The Anatomy of Money-Mule Scams

Brian Krebs of the Washington Post's Security Fix blog has up an article on work-at-home money mule scams (backgrounder blog post here). These operations offer victims hundreds or thousands of dollars per week for moving money through their own accounts — a critical piece of the infrastructure for profiting from identity theft and phishing. The article links to the site of a UK fraud fighter named Bob Harrison, who lists hundreds of fradulent money-mule operations.

I have been trying

[El Lobo]

I have been trying for months to be selected by one of those scammers just for fun and to investigate the whole process. I answer every single strange letter from generous companies, rich princes, ex-gobernants of obscure countries, etc. I replay, playing a stupid character, and get so long as getting a few replies. Then, without a reason, they get absolutly silent.

I don't know if they get caught or if they just smell that something is fishy, but I guess they are smart and they are searching for a given profile: not too smart, not too dumb, just right....

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[account_deleted]

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[Icarus1919]

Try this: www.spamyourenemy.com

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[clang_jangle]

Then, without a reason, they get absolutly silent.

Must be your sig.

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[BillGod]

I have been trying this myself for a long time. I have responded to every email I have ever gotten. None have ever contacted me back. I would love to see what I can torture them with. If no one has seen this you have to go hear. www.419eater.com Some of the things they make them do is hilarious.

Re:

[mdonley]

Be sure to check out the approach used in the "My Butterfly Guy" [scambaits.com] rouse used by some very convincing scambaiters... Read through the whole story, it really is incredible how it all played out...

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[Anonymous Coward]

I replay, playing a stupid character, and get so long as getting a few replies.

I think that's your problem. They aren't looking for stupid people. They are looking for greedy people. You need to be suspicious and pretend to let your greed get the better of you. For example, say you don't trust them and want a higher cut. Read about the people caught in scams. If you read carefully, you'll see they aren't normally stupid, but greedy.

I've been doing this sort of thing for years.

[Shag]

I'm just a pawn in a complicated scheme to surreptitiously move money from my employers to my creditors. And there are thousands of others like me.

Re:

[morgan_greywolf]

You, too, eh? And here I thought it was just me!

Thousands, eh? Maybe we should start a club.

Re:I've been doing this sort of thing for years.

[downix]

never thought I'd be quoting Drew Carey...

"we have a club, it's called EVERYBODY! We meet at the bar."

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[jo42]

You mean billions instead of thousands. Welcome to modern slavery.

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[account_deleted]

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[smithmc]

  I'm just a pawn in a complicated scheme to surreptitiously move money from my employers to my creditors. And there are thousands of others like me.

It's even more complicated than you know. The money flows from your employer's customers, to your employers, to you, to your creditors...

all for the easy buck

[downix]

That this scam can even work is a product of supplier-side economics. Where people don't have to work to get what they want. That it is all about me me me.

Get rich quick schemes never are quick and they don't get you rich. never have, never will. Grow up and get a real job. Want to make $100k a year, go to college to earn that degree for a position that does make $100k a year.

Re:all for the easy buck

[balsy2001]

The only get rich quick scheme that works is selling get rich quick schemes to idiots.

Re:

[JaredOfEuropa]

The only get rich quick scheme that works is selling get rich quick schemes to idiots.

Sounds funny, but that's what some people over here actually do. They post one of those "Work from home, set your own hours, make up to $4000 a month" ads. You contact them (usually on a cell phone nr.) and they'll ask you to send them $100 for a Starter Kit. This kit basically contains instructions on setting up your own "Work from home" scheme to scam others, by selling them your Starter Kits. In a strange recursiv

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[Bob-taro]

In a strange recursive way, this scheme is not illegal here (NL) because the advice in the kit is sound and delivers exactly what was promised in the ad, namely a legal way to make money working from home.

Interesting. In the U.S., I'm pretty sure that would be considered a "pyramid scheme" and therefore illegal. The people who start it may make a lot of money, but once there's no one left to recruit, a bunch of people just lose their starter kit money. The idea of it NOT being illegal is interesting. It raises the question of how much should a government do to protect it's citizens from their own foolishness.

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[SQLGuru]

Actually, I think (NAL) it's legal because there is an actual product being sold.....and you don't necessarily have the whole "piece of their action" thing going.

Layne

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[tattood]

Actually, I think (NAL) it's legal because there is an actual product being sold.....and you don't necessarily have the whole "piece of their action" thing going.

Per the U.S. Federal Trade Commission: [ftc.gov]

"Pyramid schemes now come in so many forms that they may be difficult to recognize immediately. However, they all share one overriding characteristic. They promise consumers or investors large profits based primarily on recruiting others to join their program, not based on profits from any real investment or real sale of goods to the public. Some schemes may purport to sell a product, but they often simply use the product to hide their pyramid structure."

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[RockDoctor]

Interesting. In the U.S., I'm pretty sure that would be considered a "pyramid scheme" and therefore illegal. The people who start it may make a lot of money, but once there's no one left to recruit, a bunch of people just lose their starter kit money.

As SQLGuru points out, the critical thing is that a stand-alone product is delivered.
If the kit included an instruction (backed up by some sort of technical measures, perhaps) to send $10 of each $100 revenue to the person who sold you the original kit, then it

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[Ced_Ex]

The only get rich quick scheme that works is selling get rich quick schemes to idiots.

Lies! The other get rich quick scheme that works is to start your own religion!

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[kestasjk]

Which degree gets you $100k?

My guess would be

[Chrisq]

A first-class law degree?

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[ari_j]

Not typically, unless you are willing to live in a place where that's not much money anyhow and work 90 hours a week to try to get to the billable hour expectations of your firm. See this NALP article [nalp.org] and others on their site for more information.

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[TheThiefMaster]

Possibly one in management, if you can find one.

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[CastrTroy]

Maybe not in your first day of of school, but there's a lot of degrees that will get you in the door, and on your way to making $100,000 in the first 10 years.

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[everphilski]

Aerospace Engineering.
Financial Consulting.
Plenty of other fields...
You won't make 100k the year you walk out of college with your diploma, but you will soon thereafter (I'm an engineer; I work with guys in their 30's pulling down six figures in engineering.) if you are a good, hardworking employee. There is no turnkey solution for high pay. You have to work hard, but the rewards are proportionate.

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[SQLGuru]

Any job will pay $100k, I was playing Life the other day....and I drew the $100k salary card. It was great....well except for the whole "no raises my entire life" part.

Layne

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[CastrTroy]

I know one guy who was convinced that there was an easy way to make money. He just had to find out how. Sure, some people get lucky and end up making millions in the stock market, or on some weird investment, but it's not something you can really depend on. If you want to make money, you're probably better off just working hard, and sticking to some kind of consistent market.

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[innocent_white_lamb]

The father of a friend of mine has spent his entire life chasing the big dollar that's always just over the next hill. When I first realized that, i found it rather amusing. But now I just find it rather sad to see.

He has never really worked at anything for very long because there is always a bigger, better opportunity right over there instead. And he has managed to get started on some things that could possibly have developed into something eventually, but due to his short attention span they never get

Re:

[evilRhino]

Of course, you'll probably have to take a loan to do this, so a good chunk of the first several years of your increased income is actually going to interest payments. Then you have to actually find the job you want afterwards, and hope they won't lay you off if they happen to lose that big contract. Great plan!

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[SQLGuru]

Is it just me that finds this situation funny (generalizations, so if it isn't you, feel free to ignore)?

Slashdot readers want to get rich.
Slashdot readers have something to do with computers/software.
Slashdot readers want the world to be taken over by Free (as in beer) and Open Source Software.
Not very many people have been able to make money at FOSS (the whole free thing gets in the way of profits).

I want to write some ECSS application (Expensive Closed Source Software), sell the rights to some big compan

Security or Human?

[Nettogrof]

Maybe the washington post should rename his blog to: Human Fix blog

EBay is not a court of law

[thehickcoder]

EBay investigated, concluding that Monroe's phantom employer had tied her PayPal account to a fraudulent auction. The auction site's verdict: She was responsible for repaying the full amount to the blameless auction winner. Monroe is now working two part-time jobs to pay the bills and to make the other victim whole.

Since when does EBay get to decide who is responsible for fraud?

Re:EBay is not a court of law

[BlueNoteMKVI]

....since you agreed to their Terms of Service.

I'm too lazy to look up a citation at 7:30 in the morning, but the last time I looked over the PayPal TOS it pretty much said "we reserve the right to take money out of your account whenever we want to, and your only recourse is to ask us nicely to have it back. Say 'please' and we might consider it."

Don't ever leave more money in your PayPal account than you can afford to lose.

For what it's worth, I think a court of law would have agreed in this case that the woman was responsible. It's impossible to really say without details of the eBay auction in question, but she took the customer's money. What she did with it after that is not the customer's problem. If she took his money in exchange for a service/product that she could not provide, she owes the customer his money back.

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[BlueNoteMKVI]

I know, replying to my own post is bad form - but I failed to mention that eBay now owns PayPal, so they are effectively one and the same.

Re:

[dave420]

Since eBay bought PayPal?

Re:Paypal is not a court of law

[91degrees]

But that doesn't answer anything. It just redirects the question.

Since when does Paypal get to decide who is responsible for fraud?

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[dave420]

Does it say that a particular jurisdiction has found them guilty of fraud? Nope. Fraud can be decided by anyone - you're confusing that with a court of law charging someone with fraud. As everyone using PayPal's service are bound by their Ts&Cs, they have every right to call fraud on anything on their network should they want to.

Re:EBay is not a court of law

[torkus]

They don't. But, as someone else mentioned the paypal TOS say they can basically take whatever money out of your PP account at will to cover whatever, whenever, at their discretion with no limits and your only recourse is binding arbitration. PP sucks. I hate them. They act like a bank with no limits, no rules, no recourse.

That said, the solution to dealing with PP is simple. Never *ever* leave money in your PP account. Either don't link it to a bank account or use one with little to no money in it. Preferably link to your credit card - one with very friendly rules about reversing charges. PP will wipe out your account and push you negative ... but they're not going to get any money from your credit card. 'Blanket authorizations' are specifically prohibited by Visa/MC. You can not agree via PP TOS to allow them to hold your credit card as arbitrary security.

I'm not advocating knowingly using the mule scams to actually make money - that's fraud and illegal.

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[nexuspal]

Yikes, normally I would think if they took money out of your account it would be considered an unauthorized ACH transaction and be summarily reversed. Based on their TOS however, they may be able to convince the bank that the $2,000 they took (hypothetical) was indeed "authorized".

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[torkus]

Which is why I don't give PP my bank account info. They can have every credit card number of mine (which is more than a few) but the ACH has significantly different rules that do more to protect the bank than the consumer - especially compared to credit cards. It's actually surprizing how much power a consumer has when using his/her CC. Most people have no idea. FWIW i don't know the details of the ACH rules, just inferring them from use/interaction and an ex GF that was in banking.

Did you know that a m

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[darkfire5252]

Since when does EBay get to decide who is responsible for fraud?

It's the latest trend in corporate liability. All they do is assure the consumer that they get to decide, and tell them that it would be upheld in a court of law and that the agreement is legally binding. Clueless consumer believes all the legalese being thrown at them, and the issue never goes to an actual courtroom. An actual judge would rule anything from Monroe is liable (for doing the actual act) to Paypal/Ebay is liable (because both the auction and the PayPal accounts are under their control and

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[91degrees]

It is slightly different. There's a legal basis for Paypal insisting that it's legally binding. You agreed to their contract. It's possible that this would be considered an unfair contract term, but by no means guaranteed.

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[bcattwoo]

Since when does EBay get to decide who is responsible for fraud?

They can't in the legal sense, but they can tell Monroe that she needs to pay back the money or they will take her to court to collect. For all we know Monroe sought legal advice and was told she would be found liable to repay the money.

Best fake check ever!

[clonan]

Last year I had someone send me a Money Gram money order to cash for something I was selling on craigslist. I was kinda suspicious when he asked to cash a check for more than I was selling the item for....

Now I have sold stuff online for years and can usually spot a fake immediatly...This one I had to take to a bank to confirm!

Someone had stolen a roll of blank money gram money orders and entered a valid serial number and everything. The only thing wrong was the micker ink. The numbers at the bottom of that check were standard ink, not magnetic...

I still have that check on my fridge.

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[account_deleted]

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[morgan_greywolf]

I mean, aren't you just wasting your time with trying to accept other payment types? I've never heard of non-cash payments being anything except scams...

Well PayPal and similar services are a non-cash form of payment and, personally, I've found them to be fairly safe for the seller. I've heard all the same horror stories about PayPal and their policies for handling disputes, but I've never personally been burned by such policies.

Re:Best fake check ever!

[clonan]

Absolutly I accept other forms than cash. Craigslist is only really effective because it is all over the US for free...I have only done one local deal and it WAS cash. Requiering cash for non-local deals is a good way to not sell anything.

My Experience
I have found Paypal to be very good so long as you send to a confirmed address and get tracking. I have had several people try and argue it but once I send Paypal the tracking number the dispute goes away in my favor.

Personal checks are riskier but I still haven't had that much of a problem. I always deposit them first and only ship once it has cleared. In over 1,000 check/money order transactions I have only had one bad check. And the check was bad for lack of funds. The person paid me immediatly with a money order plus my bank fee.

Legit money orders are usually so easy to identify that I would ship "at risk" before depositing them. I have run across 4 people trying to pass off fake money orders and never lost anything to them.

The grandparent is note worthy only because it was actually convincing in all but one detail.

I have had well over 20,000 online transactions and by following the rules above I have had about 30 problems and never lost money on any of them.

The moral of the story is:

Online business is safe and effective for everyone involved so long as you don't do anything stupid like ship before confirming payment and always get tracking numbers.

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[morgan_greywolf]

The only thing wrong was the micker ink.

I think you mean MICR ink [wikipedia.org]. Magnetic Ink Character Recognition is sort of a precursor to OCR. Instead of using an optical scanner, the MICR numbers are printed in a special font with a magnetized ink or toner at the bottom of the check. The error rate is a LOT lower for MICR than OCR, which is why banks continue to use it.

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[clonan]

This is what I get for not looking up the proper spelling before I post....

For those who are interested MICR ink is raised, has very crisp edges and will not bleed through the paper.

If you have any concerns, look for those features. If all else fails, take it to a bank and ask them to run it through their MICR reader before depositing it.

Re:Best fake check ever!

[canUbeleiveIT]

If all else fails, take it to a bank and ask them to run it through their MICR reader before depositing it.

This is a good idea and will help catch most frauds, but many people have access to a MICR check encoder. I worked for a Fortune 100 retailer and they had one in every store, and they were hardly kept under lock and key. Also, if one were an enterprising criminal, one might just buy one [ebay.com].

Obviously, the ultimate (and very elegant) coup de grâce would be to buy it with a fraudulent check.

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[eudaemon]

Smart man to be suspicious. Not to be a pedantic jerkwad, but you mean "MICR" ink, sir.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MICR [wikipedia.org]

Just a friendly a note since we are all a bunch of nerds who like to take interesting tangents
and learn new things anyway.

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[account_deleted]

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[clonan]

Actually, the bank never asked for it and money gram told me I could keep it if I wanted after I offered to send it to them.

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[mspohr]

I had a piano advertised for sale on Craigslist. I received a 'certified' check from a UK postal service (I'm in California) for more than the amount I was asking along with instructions to 'just have FedEx pick up the piano for delivery' and please send them a check for the excess payment.

This gave me a good laugh on several levels. They must have been really desperate...

Re:

[ArsenneLupin]

I still have that check on my fridge.

How did you manage to keep it? Banks and/or police usually confiscate counterfeit currency when they come across it, in order to prevent you from passing it on the next victim (... and it is also valuable evidence against the original scammer...)

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[clonan]

Remember, a check/money order is not currency.

Banks are requiered to confiscate counterfeit currency and are the only non-federal government organizations that can hold counterfeit money without risking prosecution.

However a check is not subject to such restrictions. Once you try to deposite the check it becomes the property of the bank and they will deliver it to the FBI or whoever. But there is no crime in mearly HOLDING a bad check, only exercising it.

I never tried to cash the check (since I would have

Re:

[iminplaya]

...were standard ink, not magnetic...I still have that check on my fridge.

Now wait a second...If the ink's not magnetic, how does it...oh...ok...nevermind.

You got lucky

[Solandri]

The last person I heard of in the same situation as you was arrested, jailed, and spent $14,000 defending himself [sfgate.com]. If you're at all uncertain about the legitimacy of a check, make sure you explain it to the bank before you ask them to verify it or cash it.

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[clonan]

I did exactly that. I told them that I received a large check from someone I have not yet done business with and asked if they could confirm the check was legit first.

There is no criminal violation for HOLDING a bad check, only attempting to exercise it. So as long as you aren't trying to get money you are in no way violating any law.

Even holding bad currency is technically a federal offence unless you are a bank however the FBI doesn't prosecute you unless you have a lot on you etc.

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[clonan]

I noticed there has been no recent update. My bet is that he got all his money back from the people who actually screwed up...the police and DA. By every deffinition of the word he was assaulted and kidnapped.

He was handcuffed, told to shut up and refused his civil rights. The police violated him NOT BofA. BofA did everything right except for not speaking with him first.

I am not surprised at all that BofA didn't send him 14K

MICR

[kbahey]

It is not micker, but rather MICR (Magnetic Ink Character Recognition).

I worked with MICR equipment for several years, and it is a surprise that the ink is not magnetized. Several years ago, we found that laser ink will not be magnetized, and we did flagging of the cheque as a fraud suspect based on that fact (OCR will read a line, but MICR will not). Then recently we started seeing that laser ink is now magnetized and that method for fraud detection is no longer valid. I think inkjet was also magnetized.

Typo in TFA

[kryten_nl]

Monroe was the victim of a "money mule" scam, in which criminals make use of third parties (often unsuspecting victims like Monroe) to launder stolen funds.

That should of course be:
...(often absolute idiots who think that money grows on trees and don't know that when something seems to good to be true it usually is like Monroe)...

Easy mistake to make, it's in Word's auto-replace list.

Actually, money DOES grow on trees...

[Ungrounded Lightning]

... absolute idiots who think that money grows on trees and don't know that when something seems to good to be true it usually is ...

Actually, (US) money DOES grow on trees - under the bark - and on cotton plants. But it has to be processed through the US mint and the Federal Reserve system.

It's not backed with anything (except the willingness of the government to accept it as tax payments and the force of government to invoke against US-based creditors who refuse to take it at face value to pay off debts)

Re:

[Minwee]

... seems to good to be true ...

Easy mistake to make, it's in Word's auto-replace list.

What, using 'to' instead of 'too'? I thought even Word knew better than that.

A vital part of the economy!

[Guppy06]

Would Monster.com even still exist if it weren't for scams like these?

Re:

[nasor]

Would Monster.com even still exist if it weren't for scams like these?

This was moded funny, and it sort of is, but it's also insightful. I've never actually used monster, but I've had numerous people tell me that literally half of the replies from Monster postings are either outright fraud or scams that are only technically legal (ie, contacting someone randomly regarding a "job" that doesn't have anything to do with their field and trying to sell them a $200 for a "starter kit," before they can begin "working".)

Re:

[AuMatar]

I've used monster. I've possibly gotten 1 of those, but I've had dozen of contacts from it that were legit. Now most of those were headhunters and never amounted to anything, but a headhunter is at least looking to fill a programming job.

Re:

[bughunter]

While I too was shocked at the number of scam emails that my Monster resume elicited, it also elicited the phone call from the headhunter that landed me the new job from which I'm posting this message right now.

So now I'm e-malingering at a 20% higher wage. And in an R&D environment where it's (almost) encouraged!

Another "no news" article?

[Opportunist]

2006 called. They want their news back.

This sort of operation has been going on for at the very least 2 years now. It's hardly "news". But it's stunning that there are still people who fall for that. Let's see... easy money, little to no work involved, shoving money around...

Hello? Does anyone here NOT smell a scam? I still can't decide whether those people are just insanely stupid or whether they know very well what they're doing and just claim to be stupid in case they get busted (and they usually do get busted), as a get-out-of-jail card. After all, stupidity appearantly keeps you safe from prosecution.

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

"2006 called. They want their news back."

2001 called. It wants its tired, over-used meme back.

Re:

[torkus]

If it didn't work... ya know?

Just like the penny stock scam emails seem utterly stupid to me. But pump-and-dump makes money for those doing it so they continue.

Every time i sell something on criags list i get at least one or two emails offering a random amount MORE than my posting price. Most even offer to pay for the item to be picked up and shipped. They're all obvious scams but if some people didn't fall for them then the scammers wouldn't bother.

I just want to know who the idio^^^^Victims are.

Scammers Scammed

[HeavensFire]

I bet the scammers get 'scammed' themselves occasionally.

"Hmm... FORWARD the $2,601... ooorrr..."

Re:

[moderatorrater]

"Hmm... FORWARD the $2,601... ooorrr..."

Or be caught with $2,601 that was transferred from someone's bank account whose identity was stolen by someone in Nigeria? Decisions, decisions.

Other End of the Money Transfer

[Inexile2002]

I've lived in Madrid for four years and have heard this story from several different people including an ex girlfriend.

A tourist looking guy with an American accent will approach people on the street with a sob story about how was robbed or otherwise lost his trekking backpack and included in the loss was his passport and wallet. His mother is sending him a Western Union Money transfer, but he can't collect it without ID. He then asks if he can call the USA with your name and passport number, have the money wired to you (his mom is always "at the Western Union right now!"). You accept and collect the money transfer at zero cost to you - fees are paid on the other end, and then turn the cash over to this guy. I've heard the sum of 275 euros up to over 800. He even offers 50 euros to reluctant people.

My ex-girlfriend fell for it, and then by coincidence bumped into the same guy two years later, so he's being doing this for a while. I didn't know her the first time she fell for it, but the second time she bumped into the guy, we both assumed it was something to do with drugs but now I'm guessing it probably had something to do with Money Mules.

Interesting that they actually use intermediates on the other end at least some of the time.

Also, The Money Mules would be a great name for an 90's cover band.

Next time

[Chrisq]

Give him the number to the US embassy. If he has really been robbed and lost his passport they'll help him out.

Re:

[Vadim Makarov]

I'm not familiar with the way you live in Spain, but wouldn't be reporting this to the police be the right course of action?

Consider this: even if what he does is not on the surface illegal, getting reported to the police more than once by different people will surely draw their attention.

Re:

[Inexile2002]

Probably a good idea, but as I said, I heard the story from other people and never saw the guy myself. Hell, since I heard it from different people, it might not always be the same guy. You now officially know as much about it as I do, so if you want to go to the cops, be my guest. As for getting the ex-girlfriend to go - let's just say that she doesn't take my calls any more.

You're right though, if I ran into this guy, I might be tempted to call the cops. (Or rob him, what's he going to do about it?)

Re:

[Impotent_Emperor]

Something similar happens in the U.S., but they are usually panhandlers. Wiring money, while available, isn't a daily activity.

It's usually, "I need money to buy a bus ticket" or some such thing. Though, I have heard of some adopting Australian accents and claiming to need money to get to the Australian embassy.

I'm almost motivate enough to start a database of panhandlers. Their pictures can be taken using camera phones and their locations tracked. It'd be a good public service, until they sue me.

Money and goods mules

[Jason Levine]

In addition to money mules, there are also "goods" mules who help transfer fraudulently obtained goods overseas. The typical situation is: ID thief uses stolen card information to buy electronics from a "cardable" website (one which doesn't do a lot of checks on whether the person using the card is the real cardholder). The thief is based overseas, but knows that having goods shipped there might (at best) raise red flags and (at worst) lead the police right to them. So they convince some poor, greedy saps that they are helping out a small overseas company. The goods mules gets paid small sums to receive goods and then reship them.

The particulars might differ based on situation, of course. I've heard of the scammers using images taken from Google Images to convince the mules that they (the scammers) are really a highly attractive woman who just so happened to have fallen in love with them and needs their help with her struggling business. Yes, people fall for this. Partly because the scammers are good at what they do and partly because some people are just greedy idiots. They mentally block out any red flags because of the promise of money.

On one hand, the mules are really sad and pathetic. On the other hand, they get me mad because without them much of the identity theft/eBay fraud/stolen credit card purchases, wouldn't be possible (or at least would be much easier to track).

Paypal and eBay complicit

[EmagGeek]

What is really appalling to me is how Paypal and eBay are seemingly exempt from the rule of law.

If someone breaks into my house, steals my stuff, and puts it in their house, I am not allowed to just go into the thief's house and steal it back. I am required to give them the due process of law, file criminal charges, provide evidence to the prosecution, and let the jury decide.

If criminal A breaks into the house of victim B, stashes the stuff in victim C's house before moving it to their own house, victim C's landlord can't just decree that victim C has to pay back victim B for the loss.

This is exactly what paypal is doing.

Re:

[BlueNoteMKVI]

If the criminals were breaking into people's paypal accounts, your analogy might hold water. I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but that's not what this story is about.

It's more like a drop-shipping scenario.

Imagine you buy an iPod on eBay. The seller doesn't actually have an iPod, but he has an agreement with the dropshipping house. You pay the seller, the seller pays the shipper, the shipper ships your iPod...but this time the shipper skips town. Who are you going to call when the iPod doesn't arrive

Not really the same...

[sirwired]

If someone breaks into my house, steals my stuff, and puts it in their house, I am not allowed to just go into the thief's house and steal it back. I am required to give them the due process of law, file criminal charges, provide evidence to the prosecution, and let the jury decide.

Ah, but if the money is deposited into a bank, the laws governing ECH transactions (Electronic Clearing House) absolutely state that fraudulent transactions can be reversed. PayPal is sort of Bank-like, so I imagine that their t

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[guruevi]

Ebay doesn't have any legal recourse if you refuse this. Paypal is not a bank, they're a corporate (private) entity that handles money much like a 'bank' in SecondLife or WoW (I don't play any of these games so I don't know if there are banks in WoW). If you get suckered into providing your bank information for them so they can withdraw anything from your bank account, then that's on you. I just entrust them with their standard $300 limit and a credit card number which flags my expenses over $100.

My example

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[torkus]

Analogies...are painful and overused (and yes i'm using one below). I question the accuracy of the one used but the underlying point is dead on.

If *I* break into someone's house, steal their jewlry and rape their cat I'm still afforded due process and the ability to plead my case before a judge. Paypal/ebay OTOH are the arbitrary investigators, judge, jury, and prison warden. You're then left chasing them down begging and pleading to overturn your sentence if you feel that it's wrong or unfair.

To make it

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[Lehk228]

it's not legal, no judge in the land would uphold those terms, ESPECIALLY not on a consumer service which completely lacked any actual signing or contract negotiation.

if ANY company tries that shit with you the best course of action is to politely or impolitely as you wish, instruct them to choke on a bag of dicks.

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[torkus]

HAHA i agree. In fact i almost filed a suit in local (NY) small claims court against PP recently. Luckily i badgered them enough to get a "courtest refund" of the ~$200 they took away from me.

I'd love to see how they'd attempt to collect that penalty charge? Debit my PP account? ROFL

REAL COMPANIES

[zoomshorts]

Already have their own banks and accounts. Enough said.

Why on earth would anyone fall for this drivel?

Desperation, sure, but more likely stupidity based
on ignorance.

Real Money Mules

[flyneye]

If those stupid scammers only realized how much an actual REAL money mule makes,they would shut off their computers and buy plane tickets.
I personally knew a money mule who moved money around Asia,several Pacific islands and a bit in South America.Some of her clients included Rulers and a well known ex-dictators surviving family.Her career lasted 5 years and she amassed million$ for herself. Retired,bought an ashram,all before she hit her mid thirties.

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[MrNiceguy_KS]

Wow! I just got an email from the family of a murdered African dictator wanting help to transfer some money. I thought it was a scam until I saw your message. I'm gonna be rich!

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[flyneye]

I suppose you didn't get that this was an actual courier not an online thing.
It is an actual profession.For the rich there are many reasons to move money from island to island,bank to bank,country to country.Not all the reasons are moral or honest.Covering up embezzlement from the countries funds is one,protecting personal riches(including jewelry,stock certificates,etc.)from a revolutionary minded citizenry is another.Just plain findin' the best interest rates or keepin' em guessing where you keep it is an

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[mdmkolbe]

I don't know about the French revolution, but the Spanish Prisoner [wikipedia.org] scam is basically a version of the 419 scam that is at least a century old.

Why can't you just rip them off?

[swb]

I seem to remember reading about a similar scam where items are bought with stolen credit, shipped to a "mule" who then repackages them and sends them off, generally outside the U.S. These mules have no physical contact with their handlers.

I always wondered why these mules didn't either selectively ship stuff off (hey, international shipping is dodgy..) or just wait until there was enough "good" stuff on hand that they wanted and then sever ties. The same thing holds true with cash transfers -- just wait

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[bcattwoo]

I think the cash transfer scams tend to offer pretty hefty commissions in the 10% range. That is a nice cut for so little effort and most people would be wary of giving that up on an ongoing basis for a one-time score. Plus for those that even question the legality of what they are doing, it crosses the line into definite criminal behavior and if you got caught it would be much harder to claim to be an innocent co-victim of the scam. Knowing how these scams work, you would be just as big of a slimeball for

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[Lehk228]

would you like to roll your [fake identity] skill against the russian mob's [hunt you down and kill you] skill. since you had to give them an address close enough to get the money all your rolls are at +1 and all their rolls are at -1.

Recruit mail sample?

[ledvinap]

This is probably recruit mail for this kind of think? (doesn't seem like usual phishing to me...)
And ... loking on the text, the whitespace seems a little bit too misplaced ... so some hidden ID? (hope it's not my mail in plain ;-) )

Good Day,

Would you love to work online and earn good money without affecting your present job if you have one?,our company Lacrosse Furnishers here in USA is in need of a cashing officer in the European union .A reliable person who can receive payment on our behalf from our cus

Common Sense?

[jantman]

Yes, I feel sorry for the people caught in the middle of this - and especially for the EBay buyers who don't know how to check out a potential seller, and get pinched. I was screwed over on ebay once, though from a seller with relatively high feedback who seemed to turn bad (though I did end up getting my item, with assistance from some friends in the local police detective bureau ;) ).

But realistically... if people are so stupid to fall for this, don't they deserve it? I don't see it as being any different

Greed drives cons

[pyrr]

I don't feel all that sorry for the people who fall for these scams. The cons are preying on their greed, and all it takes is a little common sense to realize if you have no special qualifications, nobody is just going to email you out of the blue and hand you huge bundles of cash to basically do trivial tasks. The only qualifications for most of these tasks are:

• Live in the USA
• Have a bank or Paypal account
• Be greedy and gullible
• Have a pulse

These scams work because the first can be tailored to match

Isn't Bob Williamson wasting his time?

[mbstone]

If somebody is brain-dead enough not to recognize a scam when they see one, is such a person really going to go to Bob Williamson's site to see if the situation is listed there? Conversely, if someone is not brain-dead, do they really need a list of money-mule scams? Aren't they easily recognizable??