Widespread Keyboard Failures on OLPC's XO-1 264
otakuj462 writes "Many participants in OLPC's 'Give 1 Get 1' program of last November are now encountering what has come to be known as the 'stuck key' problem, in which one or more of the keys on their XO-1 laptop's built-in keyboard become stuck in an activated position, or are activated when adjacent keys are pressed. As of January 30th, the official word from OLPC is that the root cause of this problem is unknown because '[t]here are several manufacturers of the keyboards.' ('So far we don't know of any _reliable_ method of fixing the keyboard or the exact root cause.') It is unknown just how widespread this problem currently is, as the 30-day manufacturer's warranty has already expired for most G1G1 participants. However, the OLPC forums are full of reports. OLPC is currently deploying the XO-1 to children in Mongolia and Peru, as well as other developing nations. If OLPC is actively deploying units with known, critical hardware bugs, without a dedicated support infrastructure in place, to children who have never seen a computer before, should they still be considered to be a responsible organization? Did OLPC deploy their hardware too soon?"
First post? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:First post? (Score:4, Funny)
you get what you pay for... (Score:2, Insightful)
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Re:you get what you pay for... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:you get what you pay for... (Score:5, Informative)
I don't think that... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I don't think that... (Score:5, Interesting)
Agreed. And the competition is going to make as much hay with this as possible.
While this kind of thing happens to the major manufactures, having had this happen right out the gate is going to be a permanent black mark that intel, asus and the rest are going to use in their advertising. OLPC should have been more careful to ensure that faults could be repaired. After all, these are going to the third world, and over there they fix all kinds of things we would throw away.
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Does OLPC have "competition" in any meaningful sense? The Classmate doesn't compete directly with the XO, since Wintel is simply bribing its way into markets; technical problems with the XO won't have any effect on the "purchasers'" decisions. And among the beaten wives that consist of OLPC's first world sponsors, this is just a reason to give OLPC even more free money for fucking up. Again.
OLPC won't have any real competition until a Chinese cloneshop starts churning out identical units at 3/4 the pri
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Re:I don't think that... (Score:4, Insightful)
The places which need these devices the most won't necessarily even have a national keyboard layout, and often multiple languages, so where there's different keyboards, being able to switch key caps becomes more important, not less.
Anyhow, changing key caps is one thing, but changing a keyboard another.
Easy replacement of keycaps and locale settings on a device doesn't help much if the problem is with the underlying keyboard mechanisms. Then you need to repair or replace the keyboard, which has diddley squat to do with the legend on the caps.
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The XO uses a gel-type keyboard. Individual keycaps are not replaceable. The entire keyboard, however, is easily replaceable.
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The keyboard, of all things, should be easy to swap out for a new one--it is after all the primary input device on the computer, and if you lose that, you lose the computer.
I find this to be an irritating trend, one that Apple seems to be taking the lead on. One of the things that computers brought to the table with the PC revolution was the concept of modularity. That if there was a problem with one modular component, it could be easily replaced with another and the whole was still good.
The principle applies to creating new components. As long as the new did what the old did (albeit in a more efficient way) it didn't matter because the components were designed against
Re:I don't think that... (Score:4, Informative)
At the moment, the bottleneck for people in the US is getting replacement parts -- in the meantime, you can install an ASK-3100 keyboard [instructables.com] instead (for +clickiness and -waterproofing).
Re:I don't think that... (Score:5, Informative)
The summary does read like something out of a consumerist society -- "Product break, what we do now?" Well, you fix it [olpcnews.com].
I wonder if OLPC is regretting G1G1 at all, putting thousands of XO's into the hands of people for whom it was never intended. The XO is for children and geeks, and if they ever plan to release one to the general North American consumer public, yes, they've got a lot of work to do. In fact, I'm not even sure it would be possible in the near future at the price point they're aiming at.
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I wasn't aware that the Geek was ever the intended market.
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By not offering the product to the general public, they not only screwed themselves at the start trying to meet minimum production numbers, but also a source of income (non-profit doesn't mean they can't make money at all...) - they G1G1 program should have been a long-term strategy starting at day one.
It's quite a noble cause but that cause does not benefit at all from restr
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The underlying reality is the OPLC had to get out there as soon as it good, so that it be refined, and continue to develop, a continuing process. Along the way, there will always be for profit corporations who see the OLPC as nothing more but a source of profits and seek to take
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The summary does read like something out of a consumerist society -- "Product break, what we do now?" Well, you fix it [olpcnews.com].
I own a problem XO with a stuck keyboard, and although the fix in the link you provided has provided temporary relief on occasion, it has never been a permanent fix, and the problem recurs in a very unpredictable manner. The link to the OLPC Wiki provided in the original news story above does provide instructions that an experienced UNIX user can use to re-map the alt and control keys for a more lasting fix. Unfortunately, I have also experienced sticking in other keys (including space) that cannot be ea
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Even the best care doesn't necessarily mean it's not going to fail. A single stray speck of sand might get into a key mechanism and wear them out in a blink.
I think the fact that it costs money to replace, as well as lost use while waiting for a replacement, should be enough. Somehow, I thought the XO was supposed to be designed such that it's field serviceable because of the projected circum
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In fact, if the laptops tend to break easily, they will probably be tossed aside as just something else that can't be used, and may even engender resentment against whoever supplied them.
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Were you grown in a vat? (Score:5, Insightful)
In "non-consumerist" societies, kids are equally rambunctious and can easily drop or knock things over.
Long before I was a "consumerist" to use your venom-dripping terminology, I was breaking stuff. Haven't you ever heard a parent complain that kinds understand the value of nothing?
If a kid has no real concept of value anyway, what on earth would motivate him to be more careful than with anything else they are used to playing with?
Re:Were you grown in a vat? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't want to be seen to be defending your snarky reply, but it's relevant to note that the issue of caring for the XO laptop is a real one.
It is not, however, because of children's inability to see the value of such a device. I work in development, and I've tested the XO. I've also written about it [imagicity.com] a fair bit. The big challenge for children using this device will be the lack of ready infrastructure in the village.
When you have to walk several miles to school in the rain with nothing more than a banana or a taro leaf to cover you, the XO is vulnerable. When you have to wade across one or more small rivers on your way to school, the XO is vulnerable. When you live in a house with dirt floors, the XO is vulnerable. When you have to contend with the fact that your many siblings might well want to share the laptop, the XO is vulnerable.
BUT... I've tested a late prototype and seen for myself that, whatever its faults, there is nothing else available that even begins to approach the XO for robust construction. Try to imagine any other computing device surviving what I've described above. The XO laptop is the best available technology today, and that's why we'll shortly be deploying our first pilot project.
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My entire snark was directed at the notion that these kids would be any more careful than kids would be with equipment here - kids are kids was the point I was really trying to get across, and you need something that can wear we
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Re:I don't think that... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Our society is totally geared to consuming vast quantities of goods, most of which we don't even need. Disruptions in our consuming can cause economic disasters. Government and corporate policy ensures that this type of society continues (see any "don't buy day" ads on TV, ever?). Therefore, I think "Consumerist" is not that unfair of a brand even though it does sound gross.
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Also, you haven't made the case for the "Consumerist" term any more because you still have to deal with the fact that every societ
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I really doubt the XO keyboards have anywhere near such a short half-life, and like the summary says, there are many vendors which can be
Live with it (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Live with it (Score:5, Funny)
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Actually... A solution (Score:2)
While expecting children in the developing world to learn to configure X would be silly, perhaps this is simply a UI design problem:
If modifier keys can get stuck and a remap could help, maybe the following sort of prompt can be built into an XO software update:
"Is this key stuck?"
"Press a new key that you want to replace that key with. You can change this later on the key replacement screen."
So the remap happens, and the kids don't have to learn X.
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No, someone who knows some English just googles for the information same as everyone else. The weak point is internet connectivity. The value of the whole exercise is seriously diminished without it.
XO review (Score:3, Funny)
Re:XO review (Score:5, Informative)
Better battery life (3x) to read books.
Networking capabilities that the EEE doesn't have.
Preinstalled software suitable for learning, teaching and collaborating.
Available quality support in your country.
Aside from that, EEE would not even exist without the OLPC project. Laptops exist since the eighties.
The OLPC was needed for this kind of machine to even exist. Even if their machine wasn't the best, their objective would be accomplished.
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Aside from that, EEE would not even exist without the OLPC project. Laptops exist since the eighties.
Ridiculous statement. The Sony VAIO Picturebook (PCG series) precedes both the OLPC and the EEE by a full decade. The EEE is the next gen of truly useful fully-functioned ultraportables like the Picturebook, et.al. On the other hand (and on the opposite of the spectrum from the EEE and the PCG), the OLPC is --- despite its noble aspirations--- merely a glorified toy, and is performing as such.
30 days warrenty? (Score:2)
Re:30 days warrenty? (Score:5, Interesting)
They are not required by law to have a three year warranty here or even a one year but I have never seen a new computer have under a one year warranty.
Re:30 days warrenty? (Score:5, Interesting)
They are not required by law to have a three year warranty here or even a one year but I have never seen a new computer have under a one year warranty.
Actually in Europe consumer goods are required to last for a reasonable length of time. Two years is the minimum period mentioned in the consumer sales directive [europa.eu] but member states are free to institute their own (longer) periods and higher consumer standards.
Perhaps this is the reason why the OLPC wasn't sold in Europe ...
Rich.
Re:30 days warrenty? (Score:5, Informative)
(Replying to my own posting ...)
Actually in Europe consumer goods are required to last for a reasonable length of time. Two years is the minimum period mentioned in the consumer sales directive but member states are free to institute their own (longer) periods and higher consumer standards.
In the UK, the period is six years, under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 [bbc.co.uk]
Rich.
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Yes and no. If something develops a fault within the first 6 months the retailer has to prove that there was no fault/poor workmanship in the product (hard to do, unless you've obviously abused the item). After 6 months the onus is on you to prove that the defect was there all along waiting to happen which is a lot harder.
It's not impossible, I had two identical monitors (purchased at the same time) plugged into the same graphics card on the same computer (dual monitor setup). After about 2 years one of
Re:30 days warrenty? (Score:5, Insightful)
http://wiki.laptop.org/go/XO_Giving/Europe [laptop.org]
The OLPC is not a consumer product. They don't have the infrastructure to sell it as such. If you buy millions, they can sell support, including hardware, and warranties.
They are not iXO's. Their goal is not to sell laptops for everybody. They are making this for kids who might use them to learn. Both objectives don't have to be acheived together, and don't even need to be compatible.
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Erm, that page says to me that it's not being offered in Europe. They prevent you from paying with a non-US credit card and they stop your from shipping outside the US, undoubtedly because they don't want all the support and warranty issues with Europe.
Rich.
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Uruguayan kids have their laptops without _any_ help from the G1G1 program. We have the money to buy them, and to pay for support. We just don't have the infrastructure or influence to build them that cheap, or to even embark on our own on a project like this. That is the help we needed, and it's appreciated.
The G1G1 program is nice, esp. for testing. But it's just another part, even if you yell that it's a CRITICAL part. Real kids have tested them in proyecto CEIBAL, in Cardal, Urugua
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Check out the Sale of Goods Act 1979: http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/wirral/Consnews09.htm [tradingstandards.gov.uk]
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In short, if th
I'm nt hvng an prolems (Score:4, Funny)
Fix it yourself (Score:5, Insightful)
Therefore the idea is that people fix things themselves. This is a good thing if things are built with this in mind. Repair your own thinkpad (no problem), repair your own ipod (no chance).
If we have any hope of saving the planet from being one giant landfill dump, then we really need to learn to fix electronic devices ourselves.
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Not to mention the target audience doesn't exactly have an electronics store in their backyard. Or a soldering iron. Or perhaps even an outlet.
(Cue Kung Pow... "Let me know, if you see a Radio Shack")
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Whatever you do, don't let him play Black Betty....
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Electronic technicians are very easy to find there.
Anyhow, I don't think they could be of much help.
The computers come with a very reasonable support contract with Brightstar, and they should be taking care of the repairs.
Re:Fix it yourself (Score:5, Insightful)
The ignorance of this statement is astonishing. There have been reports of a problem with OLPC keyboards. People have had success repairing the problem. You don't know anything about the service strategy of the OLPC (as witness your statement about the 30-day warranty, which is for G1G1 OLPCs, not end-user OLPCs).
And yet, you're fully prepared to make a harshly critical and categoric statement about the failings of the project, as if it were proven fact, not your completely ignorant conjecture.
Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh, but really, "face it?" Face what? A completely random statement from a random person? Why should we "face it?"
Easily fixed for many (Score:5, Interesting)
Not quite sure what is meant by "we don't know of any _reliable_ method", unless perhaps it means something that works for everyone the same way 100% of the time, and there's some small number of units that can't be fixed by disassembly and wiping the area under the affected key with isopropyl alcohol. I didn't even go that far with mine, I just pried up the edge of the keyboard mat near my stuck alt key just enough to get the q-tip in.
The XO is designed to be like the old Volkswagen Beetle -- cheap and easily fixable by non-experts in the field. Yes, it would have been nice if they weren't prone to stuck key syndrome, but it's not the end of the world, and these are fricken amazing devices at twice the price.
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Good point. They might have to use spit.
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Be realistic. (Score:5, Insightful)
Some people are simply delusional (Score:5, Insightful)
Some people are simply delusional. When I participated in G1G1 I assumed there was no warranty. My guess is the 30 day warranty is only there because of some stupid law. The way I see it, I made a donation to the OLPC Foundation, and got a neat little example of the technology I was funding. If mine had experienced any problems I would never have dreamed of draining OLPC's resources by returning it for replacement. I would have attempted a repair and reported on the success or failure of my repair, so that the knowledge could be disseminated to the children using the laptops.
I haven't experienced any problems, and I really wish commercial companies would adopt a technology like its screen or its ability to take falls and keep on ticking, and especially the power-saving technologies which makes this thing the only laptop that has never run out of juice one me; I carry around three heavy batteries with my regular laptop and run it in its maximal power saving mode and it still doesn't hold a candle to the OLPC.
The keyboard doesn't have the best feel, and I would only want commercial companies to copy it when making a keyboard for children. It is spill-proof. When I've spilled hot coffee and cold soda on it, I just had to wipe it off. Again, this is unlike my Sony Vaio and Lenovo T-61 keyboards which I've had to replace when even take-it-apart-deep-cleaning did not restore functionality post spill.
From what I've read, it appears the stuck key problem is fixable with a cleaning. Taking apart an OLPC is _much_easier_ than taking apart a commercial laptop, so I think this whole complaint is completely overblown. I'm not going to go so far as to say the article poster is an Intel sock puppet. I've seen they crazies who talk about having "bought" an OLPC right here on slashdot. Since the OLPC has never been on sale to individuals, you know these people are delusional right off the bat. The apparently large number of these folks either speaks to the success of the G1G1 program at reaching many many people, or it speaks to the sorry state of the war on drugs at it's goal of combating the crack epidemic. Either way, these idiots should be ignored, and I hope the folks at OLPC do not take these jokers seriously.
My only disappointment with the G1G1 program is that it wasn't G2G1, Give 2 Get 1. That could have resulted in more laptops in the hands of children, and fewer laptops in the hands of these complainers.
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There's a G1G0 program [laptopgiving.org].
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OLPC won't find it so easy to extract a second check from donors whose laptops fail prematurely.
Cynical me or not, I hate to have to admit it, (Score:2, Insightful)
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When Negroponte talked about a 100 dollar laptop, everybody was laughing at him, saying it could not be done.
They are selling under 200 dollar laptops, with a good chance of making them for 100 dollars in one year or two, or at least for the equivalent to that amount, taking into account currency devaluation.
Other people are selling cheap, good laptops now, and a new market has emerged. Their vision, that was far fetched, is now very close. I think the OLPC is al
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Guess what? You're not our mission, slashdot (Score:5, Insightful)
Thanks - MOD UP (Score:2)
You are right I think that the people purchasing laptops here misunderstood the nature of what they were buying and the arrangement that went into it. But sadly you'll find that many people do not ever read the fine print, and will crucify your company for not being just like every other electronics maker even though you are not trying to be.
I'd recommend starting off with a public plea noting that r
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No donation for you!
Jealousy (Score:2)
Do you have a confirmation number (Score:3, Informative)
1) Try the Order Tracker at http://laptopgiving.org/ [laptopgiving.org] using your original email address, OR your 10-digit reference number.
2) If that fails to clarify, please send:
* Your 10-digit Reference / Order Number
(or PayPal confirmation number if you have no such records)
* Order Date
* Order Method (PayPal/Phone)
Who cares?! (Score:3, Funny)
Now, let's all drop our pants and have a circle jerk to the Powa of Da Collective! w00t!</sarcasm>
Of course, right now, some poor little kid in the middle of some hellhole is cursing his America POS computer.
New Rule! (Score:5, Insightful)
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As a G1G1 buyer...typing on an XO-1 (Score:2)
If it turns out that a significant number of keyboards are dying in the field, they may well end up having to ship a few boxes of replacement keyboards to the various
They meant in other countires (Score:2)
Not if you are talking about the other poor (I mean in the sense of income, not that they are getting these laptops!) countries that are receiving the laptops - if a lot of keyboards break there, and there's no easy means for people in those countries to get repairs, then there is a problem.
I had thought though that with large government contracts that some of these countries are purchasing, that support came along with ti.
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How come we don't see anything now? (Score:5, Insightful)
Really why is this even a post today that far back?
Mine's fine (Score:2)
I reported the problem - Ticket #5658 (Score:4, Informative)
http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/5658 [laptop.org]
Although the cause is still unknown, I do believe that the way I was holding mine could have accelerated the issue in my case:
I held it in my left hand with the lower left corner of the base in my palm - My fingers being under the base and my thumb being over the base in the left corner. I would then type and scroll with my right hand, so the entire weight of the laptop was being held at the point where my thumb was pressing on the lower corner - The laptop would essentially flex down and to the right.
The problem presented within 4 days of receiving the laptop.
Since I have received my replacement, I have not held the laptop in same fashion - not even once - and will not.
And luckily, so far so good - I've not experienced any problems with it.
-- start rant ---
I was also the first person to send mine back based on the bug, *BUT* I wasn't the first to be mailed a replacement.
If you read the threads on the bug you'll one of the tech guys next-day-aired some other dude a laptop after his was returned for testing - I was a little bummed!
All of the official messaging from OLPC says that a replacement cant take as long as 30 days. I waited for 30 days and then called support.
They informed me that it would be several more weeks before they shipped my replacement.
Actually, I received it less than 48 hours after getting off the phone with them.
By the way, the support staff are incredibly nice!
-- end rant --
Replacement USB mini works well (Score:3, Informative)
Since I have basic shop skills and know how to solder I did just that, spending about $35 for the keyboard and about 4 hours making the modifications. I couldn't be happier with this modification. The action of real keys doubles the usability of the XO, especially for people like me who have big, clumsy hands. I used to dread having to enter enter text on the old keyboard. The new mini keyboard is a joy to use and I can type in my normal style and rate. Highly recommended if you are up to the task.
I'm personally quite disappointed in both the OLPC manufacturers as well as the response by some of the G1G1 donors. The faulty XO-1 keyboard may be the downfall of the whole project and all we in the US can do is whine, and hope a factory in China can fix the problem.
I fully disassembled my original XO keyboard and found the sticky key problem is clearly a design flaw in the way the two membranes are held apart. The bottom membrane has a serpentine array of traces which are exposed to contacts attached to the upper membrane and are arranged in small groups under each key. The top membrane has small circular contacts, with clusters of 2 -17 contacts under each key Separating the membranes, and holding the contacts apart from the traces below, is a pattern of rubbery glue, printed into linear traces between key rows and small diamond shaped dots internal to the rectangular groupings of contacts above. Most keys have an array of 4 contact dots with a 2mm, diamond shaped spot of glue directly between all 4 contacts. However the Ctrl, both Hand and Alt keys as well as the ] key have 6 contact dots with only 2 super tiny dots of glue to hold the membranes apart. Apparently these keys are the ones which stick the most often. For these keys, the designer placed the center pair of contacts in the group of 6, directly over a trace below with little separating glue. The only possible repair would be to separate the membranes and place additional dots of glue over the traces on the sticky keys. OLPC need to come clean about this mistake and build a better, more robust keyboard and make them available to all XO-1 owners.
(PS. This message was entered on my hacked XO, under Opera)
Why slashdot, why? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:saw that coming (Score:5, Insightful)
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The XO-1 is not a consumer product. It is an educational tool, and the children who receive them aren't worried about comparing its warranty to that of an xbox they've nev
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Yeah! It's just Cheetos (fapfapfap), really, (fapitafpitafapita) and (UNF!!!) Dew.
Whew.
Cheeep a$& k3ybord....
Re:Clean keyboards (Score:5, Interesting)
The whole point of having the sealed membrane keyboard design is that it's a lot harder for dirt to get into it. The whole top of the keyboard is a rubber membrane with no openings, so there's nowhere for dirt to get in. Also, unlike other membrane keypad designs, the membrane itself does not provide one of the contacts for the key. It merely applies pressure to the underlying plastic layers that actually have the contacts. The top plastic layer also has very few openings. It would be very difficult to get enough dirt into the keyboard through normal use (even in dirty conditions) to cause the keys to stick.
Mine developed a sticky control key after a few months. Opening up the laptop (compared to most laptops, it's easy to get into) and peeling back the top rubber membrane (it's lightly glued down to the plastic layers), rubbing the affected area to make sure the contacts were not sticking together, and reassembling the laptop seems to solve the issue; I haven't seen the control key stick since.
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It's a given computers are going to break, and the geeks-to-be using OLPCs need all the help they can get. Of course not all OLPC users will repair their own gear, but we can be sure that some of them will rebuild them from parts just as many of us learned to do.
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At first you say it'd be difficult to get enough dirt to make the keys stick under normal use, and then the very next sentence you said the keys started sticking after a few months. Are you using them in a factory or in the desert or something? What is so abnormal about your environment that it makes the keys stick?
Hmm... When I read that, it sounded to me like he's saying "it's difficult to get dirt in there, and yet the keys still stick, so the cause is probably something else".
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Pick any two (if you're lucky):
Better, Faster, Cheaper
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The problem I have with the OLPC is that they still haven't any announcements or even plans for a regular commercial release of the machines. Give that