Does Open Source Encourage Rootkits?

An anonymous reader writes "NetworkWorld reports that security vendor McAfee places the blame for increased numbers of rootkits squarely on the shoulders of the open source community. Others, however, do not agree. From the article: 'Rootkit.com's 41,533 members do post rootkit source code anonymously, then discuss and share the open source code. But it's naïve to say the Web site exists for malicious purposes, contends Greg Hoglund, CEO of security firm HBGary and operator of Rootkit. "It's there to educate people," says Hoglund [...] It's a great resource for anti-virus companies and others. Without it, they'd be far behind in their understanding of rootkits."'"

Scare Tactics and Get Real

If this site/domain name was not well know the hackers would just type in an IP like Click for Rootkit [70.85.5.142] and get what they need.

Simply because they use a domain name and the site is known does not make the information malicious. If you don't think rotating sites on rotating server exist to share compromised media and discussion about server cracking then you don't know anything. Rookit.com is open and out there, but the malicious people don't just stop here. Removing rootkit.com off the face of the earth would do zero to stop server compromises and rootkits.

And don't get me started about the quote..." make it advisable "to throw the computer away" if you want to be sure you got rid of the rootkit". Talk about scare tactics...sheesh. How often do you see a BIOS rootkit? And if you did, why don't you just reflash the BIOS? Or is this a sinister plan to make companies throw out old hardware to buy new so they buy new faster stuff to run Vista. That's it! It's all Microsoft's fault. Amazing how fast we can go do the jump off the bridge path.

Re:Scare Tactics and Get Real

Lets also remember that some of the people associated with this site were the first to notice the Sony DRM RootKit. The research that has been done on this site has really made it hard for rootkit developers to install their wares unnoticed - if you have the right tools. I could be wrong, but I think that Mark Russinovich from sysinternals has been there contributing to this site. It has led to the development of some really great tools such as the SysInternals RootkitRevealer - a really great tool by the way (http://www.sysinternals.com/Utilities/RootkitReve aler.html [sysinternals.com])

Re:Scare Tactics and Get Real

Man what a great IDEA! I am certified for hazardous rootkit infected computer disposal.. this month only my normal $250.00 disposal fee is reduced to
$100.00 per Pentium 4 computer or laptop infected with a dangerous rootkit. Our trained professionals will seal each infected PC in a hypo allergenic bag and savely transport them to our facilitity for disposal and recycling.

I get paid AND get gobs of good gear to sell on ebay!

Thanks for the tip! this will go great with my DVD rewinding service!

Yeah....

I agree that the information should be open, but the idea that anti-virus companies would be way behind if it werent for open discussion like this is pretty rediculous. a) the anti-virus company can just infiltrate the private communities (which im sure they do already) b) reverse-engineering. not as efficient but mcafee and other have the resources im sure.

Baloney

McAfee places the blame for increased numbers of rootkits squarely on the shoulders of the open source community

That's like saying Edison and Tesla are to blame every time someone gets electocuted.

Re:Baloney

This is another 'blame the tool, not the user' type of mentality.

Guns are evil, drugs are bad, rootkits are bad, P2P is evil, etc...
We've heard this all before.

Concrete is bad because it could be used to make a shoe and keep a victim from struggling whilst they are dropped at the bottom of a lake.
Knives are bad because they may be used to kill someone.
2x4 pieces of lumber are bad because you could use it to knock someone off a motorcycle.
Baseball bats are really evil becuase gangs can use them for intimidation.
Crowbars, they should be illegal anyway, who uses them? We need to have nails that dissolve with water instead of trying to pry them up with this lethal weapon.

Re:Baloney

"I'm as close to a 2nd Amendment purist as one is likely to find"

No you're not.

"But even for me, there are limits. Should people be allowed to own fully automatic weapons? RPGs? Artillary? Landmines?"

Do you really think that the founders would have been worried about individuals owning RPGs when they were quite happy for individuals to own warships?

Hint: read Article 1 section 8 sometime, and look up 'letters of marque and reprisal', if you don't know what that means.

The problem is...

The problem is that people don't understand that the founding fathers intended individuals to have the weapons necessary to fight a full fledged war with a world power. That was the point of the 2nd amendment. Suggesting that people have the right to bear arms for the purpose of hunting, sport, or to defend your home against burglers would have made as much sense to them as making a law today that guarantees the right to drink water, breath air, and eat a hamburger.

Re:Baloney

I place the increase of rootkits in numbers in a spectacular way to Sony and the DRM folks.

They mass produce rootkits by the MILLIONS.

Idiots.

-Hackus

Phhhbt...

"Rootkits... you say it like it's a bad thing" -Sony

Same as Virus

I guess it's the same concept as Virus code out there.
You can argue it's for educational uses, and I bet in some cases it is.
As everything, it depends on how you use it, but personally I'm for freely avaiable information on any topic.

Marketing disguised as "Research"

This report looks like a marketing ploy by McAfee to counteract Microsoft's OneCare Live product and Microsoft's reported move into stand-alone antispyware. As noted in a Cnet article on the same report, the report states that the term rootkit should be used in relation to malicious software only and not apply towards technology like Sony's DRM rootkit.

Double-edged sword. Duh.

Why is this kind of thing still interesting discussion? It's moot. Has been moot. You have freedom of speech so do what you like.

Business protection?

What is McAfree afraid of? Being bashed on rootkits.com just like Lavasoft? I think it's very important for the general public to know the information about virus and anti-virus technologies. Big companies try so hard to protect their secrets so that nobody else could get into the market. We often have no idea what kind of pieces of crap are running on our computers which we rely so much upon. Well, let the worms come out of the can!

Riiggghhhttt....

Without it, they'd be far behind in their understanding of rootkits

If you believe that statement, I've got some prime real-estate in Florida with your name on it ...

Errr...Sony?

Hum, I don't suppose the increase of Rootkits have anything to do with Sony's fupar? Seriously, while rootkits have always been around, I'm pretty sure it's Sony's fubar herd litterally around the world that brought rootkits into the eyes of the masses. So, in reality, you actually blame Sony for their increasing numbers.

Semantics

The linked article and the Slashdot summary twist McAffee's report to invoke images of someone blaming the likes of KDE for the existence of rootkits, which is misleading. They are in fact blaming increasing effectiveness on the fact that people are collaborating. If anything it's a glowing advert for the Open Source development model.

Also, the majority of the article is not about this issue, despite it being both the title and the Slashdot title. Instead, it's about current trends in rootkit design.

Does Open Source Encourage Rootkits?

As much as Closed Source prevents them.

Hello, McAfee? We're trying to help you!

OK, I'll admit that there are a lot of rootkits being passed around in the open. More than in the past, and most of them include the source code. The only reason this should be a problem for McAfee is if they aren't able to keep up with the volume. Would they rather that these things circulated underground so that 10x more sites would fall victim before McAfee managed to capture an example to analyze?

Full disclosure is the best way to force the holes that make the rootkits possible to be addressed sooner rather than later. McAfee should be grateful that these things are getting posted where they can use them to make their offerings more secure. Instead, they come off as a bunch of whiners.

Access to info == Potential to do bad things

I mean, how is this any different than say all the resources on how to make bombs on the internet (oh no, I just got my traffic flagged since I think it passes through AT&T networks). Anyways, just because the info on how to make weapons is online does not directly lead to people using that info for bad things. The people who truly want to do bad things will get their info from elsewhere. This is just a bad marketing attempt to screw people out of freedom of information/speech.

OSS is bad, must outlaw it.

Remember its for the kids... or terrorists.. or someting ... its gotta go ..

Security vendor FUD

Wow. A security vendor, who has a critical financial interest in creating FUD, claims that disclosing security flaws creates security problems. Forgive me if my eyeballs don't explode with surprise.

Security by obscurity has been proven time and again not to work. Nobody would find a security hole if it didn't exist. Likewise, if one does exist, if one person can find it so can someone else. The responsibility lies squarely with the developers.

Time for a bad analogy (seeing as how this is Slashdot and all): If the door of your house/apartment/room/basement was made of balsa wood rather than a decent hardwood (or a reinforced steel-belted Faraday Cage for you tinfoil-hatters), it would only be a matter of time before someone worked this out. And regardless of whether they boot your front door in and make off with your home entertainment system, or simply leave you a note that says "This door is so thin I can hear you whacking off to Buffy reruns from across the hall (by the way your dinner's getting cold, son)" you can bet if one person can work it out, so can someone else. And the next person might not just leave you a note. So, if the door is your responsibility you better fix it ASAP, or risk the consequences. And if not, you better fry the ass of whoever is responsible, or you'll still risk the consequences yourself.

Landlord won't give you a secure premises? Move out, and tell everyone about it. Or get a gun and a pit bull. Or barricade the door and use the kitchen window for access. Or all three. Windows has more holes than half a dozen slices of Jarlesberg? Switch to a more secure O/S, and add your voice to the complaints. Or install malware detection/removal tools. Or lock it down behind a firewall. Or all three. But don't just stick your head in the sand and hope nobody will notice, that approach just doesn't work.

If I were McAfee

I would be more worried about their future than trying to blame OSS for their business. My guess is that McAfee and the other Window virus/malware/keystroke logging companies will be out of business in about 3 years or certainly in major decline.

McAfee? McAfee?!?

Wasn't McAfee suspected of releasing computer viruses into the wild to beef up the sales of their wares?

Mod McAfee

Mod McAfee down -1, Troll.

He should have

put the blame squarely on the _ROOTKIT_ opensource community, and he may just have been partly right. the folks who write rootkits are, possibly, a part of the problem. the other part should have, of course, gone to that other community - the one that makes the environment in which rootkits hide.

still i think this article is mostly a part of a general move of "anti-virus" vendors turning into general "security solution companies" as microsoft slowly cleans up its act and erodes their "market". soooo - no reason to read too much into the statement.

Depends who you ask

"Does Open Source Encourage Rootkits?"

MS: Oh let me asnwer, me me me me!

Kids with code . . . Billion dollar companies

Did it ever occur to them they might want to employ more of the Open Source people instead of starting a self-righteous war?

Every possible action in the world has an economy surrounding it.

Don't like it? Change the economy of whatever vexes you.

And the answer is.....

ask Sony.

Knowledge is power

Power corrupts.

Solution: Close the websites; burn the books.

Open Source is a scapegoat...

I always find it interesting how they blame open source users for viruses and spyware, or in this case, rootkits. Last time I checked, isn't it the Microsoft (R) Windows that has the problems with these things? How much malicious code do you see for Linux, BSD, etc... I'm sure the answer is much less than for Windows.

When there's a problem in the open source community, they blame each other. When there's a problem in the proprietary source community, they blame the open source.

They really have no argument against the rootkit sites. I mean, imagine if terrorists were talking about secret terrorist plans on a certain forum/wiki on some public website. Do you really think law enforcement would shut down the site and ignore it? I doubt it, it's out in the open, so police would want to read as much of it as possible so they can learn and be prepared. If they shut down the site, everything becomes secret and they have no useful information to work with.

Same goes for the rootkits. If it's public, security companies can study it and learn from it and prepare for the worst. If they shut it down, they won't even know it exists until it's already hit some companies.

Whatever happened to the IDP?

Is it no longer possible to cut a node off from Internet access?

Whatever happened to the IDP?

Headline doesn't match article...

The main point of the article isn't about open source, but about websites that bring people together to work on technology that can be used for nefarious purposes.

From the article: "The predominant reason for the growth in use of stealthy code is because of sites like Rootkit.com," says Stuart McClure, senior vice president of global threats at McAfee.

Again, to me, this isn't an "open source" problem as much as an "Internet/can we stop bad guys from getting together and working on bad things" problem.

I somehow doubt rootkit.com is that dangerous (or I have no idea if it's even malicious), but I think we're likely to see this general issue come up again with websites on bomb making techniques, biological weapons etc... What should the government/society do if there is a public website that researches technology that can be used to make mass casualty weapons?

Proliferation of rootkits mean opensource works

Instead of users being limited in their choices of rootkits, users now have many different rootkits that are community supported to choose from. *THIS* is exactly why opensource is so important.

Who wants to be stuck with a closed source rootkit when your IRC channel and server change and you have no way to update it? Opensource empowers the user to take the best features of different rootkits to ensure that they get the rootkit that meets their needs.

Users can strip down rootkits to run on older hardware that would otherwise be discarded, or they can enable many new features that make these rootkits competitive with all of the current commercial rootkits currently being used. ... Seriously, though, all of this just means that security patches continue to become more critical and that deployment of patches on servers cannot wait for months or years like we used to do back in the good old days.

With the proliferation and expansion of UNIX desktop software that tries to emulate more and more windows (mis)-features, I think the rootkits and opensource actually do a lot to ensure that the basic applicatio n and OS security model in Linux and GNOME and KDE desktop environments remain secure.

open source == freedom

freedom encourages all sorts of things, some of them bad.

Live with it, it's better than the alternative.

two basic theories at work

1) open source makes creating root kits easier (for the kiddies)

2) closed source makes finding/removing root kits more difficult (for the admins)

I'll deal with 1 before I'll face off against 2. Making life easier for the kiddies is a lot less hassel than making MY life more difficult.

Two words: Poor Journalism ...

Anyone who has read David Hume's "A Treatise on Human Nature" [amazon.com] knows that human nature is the cause of rootkits. If one is looking for a root cause that fosters human nature's ability to distort in this particular fashion they need look no further than poor journalism!

If the journalist or her editor possessed the proper level of subject knowledge and/or integrity required for true journalism to occur, then this patently absurd question would never be asked in an article.

Problems with the article abound, but this lone article is far from the problem. Never the less, it is a quintessential example of the kind of absurd misunderstanding of the landscape of the subject matter combined with the complete disregard for the principle of the pursuit of truth as a core element of journalistic principle that is endemic to the disease of misinformation which fosters misinformation in society today.

A few points that should be obvious, but are missed completely by this article:

1) The term rootkit stems from the fact that the concept comes from a UNIX environment
2) Most "rootkits" today target M$ proprietary products
3) Rootkits have always been "Open Source", unless you count ...
4) The biggest rootkit vendor is Sony, who works closely with M$

I could go on, but it is the misinformation propogated by piss poor journalism coupled with the lackluster education levels of the vast majority of the members of society in the free world that is the cause of most problems in the world today.

AntiVirus scare tactics: why the FUD keeps coming

The reason the AntiVirus vendors keep producing this kind of inflamatory FUD is because it works.

Every time an AntiVirus company issues a fear mongering white paper, press release, or paid article placement in a magazine they get explosive coverage, dozens or hundreds of free articles written about them or their topic of interest, nearly all with links back to their original article. Within limits, bad publicity is publicity and publicity is good.

Meanwhile, companies like mine that are building next-generation network security systems (shameless link to Intrinsic Security AntiWorm [intrinsicsecurity.com]) and who try to be good network citizens must work a thousand times harder for links back to our web sites, don't get slashdot stories about us, don't get bazillions of blog entries linking back to us.

Mine is not the only company that suffers this problem. Every time a story by one of these highly bogus AntiVirus FUD spreading companies ticks you off, you should include at the end of your rant about it in your blog a few links to non-bogus internet security companies. We would greatly appreciate it.

Honestly, there are days when I feel like whipping up a FUD press release or scare mongering white paper. It would be easier than taking the publicity high road.

Sour Grapes

McAfee's just pissed that their product sucks at finding root kits.

In fact, McAfee is pretty much kinda sucking and finding any of the latest malware. They're just trying to jump on the anti-open source bandwagon because they don't have a better plan. Is Daryl McBride working there, too?

Wasn't aware that...

... Sony was part of the open source software movement.

Does this work for other things in the world too?

What if the discussion were about making nuclear bombs? What if it were about making custom biological agents or virii? What if the discussion was about any type of WMD?

I'm not trying to be sensationalist. I do understand that vulnerabilities in systems need to be pointed out before anyone will spend the money on corrective action. I also understand that if the knowledge is kept 'secret' that only two groups of people will have the knowledge -- the 'good ones' and 'the bad ones.' It does little to nothing to stop the bad ones from having the information, but it does a lot to prevent the public from knowing they are in danger.

We don't live in an ideal world. The vendors who make money by publishing software as a product or service do not often care about the quality of their work to the extent that it is safe for their customers and even if then did, are still typically unwilling to decrease the profits by spending time and money on fixes.

But still... it's hard to know which release of information will lead to good or lead to disaster.

I am in favor of the release of such information. The net result is that people (consumers) are trusting Microsoft less and less as a compounded result of their inattention to security and stability concerns. They can fight but I think the damage is done.

or....

just imagine a world were people were ethical enough not to mess with other people's computers. We could share files, and network all together into a gigantic group of networks where the computers would become self aware and solve our all our problems.

or to look at it another way, we would need a lot less computer techs and anti-virus companies wouldn't exist. Yah... A world without rootkits (read- not open source) is the way to go.

Here's another question for you

Does closed source encourage vulnerabilities?

Heh

That's like blaming guns for creating murderers.

Or blaming burger shops for making Fat People.

Clam's Law

"Any group outside the hegemony will be demonized". Okay, somebody probably said it before me, but that doesn't make it false. :P

The answer is yes

Yes, open-source software is obviously the problem.

startkeylogger

Information is neither good nor evil

Tread lightly on the topic of "illegal information". It's one step from making info illegal to censorship. Because you make one information "illegal", the next follows and soon you only have information that you're "supposed to know".

I'm in the security biz. Yes, pages like this make our work a bit harder. At the same time, they make it easier, telling us what to expect. Yes, they certainly open a can of worms, giving freeloaders and copycats the ability to create rootkits as well. But those kits aren't of concern. Yeah, they're a nuisance, but no more than the average scriptkid is for a nominally secured network. The kits an untrained person can create with the information given there aren't the main problems.

The problems are the kits from IT experts. And they can create those kits, with or without that information. By obscuring this information, you do not create higher security. You only make it less controllable.

Currently, the "good guys" can use this information to forsee a "trend" in the development of kits. You go there and you know what holes future (and current) kits will exploit, what approach they will take and you can already start to develop counter strategies without even having the kit. Without pages like this, the next kit hits you unprepared. You'll have to start countering when it is already here, not before its release.

In other words, silencing such info pages would take away from the defender. But certainly not from the attacker.

Complete Bullshit

So people who make root kits share their source, how should that reflect at all on the open source community?

This is like complaining about education in prison. Because inmates pass on the knowledge of how to hot wire cars or pick locks to other prisoners does that mean legitimate education in prisons is also bad. Typical FUD.

News flash.

Being able to read source code makes it easier to find flaws in said code. Details at 11.

what more??

What more does McAfee want??? They get to see the source code of rootkits without having to disassemble them...

My conspiracy theory of the day

How about the DoJ investigate Network Associates, McAfee, etc. to see what viruses they've been cooking up, either internally or through offshore Russian contractors? I'm sure there would be some very interesting findings regarding virus, worm, and rootkit appearances and money trails leading from the major antivirus vendors straight to virus creators.

That's my crackpot conspiracy theory FUD of the day, and I stand by it!!

(hey if those guys can sling FUD so can we!)

that's pretty funny

Why would anyone take McAfee seriously? They royally screwed up a recent update and deleted many important files. At least Open Source rootkits give people a chance to fight the problem.

Dan

Re:Percentage?

> What percentage of open source code is rootkits?

0.01%

> What percentage of honda drivers are mass murderers?

80%

hope that helps you.

Re:Linux root kits

Teh proof that Linux is bad for everybody. :P

Maybe I'm mistaken, but aren't most rootkits for another operating system?

Re:Percentage?

What percentage of open source code is rootkits?

What percentage of rootkits are open source? The last few I got did not come with source code or a GPL EULA.

are you kidding?

you're kidding, aren't you? If you're not, I'm sorry for you. Fortunately the world is changing, in the sense you seem to fear so much. I'm afraid of people like you, who consider that we are not prepared to handle information, and it's your, the government's, or whoever's duty to hide it from us to keep society working.
And related to that, maybe regarding the free as in free spech side of Open Source, I hope that the idea that sharing and cooperating is good transcends the computer software world, so when we teach our children to share they don't get so confused when they see what's going on in the outside world.

croto