Microsoft's New Linux-Based Wireless Network

MECC points to an article about Microsoft's new wireless network. From the article "The next time Bill Gates sends an e-mail through Microsoft's shiny new Wireless LAN it will be passed through a behind-the-scenes Linux-based network appliance." Microsoft has partnered with Aruba Networks for a large corporate wireless LAN deployment, involving 277 buildings and 5000 access points, 'all Linux based.'"

wait

If their operating system is soooo great for servers, routers, etc, why don't they use it in their own business?

Re:wait

Simply a temporary measure until access points advance in power enough for Windows WAP.

The current hurdle is getting the HD space to store the UPnP Aero interface.

Re:wait

More like an expensive marketing campiain so they can replace the APs and routers with WindowsCE devices while claiming linux just couldn't cut it. Then they can make all sorts of claims on the reliability, configuration and service linux offers.

Re:wait

Because they are a publicly traded company and need to improve shareholder value by keeping costs low?

Just guessing...

(and no, the extra cost for an MS solution isn't in licensing their own tech... it is all about maintenance and support)

Re:wait

Perhaps the "facts" are different when it is your wallet the money is coming out of...

Re:wait

Would there be a headline saying "CEO of United Airlines chooses El Al for flights to Israel?" No, there wouldn't. So what's the big deal?

Its a big deal because the CEO of United Airlines did not run a marketing FUD campaign to discredit El Al, nor did he hire scum like Bill Hilf to spew the same FUD in the media, nor did he use another airline to sue El Al on bogus patent dispute grounds. You get the picture.

Re:Bad analogy.

I worked for IBM Global Services when Ifirst got out of college - we ran Lucent's UNIX operations for 'em. I haven't checked lately, but back then, Lucent made its own switches, routers, etc. We used to interface with their network techs all the time who eventually revealed to us that 99% of their gear was Cisco equipment. It was more reliable, easier to manage and Cisco cut them a bigger break at volume than their own internal supply chain.

We used to laugh about that, but I guess their stock troubles of the last 6 years are no surprise, given that sort of internal mess.

A lot of posts miss the point

A lot of you are missing the point. For most instances it's about saving money. But sometimes there are public appearance issues that are more important than immediate cost. By using a direct competitor's product, you are admitting your competiting product is not only inferior, but so vastly inferior that free licenses and free in-house support are still not enough to use it. This hurts sales of that product long term. Even if using your own stuff costs more now, you hope that saving face and eating your own dog food will result in sales that make up for it. Microsoft has no equivalent to Cisco's IOS. However, they have an embedded version of windows that is poised directly at linux. And the real news of this is that Microsoft has been so vapidly against linux. I mean they have fought dirty and mean and lied through their teeth. Now this product they have utter distain for is aparently vastly superior to one of their products? Kinda a big kick in the nuts if you ask me. They probably should have just stayed with Cisco and saved themselves the embarassment. It makes them look foolish.

Re:wait

The big deal is the hoopla from Microsoft about how
their product is superior to everything everywhere,
and it is ready to do everything, yeah.

If Microsoft historically was saying "Our OS
is good, and getting better all the time,
and here are some succes stories", they would
not be so open to criticism on this point.
( I am sure there would be some anyway, but... )

Yes, Microsoft has it's place and strengths,
just like everything else out there.

Re:wait

When I worked at a fast food joint, we still had pizza/subs/etc ordered in. Just because you produce a certain product doesn't mean you'll never go to the competition.

Re:wait

Didn't we hate IBM once, too?

Not you my son, you weren't born yet....

But yes, IBM was hated but for total different reasons than MS is. Take a look at the history of Amdahl to see how the HW area was and then look at IBM's pricing back in thiose days. The first laser printer I worked with was rented from IBM for approx $15000/month and we managed to burn 3 of them down to the ground. Oh and they were huge! IBM was a financial vaccum cleaner, people wanted alternatives, IBM didn't.

Re:wait

> Not you my son, you weren't born yet....

You forgot to explain "bundling" to him...

An interesting comparison here [pgts.com.au].

Re:wait

Or of course there's the contractual stipulation that any software developed on their mainframes (back in the day) was the property of IBM. IBM used to be the enemy, it's true; today we should all be congratulating them for coming SO FAR. From "your source is my source" to "open source"... IBM is the closest thing I have to a favorite corporation.

Perhaps it's their real strategy...

I could see them doing this on purpose to say, "See Linux DOESN'T belong on the desktop. It's only good for doing SOME TYPES of behind the scenes stuff." This way I imagine they cover their asses in the markets they most care about. That's all I thought before even reading the article.

Re:Perhaps it's their real strategy...

Of course Microsoft has dogfood in this area. They sell Microsoft branded networking gear. They sell an embedded OS that is suitable for appliances, including network devices.

And Microsoft has been doing this for years.

Ratboy.

Re:Perhaps it's their real strategy...

The MS zealots on slashdot are far more vocal, hysterical and obnoxious than those they scream at these days.

Re:Perhaps it's their real strategy...

Just the first link I found...

http://www.californiacomputer.com/Shop/product.asp ?catalog_name=CaliforniaComputer&category_name=&pr oduct_id=R84-00001&cookie_test=1 [californiacomputer.com]

google for "Microsoft router"

"Microsoft 54G Wireless Base Station
Includes a 4-port 10/100 Ethernet switch 802.11g technology, transfer data up to 54Mbps Smart Windows CE-powered expandable platform Interoperable with 2.4GHz wireless frequency (11 Mbps and 54 Mbps) Backwards compatible Built-in firewall protection 256-bit Wi-Fi protected access"

So, as you can see, not only is it a Microsoft branded wireless router; it is based on Windows/CE.

That covers both of my points.

Ratboy

Irony?

My head asplode from the irony...

Re:Irony?

Windows Embedded [microsoft.com]. Used for all kinds of devices, including cars, network attached storage, cash registers, phones and thin clients. And according to this page [microsoft.com] at MSDN, Windows Embedded OS's can act as an access point, though nobody seems to have built a product around this yet.

The right tool for the job.

It looks like Microsoft understands something the majority of slashdot's users have trouble with.

History says otherwise

Is that why they had to put so much time energy and money to convert Hotmail away from BSD?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/08/01/ms_hotmail _servers_begin_switch/ [theregister.co.uk]

The point is lost on you

Time and time again Microsoft doesn't use the right tool for the job. Why? Because it's about saving face. You have to make it appear Microsoft products are always the right tool for the job. It may not be true, but that's what you want the public to think. What's the public to think if you never use any of your own products? They are going to think they are garbage. The idea is that the sales gained by saving face will outnumber the costs in using the wrong tool. The use of a directly competing embedded OS is giving a public image that linux is so vastly superior for this purpose that Windows embedded isn't worth anyone's time. "Windows embedded is so bad Microsoft won't even use that crap". Get the idea?

Linux doesn't have to be better

It just has to be free; as in 'commercial freedom', or 'independence'.

You can get Linux a screensaver for Windows here [linuxtracker.org]

SuSE 10.1, nothing but the newest.

Visionary

What are you talking about? Gates has left Microsoft to go head up Novell. Where he's spearheading their new Vista wireless network system to challenge the Microsoft monopoly.

And for the tin-foil-hat crowd...

Maybe they'll just make sure the network gets pwn3d so they can point their fingers at it, jump up and down, and yell "See! See! See!" like a bunch of 12-year-olds who just drank a case of Red Bull.

What choice do they have

Well what choice do they have when it comes to imbedded wireless APS. They can't put windows on one and not make it a full blown box sitting there wasting space and resources. This time it will be harder to eat their own dog food because if they end up making there own custom APS based on windows as a sort hey look what our stuff can do maneuver that would be labeled as stupid.

Re:What choice do they have

NT/embedded doesn't even require that you use the GUI. It's also used successfully within the Xbox (Based on win2k) and the Xbox's OS was ported to the Xbox 360, which as you likely know is a triple-PowerPC system. Obviously NT is still portable, even after it's been hacked to run on the Xbox :) NT/embedded is used all over the damned place. And, if they wanted, they could also go with WinCE, although I'm not sure why they would - but it's a complete, working multitasking OS.

Ok, wait one minute -

Are there Windows-based access points? I think not, so why is this news, and why do we care?

Does it really matter what it runs ?

As far as microsoft is concerned, they are buying an appliance to provide a dedicated service. As any profit minded company, they should not care what it runs behind the scenes as long as TCO is low on the long run. And linux is known to be a robust OS in the embedded OS arena. So most probably it will run without any problems, meaning less out of pocket costs for m$. What do they care ? Also, they do not have any expertise in networking hardware arena, so it is not against their motto of not to use a product from the competition. I am not sure what's newsworthy about this story ? Slow Friday may be ?

Re:Does it really matter what it runs ?

Microsoft sells routers and access points. Microsoft produces an OS that is claimed to be usable as a commercial embedded system for routers. Doesn't that give them experience in the "networking hardware arena"?

Microsoft continually harps on "TCO" issues (Windows vs. Linux). Are you then claiming that the "TCO" for Windows/CE is higher than Linux?

And, just a final question: What Microsoft competitor are you talking about?

Ratboy

Re:Does it really matter what it runs ?

LAMP has a lower TCO than Windows/IIS/SQL Server/.NET, even when the cost of software licenses is dropped to zero, yet they run their sites on their own software. Linux file servers can run more efficiently on less hardware than Windows file servers, yet they use Windows file servers. SVN is far more flexible than VSS yet their developers use VSS. Their motto is to eat their own dog food. Yet this time they didn't swallow it.

Re:Does it really matter what it runs ?

You bring up a very interesting point mentioning TCO. When both products' software is free (Since Windows is free to Microsoft) which one do you choose?

Outdated

This is old news. When my organization was looking at managed wireless vendors a year ago we did an eval of Aruba and they were already bragging about getting the Microsoft account.

That said we didn't go with Aruba, mostly because their pricing was pretty Microsoft-esque. In other words, worse than a prison shower.

I'm confused

So is it ... "The power of Linux brought to you by Microsoft." or

  "The power of Microsoft brought to you by Linux." ???

Sheesh

Is the average Linux advocate really this pathetic and sad? Microsoft buys a bunch of freaking wireless appliances that happen to use Linux, and this warrants a big freaking article? I bet the Cisco routers they're replacing don't use Windows, either. Is Microsoft supposed to have a "WINDOWS ONLY LOL ROXR" policy on any electronic device down the copy machines?

I bet they might have a coffee machine that uses embedded Linux as well. Maybe LinuxWorld needs to send in a few spies to rat it out.

Ballmer banned iPods + Google: why not?

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_a rchive/2006/04/03/8373041/index.htm

Ballmer doesn't let his kids use Google or iPods [cnn.com]. I don't find it so farfetched that Microsoft might have at least a slight bias towards wanting their employees to use their own products, both as a matter of company pride and as a matter of "dog food"--the more people in the company who use a product, the more bugs get squashed before the product gets released.

Re:Sheesh

Is Microsoft supposed to have a "WINDOWS ONLY LOL ROXR" policy on any electronic device down the copy machines?

Actually, as someone who is currently working with MS as a potential customer, this *is* a big deal. MS does have a very strong bias and written policies about using Windows everywhere they can. I could point to several compromises thay've had to make to do this as well, but I like my job. If a project/product cannot be done with windows, it can be justified anyway, but it's an uphill battle. In most cases, the fact that an appliance runs Linux makes it an even harder battle - things like switches/routers etc that run RTOSs like VxWorks get by with no problems, but throw in a management or monitoring solution based on linux and your job is much much harder.

Re:Sheesh

It's really very simple. Microsoft has been talking smack about Linux for years, about how Windows is better, lower TCO, etc. Now they've been caught using Linux-based appliances.

If nothing else, it's funny. It's like an environmentalist ranting and raving about SUVs driving the environment until someone points out, "dude, you're driving a Hummer."

Essentially, Microsoft's rhetoric HAS been "windows only lol r0xr." Now they have to eat a little crow.

Re:Sheesh

Wow, you sound really emotionally invested in this issue. Take a few deep breaths. Repeat after me, "The size of my dick has nothing to do with the success or failure of Microsoft." There, feel better?

Anytime a big company uses Linux in a large installation, that is news. Embedded Linux is something most geeks here don't get to play with that much, so this is news. The fact that a company that is fighting tooth and nail against open source uses open source, that is also news.

Your ridiculous strawman, slippery slope, and ad hominem arguments only highlight the growing panic amongst luser admins who have staked their careers on a steaming pile of crap.

Why? ;-)

If, as Microsoft says, Windows offers cheaper TCO, more efficiency, less maintenance, and fewer baby kittens eaten than Linux... why can't they use Windows for their wireless network? Sure, I don't expect them to put a full installation of Windows on it, but the basic OS (and Media Player, of course ;-) could be separated out and set up in a stripped-down configuration that just does routing.

This is funny. I want M$ to come out with their own distribution of Linux. One of three things will happen: 1. They will fail miserably. Yay, I get to laugh. 2. They will eat Linux. Not likely. We'd fight back. 3. They will help Linux. Yay, we get more features.

First Hand Intelligence is best

Instead of setting up a lab and stress testing the thing with fake user traffic and analyzing it from the outside they may have opted to dive in and experience what works and what doesn't from a "truer" useage perspective.

To see what happens in a large scale corporation when you deploy a product you have to actually deploy it in a large scale. They already know what their tools do and what the pains and plusses are. They really don't have any first hand experience with the competition other than tests and stories.

I personally think this is a great move on their part. Not only to improve their products, but to experience what happens when their competition is deployed somewhere else. The insight can be used across the board.

I've seen this before....

Good Evening Mr. Gates, I'll be your server today!

http://www.penguincomputing.com/images/stories/Tux /gates1280x1024.jpg [penguincomputing.com]

The next time

"Microsoft buys Cisco storage switches which run Linux!!!!!"

So what? Microsoft doesn't care a damn what's running inside.

I mean, give'em a break. FUD could be both ways.

Next year...

Next year is the year of Microsoft on the appliance.

obvious

It should be safe to assume that approximately 80% of Microsoft's employees who use the Linux-based wireless network will be using Google for their searches.

Firefox

Ben Goodger (the lead Firefox developer) is known to use Windows exclusively for development. Can we have story on that as well?

What a sad joke.

Slow News Day

From a story dated 04/11/2005. Right tools for the job, what's the problem? MS made a good choice....over a year ago. When in doubt, search the archives for a story to get the MS bashers drooling.

What for?

When I was at MS, they were installing a huge wireless network in all the buildings...when I left, it was something like 90% done...
SO my question is, if they already have a wireless network, and I know they do...why are they installing another one? Or is it really that they are UPGRADING the existing one...???

Either way, this would make the 2nd Linux installation that I know of over at MS...they have (or had) a set of servers over in building 43 that contained, "sensitive, critical data" that they couldn't (wouldn't??) trust to Windows Server...

Not surprising

Windows was never made to run on embedded devices like this (CE was never a server platform).

Wait, I'm confused ...

So, who exactly is getting assimilated?

I can just see Linus' avatar now ...

We Are PENGUIN,
All Your WAN Are Belong To Us.

Isn't it ironic?

Dontcha think?
It's like Microsoft, using Linux gear,
It's uncertainty and doubt,
Without any fear.
It's like using a device,
Not Invented Here.

And who woulda thought.
We snigger.

Old News

That article is over a year old! The Aruba/Microsoft network has been up and running for over 14 months now...

Just another marketing ploy

Microsoft has always said that Linux is great for running "infrastucture." Microsoft has always positioned itself as a maker of consumer products and has gone to great lengths to label Linux as an arcane OS that only a few high level geeks can figure out and that should only be used for very specific "technical" roles. In other words, it is great for servers but not the average desktop user.

This is just another attempt by Microsoft to say "Hey, Linux is awesome for servers, and only for servers. In fact it runs our servers." They are trying to subtly instill in every one's mind that Linux is not the OS you want for everyday use. They want the immediate response to someone who mentions Linux to be "We aren't talking about servers here." It is quite ingenious and sneaky.

Holy smokes, Bullwinkle!

April 11, 2005? You've got to be kidding me!

-h-

Yay

See above....oh, my goodnes...I can hardly contain my enthusiasm...zzzzzzzzzz

from the 'tell me something I didn't know' dept...

I am no microsoft fanboy, nor a linux or mac fanboy. (Although I prefer Linux for myself)

However, this article is (biasly) from a linux site, and it's over a year old.

Another issue is that Linux is used in Wired and Wireless routers all over the world. It's called 'embedded linux', and it's what runs your D-Link, Linksys, and Netgear Routers.

Anyhow, let's not become like Microsoft and spread useless misinformation, like digg, please. =p

Thanks!

changing minds

I've noticed clients are now getting some enjoyment out of exchange after I installed linux+postfix mail firewalls in front of them. It kind of feels bad. I think they are going to forget the reason why stuff is now working. I know their boss'n are ignorant of the reason. But anyway, maybe Microsoft wants to see this "improvement" for themselves.

NEWS FLASH ! - Linux developers use Windows PCs !

I mean, really, how boring are these stories?

Ok, so Microsoft uses Linux in some places, and some Microsoft employees have iPods, so what?

Next thing you know, they'll be sending reporters down to the local Ford plant to find out how many GM cars there are in the parking lot.

We live in a diverse universe guys, get used to it.

And finally some late breaking news:

It's unofficial: Microsoft bets business on Linux

Rodney Gedda, Computerworld

04/11/2005 08:31:35

Now that's hardly what I'd call current ;)

Come on editors, look at article dates when reviewing submissions - a story about a story from 12months ago is not exactly keeping your finger on the pulse is it...

Sad...sad.

This article was posted to Slashdot when it was released. While the Aruba stuff does make use of linux in some ways, you certainly aren't going to find a shell on it. It is one of thousands of devices that have linux inside for some functions. No one cares. Let it die. The moron above that thought it was all that expensive must have been comparing it to his linksys at home too. The stuff is pennies on the dollar compared to cisco.

Aruba

Is Aruba Networks located on Aruba Island (twinned with Fecalruba)?

This is a rumor

This, in reality, is a rumor. I'll wait until I hear an answer from someone "in the know" before I believe that Microsoft's wireless network is based on Linux.

TROJAN HORSE...

nuff said ;

Mirosoft bets business on Linux

My thoughts on this

http://rjdohnert.wordpress.com/2006/06/24/microsof t-bets-business-on-linux/ [wordpress.com]

Basically, not really interesting. ironic sure.

old story

to original poster and approver: ThIs Is An OlD StORy! CheCK ThE DaTe NeXt TIme! D0N'T WaStE My TIme With OLd StORiEs LikE ThiS!

Network Quality

All M$ stuff aside, my school ran a pilot network using Aruba Networks equipment last year (I was a senior at the time) that was utter trash. The stuff never ran, was constantly down, and their installation was one of their technicians duct taping 4 of their wireless repeaters in each room. The minimal research I did at the time made them look even worse, like a small start up company with a poorly made website, and almost no other mentions on the web.

Let's just hope they've learned some things from a high school with 300(ish) [student controlled, owned, and operated] laptops spread across a large sized high school in S. CA.

God we had a lot of fun pulling the cord ever so slightly loose so it wouldn't get power and they thought it was still plugged in.

Anyways, rants aside, best of luck to them and microsoft... I'd love to see it work, just to spite M$.

Re:Uninteresting

first reply to your post.

There, is that better?

Re:Not the first time . . .

> IIRC, Microsoft bought TiVO a ways back (didn't they?). You "recaller" must not be working to well, perhaps you should try oiling it. TIVO is a publically traded company and to the best of my knowledge, MS has no stake in them, so any excessive "thumbing" you are suffering from is entirely the fault of TIVO and it's unconscionable attempts to make money from its products.

Re:The Big News?

Linux (SuSE 10.1) works just fine, ACPI included, on my IBM T42p (2004) and backup T20 (2001). In fact, I routinely get better battery life than my cohorts with WinXP on theirs. ACPI *was* a bit of a mess a year or two ago, but at least on the 2.6.16 kernel, ACPI support seems to be pretty much complete.