Vista Startup Sound to be Mandatory?

Toreo asesino writes "There has been lots of debate in the past few days over Microsoft's plan to make the startup sound in Windows Vista something that can't be specifically silenced by changing the sound settings in the control panel. Users would be able to avoid hearing it by manually turning down the speaker volume, but then they would have to turn that volume back up to hear anything else."

that's only the half of it

wait until everyone learns that the new start up sound is the microsoft eula, read out loud, in nonrepeating segments

Re:that's only the half of it

10,000 quatloos to the writer of the first virus that replaces the sound with a clip of a pig squealing.

Re:that's only the half of it

Followed by the sound of windows breaking.

Re:that's only the half of it

It'll be:

"Hello, This is Bill Gates and I pronounce Windows as Windows."

Re:that's only the half of it

How about:

"Hello, This is Bill Gates, and I pronounce Windows as..." followed by sounds of Bill Gates rolling around in a giant pile of cash.

or, for anyone who's played Paranoia

"Trust the Computer. The Computer is your Friend. Not trusting the Computer is Treason..."

Re:that's only the half of it

Actually, the Vista startup sound will sound like this [youtube.com].

Nice sig, but when I type it I get

!!! all ebuilds that could satisfy "girlfriend" have been masked.
!!! possible candidates are:
- jen/girlfriend-1.1.3-r5 (masked by: ~taken)
- mary/girlfriend-1.1.3-r5 (masked by: ~uninterested)
- karen/girlfriend-1.1.3-r5 (masked by: ~uninterested)
!!! Error calculating dependencies. Please correct.

Re:"Your copy of Windows is genuine/pirate"

I'm holding out for: "Your copy of Windows is genuine/pirate" ...with the volume set to XXX-loud if it's pirate.

The "Your copy of Windows is pirate" would just make people laugh and brag about it. What they really need is a "Hello. I'm watching GAY PORN! MEN HAVING SEX WITH MEN! IN THE BUTT!" sound played extremely loud. They could blackmail people into actually buying legit copies, especially if they syngergized by incorporating text-to-speech technology with the search history saving functionality of Internet Explorer 7 and Windows Genuine Advantage Automatic Updater and used the startup sounds to effectively communicate interesting search histories to anyone in the room. "Hello. I'm a pirated copy of Windows Vista. I was used to search WebMD for 'penile discharge' last night. Please contact Microsoft Legal Department in order to have your startup sound changed."

Hmm, I'm tempted to write a little proof of concept program for my own pirated copy just to see how it works... The hard part would be getting it to find the juicy stuff on its own.

Re:that's only the half of it

I believe that due to backward compatibility, the first sound you hear is, in fact, the sound of Windows breaking.

Re:that's only the half of it

> Bonus if you can throw in Ballmer giving the order to "squeal like a piggie".

Yew got a purdy mouth. Who said siddown? Ahm'a make yew squeal like the wheels on mah chair... Ah! Luv! Dis! Cumpany!

Re:that's only the half of it

Inciting a riot is a serious criminal offense, I doubt they'd go that far.

Re:that's only the half of it

The last thing MS (or anyother proprietary software company) want is for anyone to read (or hear) the EULA.

If people knew what was in them they might object.

Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for MS

This is a typical case of product-focused vs. user-focused thinking.

Has it occured to anyone that a user might just wake up early morning and wants to turn on his/her computer without waking up sleeping family members?

For this very reason one of the first setup steps I always do on a new machine is to turn off the startup sign.

Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for

Has it occured to anyone that a user might just wake up early morning and wants to turn on his/her computer without waking up sleeping family members?

Just today I walked into the "Maximum Quiet Study Area" for our univerisity's library, and popped open my laptop and turned it on. My gkrellm instance sounded my "alert" sound (which is actually very rare, the load was too high from the boot apparently), and I rushed to hit the mute button.

The startup sound on Vista would be before any multimedia keys are registered if it's at all like XP is, and that wouldn't have worked. Laptop speakers don't have volume control!

If Vista does require this, and I hear someone turn on their laptop with "welcome to Windows Vista!", I'm going to throw their laptop out a window, no pun intended.

Skip the window...

I'm going to throw their laptop out a window, no pun intended.

I prefer walls. They are almost always more gratifying plus you don't have to deny your use of a bad pun.

Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for

If Vista does require this, and I hear someone turn on their laptop with "welcome to Windows Vista!", I'm going to throw their laptop out a window, no pun intended.

Most Airlines frown upon things being thrown out the window in mid flight....

Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for

Fun prank: change your air-traveler friend's Windows starup sound

Laptop:"This laptop will expode in 10, 9, 8 ..."

Federal Air Marshall:"Sir! Turn that off NOW or I WILL SHOOT!"

Hapless Prankee:"Uh, I can't! It's Windows!"

Hee hee!

Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for

Here's a no shitter.
TIME: Post-9/11.

Location: Major Metropolitan airport

Me: I just purchased a new LT that was about 3 days new to me. Being on the road I didn't have much time to 'play' with it. I arrive at the airport, get my tickets and proceed to my terminal. I'm early. I decide to sit and have a look-see at what was preinstalled on my LT. I sit next to the check-in counter. I open windows explorer. yadda yadda yadda, I open the windows folder and find an executable named 'clock.avi.' I double-click it.

The face of a clock take up most of the screen. It begins to Beep. LOUDLY. The clock is counting down. From 10.

Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for

If Vista does require this, and I hear someone turn on their laptop with "welcome to Windows Vista!", I'm going to throw their laptop out a window, no pun intended.

Good plan. There are very few computer problems that can't be solved by a little constructive defenestration.

Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for

Yes, and remember that the best way to accelerate your Vista-based system is 9.8 m/s^2!

Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for

About the only laptop manufacturer left that still includes an actual potentiometer volume control is Toshiba, AFAIK, for all their models. All the others are using software for volumes, dedicated volume key or not.

I have no idea why no other brands do this, but having an actual volume control is extremely useful. I hardly ever touch windows' horrible software volume control and just leave it at maximum.

Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for

I'm pretty sure that my Thinkpad T42 volume keys work before the OS loads... It's probably not completely hardware, but at least it works without having any drivers installed in Windows.

Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for

thats not even the point. On my brand new Dell latitude D620, the XP start up sound plays before my mute button is registered. Trust me i've tried, when ive been in places that require silence and i find myself having to muffle my speakers physically.

Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for

Not just the startup sound, but all of the sounds, like I want to hear if I click my mouse, my mouse can make that sound on its own, and I don't need a sound every time one of those alert buttons pop up, they are on top anyway so I'll see them, right?

But then again, with OSX it isn't possible to disable the startup sound either (or so I've heard) so if people would make a fuss about this, then why not continue at apple?

Intel may have fixed that

***My Mac has gone months without reboots and might add that it is operational within 2 seconds of opening the lid.***

A computer feature that actually works? All the time?

Oh, well, there's a pretty good chance that Apple's switching to Intel CPUs and the associated hardware architecture will fix that and you'll get to enjoy the pleasure of full reboots a lot more often just as we fortunate PC owners do

Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for

But Apple can do no wrong here on /., so the point is moot.

There. I fixed it for you.

Look, this is either an idiotic thing that should be an option controllable by the user or it's not, and whichever it is, it is regardless of how many times somebody might reboot their computer.

It never ceases to amaze me how many excuses people here can come up with for why their double standards aren't double standards. I expect no less than 5-6 more in reply to this post.

Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for

Well, not to rain on your parade, BUT:

I worked for a non-profit when Windows 2003 was released to manufacturing. They were donated two new dell servers and two boxed copies of Win2k3 Standard edition for the purpose of running two databases that previously were hosted on one box that was seriously overloaded. Decent servers on the high end at the time - hot swap power, hot swap drives, dual proc, etc. These boxes are Internet facing (not for database access, that requires an IPSEC connection at the firewall level) and hosted at a big name co-lo facility. The database is Oracle 9i.

I remember well the day that I hardened them and finished the deployment. It was May 1st, 2003, a Thursday I believe. Win2k3 had just become available the previous week. Oracle had released a big set of patches for 9i not long before.

I still check in on those boxes. One has 994 days of uptime, and the other has, as of last week, 1190 days. The longer running of the two - DAEDALUS - runs close to 75% load from 6am-6pm, 5 days a week.

The only other box I have running that beats that is a Netware 4.x box. But that barely counts as a usuable OS :)

Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for

I still check in on those boxes. One has 994 days of uptime, and the other has, as of last week, 1190 days.

I know you said you worked, past tense, for the company that owns those servers. But you must realize that however spiffy those uptime stats may be, they also mean that critical updates and service packs have not been installed. Most of the security-related patches require a reboot, and 2003 Service Pack 1 certainly does.

Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for

You don't even have to mute it before you shut down. You can shut the laptop down with the sound on. When you press the power on button, start holding down the Audio Off/Mute button on the keyboard. Hold it until you see the Apple. Bingo. No startup chime, and sound is still enabled (or disabled, whatever it was before) once you get to the desktop.

Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for

There is this StartupSound Preferences Panel [biglobe.ne.jp] that allows for more control over the startup sound...

Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for

For this very reason one of the first setup steps I always do on a new machine is to turn off the startup sign.

I do it because having some corny sound play every time I reboot is just too much to bear.

What really bugs me is that Scoble says he can "see both sides" of the issue. What kind of workplace culture does Microsoft have, where they'd even consider imposing such an obnoxious feature?

This isn't going to happen, of course. The "you have got to be kidding" emails must be already pouring in. But the fact that this is an issue says nasty things about the Redmond mentality.

Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for

What really bugs me is that Scoble says he can "see both sides" of the issue. What kind of workplace culture does Microsoft have, where they'd even consider imposing such an obnoxious feature?

I'll guarantee they've contracted work to some "user experience" guru who says some crap about how sound is a more primal sense than sight, and that to properly brand Windows you have to associate it with a sound, and that this sound must always be associated with Windows.

Of course, what they haven't thought of is that you don't want to associate your OS with a reboot these days. So this might backfire on them.

Their operating system, their choice.

Seems the least of our worries, we'll just await the first hack that makes sure the sample doesnt play.

How to turn it off..

Delete or Rename the file? or has that functionality not made it into the filesystem yet?

Re:How to turn it off..

File?

No, I imagine it'll involve subtly hacking a grafted-on Windows 2000 version of NTOSKRNL.DLL while fending off the frothing-at-the-mouth system-file protection and changing HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\SystemEnhanc ementLayer\{0092-02D1-26E5-0990}\Security\Initiali zationProtocolIsTrue to 210 (decimal), then making sure never to install any patches.

Re:How to turn it off..

Well, they would have modded it "+1 Painfully True" if they could have...

Re:How to turn it off..

Yeah, there's this nasty BITCH of a mechanism called Windows File Protection - where many of the common system files have backup copies in a hidden subdirectory called dllcache. If you delete the system copy, the os "detects" it (via a filter-driver), and copies the backup from dllcache.

In some cases, the fix is to simply delete the dllcache version - if what you're trying to do is delete the file. But there's also an added level of hackery for a subset of these protected files, because they're also redundantly backed up in a .CAB file in dllcache - and that .CAB file has a manifest that has checksums and digital signatures socked away in a jet database or registry hive somewhere - theoretically, one could ONLY update one of these files via the Microsoft Installer Service API.

So for files that are protected with this extra level, no, it's not really possible to change them via hex editor. I know that there used to be hacks in 2000 to disable WFP. I also know that in 2002, Microsoft did not have the expertise, in house, to answer a developer support question on WFP behavior (for a developer of BACKUP software - ie. "what happens if I restore the system to a previous version via backup software? - answer: nasty stuff. Which is why imaging software became a very popular way of backup and restore windows desktops).

No - I know that guys like Marc Russinovich probably have a much better understanding of how WFP works. But this is my understanding after having to deal with it. Frankly, in the past few years, when I've had to remove spyware and malware from systems, there's an eerie resemblance in self-protection techniques between WFP and malware.

Re:How to turn it off..

It's not hard...
Step 1: cacls {TheFile} /g Administrator:F
Winlogon doesn't run as Administrator and so won't be able to load the file. WFP doesn't run as Administrator and so won't be able to replace the file.

Copying the Mac again...

The Mac startup sound has always been mandatory. Don't like it? Plug in your headphones for a second... The stuff that makes front page these days *sigh*

Re:Copying the Mac again...

If that's any indication of the design of the rest of the system, it sounds awfully braindead to me. Computers are supposed to work *for* you, not against you.

I see you are new to Microsoft products. Your sig seems to state otherwise, but since you still seem to believe that your computer should work for you, rather than for Microsoft, you obviously have yet to experience any Microsoft product in action.

I genuinely feel sorry for anyone who has to experience Windows for the first time, especially if they are used to any other OS...

Re:Copying the Mac again...

The Mac startup sound has always been mandatory.

Only if you haven't muted audio. If you mute the audio output and then reboot (or shutdown and then power on), you won't hear the power-on chime.

Re:Copying the Mac again...

Only if you haven't muted audio. If you mute the audio output and then reboot (or shutdown and then power on), you won't hear the power-on chime.

So it's similar to Vista then? You need to mute the computer in order to not hear the chine, and then un-mute it again?

I don't know about rest of you guys, but I find the Mac startup-chime _annoying_. And the user should be able to disable with zero hassle, and in such way that it does not affect rest of the system!

Re:Copying the Mac again...

It is NOT mandatory.

Turn down your sound (in the OS X volume control), or mute your speakers.

Restart.

Tada! No startup sound.

There are also applications and Applescripts that will do it automatically for you:
http://alphaomega.software.free.fr/startupchimesto pper/Startup%20Chime%20Stopper.html [software.free.fr]
http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20031 005165919533 [macosxhints.com]
http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/16780 [macupdate.com]

By the way, the Apple startup sound is more akin to the PC Bios Boot-Beep. It's a hardware test, and it will play a different sound if there is a video card failure or ram failure, something which prevents the system from reaching the GUI.

Re:Copying the Mac again...

What you've said, in essence, is "turning off sound turns off the sound". Of course it does. But that's not a solution in the slightest. There is absolutely no reason why we should not be able to disable a sound like that.

Although if it's the POST beep equivalent, that's another matter, I suppose...

Re:Copying the Mac again...

It's not manditory, and I believe it works the way most "non-geeks" would expect.

It follows the software volume setting from when you turned off your Mac.

You can also mute it by holding F3 while booting your Mac, which on any Apple keyboard has the "mute speaker" icon, which is also how you mute the speaker in software.

There are also many free utilities that can disable it for you.

I suppose using Google to search for "mac startup sound mute" and hitting I'm feeling lucky was too hard. The result is pretty clear....

http://homepage.mac.com/geerlingguy/mac_support/ma c_help/pages/0025-startup_sound.html [mac.com]

What in the world?

Do they seriously think annoying the users who care enough about their systems to turn off the Windows startup sound in the first place is really a good idea?

Broadcasters will object

They will have to come up with some kind of way to turn it off. The majority of broadcast automation applications still run on Windows. When I worked at KDKD, we had all the on-air PCs set to "No Sounds"... It's always funny to hear a Windows sound on the radio.

Re:Broadcasters will object

Broadcast automation software -the thing radio stations use to play commercials, news clips, pre-recorded programs, etc- uses the audio line-out to feed the sound to the transmitter.

The sound can't be disabled because that's the whole point of having the automation software in the first place.

Any bleeps or bloops or Windows logo noises will get picked up and passed along with the program material and broadcast to the five people still listening to broadcast radio. Who the hell wants to hear Windows sound effects on their radio? All that stuff has to be turned off or killed or deleted or something, leaving a pure program audio feed on the line-out.

The same goes for offline audio workstations, such as one I have in my home. The boot noise is not so much an issue for me, but I can't have sound effect-equipped dialog boxes ruining my work. Right now, this is easy to deal with in XP.

If Vista makes this impossible, then they've just closed the upgrade door on themselves. What I do now in XP, I can also do in linux and I will make that move if I have to do that to get the recordings I need. Honestly, XP Pro works so well for me right now, I can't see any reason to move to Vista.

Bottom line

Here's the bottom line: If you have to ask the question, "Should the user be able to change this?" then the answer is: YES.

Re:Bottom line

Here's the bottom line: If you have to ask the question, "Should the user be able to change this?" then the answer is: YES.

Actually, from a software design point of view, that's not necessarily the correct answer. If you make everything configurable that every user would possibly want to change, then you're looking at a UI that's going to be almost impossible to navigate, at least when you're talking about an OS the size of Vista. That said, I think this is a case where it should be something the user can change.

Re:Bottom line

Mozilla Firefox is a counter-example to this argument. There are about a bazillion things you can change by entering "about:config" in the url bar. The vast majority can't be changed via the menus and thus don't clutter the UI. Yet they're readily available for anyone who does want to change them.

Just . . . don't . . . get . . . it

I try and try not to be ovelry criticize Microsoft, such as wasting shareholder dollars on Zune, but mandatory startup sounds for Vista? Talk about branding for the sheer point of making people associate your brand with irritation. Manually turning down the volume each time, say in a library or lab, is the work around? Huh?

  At least the article references Ze...

um, I dont think so

I really don't think this is gonna happen.. even if it does, it's a matter of hours before someone else hacks the startup processes to modify it. Besides, if the sound makes the sound of sucking $$$ out of my wallet, it might be perfect for Vista.

Perhaps...

It will be something along the lines of this? [youtube.com]

It's my computer, let me silence it

It's my freakin computer, you better let me silence it if I wish. Maybe I don't want to irritate people in a cafe, lobby, waiting room, whatever with noises coming from my laptop. Maybe I just don't want an "I'm ready to be used" noise. Maybe I don't care if you think it's convenient. Maybe I dont care if you think it's cool or pretty sounding. Maybe I just want the stupid thing to be quiet.

And Xbox or Playstation are not good excuses, those are for a different market. There's also a number of people out there using mod chips to regain control of those things if they don't like some decisions from the manufacturer. Just because my Xbox makes a startup noise doesn't mean that I want it to. And just because some Engineer at Microsoft or Sony decided their toy for kids should make a startup noise does not mean I want to hear it on my laptop, tower, or anything at the office in the morning.

Vista startup sound clip ought to be...

"This computer will self destruct in 5 seconds."

I still hold out hope...

QUESTION: Why don't you give advanced users the ability to turn this off via a registry setting or something like that?
Steve: "we're considering just that."

Yes Steve a registry setting please...
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\WinLogon\ShutTheFuckUp
make sure that dword is set to 1

Don't do this

This shows how disconnected from the real world Microsofties have become.

Imagine being in a large university class with 100 or 200 students and half of them boot their laptops at the beginning of the class. The sound will be played 50-100 times, how much more annoying can it get!

Let me guess...

The startup sound will be the voice of Steve Ballmer saying "Please bend over, this won't take long".

Horrible idea

Wonderful. This will be a real plus in seminars, as people can't turn on their damn laptops without making a stupid noise. Or on an airplane. Or any other situation (with the kid sleeping in the other side of the room, for example).

Stupid, stupid, stupid. Unbelievably dumb. A massive triumph of marketing people over reality. How can this can be presented as a 'I see both sides of this fascinating argument' in the article? The argument that lots of other systems do this too is irrelevant; currently, you don't have to do this in Windows - why start making this mistake now?

Uh, Macs?

Is the startup sound on Macs customizable? I don't think it is. You turn on your computer and...

"BAHHHH."

Re:Uh, Macs?

You can always just hold down the mute button during boot and it won't make the noise (at least I think, it's been awhile since I last restarted). You then let go of the mute button and it will return you to your pre-determined volume level while it's finishing booting.

Mac Startup sound is hardly heard

1st reason, if you mute the sound, the startup chime is also muted.

2nd reason, sleep actually works very well on Mac models, and most Mac laptop users don't shut their machines down often. This of course is not true of 100% of the population, but it is true of a very large portion. As one example the Macbook has a bug where if you shut it down and close the lid, it crashes and doesn't shut down. While this is a known issue, very few Macbook users report it or complain about it.

I have only shut down my Macbook once, and that was to upgrade the RAM, since then it has been sleep only when it was not in use.

Re:Uh, Macs?

Actually the startup chime obeys the system volume. If you need to have a "quiet" start and your volume wasn't shut off on shutdown, you can hold down the "mute" button as you boot and that will squelch the chime. If you are into esoteric settings or you have a special need to kill just the startup chime, install this third party utility [biglobe.ne.jp], which allows you to set the startup chime volume directly.

What you don't know...

The startup sound has obviously become the ca-ching of a cash register.

It'd be pure microsoft...

In other news...

...sources close to those in charge of Vista's user interface development say the startup sound will be that of '...[M]illions of computer users crying out, and suddenly silenced...'

This article has to be a joke

It just HAS to be a joke. They can't really be considering annoying their users in this way, right?

I suppose the system will REQUIRE the sound file, and it must be a signed/DRMed WMA10 file too, right? And ONLY Microsoft-signed sounds (e.g., Vista Plus! pack or whatever comes out alongside the OS next year) will be "allowed" to replace the default sound?

Meh. I won't be affected. When I have to run Windows (for legacy hardware not supported by Linux) it's Win98SE or Win2K, and I can customize SuSE and kubuntu linux to my heart's content. Fuck Windows Vista and the DRM fest and locked-down GUI that will come with it. Monad, you say? I already have that; it's called bash.

reason 78 I won't be using Vista

Reason #1. It's from Microsoft
Reason #2. It's been delayed 5 times and still won't die
Reason #3: Fundamentally no better than XP
Reason #4: Still no shell
Reason #5: Or compiler
Reason #6: Takes more space then it really ought to
Reason #7: New added value bonus DRM compliance goodies!

...

Reason #76: It takes more memory than a weather simulation of Earth just to show the desktop
Reason #77: "Ultimate Edition"
Reason #78: Annoying Startup Sounds

Tom

The reasoning behind this is pathetic.

OMG..they have a branded starup sound! Can we have a startup sound too! Please!

"A spiritual side of the branding experience. A short, brief, positive confirmation that your machine is now concious and ready to react."

Spiritual side? WTF does that mean? Do we get Kool-aid if we format the drive?

"The startup sound is designed to help you calibrate or fix something that got out of wack when you startup your machine. Let's say you muted your machine, and you don't hear your startup sound, you know you aren't ready to listen to stuff."

Maybe the power LED being off, the dial at 0 or the red 'no' symbol on the speaker icon might give it away after you hear absoulutely nothing coming from the speakers?

Of course there are the foot pedal mouse and coffee holder ROM drive crowd to think about. Maybe they can get an offical Vista helemt with a send in postcard.

"The Xbox has a hard-wired startup sound. "

Which makes sense. Your siting down to game and the sound system has a mojor role in that experience. It also happens as soon as the machine starts. You know exactly when it's going to happen. It's basically a "hey..it's this loud right now..get your volume set..we're getting ready to game". Not blast you out if you forget where your settings were the previous time and you walked away during boot up.

People get paid to "think" this crap up. It's amazing.

Not thinking of mobile users

The problem with this is that it means that mobile users will be less likely to restart their computers - or power them up, for that matter - in meetings, etc., where you don't want to draw attention to yourself with an annoying startup sound. Now, I'm not sure if there's still an option for turning ALL windows alert sounds off, including the start up sound, which might mitigate this a bit. But on some computers, especially many laptops with softkeys for volume, you've got to ALREADY BE IN WINDOWS to turn the sound off. So say you were using your computer with sound on, say, gaming, turn it off, and boot up 2 hours later in a meeting - you'd have NO CHANCE of disabling a loud and annoying sound that draws the kind of attention to yourself that you REALLY don't want drawn to you.

It all just begs the question "why?" was the code that they have to turn off the start up sound now SO BADLY WRITTEN that they decided not to migrate it? C'mon guys. And also:

They've been working on this project as the "#1" priority in their group (past updates, etc.) for over half a decade now. I'd REALLY like to think that they'd have most of this kind of stuff decided already. Did somebody buy everyone in the Windows dev team an Xbox and then an XBox 360? Is that why its taken them 60 months to put together about as much of a feature upgrade as the OS X dev team usually puts together every 18 months? What have they been waiting for? Are they tailor-making Vista technologies to run Duke Nukem Forever? Is that the reason for the delay? Because I really can't find much of a better rationale anywhere else... other than maybe they've cut so many features of Vista in the past few years that no one left working on the project has any idea what code they're actually supposed to be writing.

Oy.

Tim

Huh?

You mean everyone doesn't delete all the M$ noise files at the first boot? Find a winbox that I haven't deleted the media files from, I looked and there aren't any here.

What is Windows turning to and why?

Here are three major OS on the market:

OSX: built around experience, this OS is made to be simple to use, easy to market, look shiny and tie well with its accompanied Apple hardware. Apple's credo is that they are amazing as hell, and their users will be wowed at whatever they throw at them. As such, OSX provides features such as mandatory startup sounds, mandatory "hardware", mandatory skin and other mandatory "tuned to be kewl" stuff. They have some success, but their market share is still decreasing (currently at meager 2%) because they don't realize that unlike iPod, a PC is (yet) not just another consumer device.

Unix / BSD / Linux: it's made for professionals, for tinkerers and and people who like control over their machines. Those OS have their share of attempts at eye candy, but the main point of the OS is the ability to go down to the bone and tune it just like you like it, without excess fat and trash around. It doesn't have much adoption with casual folks as a desktop OS because the distros are rarely consistent, require low level knowledge of the underlying system to get the maximum out of it and hardware software doesn't target it a lot.

Windows: is sitting in the perfect spot. It's easy to use, has a lot of software written for it, works on commodity hardware, and is practical for business, entertainment and more. It's not perfect, and in fact was quite flaky when the consumer branch was based around the 9x core (for legacy reasons). These guys however get a lot of criticism that they are not enough like Apple and not enough like Unix. Windows has no cult status among its users, while *nix and Apple does.

I have no idea whether it's a complex or lack of confidence in their own strategy, but sometime around XP, Microsoft decided they wanna be more like OSX and Unix, which are dwarfed by Windows on the market of desktop OS. They are just doing it, for no apparent reason, they are not losing market to their competitors on the desktop market, but feel the urge to copy them and be "more like them".

XP and Vista are trying hard to build a branded experience much like OSX, while other projects like Channel 9, the new power shell, and tons of other admin-related utilities and technologies are targeted to the Unix crowd and appearing more opened.

Some of this has positive effects on the users of Windows, but some of it, is just plain stupid (like the glassy look of aero.. it's not easier to use at all, it's one of those gadgets you show off in the PC shops, like OSX's scaling icons on the dock bar). Their desire to preserve their "perfect" branding by locking and hardcoding everything in place is just a symptom of this much deeper problem.

I wish Microsoft would just accept its position in the market, keep the right balance between flexible and preconfigured, and swallow the criticisms, which will come no matter what, versus try and copy whatever fads come along.

Re:What is Windows turning to and why?

Two things I'd like to note:

OS X's market share is not decreasing, and the number of users is increasing a lot.

OS X does have things like the fancy dock animations, but unlike similar things in Windows, they don't get in your way, and they are actually nice.

Windows isn't more flexible than OS X in most ways. Yes, it has built in theme support. Essentially, I can change Windows XP from horrid, gaudy, bright purple and green to icky silver and green. Woohoo. None of that makes the interface any better, functionally.

OS X's interface isn't just better because you can look at it without going blind, it is far more intuitive and easy to use. And it includes support for the Klingon Language.

pirated version?

The hacked pirated version is looking more appealing the more I read about vista

Bummer...

Since my first Windows box (WfW 3.11, 1993), I've used an awful lot of different startup sounds, from the sound of breaking glass to the Mac Quadra-era System 7 "CHUNG!", to funny outtakes from voiceover sessions I've engineered.

My current system at work, which I built around an MSI Athlon 64+ motherboard, is housed in a case that looks like a Soviet-era toaster: dull silver-grey plastic and louvers on the front that look like they belong on the hood of a tractor. I festooned the case with hammer-and-sickle symbols and the letters "CCCP" in red type bordered in yellow. That computer's name is "katyusha".

Its startup sound is the Red Army Chorus singing the Soviet National Anthem. Just one verse, though. It annoys my employer to no end, but he'll be the first one up against the wall when the Revolution happens. Fucking capitalist pig dog.

What really annoys me is the faux "click" sound of an unaltered XP install, the one that's bound to Windows Explorer "Start Navigation" events. It's never in sync with the mouse click. Second most annoying is the crumpled paper sound when the "Recycle Bin" is emptied (are those bits really recycled? Hmmm?). I turn those off immediately after an install.

Somewhat less annoying (but all too common) are users that bind the sound of a toilet flushing to the "Empty Recycle Bin" event. Invariably, they're the sort of person for whom a fart joke is the pinnacle of humor. But they bitch like hell when you bind the sound of a lusty wet ripping flatus to each mouse click. "My computer's been hacked!" they complain. "I was humiliated in front of a client!"

How d'you like me now, bitch?

k.

Oh quit complaining...

... you'll always be able to disable the sound by changing your master boot record.

Different approaches to startup sounds

It's striking how different this proposal sounds to how the Mac startup chime works.

Scoble dances around giving a full description, and it sounds like things are still being fleshed out, but the clear implication is that the plan here is to play some kind of music at either the login screen or (presumably if auto-login is turned on) when the current user gets to a working desktop. Implicitly, this is going to take a while, so they encouraging you to go for a walk and come back when the chime plays.

With a Mac, on the other hand, you get a polyphonic startup chime right when the machine is turned on. This fills a couple of functions, including welcoming the user to start working on the computer soon, and proving that the machine passed POST tests. Next the hardware is initialized, and system services start loading. Up until 10.3/Panther, the user would be presented with a series of frequently-vaguely-understood system services one by one as they loaded, but with 10.4/Tiger, the whole startup process was re-thought and replaced with launchd [arstechnica.com], which in turn made it possible to boot the system boot much faster (don't load unneeded services, delay non-critical ones until later, run as many of the others in parallel, etc) so that now you just have a sham progress bar [daringfireball.net] as the system boots as fast as possible up to the login screen or desktop.

What is the better use of resources: figuring out how to make the system boot so fast that you don't have time to get that cup of coffee, or hiring 70s rockers to compose a melody to play once you've finished brewing another pot? Hmm.....

And before you say that Microsoft doesn't have as much control over the hardware, that's baloney. Be didn't have control over the hardware, and they had a hell of a lot less resources than Microsoft, and yet they still figured out how to get BeOS to cold boot to a functional desktop in 15 seconds or so. No OS shipping today that I'm aware of -- Windows, OSX, Linux, etc -- manages to do that as well as BeOS did a decade ago, and the hardware has only gotten better in that time. Why not? It's obviously doable. Figuring out how to get computers to do that again would be wonderful.

Sounds == Annoying

When will people understand that sounds can be annoying?

Sounds on web-pages are annoying, sounds when you start your computer or just use it normally are annoying, even in games sounds can be annoying, most of the time you just don't want to hear a sound, either because you don't want to make any noises or because you're listening to music.

When is the last time that you were listening to music and some awefull piece of music emanating from your speakers 3 times louder than the music you were listening to all of this because someone on myspace tought it was cool to put music on their main page?

My point is, make this a commandement : Thou shalt not make any sounds unless necessary. I mean really necessary, what's the point of having your computer make some pseudo-zen chime when it gets started up?

Oh well, it gives you a couple of coolness points if your start up sound sounds like "SEGAAA!!!"

Soundscapes

In case any one is wondering about the nature of the sounds in question, there are samples of Robert Fripp's work online. One of my favourites is a recording from a building that still exists, but saw so much tragedy: the World Financial Center [dgmlive.com].

Much as I like RF's work, I still expect people will be able to turn the startup sound off, without having to hack anything. The way computers are used in quiet environments such as libraries and classrooms, that would be very inconsiderate of M$. No sound is that good.

Re:Oh FFS

We're all capable of swapping the startup.wav for an empty file, should we so wish.

Unless, of course, they tag it for WFP [microsoft.com]. That means, whenever you change it, Windows promptly changes it back and then displays a dialog telling you off for being such a naughty boy. In current versions of Windows, it's possible to disable WFP, but there's no particular reason why that should remain true.

They're currently talking about whether or not to do something like this.

April fools?

/me looks at calendar

No it's not april fools day...

This can't be serious guys, just imagine booting your laptop during some meeting (happens all the time), conference, whatever, and being unable to disable that sound. That would piss off so many people that just this would be reason enough to switch back to XP.

Nah, Microsoft is doing a good job of shooting themselves in the foot lately, but this is too much...I think Scobleizer is pulling our legs here :D

They'll crack it

Well, if people manage to change the boot/login screen of Windows XP, they're sure as hell gonna be able to locate the small bit of code relating to the startup sound.

Hell, I'd learn how to crack just to get rid of it. Personally I like Windows making no sound at all, no boot up sound, no shutdown sound, no bloody minimize or maximize sounds.

The only reason I'm considering getting Vista is because of DirectX 10. If any of you have seen the Crysis CryEngine videos you'll know why (Linky [google.com] [video.google.com]).

Volume

If it's like the other 'system sounds' in Windows, they'll be recorded at full volume, unlike your music which is at -20 dB average. So you've got your computer connected to a nice sound system, you set your volume so the music (movie, etc.) is audible, and the system sounds will be loud enough to wake the dead.
At least the systems sounds can be shut off.

Please Microsoft, copy Apple's Sounds control panel which has a separate volume setting for system sounds.

Apple

computershave "forced" the start sounder for like 20 years and I have never seen a complaint, why is it ok for Apple and not for Windows?

Re:Apple

Apple was the first computer to have a "start up" sound other than a beep. Responding to customer demand they added a feature that allowed you to turn it off. Microsoft, on the other hand, is removing a feature that, for the past 20 years, people have stated they want.

See the difference?

Kind Regards

Prats

So apparently, whoever thought this up doesn't ever, ever, ever use their laptop/computer in:

1) Schools, Colleges, Universities
2) Offices
3) Libraries
4) Home use at night
5) Conferences
6) Broadcast applications
7) Confined areas (trains, planes, wifi hotspots, cafes)
8) With an amplifier

Apart from the obvious waste of MY money that I gave MS with my purchases, which they have spent to hire someone to make a sound that I don't want and will never want to hear (no matter what MS say), this is a mind-trick.

Soon, the execs will "realise" that their customers have concerns and provide an off switch, thus putting into people's minds that they "listen to their customers". They were thinking that all along, it's just another way for people to continue talking about Vista that they will "remedy" by the time it comes out. It stops people thinking "But is it secure, is it easy to use, is it cheap, is it compatible?" and instead make them think "Well, they solved the worst problem, that stupid startup sound can be turned off". I don't want an "experience" with an OS. I would want to get some work done. I don't want it all to be integrated and matching - I would want it to boot fast, get on the Internet securely and not get in my way.

I turn off ALL sounds, no matter what the OS. And I usually have my speakers off except when I'm anticipating an IM and have turned its notification sound on, or when I choose to have sound (DVD's, MP3's etc.).

This is what used to wind me up about Windows - I have little to no control over the OS without bundling it full of freeware to do the job. I don't WANT Adobe Acrobat pre-loading at startup - I use it on less than 5% of my boots. In order to GET ASKED whether I want it to happen or not I have to install things like Startup Monitor from www.mlin.net. And still Adobe insists on re-trying every time I update it. I don't WANT it to, ever, at all, in any way, but there's no option for that.

I don't WANT program X to access the Internet - at all, ever, under any circumstances. It might be a game that has absolutely no need to, or that I only use on the LAN, or it might be trying to act as a server all the time, thus giving me an instant security hole. But it's going to take until Vista for me to get a choice of whether or not I will allow it unless I install ZoneAlarm or something similar (which I've been using for this purpose for many years now).

I don't WANT program X to install itself under some silly subdirectory - I really don't. Program Files is possibly the worst organised folder on any Windows drive because everything that ends up there chooses it's own structure - by company name, by product name, by some weird abbreviation - I don't WANT that. I CAN and WILL choose where this stuff goes, given half a chance. I have systems that differ from the software authors idea for a good place... I have categories - Audio/Video, Internet, Games, Graphics, Hardware, Utilities, all of which I have a perfectly clear idea of what should be where - I can organise my start menu in this way but rarely do you get a choice of where a game sticks its icons. Even rarer is the program that lets you CHOOSE where you install on the hard drive.

I also WANT to be able to move any folder without breaking anything and having to regedit to fix it (if its possible to move it at all). I don't WANT My Documents or My Music or My Pictures or anything My, I have a perfectly well organised file structure myself and don't want every program creating a "My" directory and putting its stuff in there.

I don't WANT to have to use five-thousand user-land applications that all put an icon in my system tray that I cannot remove without breaking stuff, cannot hide without a load of freeware and do not ever WANT just to use a poxy mouse or a hotkey or a wifi card. I don't WANT stuff to Auto-Update without my say-so, no matter how important someone else deems it is - I will choose WHEN and WHAT updates I install after carefully readi

A brain dead suggestion

You can turn on your Vista machine, go eat some cereal, while your machine is cold booting and then this gentle sound will come out telling you that you can log in. You won't need to wait for your machine to startup, he says.

He's then also saying you need a preset sound that can't be changed to realize your computer is on, and you won't hear this equally well with a custom sound that you've picked yourself. In what tragic accident did this guy lose his brain cells?

Volume control in a Windows machine is a wild west. A mess. The startup sound is designed to help you calibrate or fix something that got out of wack when you startup your machine.

Good point. This is useful for a one-time startup sound indeed, or a sound you can keep on for as long as you wish yourself. When you're happy with your sound settings, you're then forced to keep it o... whaa, wait a minute, why is that? My sound effects are already OK, why should I keep hearing it? This can't be anything else than a cover up reason for the real object:

Make the Windows startup an annoying and enforced branding sound so people will hear "oh, this is Vista!"

Maybe a kind of cool thought the first 2 minutes or so of Vista user installs at a company or home, but hardly after 2 years.

Funny to even be in a position to discuss it

As a longtime Linux user I find the whole debate kind of funny. (Anti-flame disclaimer: I don't mean to 'should' or 'shouldn't' anyone regarding their choice of operating system.) It's kind of a stragne scenario, isn't it? In the end, Microsoft will probably put a checkbox in a Control Panel GUI that lets you turn off this sound, or even (if the marketing people can be distracted with something else for long enough) change the sound to something else. At the very least they'll have a Registry setting for it. But in the mean time there's a guy at Microsoft trying to make a decision about whether Windows users should be allowed to turn off a noise their computer makes. A pleasant-sounding noise, to be sure. But the decision is entirely in the hands of a person who, if the marketing people have strong enough control over Vista's brand image, might decide there's nothing Windows users should be allowed to do about it. Short of getting their hands very dirty with a hex editor, that is.

A very foreign idea to me. My current distribution of choice, Ubuntu, has some sounds enabled, and they do add to the brand image. And I do turn them off. And no one, not even the designers at Canonical, can ever tell me that I can't.

Re:I hope this debate is a joke

I think the fact that Microsoft considers this a feature worthy of pushing shows how trivial "enhancements" to Windows have become at this point. They're not bothering to fix what really needs fixing.

Re:I hope this debate is a joke

I think the fact that Microsoft considers this a feature worthy of pushing shows how trivial "enhancements" to Windows have become at this point.

It's just a marketing exercise.

Quite smart, really - you generate a lot of hype about something absolutely trivial and get the user community, blogs, forums etc all hyped up. Then you implement the trivially pointless feature you've managed to convince people to really want, and proudly announce that you're responsive to your customers needs.

Then you can get quietly back to locking them out from their own data with proprietary formats and DRM.