functionality than the victim expects. Sounds like fraud to me.

    Now, for those who say it isn't fraud because no money changed hands, I would make the same argument that we use against spammers:

    the victim is defrauded out of the following

    1. time (to download, to delete, etc.)
    2. information (they've conned information out of him that the "victim" would never have given had he known the true nature of the software - in a way this is worse than spammers.
    3. your disk space
    4. your bandwidth
    5. your time
    ... all under false pretenses/
  • Re:Trojans (Score:3, Interesting)

    by GreyPoopon ( 411036 ) <gpoopon@gmaOOOil.com minus threevowels> on Friday March 19, 2004 @10:23AM (#8609197)
    I'm not so sure. The file was freely downloaded from their machine by others, who then passed it on.

    OK, let's put this into perspective. Let's say that you write a trojan and send it out via email. The people who receive the email run the attachment and then forward the message on to their friends. After a while, you go public and let everybody know about the trojan. Don't you think you'll get a visit to Club Fed?

  • Re:Trojans (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Tony Hoyle ( 11698 ) <tmh@nodomain.org> on Friday March 19, 2004 @10:28AM (#8609247) Homepage
    If any of their victims were in the UK they have committed a crime - unauthorised modification of data on a computer - which carries a 5 year jail term.

    So if the US don't want to prosecute them there are extradition treaties to fall back on...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 19, 2004 @10:29AM (#8609253)
    yeah i bet noone sent them the shareware fee for their crappy software.. so they decided to do a fake crack.
    THIS ISNT A NEW IDEA someone who made a fucking GAMEBOY EMULATOR made a fake crack for it, which WIPED PEOPLES PALM DATA.. he later claimed it was 'a joke that got released by mistake'
    ive had to use 'warez codes and cracks/keymakers' no-cd cracks for games I BOUGHT but lost the cd case for .. or even a game i dont want to keep the cd in the drive for to play it.
    having a crack isnt illegal.. its only illegal if you use it to warez something - these guys and their stupid trojan dont prove that at all... and if the crack theyre trojaning isnt even a real crack.. then theyre just 'outing' people who downloaded a FAKE crack. wow!
  • UT2k4 crack (Score:5, Interesting)

    by nukem1999 ( 142700 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @10:29AM (#8609258)
    In just the past two days, Unreal Tournament 2004 keygen and cracks have become popular filenames.

    I pre-ordered the special DVD edition of UT 2k4 about 2 weeks ago. $42 and change. I get it home, pop it in a DVD drive on a different machine in the network, mount the drive on mine, and install. Try to run it? *BZZT* "Wrong disc inserted." Many people on the official forums had the same error with the game in a drive on their local machines. Crack -> piracy? No. It's been rather long established that at least a few paying customers will have problems with the cd check. I can't say about UT2k3, but in the original UT, they removed the cd check in an official patch since so many had problems.

    Although I was smart enough to get it from somewhere reputable. They could have gotten something a LOT worse than an IP tracker.

    I could have been holding the legally purchased, pressed media, wearing the free headset and finding a place for my free Atari shameless-self-promotion stickers while these people posted my IP address (or even more information, I didn't actually go to the list to see) with a pirate label. (note: On their site, the images of the popup say "don't worry your secret is safe with me", and now the list has even been /.ed. Cute.)

    Yarr indeed.
  • by maximilln ( 654768 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @10:31AM (#8609277) Homepage Journal
    This brings back memories of The Twilight Zone and the box that says "Do not open until Doomsday".

    I think it's long past time for Doomsday.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 19, 2004 @10:34AM (#8609299)
    Sometimes I download cracks for software I own because I lost the CD case. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
  • Re:which crime? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Cthefuture ( 665326 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @10:36AM (#8609314)
    Besides the "compromising other systems" thing there is another issue.

    You can't distribute or appear to be distributing copyrighted works (like Unreal Tournament). Even if what they give you is not the real thing they might still be punished under law (at least in the US).

    It's the same thing as selling sugar as "cocain" in little baggies on the street. You'll still get arrested for selling drugs.
  • by Tony Hoyle ( 11698 ) <tmh@nodomain.org> on Friday March 19, 2004 @10:41AM (#8609377) Homepage
    Hmm that's not illegal here... it's well known that when the new students arrive every year some jokers sell them 'grass' and make a nice income from it.

    They're not actually claiming it's illegal, though... Saying 'Wanna buy some grass?' when the stuff you're selling really *is* grass isn't even fraud...
  • Re:which crime? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by dheltzel ( 558802 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @10:45AM (#8609439)
    However, I'm fairly sure that Epic has the ability to remotely de-activate codes that were being illegally distributed (with the game validating your code with a central server before you're allowed to play online) - they already have a system in place for dealing with people spreading codes.

    Interesting.
    Combine that with the recent report of a trojan that harvests codes from infected machines and you have a recipe for creating a new sort of havoc. If the trojan harvested codes are published in such a way that they get disabled, you'd have a sort of DDOS against a game company. It could overhelm their ability to sort out which users were legit, and piss off a lot of legit users at the same time. If you get enough personal info, you might even attack specific people to get them banned from the game for "sharing" their code if they do something you don't like.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 19, 2004 @10:47AM (#8609464)
    Indeed. Modify the files to implement a huge collective packet magnification / smurf type attack and release it back into the wild. That will shut these fucks up real quick.
  • Re:Trojans (Score:0, Interesting)

    by maximilln ( 654768 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @10:49AM (#8609497) Homepage Journal
    That's a short-sighted view.

    The real criminal is the company that charges $100 for the latest game knowing that it will sell at that price for no other reason than a carefully socially engineered populance. I know it sounds like a conspiracy theory but at what point is taking advantage of the ignorant going to be a crime? If it all falls under the "life's not fair" category then someone needs to tell that to the major media companies and software producers that do nothing but whine about their lost profits. They can dish it out but they can't take it.
  • by David McBride ( 183571 ) <david+slashdot&dwm,me,uk> on Friday March 19, 2004 @11:07AM (#8609724) Homepage

    The point is that anyoen(sic) with a legitimate use for a legitimate tool would get it from a legitimate, trusted source.


    Tools are not imbued with some intrinsic legitimacy. That is determined by how they are used -- and who is judging them.

    Someone who grabs something they have no clue about from a place they know nothing about, and runs it on their PC without checking what it is:
    Is clearly thick as pigshit
    Is up to something they consider illicit.



    Your conclusions are wrong and your logic is faulty.

    The person who ran that code didn't intend to compromise their machine. Ergo, they trusted the source.

    As with tools, legitimacy is determined by the person making the judgement -- one person's legitimate source may be another's evil monopoly-abusing nemesis.

    They probably also had some idea of the stated purpose of the tool and thought that it would be useful to them. That implies a basic level of understanding.

    It is difficult to know what code to trust and what not. Running binaries downloaded from an unknown user is clearly unwise, but that's not a crime.

    Finally, wishing to perform an action in private does not imply that the action is illicit, or believed to be illicit by the person performing that action. Your contention to the contrary is equivilent to saying "If they are commiting no crime, you have nothing to hide/fear."

    Which is not always true, in fact it is rarely true.
  • Re:UT2k4 crack (Score:4, Interesting)

    by WormholeFiend ( 674934 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @11:11AM (#8609781)
    From what I read on the Atari forum threads, Epic (the game makers) is pretty much against CD checks, but Atari (the game publishers) forces them to put it in.
    -
  • Re:Trojans (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 19, 2004 @11:26AM (#8609960)
    Actually the doctorine of "clean hands" says that you have no civil protection if you are defrauded while engaged in a criminal enterprise. While the actions of the "vigilantes" may be criminal and thus they could potentially be arrested, tried and jailed, the stupid mother fuckers who are attempting to get something for free have no fucking recourse. Too bad for them. Boo hoo. Stick with opensource software or pay for your commercial software and we might give a shit.

    Food for thought: imagine how much worse it could be. It could actually be erasing peoples' hard drives or attempting to flash random garbage into their BIOSes. There are so many destructive things that could be happening, I don't see what the big deal is in this case.

    Hell, if I was Epic I would be putting 0-day versions of the game onto the p2p networks myself. And then after about two weeks have it completely trash the users machine. If they were quiet and a little bit discrete they'd get away with it.
  • by maximilln ( 654768 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @11:26AM (#8609966) Homepage Journal
    -----
    only means that the police officer cannot pressure you to commit a crime
    -----
    Hypothetical situation: A police officer stops you in the street and demands that you stop to answer some questions. You are in a hurry and ask if he's conducting an investigation. His response is negative, he's just lonely and wants to chat. You ignore his pleas and continue on your way.

    The police officer arrests you for obstruction of justice. Additionally he uses the obstruction of justice as reason to search your person and finds a pack of cigarettes without the wrapper in your coat. He writes up an additional ticket for possession of contraband goods (cigarettes without the appropriate tax stamp).

    Note: This isn't a hypothetical situation but REALLY DID HAPPEN.

    So please, quit talking about legality. We live in a subjective police state and no lawyer really cares unless there's a potential to get rich quick.

  • by goatan ( 673464 ) <ian.hearn@rpa.gsi.gov.uk> on Friday March 19, 2004 @12:29PM (#8610769) Journal
    It is not my belief that we are required to tell them that we logged the fact that they clicked "I'm Sorry. I Promise Never to Do it Again."

    To take someone's information (you don't even have to post it) and keep it is ilegal [hmso.gov.uk] IANAL but it is my job to make sure my employer is compliant with this. If I were you I would stay away from the UK and Europe you could end up in jail for up to 5 years.

    I would also stress that this information is harmless to them as we proved only that they downloaded a file with the same name as a crack...nothing that poses any kind of threat at all to them.

    Irrelevant you did it without there permission.

  • by presmike ( 754040 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @01:11PM (#8611362)
    think roadrunner might be pissed at all the port 80 traffic to 24.31.106.207... now i don't have roadrunner but, if they are anything like comcast... these guys are breaking the AUP by running an illegal websever. But remember folks... they are the "good guys"
  • Re:Trojans (Score:3, Interesting)

    by maximilln ( 654768 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @02:25PM (#8612402) Homepage Journal
    Capitalism is not a crime. In a truly capitalist system the demand feedback is moderated by the price of the supply.

    We do not live in a capitalist society. Get the politic-speak out of your heads, people. A capitalist system which is subject to the tens of thousands of rules, regulations, and controls that we have in the US is... anyone...?

    Communism.

    Communism is an economic system controlled by the government. Capitalism is an economic system controlled by the flow of capital. In the United States we have an economic system that's controlled by... anyone...? The government.

    This very simple concept is proof that our government run schools are working perfectly to obscure the dominant role that our government plays in the economic conditions of our time. To most educated people this is indicative of... anyone...? Socialism. To the cynical educated people this is indicative of... anyone...? Fascism.

    Just because you want to live in a capitalist republic, and just because your politicians feed your dementia to garner your votes, doesn't make it real.
  • So, what if I open up both my Wireless Access Point and my ADSL Router to the world, and drop a file on my shared box that's "incorrectly" named??

    Let's say I drop on a copy of BackOrifice, and "accidently" rename it to "Paris_Hilton_Video"..

    Am I now guilty of some form of digital luring or *entrapment*?

    ~m

  • Re:Legal precedent ? (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 19, 2004 @05:47PM (#8615160)
    I don't know why this is moderated flamebait, but it is correct.

    The police most certainly DO use bait cars like this that lock the theif inside.

    The principle behind "entrapment" is that you cannot induce them to commit a crime they otherwise would not have. So they cannot, for example, ask you to steal a car for them (because they're actively inducing you to commit a crime), whereas they can leave out bait and if you take it, you're SOL.

    That said, someone else pointed out that it's also illegal to sell people fake drugs (e.g. oregano as weed). Even if it were harmless, I understand that they still bust you for it. Now then, I do not know if that principle applies here, though it seems somewhat like it ought to.

    The real problem is that we don't have very good bright line standards for what constitutes intrusion into one's computer (or rather, we have incredibly restrictive ones to which prosecutorial discretion is generally applied, meaning that by the time you're actually charged, you're probably SOL if you actually did so much as a portscan). The fact that they are doing this under false pretenses certainly does not work in their favor.

    This is not, however, the first time such things have happened. I understand that there is at least one case of a fellow in the netherlands or somewhere similar (?) distributing trojans to catch child pornographers, then turning them in, one by one, to the police. The case was almost dissmissed due to the fact that the police there replied to him, saying that they appreciated his help, and they couldn't really bust him for anything (the act apparently not being illegal in his jurisdiction*), but that he had to know that while they were investigating this, they could not have him do it as an agent of the police. Since all they did was effectively fill him in on US law there, the court narrowly decided that he was not acting as an agent of the law, but if he had continued as such, they might well have had to throw out the cases against the pedophiles.

    In short, nothing is all that clear-cut. Even all the folks here talking about downloading cracks or replacements for their broken CDs are probably actually breaking the law. That's not to say their actions would definately not be considered fair use, but that's not to say either that they couldn't be prosecuted for their actions. For example, the no-CD cracks when used in a more-or-less legitimate manner (by someone who owns a copy of the software) may still be in violation of the DMCA. The courts have NOT always been as kind as I wish they were in deciding what constitutes what, and we cannot assume that everything which we believe is morally right in some way is necessarily legal, that what is legal is necessarily morally right (think of SCO...), nor that what is illegal is necessarily morally wrong (many abused provisions of the DMCA, such as using it to attempt to extend one's monopoly on say, printer cartridges).

    (* This star is here because courts have been known to excercise personal jurisdiction (e.g. make you answer for the laws of the jurisdiction of that court) for all sorts of reasons. Pretty much everywhere has a 'long arm of the law' statute, so it's pretty much a matter how much trouble someone wants to go to. There was a nice tutorial on this online somewhere, but I cannot remember the URL. I think that if you Google 'personal jurisdiction' you should find it at cyberlaw.com or somewhere with a URL akin to that...)
  • by sublimespot ( 265560 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @06:48PM (#8615952)
    I had the same comment. Also use VMware for that untrusted app, so that no malicious code touches your real disk. You dont want BastardTrojan overwriting your winlogon.exe or other stuff like that...
  • by f0rt0r ( 636600 ) on Saturday March 20, 2004 @01:38AM (#8618852)
    IRC is more protected from fraud by a trust network than a technical protection. You see, the way it works is the channel operators limit who can serve files to users who are voiced, and the only way a user can get voiced is to earn the trust of the highly untrusting operators.

    Now, say the vigilante behaves well in the channel for a few months, and the operators meet and vote that the vigilante is trustworthy and therefore can be voiced. The channel protection bots are given the vigilante's IP/Host/Nick combo to identify the vigilante and give him voice when he enters the channel.

    Ok, it's been several months and now finally the vigilante and run the channel approve fserve software and is still watched by the operators since he/she is still new. Once someone downloads the keygen from the vigi. and discovers it is fake, they msg the channel ops and report it. The vigi loses voice rights and the whole matter is investigated and a decision is made to permanently ban the vigi since the trojan was discovered.

    Now, the vigi can try to get voiced in several channels at once, but most channels won't voice you if you serve in more than 2 other channels, and some won't give you voice if you serve even in one other channel. The vigi still has the option of changing IP/Host/Nick and starting the process all over, but it will again be months before they will be considered for voice again. And if someone figures out that this is the same guy they banned before, his new identify will also get banned from the channel.

    However, there are some computer illiterate people on IRC, so if the vigi spams people randomly with private messages ( spamming a channel can be easily blocked ) with the connection info to their server with the fake keygen, saying 'go here here to get UT2004 keygen;, I am sure some will fall for it. But if the vigi is reported to the IRCOPS and they can track home down, its kline time for him. Kline means he cannot connect to the IRC network at all, which is different than banning, which only excludes him from one IRC channel.

    So you can see how the IRC system presents unique challenges to the vigilante that P2P applications current do not have. That said, I use the eMule client on the Overture network, and it autoblocks clients for various reasons, and it does have a system for both rating and commenting on shared files. Something very useful that is does is track files by md5 checksum, so you can actually see a file that is shared under several names. Its funny to see "Hardware Wars.mpg" was renamed to "Star Wars Episode 2:Attack of the Clones" and other names, flagging it as a fake.

    Well, I feel like just wrote a term paper on IRC and P2P networks, so I am calling it a night(11PM here ) .

    Until next post....

Old programmers never die, they just hit account block limit.

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