Trans-Atlantic ID Card System 428
Th3P0stalDud3 writes "The Independent is reporting that the U.S. has asked the U.K. to use the same chips in their proposed identity cards as the ones in our proposed identity card. In effect, creating a trans-atlantic ID card system." From the article: "The aim of getting the same microchip is to ensure compatability in screening terrorist suspects. But it will also mean that information contained in the British cards can be accessed across the Atlantic."
Best laugh I've had all day... (Score:5, Funny)
From TFA:
You're kidding, right? Interfering is what we do
^_^
Re:Best laugh I've had all day... (Score:3, Insightful)
They seem to want to have a single world ID standard, which would be fine if there was one world state in which all human beings could travel freely. Unfortunately, it looks like people's citizenship will be restricted to one place, whereas all the governments of the world can get in cahoots to oppress people no matter where they go.
Re:Best laugh I've had all day... (Score:2)
Re:Best laugh I've had all day... (Score:3, Insightful)
Gives a whole new meaning to 'This bomb's got your name on it.'.
Re:Best laugh I've had all day... (Score:3, Interesting)
Let's call it the Oceanian ID Card!
Re:Best laugh I've had all day... (Score:2)
Re:Best laugh I've had all day... (Score:4, Interesting)
Identity is the thin edge of the wedge (Score:3, Interesting)
The problem is the information they choose to associate with the ID. And of course I don't just mean anything else stored on the card - any real info about you is stored on a central system and just keyed off your card.
But then these systems are already around, so perhaps fussing about the key used to access them is really a distraction?
Re:Best laugh I've had all day... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Best laugh I've had all day... (Score:3, Funny)
Or countries with letters in their names.
Re:Canada (Score:3)
It's easy to claim moral high ground, until you're expected to defend it.
Re:Best laugh I've had all day... (Score:4, Insightful)
No disrespect to actual Americans, but our Governments together are a bloody liability. They just agree blindly with what the other says and ignore what the voting public want. Its a huge back slaping excercise.
Thank God both countries contain (some) sane people!
On the subject of these cards, the expected cost is supposed to be about £80 (~$140) which is really not going to be popular with the public when it launches.
I'm all for clever technology to prevent crime, but the ID card is not going to help at all.
Re:Best laugh I've had all day... (Score:4, Insightful)
Interfering is what everyone does, if they can.
TotalFinaElf and Lukoil in Iraq. USSR all over Eurasia. France in Indo-China Burma. The whole British empire, for that matter (that would be the guys who drew the lines on the map of Iraq). And on and on and on.
The US is just as guilty as everyone else. The only difference is that they're the ones doing it now.
Hey... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Hey... (Score:4, Interesting)
Inconceivable! [downingstreetmemo.com]
(The only similarity is, when Shrub writes 2+2=5, he doesn't realise that's wrong, either).
Re:Hey... (Score:2)
It was the Ministry of Love that was responsible for the torture of the citizens who did not follow the party line...
Interrogator: Winston, what is two plus two?
Winston: four.
Interrogator: And what if Dubya says it is five?
Re:Hey... (Score:2)
-sirket
Re:Hey... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Hey... (Score:3, Funny)
Step 2. ?
Step 3. Karma!
Re:Hey... (Score:3, Insightful)
But honestly, you sound silly.
Re:Hey... (Score:3, Informative)
-sirket
Ter'ists are everywhere! (Score:5, Insightful)
FTA: Mr Chertoff said yesterday that it was vital to seek compatibility, holding up the example of the "video war" of 25 years ago, when VHS and Betamax were in fierce competition to win the status of industry standard for video recording systems.
If video compatibility is such a big issue why do they keep 2 main video standards (PAL/NTSC) and continue to put region encoding on DVDs? That lame "video war" comparison is just to appease the public into accepting a "New World Order" style of international identification. Once the US and Great Britain are locked in, it will be harder for other countries to resist if they want unencumbered travel for their citizens.
Re:Ter'ists are everywhere! (Score:4, Interesting)
this raises interesting questions about those counties that are members of the british commonwealth. Would this mean that in order for those countries to maintain the ease of movement they have now with other members of the commonwealth they would have to submit to U.S. rules on the IDs?
Yup, they're behind every Bush! (Score:2)
Yeah, it's a crappy analogy, but critical thinking isn't a extremist's strength at all (and right wing extremists are driving this agenda).
Frankly, I don't know why any country would want to facilitate sharing their citizen's private information with the United States. Unlike Europe, we have no regulation regarding the trading and selling of private information. Brit
Re:Ter'ists are everywhere! (Score:2)
hmm... (Score:2)
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If you feel like it, mail the url, and where ya came from to pater@slashdot.org.
I hope I see some anti Bush comments (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I hope I see some anti Bush comments (Score:3, Insightful)
Invoke Godwin if you must, but Godwin never contemplated that at one point the comparison was actually warrented.
And if you think it's just a reaction towards oppressors...we still have laws based on the Napoleonic code, we all have surnames and streetnames...so if something is good and makes sense, it gets us
Re:I hope I see some anti Bush comments (Score:3, Insightful)
There are plenty of regulations that the federal government has control over; auto safety standards, environmental emissions, census, media broadcasting, etc. Why not a national ID, too?
Re:I hope I see some anti Bush comments (Score:3, Interesting)
The United States has historically been involved in a number of atrocities that it doesn't much like to bee remembered for; like any large state it has its share of skeletons that it doesn't like to see make the history texts.
Personally I think they make for interesting reading. When studied instead of buried they further emphasise the fact that freedom is maintained o
Re:I hope I see some anti Bush comments (Score:3, Insightful)
Why is this a fact? Or are you (like so many others who say thos stupid crap) simply overstating your position in order to gain credibility.
It is not a fact. There are very good reasons to resist such a system, so many in fact that we don't need to fabricate new ones.
Wow (Score:5, Funny)
Cost... (Score:5, Insightful)
1984 was a good book, just not a great estimate, I think 2010 is a more realistic estimate...
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Cost... (Score:2)
Given that more and more transactions are performed remotely with the retailer and the customer connected via phone or web, I find it difficult to understand how these ID cards will prevent fraudulent transactions. And biometric readers at the customer end are not elegant and must be subvertible in many ways.
You can change your password as many times as you want, but if someone can masquerade as you using your biometrics then you are buggered. Revok
Re:Cost... (Score:2, Insightful)
"It'll stop terrorists"
"The 9/11 hijackers had valid ID"
"Why do you hate America?"
Re:Cost... (Score:2)
UK government motivation? (Score:4, Insightful)
The great irony is that in a recent discussion on the BBC News site, approximately 80% of respondents to a poll said they didn't want the cards, compared to well under 20% who did. Now, on-line polls are hardly the most scientific study in the world -- there was no CowboyNeal option for a start -- but IME the ones on the BBC do tend to be fairly representative when compared to proper studies.
One common objection cited in the discussion was the cost, and specifically who will wind up paying it, and how often UK governments give (mostly US-based) megacorps lucrative contracts that then strangely over-run and cost the taxpayer even more.
Another common objection was the shifting goalposts in the benefits it's supposed to bring us: pre-election it was all about anti-terrorism, until various Spanish bombings despite ID cards were repeatedly mentioned. Then it was illegal immigration, until about half the world failing to stop illegal immigration despite requiring ID was repeatedly mentioned. Now it's identity theft, but people are pointing out that super-cards could actually make it easier for professional criminals to take an identity, not to mention the hazards of locking all the key information about a citizen into a single, centralised database.
Perhaps the real reason is that the US wants it, and Blair is playing along? Not that that's ever happened before, you understand.
Elimination of the middle class (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Elimination of the middle class (Score:2)
When you have only a rich "greedy" class and a poor "victim" class, it makes the confiscation and redistribution of wealth much easier.
I particularly like this bit (Score:5, Insightful)
At the risk of being modded flamebait, when has that ever stopped the US before?
Re:I particularly like this bit (Score:4, Insightful)
9/11 and the rise of the neo cons has prompted a complete turn around where we are all terrorists until proven otherwise and any action by the US is justified under 'security' regardless of international law and conventions.
Its astonishing to contemplate the turn around from previous American apathy to a nation which now readily embarks on politically motivated military action.
Re:I particularly like this bit (Score:4, Interesting)
It really shouldn't be that astonishing. We have more than once in our history gone from strong feelings of isolationism to OMG there is a world out there and it affects us, let's kick its ass.
One thing's for sure... (Score:3, Insightful)
If the Britons don't knuckle under, it's clear that they HATE OUR FREEDOM.
^_^
Re:One thing's for sure... (Score:2)
Our Freedoms: (Score:5, Funny)
There's probably some more, but I haven't had a chance to get the latest list from Fox . . . these things change so frequently these days . . .
Cue the Hand Wringing Masses!! (Score:4, Insightful)
So, how many of you travellers appreciate using your Visa/MC/AmEx and ATM cards when you're in another country?
Re:Cue the Hand Wringing Masses!! (Score:2)
I don't go to other countries.
My country's foreign policy makes such excursions a risky proposition.
Re:Cue the Hand Wringing Masses!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Have you tried travelling without a CC? (Score:2)
Of course the data collected by all of this can be accessed by your, and other, governments and it's much more pervasive than the US and the UK trying to agree on a standard chip in their passports.
I'm must amazed that it suddenly becomes evil because they add this extra bit to an already government mandat
Re:Have you tried travelling without a CC? (Score:2)
I'm must [sic] amazed that it suddenly becomes evil because they add this extra bit to an already government mandated identification card.
Nice try, but no. Plenty of people were having problems with this before it was mandated...which may explain why they had to tack it onto an existing military spending bill to get it through Congress.
Re:Cue the Hand Wringing Masses!! (Score:5, Interesting)
More than you think, perhaps.
We can't carry large amounts of cash overseas. It's illegal: if you don't declare it, then when they find it during the strip searches, you're a terrorist or drug dealer and they confiscate it. If you do declare it, you're a terrorist or drug dealer and they confiscate it before the strip search.
Yes, I'm exaggerating, but not by as much as you think. It is illegal to take large amounts of cash out of the country without declaring it, and the government (usually local cops) will confiscate any large stashes of cash they find. They claim it's drug money, and charge the money with a crime [nacdl.org]. You have to prove that the money is innocent [kcstar.com] to get it back (scroll down to the bottom of that link).
No, I am not making any of that up.
So, you can carry travelers checks, you can carry your Visa, but you're taking a big risk if you carry cash. The really dangerous criminals are the ones in the uniforms.
Re:Cue the Hand Wringing Masses!! (Score:2)
Try again (Score:3, Interesting)
In this case we're getting worked into a lather about two countries trying to agree on a standard for their already issued government ID cards. The information contained in them is already accessible by the two governments. The only difference is that the border inspector can just swipe/scan instead of type to get that info.
So do please enlighten me as to how
Re:Try again (Score:3, Funny)
Heck, try to stay overnight in a chain hotel in another state without a credit card. It ain't easy.
It's plenty easy...just tell the clerk you don't have your credit card on you, and ask if you can use your uncle Andy's, as you nonchalantly slide a twenty dollar bill across the counter to him.
I've found that Mr. Jackson's credit is good at a surprisingly large number of establishments.
Oh really? (Score:3, Informative)
Heck it's even worse than a passport as it can be used to access and correlate buying habbits. They could know even before you take your trip where you're going, where you're planning on staying and then see what restauraunts you ate at while you were away. Any "interesting" magazine subscriptions charged to that? Maybe even a SlashDot subscription paid on it to show just how subversive you really are.
Stop with the privacy violating bandaids! (Score:5, Insightful)
"I certainly hope we have the same chip... It would be very bad if we all invested huge amounts of money in biometric systems and they didn't work with each other.Hopefully, we are not going to do VHS and Betamax with our chips. I was one of the ones who bought Betamax, and that's now in the garbage," he said.
VHS and Betamax weren't intended to compromise our personal privacy. I just don't see how he would dare to compare these two completely unrelated things. Was it to try and make this sound more benign than it is?
Mr Chertoff also proposed that British citizens wishing to visit the US should consider entering a "Trusted Traveller" scheme.
I propose we stop assuming *everyone* is guilty because of what ~15 other people did. Oh wait, *everyone* hates freedom so we have to do this or we're UnAmerican, sorry, I forgot. Send me for reeducation please... I didn't learn it right the first time.
Mr Chertoff said compatability and the checking system was intended purely to track down "terrorists and criminals" and the main aim was to provide a "fair and reasonable system".
Yet it hinders and inconveniences everyone including citizens of the United States who are having their privacy violated.
"When we screen based on names, we're screening on the most primitive and least technological basis of identification - it's the most susceptible to misspelling, or people changing their identity, or fraud," he said.
I'm 100% certain that whatever method the US Government puts in place will be full of holes large enough to drive a truck through. It's not going to solve any of the problems that we have had in the past.
Re:Stop with the privacy violating bandaids! (Score:5, Interesting)
My dad, Canadian, was crossing the border this winter to go camping, they stopped him and searched his camper, putting it through the fancy gamma scanner and everything.
Seems reasonable, right?
Except that while doing so they tried to arrest him, fingerprint him, and put him in a cell for the duration of the scan!
Now, my dad isn't an idiot, he knows he's done nothing wrong, he knows the border-crossing drill, having done it many many times before, and he just said "stop reading me my rights!", refused to be arrested for crossing the Canada/US border completely legally, with all the paerwork properly done.
They stopped their shenanigans, since they had NO REASON to arrest him, but I'm sure more gullible travelers are suckered into believing that this is right, else they'll be suspected of t3h 3v1l terrorism.
Now, I'm sorry, but you guys are obviously devolving into a fucking police state! Thomas Jefferson must be spinning in his grave .
Re:Stop with the privacy violating bandaids! (Score:3, Funny)
Dude, Jefferson is not just spinning in his grave, he's doing fucking backflips. When they passed the Real-ID he did a 720 degree half-gainer, leading into a double back-flip handspring, during which he did a mid-air pirouette. From there, he progressed to the parallel bars.
Let me tell you, at the end of that routine, he was dead-tired.
Civil Disobedience Geek Style (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Civil Disobedience Geek Style (Score:2)
Re:Civil Disobedience Geek Style (Score:5, Funny)
Too obscure. I suggest waving your hand in front of the asker's face and stating, "You don't need to see my identification. These aren't the droids you're looking for. Move along."
Already Canada, Mexico, Next CAFTA, UK, All FTAs (Score:3, Informative)
With CAFTA [wikipedia.org] and FTAs between US and Australia [ustr.gov], and other Free Trade agreements in effect or in progress, including Andean FTA, Australia FTA, Bahrain FTA, Chile FTA, Israel FTA, Jordan FTA, Morocco FTA, Panama FTA, Singapore FTA, and SACU FTA, you can bet that we'll see more of the same with our major trading partners.
If you accept the initial premise... (Score:2, Insightful)
The bigger question, in my mind, is "Are RFID chips in ID documents a good idea?" My feeling is, "Probably not."
I have a better idea... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I have a better idea... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I have a better idea... (Score:5, Funny)
Now come on thats a gross simplification, if only it were that easy to tell who the bad guys are.
shame on you.
They might also be the ones with the bowler hat, tank full of sharks, fluffy white cat, or silver dentures.
They don't care about the chip (Score:2)
Thanks George! (Score:2)
False embodiment... (Score:2)
1) Not everybody* has hands (for fingerprints) or eyes (for retina scans) or whatever else goes into this. What happens to these people?
2) When it gets forged (it will), then there will be no doubt (no questions) on producing the forged ID - a failsafe forgery. At least if a password is cracked, you can start again and change it. You can't exactly change your DNA over night...
The only reason they are pushing the ID card shit is f
Obviously... (Score:2)
Forcing it on the UK first would be a good first step to making the US ID system the global standard.
Is this a commercial decision? (Score:2)
The UK's ID card scheme (Score:5, Interesting)
These cards will cost us all up to £93 ($150+) each, with profits from the scheme going to private companies. Everyone's personal details will be stored in one huge database, which can be accessed by a variety of government agencies. A recent trial of the biometric technology used in the cards showed that it was quite ineffective. The Government is nevertheless convincing the electorate that this is a good idea by playing on the fear of identity theft (which the cards won't help prevent) and fear of illegal immigrants.
There's a good (as ever) article about ID cards at The Register [theregister.co.uk].
Re:The UK's ID card scheme (Score:4, Insightful)
And the companies which build and maintain the technology will be large campaign contributors and/or junket providers to the decision makers. But that will just be a coincidence. Right?
here we go again (Score:3, Insightful)
The issue for me is that the government can't think of anything better to do with several billion pounds. At least using existing technology might lower the budget a bit.
I don't really believe Big Brother is coming. I don't believe we will really have any less privacy or freedom when forced to carry "papers". I also don't believe they will fix any of the problems our society currently has.
I'm very angry that such a massive public expenditure will benefit no one other than whoever wins the contract to implement it. Oh, and the ego of the poiliticians who are gearing up to bully it through the house.
Speaking of which, why *ARE* they so keen to force this on us? Conspiracy theorists, please go nuts.
Re:here we go again (Score:2)
How about:
So they can test the waters to see how far they can bully the public into giving the Government their private data?
So they can sneek in extra police powers to "effectively use the power of the new ID cards to counter terrorism" that would otherwise get laughed out of the house?
So they can make new friends in the private sector ("We'll give you this contract if you do something for us")?
To make themselves look useful?
So they can get their hands on a whol
Not happening (Score:2)
Re:Not happening (Score:2)
Make sure the cash comes home (Score:3, Interesting)
Look at it like this. The US may have an awful lot of sheep that are having their freedom eroded by the political class, but the British are even more sheeplike. And all that the British prime minister gets out of this is the occasional phot with G Bush and a few well paid lecture tours after he finally gets the push - no oil billions. It reminds me of the sad comment of a member of the intelligence services: "It's depressing how little money some people will sell their country for."
Global Sellout (Score:3, Interesting)
Wouldn't it be easier... (Score:2)
WOW (Score:2)
In Other News (Score:2)
The US government today requested that Al Qaeda use the same identification chips in their identity documents as has been proposed for US documents.
Osama bin Laden has not yet responded affirmatively to the request. but promised to look into the matter at his next meeting with senior Al Qaeda leaders.
No doubt the US chips are made by an American Co. (Score:3, Insightful)
Otherwise I'm really not sure that I see the point. No one here is arguing that you shouldn't need a passport to visit the US. British passports are already machine readable at US passport control. Why should we need an ID card AS WELL ?
Could I Bypass Passport Control? (Score:3, Interesting)
Might save a lot of time stacked up at passport control.
Re:Could I Bypass Passport Control? (Score:3, Insightful)
Might save a lot of time stacked up at passport control. How about scrapping the ID plan, and instead taking 1% of the budget of the ID plan
and using it to improve passport control efficiency by adding more staff?
Re:Here we go again... (Score:2)
Unless you are a political dissident.
Oooops! Forgot about that one, didn't you?
I'm going to assume that you aren't a US citizen, but it has been our political heritage that the government only gets the powers the citizenry grant to it, not the other way around.
Re:Here we go again... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Here we go again... (Score:2)
If I'm not doing anything wrong, why do I need an ID card?
A card BTW, which is going to cost £87 just for the privilege of being alive.
Have you seen the scale of the ID card proposal? It is *not* going to be implemented for a measly £3 billion. Hell, the NHS IT system is going to cost £30 billion (500% over budget BTW) and the national ID card system will absolutely *dwarf* the NHS system.
Re:Here we go again... (Score:3, Interesting)
The ID card will also cost a lot of money, and bring no benefit to the holder. The holder essentially has to pay a lot of money for the benefit of the government (and we already pay handsomely for that).
"If you're not doing anything wrong..." Well, maybe now with the current government. Des
Re:Here we go again... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Why not? (Score:3, Insightful)
Sort of like Putin was saying that the worst thing in recent world history was the demise of the Soviet Union? Hell that came and went in less than 100 years. The Ottoman Empire doesn't even rate "weak sister" status any more, either.
The only reason that the UK used to have such influence (relative to its size, population, and resources) was the ballsyness of their Navy (and those telling it what to do). Thro
Re:Why not? (Score:3, Interesting)
More like less than 70 years, and Roosevelt was largely responsible: Lend-lease, an explicit US policy of replacing British Colonialism with US "influence",Bretton Woods and a US battleship sent to South Africa to impound British Gold Reserves pretty much ended Britain as an Economic power.
Re:Why not? (Score:2)
I find it strange that our soldiers can get killed in Irak, but our detainees in Guantanamo get no lawyers whike US detainees do - hmmm. If we're in, why don't we get treated the same ?
Re:Logical in Principle, Problematic in Practice (Score:2)
Re:Relax, people (Score:2)
I know you're being ironic here(right?), but I still feel compelled to drive the point home by pointing out that Yusef Islam (the artist formerly known as Cat Stevens), was barred from entering the U.S. because his activities "could be potentially linked to terrorism".
I'm not sure I trust the judgement of a government that denied entry to the author of "Peace Train".
Re:Relax, people (Score:2)
Re:The US is doing it all wrong! (Score:2)
I think you overestimate the attraction of a week in the self-styled "land of the free".
TWW
Obviously... (Score:3, Funny)
...those 30% are guilty of terrorism...or something...
We should bring them in for questioning just to be safe.
Re:I will NEVER carry an ID card (Score:3, Informative)
I'd love to know how you've been travelling abroad without a passport all these years. Or, have you been having that same position for the last several decades? This is nothing new, just a new tool. There's no more of a "threat" now for having to account yourself than there ever has been: you've always had to account for yourself. Customs, immigration paperwork, visas - wha