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IE Shines On Broken Code
from the crashing-is-unsafe dept.
Because it's used to it? (Score:5, Funny)
If you work in a monkey house, you expect to be pelted with shit.
- Re:Because it's used to it? by DigiShaman (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:36AM
- Different to what I expected by Ed Avis (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:21PM
- Re:Because it's used to it? by plover (Score:2) Wednesday October 20 2004, @01:24AM
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Slashdot browser testing? (Score:3, Insightful)
(http://www.sammamamma.com/ | Last Journal: Friday June 15, @01:49AM)
However, my Mozilla passed the test without crashing.
What they didn't say (Score:5, Funny)
- Tell me, Mr. Anderson... by b374 (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:05AM
- Re:What they didn't say by b374 (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:08AM
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Re:Security Issues (Score:5, Insightful)
by mccalli (323026) on Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:31AM (#10563436)
(http://www.eruvia.org/)Does the fact that most of the browsers crash mean that they are vunerable in some way?Potentially.
does the fact that they do crash a good thing?
No. Never ever is it a good idea to crash on receipt of invalid data. It's up to the program to try and parse this, realise it can't do so successfully, then act ccordingly (error message, best-guess try, whatever. I prefer error message myself, but can understand those who prefer best-guess).
Cheers,
Ian[ Parent ]-
Re:Security Issues (Score:5, Interesting)
by Trillan (597339) on Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:44AM (#10563510)
(http://pyile.com/ | Last Journal: Tuesday December 19 2006, @01:33PM)XHTML is supposed to be refused if malformed; HTML prior to 4.0 is supposed to be best-guessed. I'm not sure what the behaviour of 4.0 Transitional and 4.0 Strict is supposed to be, but I'm sure it's documented as part of the spec.[ Parent ]-
Re:Security Issues (Score:4, Informative)
by say (191220) <[on.hadiarflow] [ta] [evgis]> on Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:53AM (#10563573)
(http://eksploder.mine.nu/blog)I'm not sure what the behaviour of 4.0 Transitional and 4.0 Strict is supposed to be
It's kind of in the name. Transitional should best-guess. Strict should not.
[ Parent ]- Re:Security Issues by Ford Prefect (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:54AM
- Why I stay at HTML 4 Transitional by tepples (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:35AM
- Re:Why I stay at HTML 4 Transitional by Ford Prefect (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:53AM
- Re:Security Issues by say (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @09:26AM
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- Why I stay at HTML 4 Transitional by tepples (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:35AM
- Re:Security Issues by DavidTC (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @09:32AM
- Re:Security Issues by Ford Prefect (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:54AM
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Re:Security Issues (Score:5, Interesting)
by FireFury03 (653718) <slashdotNO@SPAMnexusuk.org> on Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:08AM (#10563674)
(http://www.nexusuk.org/)XHTML is supposed to be refused if malformed; HTML prior to 4.0 is supposed to be best-guessed.
This reenforces my belief that XHTML is the way forward since it reduces the code complexity of the browser:
XHTML: Try to parse - fail - give up
HTML: Try to parse - fail - Try to reconstruct - hit bug - crash
XHTML is also good because it removes the fuzzy area of what to do if the code is crap - with HTML, a web developer will write a page, won't bother to validate it and just check it works in IE. Since different browsers have different methods of fixing broken code, the results of this page are not platform independent. With XHTML, if the developer writes broken code it just plain won't work. The management who pay the web developer probably don't know anything about standards compliance and if it works in IE the developer gets paid, but if it just sits there with a parse error the developer will either have to fix it or not get paid (Good Thing).
That said, IMHO there is something to be said for a couple of additions to the XHTML spec:
1. a button on the "parse error" page which tells the browser to render it as tag soup - that way the end user can try to view the page anyway even if it's broken (whilest still being informed that it really is broken code).
2. an automatic feedback system in which the browser will post details of the parse error back to the server. Otherwise the developer may never know there's a problem (especially important with dynamically generated markup which may not be easilly validated).
Similarly, it would be really nice, IMHO, if browsers made it clear (by placing a big X on the status bar or something) when they are viewing broken *HTML* code since this would indicate to the user why the page might not look quite right and would be an indication to the management not to pay the web designer they hired since he is obviously lacking in the ability to do his job.[ Parent ]- 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
- Re:Security Issues by Anonymous Brave Guy (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:09AM
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Re:Security Issues (Score:5, Insightful)
by Just Some Guy (3352) <kirk+slashdot@strauser.com> on Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:17AM (#10564154)
(http://honeypot.net/ | Last Journal: Thursday November 15, @11:49AM)But is that according to the people who wrote the XHTML standard, or the user who just wants to see the web page?Just to be clear, unparseable XHTML is not XHTML. In "Matrix" terms, there is no web page. Instead, there is a string of text that may resemble XHTML to the casual observer but that doesn't really represent anything at all.
Arguing that browsers should half-support broken XHTML is like saying that a C compiler should do something whenever it encounters invalid C, since the user obviously wants to run the code and isn't interested in bowing to the pedantic demands of some irrelevant standards committee.
One is rather more important than the other in this context.
I agree completely, but I don't think it's the one that you picked.
[ Parent ]- Re:Security Issues by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:51AM
- Re:Security Issues by DrPizza (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @12:44PM
- The thing about standards... by Anonymous Brave Guy (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @12:59PM
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- Re:Security Issues by xoran99 (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:27AM
- Re:Security Issues by danheskett (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:58AM
- Re:Security Issues by jrexilius (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:51AM
- Re:Security Issues by Trillan (Score:2) Wednesday October 20 2004, @06:56PM
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- Re:Security Issues by iamdrscience (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:48AM
- Re:Security Issues by cbiltcliffe (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @09:36AM
- Re:Security Issues by shiftless (Score:1) Wednesday October 20 2004, @11:14AM
- Re:Security Issues by Bas_Wijnen (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:02AM
- Re:Security Issues by Anonymous Brave Guy (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:13AM
- Re:Security Issues by JohnFluxx (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:30AM
- Re:Security Issues by Bas_Wijnen (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:34AM
- Re:Security Issues by Anonymous Brave Guy (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:13AM
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- Re:Security Issues by muhcashin (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:00AM
which version of IE was it? (Score:5, Informative)
- Re:which version of IE was it? by metlin (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:36AM
- Re:which version of IE was it? by ClosedSource (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:56AM
- Re:which version of IE was it? by metlin (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:02AM
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Re:which version of IE was it? (Score:4, Insightful)
by Erasmus Darwin (183180) on Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:04AM (#10563649)"I'm not saying that the bugs do not exist, but if I had access to all that code (and presumably to IE too, since he's been at MS that long) - then it's quite conceivable that he came up with stuff that will crash on these browsers."Except that he 1) provided a copy of the random malformed HTML generating tool that he used and 2) managed to crash the closed-source Opera, as well.
It's a little ridiculous to suspect that he spent countless hours searching the mozilla, links, and lynx source code to find HTML-interpreting crash-causing bugs and then created a random malformed HTML generator as a cover story as to how he found the bugs.
[ Parent ] - Re:which version of IE was it? by beuges (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @05:21PM
- Re:which version of IE was it? by ClosedSource (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:56AM
- Re:which version of IE was it? by wimvds (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:37AM
- Re:which version of IE was it? by wimvds (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:41AM
- Re:which version of IE was it? by mark_lybarger (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:42AM
- Re:which version of IE was it? by julesh (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:20AM
- Re:which version of IE was it? by mark_lybarger (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:42AM
- Re:which version of IE was it? by sysadmn (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:40AM
- Re:which version of IE was it? by julesh (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:28AM
- Re:which version of IE was it? by egoots (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:54AM
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- Re:Off Topic by CrazyWingman (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:01AM
- Re:Off Topic by DrSkwid (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:24AM
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Re:Off Topic (Score:4, Insightful)
by SpaghettiPattern (609814) on Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:24AM (#10563761)With such a powerful parsing engine you would thing IE could parse web standards a little better.
Has it ever occurred to you that it is in MS interest to parse bad HTML? Maybe even to encourage bad HTML so IE is considered the best browser by the man in the street. Now where's my tin foil hat?[ Parent ]
- Re:Excellent! by LiquidCoooled (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:47AM
- Re:Excellent! by ggy (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:53AM
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Re:Excellent! (Score:5, Informative)
by metlin (258108) * <metlin@cc.[ ]ech.edu ['gat' in gap]> on Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:51AM (#10563555)
(http://www.metlin.org/ | Last Journal: Friday July 20, @01:58PM)Actually, the code does not seem that great.
Here's the mozilla_die1.html code
And the mozilla_die2.html code<HTML><INPUT AAAAAAAAAA>
It looks like he came across places where either boundary checks or type checks are not in place.<HTML>
<HEAD>
<MARQUEE>
<TABLE>
<MARQUEE HEIGHT=100000000>
<MARQUEE HEIGHT=100000000>
<MARQUEE HEIGHT=100000000>
<MARQUEE HEIGHT=100000000>
<MARQUEE HEIGHT=100000000>
<MARQUEE HEIGHT=100000000>
<MARQUEE HEIGHT=100000000>
<MARQUEE HEIGHT=100000000>
<MARQUEE HEIGHT=100000000>
<MARQUEE HEIGHT=100000000>
<MARQUEE HEIGHT=100000000>
<TBODY>
Attack of the marquees!
Besides, he's had access to almost all the browswer code, hasn't he?
I mean, these bugs are bad, but I'm sure if I had access to IE's code I could come up with a zillion bugs.[ Parent ]-
Re:Excellent! (Score:5, Interesting)
by eht (8912) on Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:03AM (#10563646)One guy with ten minutes came up with ways to crash Mozilla, Lynx, and Links, yet hundreds of thousands of programmers with years of access to the same code haven't fixed these same bugs.[ Parent ]- Re:Excellent! by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:05AM
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Re:Excellent! (Score:5, Interesting)
by roca (43122) on Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:38AM (#10564332)
(http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~roc)On any given day we know of many HTML inputs that will crash Mozilla, and many that will crash IE, and ditto for other browsers. Which ones get fixed is simply a matter of priorities. And we prioritize by looking at the crash to see if it looks like it could be turned into a security hole; looking at talkback data to see which crashes people are hitting most frequently; focusing on the ones that occur on actual real websites, and maybe after that when there's nothing else to do we fix the ones exposed by artificial testcases.
No-one has enough resources to fix every bug, not even Microsoft.[ Parent ]- 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
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- Re:Excellent! by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:05AM
- Re:Excellent! by Christianfreak (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:11AM
- Re:Excellent! by sysadmn (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:45AM
- Re:Excellent! by iabervon (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:23AM
- Re:Excellent! by joel2600 (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @01:12PM
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Re:Excellent! (Score:5, Informative)
by EMN13 (11493) on Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:09AM (#10563679)
(http://eamon.nerbonne.org/)As he stated in the article; the crashes are sometimes platform-specific.
I've tried this in 1.0PR firefox on win32, and the crashes do occur there.
I've gotta say - this really looks like a great tool; a simple and effective way of finding some bugs!
--Eamon[ Parent ]- Re:Excellent! by GAlain (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:55AM
- Re:Excellent! by plj (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:53AM
- Re:Excellent! by GAlain (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:55AM
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- Seems true for Slash code, too. by Vandil X (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:34AM
- Re:Seems true for Slash code, too. by tepples (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @09:29AM
- Re:Excellent! by SpaghettiPattern (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:01AM
- Re:Excellent! by Tralfamadorian (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @01:14PM
This is a blessing in disguise (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://www.winsper.org.uk/)
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Re:This is a blessing in disguise (Score:5, Informative)
by pohl (872) on Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:22AM (#10564193)
(http://screaming.org/)I remember crashme, and I just checked the debian packages and anybody can "apt-get install crashme" to give it a whirl.
I'd like to second the AC's suggesting of taking these HTML test cases and constructing an apache module that creates garbage HTML like this. The result would be a great contribution all browsers.
The mozilla project did have a test that sent the browser to random pages accross the web, which exposed it to all sorts of garbaged HTML, I'm sure, but generating randomly garbaged HTML would probably be a more strenuous test.[ Parent ]- Re:This is a blessing in disguise by Darren Winsper (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:37AM
- Re:This is a blessing in disguise by pohl (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:01AM
- Re:This is a blessing in disguise by iabervon (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:41AM
- Re:This is a blessing in disguise by Bazzargh (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:42AM
- Re:This is a blessing in disguise by Darren Winsper (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:37AM
- There's also "ntcrash", but Microsoft killed it by Animats (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @12:21PM
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- Re:Frontpage by Angostura (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:55AM
- Re:Frontpage by bmongar (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:59AM
- Re:Frontpage by ggy (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:57AM
- Re:Frontpage by g051051 (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:26AM
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- Re:Frontpage by bmongar (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:59AM
Tried with Safari on OS X ... (Score:5, Informative)
- I'd like to see a Safari test. by Dink Paisy (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:17AM
- Re:I'd like to see a Safari test. by prockcore (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @02:00PM
- Re:I'd like to see a Safari test. by hc00jw (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @04:52PM
- Re:I'd like to see a Safari test. by prockcore (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @02:00PM
- Re:Tried with Safari on OS X ... by Chanc_Gorkon (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:26AM
- Re:Tried with Safari on OS X ... by GAlain (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:07AM
- Re:Tried with Safari on OS X ... by GAlain (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:21AM
- Re:Tried with Safari on OS X ... by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:08AM
- Re:Tried with Safari on OS X ... by Swedentom (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:32AM
- Re:Tried with Safari on OS X ... by gregfortune (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:39AM
- Re:Tried with Safari on OS X ... by HadenT (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:27AM
- Re:Tried with Safari on OS X ... by Carewolf (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @09:32AM
- Safari crashes just like everything else. by jelwell (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @05:27PM
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Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... (Score:5, Insightful)
by nmg196 (184961) on Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:01AM (#10563633)> all the error correction code helps to keep IE bloated and slow.
Bloated compared to what?!
Slow compared to what?
IE has quite a small footprint for a web browser. I've opened this page in IE and Firefox. Currently IE is using 19Mb of ram and Firefox is using 28Mb. In fact, currently the top three processes using the most RAM on my machine are all open source products (the top two being Firefox and the enormously memory hungry Thunderbird which is currently using 58mb of RAM). All the commercial software comes later.
IE also tends to render pages faster than Firefox under most circumstances (except where Linux advocate article authors have carefully crafted CSS heavy pages which cause IE to slow down a bit).[ Parent ]- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by XO (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:23AM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by Minna Kirai (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:49AM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by XO (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:49AM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by Minna Kirai (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @12:43PM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by XO (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @12:55PM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by Minna Kirai (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @02:56PM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by Reziac (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:42PM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by Minna Kirai (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @12:43PM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by XO (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:49AM
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- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by Minna Kirai (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:49AM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by DrSkwid (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:27AM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by nmg196 (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:37AM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by Politburo (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:16AM
- Correlation != Causation by BabyDriver (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:05AM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by Synistar (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:36AM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by nmg196 (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:44AM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by Synistar (Score:1) Wednesday October 20 2004, @11:16AM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by nmg196 (Score:2) Thursday October 21 2004, @03:33AM
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- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by Synistar (Score:1) Wednesday October 20 2004, @11:16AM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by nmg196 (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:44AM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by renoX (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @09:02AM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by azaris (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @09:24AM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by vinc17 (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @12:05PM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by spectecjr (Score:3) Wednesday October 20 2004, @06:14PM
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- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by XO (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:23AM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by fireboy1919 (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:02AM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by judmarc (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:13AM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by fireboy1919 (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:28AM
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- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by judmarc (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:13AM
- Re:This Is to MS's Clear Business Advantage... by Valdar729 (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @01:30PM
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Konqueror and bugs (Score:3, Informative)
I think this is a nice feature.
I wish that konqueror would have been tested. It's a good browser.
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- Re:Let me get this straight... by AndroidCat (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:40AM
- Re:Let me get this straight... by lovebyte (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:40AM
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Re:Let me get this straight... (Score:4, Insightful)
by poptones (653660) on Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:52AM (#10563565)
(Last Journal: Thursday July 24 2003, @04:07AM)I cat binaries all the time - not biggie. Did you cat it to stdout or to your browser or something? Choosing to do something bad on your desktop and causing a crash isn't nearly equatable to something that could allow Ivan's porn TGP to rootkit your machine simply by sending it a properly formed TEXT file.[ Parent ]- Re:Let me get this straight... by jav1231 (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:39AM
- Re:Let me get this straight... by Kupek (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:12AM
- Re:Let me get this straight... by Feanturi (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @12:42PM
All Other Browsers? (Score:3, Interesting)
(http://www.polyprecords.com/ | Last Journal: Friday October 03 2003, @02:20PM)
- A quick google search... by ReKleSS (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:03AM
- Re:A quick google search... by Reziac (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:52PM
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- Re:All Other Browsers? by nmg196 (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:04AM
- Re:All Other Browsers? by TiggsPanther (Score:2) Wednesday October 20 2004, @09:13AM
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- Re:The power of open source by DogDude (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:00AM
- Re:The power of open source by BenjyD (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:37AM
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- Re:The reason for this is simple by oever (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:53AM
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- DOS? by tepples (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @09:52AM
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Re:Coding to Standards (Score:4, Informative)
by Jedi Alec (258881) on Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:46AM (#10563526)I'd really prefer it to just refuse to parse the page mentioning that the code is bad instead of crash. As much as I like Firefox/Moz, when a piece of software is fed bad data, it should say so, not die on the spot, ever.[ Parent ]- Re:Coding to Standards by Seahawk (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:09AM
- Re:Coding to Standards by Jedi Alec (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:56AM
- Re:Coding to Standards by Seahawk (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:09AM
Let the insults fly... (Score:3, Insightful)
(http://libtom.org/)
Yes it's a slap in the face. But seriously this is what OSS is supposed to be about. Full public disclosure. If he did find scores of DoS related bugs then the OSS crowd [who like to show their names when the attention getting is good] ought to pay attention and fix the problems.
You can't gloat how open and progressive you are if you scowl and fight every possible negative bit of news.
And "mentioning how bad MSIE is" is not a way to make your product any better [just like "he's not bush" isn't a bonus for Kerry].
So shape up, take it in stride and get to the board.
Oh and while you're at it make Mozilla less bloatware. 30MB of tar.bz2 source could be your first problem....
Tom
- Re:Let the insults fly... by bbuR_bbuB (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:08AM
- Re:Let the insults fly... by tomstdenis (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:34PM
Tested Konqueror (Score:5, Informative)
(http://cekirdek.pardus.org.tr/~ismail | Last Journal: Thursday December 23 2004, @07:19AM)
- Re:Tested Konqueror by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:49AM
- Re:Tested Konqueror by WindBourne (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:22AM
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Re:Tested Konqueror (Score:5, Interesting)
by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:50AM (#10563550)http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/mangleme/mangle.cgi
You're right, none of the samples work with Konqueror, however after doing a little testing myself with the above page it just took me about five tries to make it crash.
Bad luck? Maybe, but just try it yourself.[ Parent ]- Re:Tested Konqueror by Anonymous Coward (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:06AM
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- Re:Tested Konqueror by crazy blade (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:23AM
- Re:Tested Konqueror by Oestergaard (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:38AM
- Re:Tested Konqueror by Anonymous Coward (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:06AM
- Re:Tested Konqueror by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:51AM
- Re:Tested Konqueror by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:07AM
- Re:Tested Konqueror by KjetilK (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:10AM
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- Re:Tested Konqueror by BrianHursey (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:10AM
- Re:Tested Konqueror by WindBourne (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:25AM
- Re:Tested Konqueror by alexborges (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @12:04PM
- Re:Tested Konqueror by StormReaver (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @01:33PM
- 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
I've seen that before (Score:5, Interesting)
(http://hwestiii.dnsalias.net/)
I wasn't that experienced with it, and as a result, certain pieces of my code were syntactically incorrect. Specifically, I was using the wrong characters for array indexing; I think I was using "()" instead of "[]". I would never have known there was even a problem if I hadn't been doing side by side testing with IE and Mozilla. A page that rendered correctly in IE would always show errors in Mozilla. This made absolutely no sense to me.
It wasn't until I viewed the source generated by each browser that I discovered the problem. IE was dynamically rewriting my JavaScript, replacing the incorrect delimiters with the correct ones, whereas Mozilla was simply taking my buggy code at face value.
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Re:I've seen that before (Score:5, Interesting)
by Zarf (5735) on Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:50AM (#10563549)
(http://hartsock.blogspot.com/ | Last Journal: Wednesday November 21, @10:48AM)I think I was using "()" instead of "[]".
MSIE was embracing and extending your new syntax. They were effectively defining their own JavaScript variant. Meaning their JavaScript was a SuperSet of the real JavaScript standard. That means you can more easily fall into the trap of writing MSIE only JavaScript and inadverdently force your clients/customers/company to adopt MSIE as your standard browser.[ Parent ]- Re:I've seen that before by julesh (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:54AM
- Re:I've seen that before by MikeBabcock (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @12:24PM
- Re:I've seen that before by Chris Burke (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @01:45PM
- Re:I've seen that before by jesterzog (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @03:51PM
- Re:I've seen that before by julesh (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:48AM
- Re:I've seen that before by julesh (Score:2) Thursday October 21 2004, @09:54AM
- 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
- 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
- Re:I've seen that before by ronobot (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:23AM
- Re:I've seen that before by colinramsay (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:57AM
- Re:I've seen that before by GeckoX (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:52AM
- 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
- Re:I've seen that before by Reziac (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:16PM
- 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
Reality Distortion Fields ON! (Score:3, Insightful)
(http://hartsock.blogspot.com/ | Last Journal: Wednesday November 21, @10:48AM)
- Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! by eqdar (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:15AM
- Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! by The Bungi (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:57AM
- Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! by eqdar (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @01:25PM
- Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! by The Bungi (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:57AM
- You mean Gnu by PigeonGB (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:28AM
- Re:You mean Gnu by Zarf (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @09:14AM
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Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! (Score:5, Insightful)
by Alomex (148003) on Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:45AM (#10564396)
(http://slashdot.org/)Does this mean we've all been wrong about Microsoft products?
Actually yes. People here always talk about Microsoft products being buggier than the average, without any evidence to back it up beyond their own prejudices.
They use to laugh at the "much inferior" IE code, until the mozilla project got started and it turned out Netscape had the inferior code base.
OSSers used to laugh at the "bloat" of the windows source code.... until Linux got to have a decent user interface that is, and guess what? source code size is comparable to Windows.
There are many reasons to loathe the evil empire (monopolistic bully for one), but buggy code is not one of them. That is just something OSSers tell each other to feel better about what they do.
[ Parent ]- Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! by runderwo (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:22AM
- Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! by Alomex (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:36AM
- Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! by |
- Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! by Alomex (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @12:19PM
- Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! by Zarf (Score:2) Wednesday October 20 2004, @10:24PM
- Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! by Alomex (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @12:19PM
- Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! by |
- Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! by runderwo (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @01:50PM
- Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! by Alomex (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @02:01PM
- Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! by runderwo (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:10PM
- Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! by runderwo (Score:2) Thursday October 21 2004, @11:53PM
- 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
- Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! by Alomex (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @02:01PM
- Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! by Alomex (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:36AM
- Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! by runderwo (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:22AM
- 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
- Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! by Zarf (Score:2) Wednesday October 20 2004, @10:20PM
- Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! by Zarf (Score:2) Wednesday October 20 2004, @09:45PM
- Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! by spectecjr (Score:2) Wednesday October 20 2004, @10:47PM
- Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! by Zarf (Score:2) Thursday October 21 2004, @05:57AM
- Re:Reality Distortion Fields ON! by spectecjr (Score:2) Wednesday October 20 2004, @10:47PM
- Re:The REAL reason by dJOEK (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:31AM
- 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
- 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
- Re:MSIE was through this already. by Vo0k (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:50AM
- Re:MSIE was through this already. by XO (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:32AM
- Re:MSIE was through this already. by Vo0k (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:02AM
- Re:MSIE was through this already. by XO (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:33AM
- Re:MSIE was through this already. by Vo0k (Score:2) Wednesday October 20 2004, @01:53AM
- Re:MSIE was through this already. by XO (Score:2) Thursday October 21 2004, @06:34PM
- Re:MSIE was through this already. by XO (Score:2) Thursday October 21 2004, @09:40PM
- Re:MSIE was through this already. by Vo0k (Score:2) Friday October 22 2004, @02:08AM
- Re:MSIE was through this already. by XO (Score:2) Friday October 22 2004, @05:14PM
- Re:MSIE was through this already. by Vo0k (Score:2) Monday October 25 2004, @06:21AM
- Re:MSIE was through this already. by XO (Score:2) Monday October 25 2004, @03:01PM
- Re:MSIE was through this already. by Vo0k (Score:2) Wednesday October 20 2004, @01:53AM
- Re:MSIE was through this already. by XO (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:33AM
- Re:MSIE was through this already. by Vo0k (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:02AM
- Re:To crash or not to crash by julesh (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:24AM
- Re:To crash or not to crash by morzel (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @01:09PM
strategic point of view (Score:5, Interesting)
(http://www.solariscentral.org/)
It could be a coincidence, but the loose HTML support of IE led to a situation where some webmasters conclude that Netscape had poor HTML support. You can argue about standards all day long, but if one browser renders and another crashes or comes up blank there isn't much of a contest.
- Re:strategic point of view by shyster (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:26AM
- Re:strategic point of view by Tim Browse (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @04:53PM
- Re:strategic point of view by shyster (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:03PM
- Re:strategic point of view by Tim Browse (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @04:53PM
- Re:strategic point of view by strider44 (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:04AM
- Re:strategic point of view by drfuchs (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:12AM
- Re:strategic point of view by DunbarTheInept (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @03:00PM
- Re:strategic point of view by danila (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:21AM
- Re:strategic point of view by the pickle (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @04:32PM
- Re:strategic point of view by danila (Score:2) Wednesday October 20 2004, @03:31AM
- Re:strategic point of view by the pickle (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @04:32PM
- Re:strategic point of view by Reziac (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:22PM
- 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
- Re:Here's the bad code by Araneas (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:21AM
- 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
- Re:A clue about the browser development process? by hankwang (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:25AM
His examples do not really crash Firefox (Score:5, Interesting)
http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/mangleme/gallery/ [coredump.cx]
I opened all the pages in tabs in Firefox 0.10.1 under Windows 2000, and Firefox did not crash. It became somewhat unresponsive, but I could still select other tabs, minimise and maximise. I could not load new pages anymore.
Can someone else test this as well, please?
And can someone tell us whether this has security implications or not?
- Re:His examples do not really crash Firefox by XO (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:28AM
- Re:His examples do not really crash Firefox by l3v1 (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:01AM
- Re:His examples do not really crash Firefox by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:40AM
- Re:His examples do not really crash Firefox by kryptkpr (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @09:00AM
- Re:His examples do not really crash Firefox by NeoSkandranon (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @09:06AM
- Re:His examples do not really crash Firefox by kryptkpr (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @09:13AM
- Re:His examples do not really crash Firefox by NeoSkandranon (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:14AM
- Re:His examples do not really crash Firefox by kryptkpr (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @03:49PM
- Re:His examples do not really crash Firefox by NeoSkandranon (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:54PM
- Re:His examples do not really crash Firefox by kryptkpr (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @09:13AM
- Re:His examples do not really crash Firefox by NeoSkandranon (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @09:06AM
- Re:His examples do not really crash Firefox by kryptkpr (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @09:00AM
- 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
- Re:His examples do not really crash Firefox by TakaIta (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:17AM
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Re:His examples do not really crash Firefox (Score:5, Informative)
by SmilingBoy (686281) on Tuesday October 19 2004, @09:04AM (#10564562)Weird! I checked this in detail again. It seems that there is a difference whether other Firefox Windows with several tabs are open or not. If I have other open windows and tabs (like I normally have when surfing around), mozilla_die1 just slows down the computer, but you can actually close the tab again and you are back to normal. mozilla_die2 also slows down the computer, you can select other tabs, but you can't close the offending tab or load new pages in other tabs.If I only open mozilla_die 1 or 2 in a single tab in a single window and no other tabs are open, Firefox crashes immediately.
mozilla_die3 never crashes Firefox.
[ Parent ]
-
- Re:His examples do not really crash Firefox by noselasd (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:20AM
- Konqueror works fine by cs668 (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:25AM
- Don't try the Lynx one! by ibentmywookie (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:26AM
- Re:Don't try the Lynx one! by Lisandro (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @12:14PM
- 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
- Re:His examples do not really crash Firefox by rishistar (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @09:04AM
- Re:His examples do not really crash Firefox by Lisandro (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @12:10PM
- 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
- Re:Standard Testing by shaka (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:23AM
Who's Who (Score:5, Informative)
Larry Osterman -- former Microsoft guy; someone forwarded him a post to Bugtraq.
Michael Zalewski -- absurdly brilliant [coredump.cx] security engineer out of Poland. Did the pioneering work on visualizing [wox.org] randomness [coredump.cx] of network stacks, passively identifying operating systems [coredump.cx] on networks, and way way more.
Nothing bad against Larry. But this is all Zalewski
--Dan
- Re:Who's Who by spectecjr (Score:2) Thursday October 21 2004, @01:56AM
- 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
- Re:generated html by BenjyD (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:08AM
- Re:generated html by XO (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:36AM
- 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
IE Crashes On Valid HTML! (Score:5, Informative)
(http://www.diplo.co.uk/)
Nevermind using random garbage to crash a browser, you can make IE6 crash with perfectly valid strict HTML.
Try this page [nildram.co.uk] in IE6 and then hover your pointer over the link. Crash!!!
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Re:IE Crashes On Valid HTML! (Score:5, Informative)
by Grey Ninja (739021) <matter.grey@nospam.gmail.com> on Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:04AM (#10563651)
(http://grey.drunkencoders.com/ | Last Journal: Wednesday September 06 2006, @02:54AM)Don't forget this one either. [neilturner.me.uk] (Mind you, this one has been fixed in XP SP2)[ Parent ]- Re:IE Crashes On Valid HTML! by julesh (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:16AM
- Re:IE Crashes On Valid HTML! by julesh (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:57AM
- Re:IE Crashes On Valid HTML! by mcsmurf (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:20AM
- 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
- 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
- Re:IE Crashes On Valid HTML! by NoMercy (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:51AM
- Re:IE Crashes On Valid HTML! by Midnight Thunder (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @09:55AM
- Re:IE Crashes On Valid HTML! by jamesl (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:27AM
- Re:IE Crashes On Valid HTML! by farlukar (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:54AM
- Re:IE Crashes On Valid HTML! by Reziac (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:31PM
- Re:results of testing mozilla on linux- NO CRASHES by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:14AM
- Re:results of testing mozilla on linux- NO CRASHES by fozzmeister (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:47AM
- Re:results of testing mozilla on linux- NO CRASHES by quadfour (Score:1) Wednesday October 20 2004, @12:19AM
There is actually some truth to the matter (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://grinder.perlmonk.org/)
Case in point.
Last week I wrote some Perl to process an mbox mail folder. I just wanted a quick and dirty way to view its contents in a web page. A couple of CPAN modules and a few dozen lines of code and thing was done. Then I started to get fancy and dealing with stuff like embedded MIME-encoded GIF images. This was pretty simple to do, but I made a mistake. Once I had the decoded GIF data lying around, I wrote it to the HTML file of the current e-mail message, rather than writing it to a seperate file and writting <img src="foo.gif"> in the HTML file.
I was viewing the results with Firefox 0.10.1. When it got to a message with an embedded GIF, with a big slodge of GIF binary data sitting in the middle of the page, Firefox either just sat there spinning its hourglass, or crashed and burned.
Then I looked at the same file with IE, and the GIF image showed up. I was puzzled for a while until I noticed that in the directory where I had created the file, no GIF files had been created. It is of course arguable that IE should not have attempted to render the GIF image from the binary data sitting in the middle of the page, but it did so without complaint. Not rendering it would also be acceptable.
Firefox, on the other hand, has a number of better alternatives to crashing or hanging. Should it display gibberish (like when you forget to set up your bz2 association correctly) or nothing, or the image? I don't know, and don't particularly care about which course of action is taken. Anything is better than crashing, especially when IE doesn't.
Anyway, I fixed the Perl code, and all is well.
The End
- Is Arbitrarily Rendering GIF's a Vulnerability? by Inhibit (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:50AM
- Have you reported your problem? by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:58AM
- Re:There is actually some truth to the matter by Brummund (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @12:46PM
- Re:There is actually some truth to the matter by Hockney Twang (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @02:01PM
- Re:No problems on Firefox 0.10.1 by aldragon (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:39AM
Not a Security Issue, but a conceptual concern (Score:3, Insightful)
To beat the dead horse of the car analogy, if my car doesn't start, it may be the entire electrical system, or maybe my battery is just dead. The moral is don't try to make a mountain out of a mole hill.
Meanwhile, I absolutely despise the fact that IE does handle a lot of 'bad' code. This is a side effect of the IE monopoly on the browsing world. We're not talking about it handling variables that arent declared before they are used or sumsuch. We're talking about code which *should* be causing errors. Since they don't cause errors most of the time (or are hidden from the user) and most web authors only test with IE, there is a massive amount of bad code on the net which is never fixed.
Now I'm glad that the author has found these crashing bugs in the other browsers. This obviously needs fixing, and I'm glad IE is at least stable when it encounters malformed code, but more error reporting needs to be done to the user on all browsers.
Summary:Good review, brings up great points, kudo's to MS for stability. Now everyone go back to work on your browsers and add blatant *THIS WEBSITE AUTHOR DOES NOT WRITE PROPER CODE* dialogs to all your error messages. It's the web author's fault, it's time we told them so.
- Re:Not a Security Issue, but a conceptual concern by Peyna (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:15AM
- Re:doh? by iapetus (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:00AM
- Re:In other news.. by rjshields (Score:1) Wednesday October 20 2004, @05:56AM
- 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
- Re:That's odd... by blueforce (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:29AM
- Re:That's odd... by jridley (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:33AM
- Re:That's odd... by blueforce (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:59AM
- Re:That's odd... by jridley (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:33AM
handling malformed data is a pretty bad idea ... (Score:5, Insightful)
... and here's why.
With correct data (in this case, HTML), there is a specified action that is "correct". In other words, a correctly marked up table will get layed out, according to the W3C rules for laying out tables. A paragraph will get formatted as a a paragraph, etc.
With malformed markup, the "correct" thing to do is indeterminate. If every browser just takes its best guess, they will all diverge, and the behavior is wildly unpredictable. Even from version to version of the same browser, the "best guess" will change.
"So? You've just described the web!" Well, exactly, but it could have been avoided. Bad markup shouldn't render. It ain't rocket science to do (or generate, though that can be a harder problem) correct markup. If you had do it to get your pages viewed, you would. Ultimately, it wouldn't cost anymore, and would actually cost less (measure twice, cut once).
Of course, what I just wrote only really applies in a heterogenous environment
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Re:handling malformed data is a pretty bad idea .. (Score:4, Insightful)
by hedge_death_shootout (681628) <stalin@linuxmai[ ]rg ['l.o' in gap]> on Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:40AM (#10563878)HTML is out there, and millions of malformed pages exist. Most of this is a result of mistakes by authors, but some of it is a result of the moving target that HTML has presented in the past.
While your argument is attractive in principal, in practice it's misguided. The horse has bolted. in 2004, no-one would use a browser that didnt work with a huge proportion of the web's content. This is an area where pragmatism is required.
And to respond to the ubiquitous MS-bash, let's step back and remind ourselves that this /. story is also about how various browsers, including the saintly Firefox, can be made to *crash* given certain input. Just thought that should get a mention :)
(And BTW, I speak as a Firefox user)[ Parent ] - Re:handling malformed data is a pretty bad idea .. by oojah (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:51AM
- Re:handling malformed data is a pretty bad idea .. by smoking2000 (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:00AM
- Re:handling malformed data is a pretty bad idea .. by tepples (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:03AM
- 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
- Re:handling malformed data is a pretty bad idea .. by Tim C (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:13AM
- Re:handling malformed data is a pretty bad idea .. by StrawberryFrog (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:21AM
- Re:handling malformed data is a pretty bad idea .. by EchoMirage (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @09:51AM
- Re:handling malformed data is a pretty bad idea .. by tepples (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:13AM
- Re:handling malformed data is a pretty bad idea .. by Finuvir (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:11AM
- But it shouldn't crash out, either! by EnglishTim (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:22AM
- Re:handling malformed data is a pretty bad idea .. by drew (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:42AM
- Re:handling malformed data is a pretty bad idea .. by danila (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:27AM
- 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
- Re:Bugzilla by rjw57 (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:22AM
- Re:Bugzilla by Plutor (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:46AM
maybe its a fluke.. (Score:3, Interesting)
You'll also notice none of this random code tests activex security either, or many of the MS extensions which "enchance" security either.. So I think the tests should be taken more with a grain of salt.. Also while he did say null dereferences, its potentially due to all the same 1 or two flaws, and may not be exploitable at all..
Take this with a grain of salt I'd say, because when you check the tags being tested, there aren't a great amount..
- Re:maybe its a fluke.. by iapetus (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:58AM
- Re:Borrring... by Blitzenn (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:10AM
- Re:Borrring... by PhraudulentOne (Score:1) Thursday October 28 2004, @07:19AM
- Re:w3c validator by Trevin (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @09:47AM
Poll: WHO has experienced crashes? (Score:3, Informative)
So can those people who have tested his code write
- used browser and version number
- OS (exact)
- result
PS: I'm here at work on Mac OS 9 and all browsers are pretty old, so I don't write anything...
- Re:Poll: WHO has experienced crashes? by lahvak (Score:1) Wednesday October 20 2004, @03:29AM
- Re:Poll: WHO has experienced crashes? by The Raven (Score:2) Wednesday October 20 2004, @01:39PM
- 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
Dumb developer question (Score:5, Interesting)
A tool like this would let the average wanna be contributer find a reproducable bugs and try to fix them. Which brings me to my dumb question: Is the Mozilla gecko engine more easily built/tested than the whole of Firefox? I love FF, and wouldn't mind throwing some cycles at improving it, but the entire build process is a bit more than I really want to take on... If I could just build and unit-test the failing component I'd be more likely to try.
Anyone have pointers beyond the hacking section at MozillaZine?
- Re:Dumb developer question by David Gerard (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:40AM
- Re:Dumb developer question by David Gerard (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:42AM
- Re:Dumb developer question by Anonymous Coward (Score:3) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:45AM
- Re:What are we saying here? by tommck (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:52AM
- Re:What are we saying here? by The1Genius (Score:1) Friday October 29 2004, @12:26PM
- 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
- Re:His examples don't work (crash browser) by BenjyD (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:51AM
OSS does not automatically mean secure (Score:5, Informative)
(Last Journal: Saturday January 06 2007, @01:13AM)
Mozilla is just as sucky security-wise as the old non-mozilla Netscape (3.x 4.x). Whether it is OSS or not doesn't make it secure/insecure, it's the programmers that count. Look at Sendmail and Bind (and many other ISC software), security problems year after year for many years. Look at PHPNuke - security problems month after month for years. Look at OpenSSL and OpenSSH and Apache 2.x - not very good track records. Compare with Postfix and qmail, djbdns.
Most programmers should stick to writing their programs in languages where the equivalent of "spelling and grammar" errors don't cause execution of arbitrary attacker-code. Sure after a while some writers learn how to spell and their grammar improves but it sometimes takes years. For security you need _perfection_ in critical areas, and you need to be able to identify and isolate the critical areas _perfectly_ in your architecture.
To the ignorant people who don't get it. Crashing is bad. A crash occurs when the (browser) process write/read data from areas where it shouldn't be touching, or tries to execute code where it shouldn't be executing. This often occurs when the process somehow mistakenly executes _data_ supplied by the attacker/bug finder, or returns to addresses supplied by the attacker...
This sort of thing is what allows people to take over your browser, and screw up your data (and possibly take over your computer if you run the browser using an account with too many privileges).
So while the FireFox people get their code up to scratch maybe people should reconsider IE - IE isn't so dangerous when configured correctly. Unfortunately it's not that simple to do that.
To make even unpatched IE browsers invulnerable to 95% of the IE problems just turn off Active Scripting and ActiveX for all zones except very trusted zones which will never have malicious data. Since I don't trust Microsoft's trusted zone (XP has *.microsoft.com as trusted even though it doesn't show up in the menus), I create a custom zone and make that MY trusted zone.
By all zones I mean you must turn those stuff off for the My Computer zone as well - but that screws up Windows Explorer in the default view mode (which is unsafe anyway).
For more info read this: <a href="http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?k
To make the My Computer zone visible change:
(for computer wide policy)
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Wi
To: 0x00000001
(for just a particular user)
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windo
To: 0x00000001
If you don't want to edit the registry and make the My Computer zone visible, you can still control the My Computer Zone settings from the group policy editor (gpedit.msc) or the active directory policy editor.
You just have to know some Microsoft stuff. But hey, securing an OSS O/S and _keeping_ it secure (esp when u need to run lots of 3rd party software) also requires some in-depth knowledge.
- Re:Why wasn't this tested? by BrianHursey (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:26AM
- Re:Why wasn't this tested? by BrianHursey (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:44AM
- Re:Why wasn't this tested? by DashEvil (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @12:04PM
- 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
- 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
- Re:Why wasn't this tested? by BrianHursey (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:44AM
- 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
- Re:Anyone switching to IE now here? by Thrymm (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:12AM
- Re:Anyone switching to IE now here? by LO0G (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @05:21PM
this could be bad (Score:3, Insightful)
In other words, the people who have been defending IE (and Microsoft in general) by saying "your Mozillas and Operas have been safe from security problems only because nobody uses them" will not only have a field day, but now the clock is ticking. There's proof that there are promising means of attack against these browsers. Someone is surely going to research this. I really hope the good guys developing these browsers rise to the challenge and tighten up the code before we (the people who have been recommending them for years) start losing credibility. I'm inspired to look into helping them out.
Sorry if this seems incoherent, I keep getting interrupted as I type this. Stupid work...
- Re:this could be bad by HolyCoitus (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:00PM
- Didn't work for me... by conebrid (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @02:50PM
I love random input (Score:3, Interesting)
- Re:I love random input by ggeens (Score:2) Wednesday October 20 2004, @08:23AM
IE Good for Clients, Bad for Developers (Score:3, Insightful)
It's a real pain in the neck for IE to not try to show what's actually there because when I first looked at the page in IE I assumed that I just wasn't getting what I wanted from the database since my dropdown was empty. In reality it wasn't empty, IE just didn't want to show me 1000 breakspaces as an option in my dropdown which is bad from a developer's standpoint. However, masking and hiding bad code and data is something that I absolutely want a browser to do when the application is out in production being used by my clients.
The bottom line is you should always develop your web applications with a browser like Mozilla that is going to catch your mistakes but once your application is out the door it's better for clients to be using a broswer that will hide any mistakes you didn't catch!
Did IE really not crash? (Score:4, Interesting)
When saying that Microsoft Internet Explorer didn't crash, does he mean that the window never went away, or that the program iexplore.exe stayed running? I can't prove it, but I suspect that the "IE" window would survive a crash of the rendering engine, because the window is actually provided by explorer.exe, which is the desktop manager.
I also suspect that several of the open source browsers could defend themselves against this kind of crash within a day or two, simply be using a two process model. Personally, I would rather they did not! (I want to see it fail, otherwise I would not know something was wrong.)
- Re:Did IE really not crash? by The Bungi (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @05:58PM
- Re:Did IE really not crash? by divad27182 (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:06PM
- Re:Did IE really not crash? by The Bungi (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:17PM
- Re:Did IE really not crash? by m_pll (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:49PM
- Re:Did IE really not crash? by divad27182 (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:06PM
Meanwhile... (Score:3, Interesting)
100% valid CSS and XHTML continues [tudelft.nl] to crash IE.
Lynx gallery example (Score:3, Interesting)
(Last Journal: Thursday February 17 2005, @12:11PM)
However, I was not able to crash lynx with the example. It takes a while to render the page, but it renders it just fine (considering it is actually invalid HTML). Perhaps it depends on the amount of memory you have.
If I remember correctly, while ago there were rumors being circulated that IE is specifically designed to deal well with invalid HTML. Lot of people were of the oppinion that it is really bad, and that invalid HTML code should be rejected. Thay said IE basically encouraged sloppy web design.
Re:This is known (Score:5, Insightful)
Great, but then it also encourages people to write bad code - see all that code with broken tables and a million tags that remain unclosed?
You're confusing two seperate things here:
- Broken HTML which doesn't render properly.
- Broken HTML that causes corruptions, crashes and the potential for security issues.
This guy has been testing for (2) and not (1). Bad HTML should never cause crashes, memory corruption and buffer overflows. Period.
Finally, you can't go blaming the users for bad input. One of the golden rules of software design is that all software should either reject or handle gracefully bad input. Crashing is not graceful.
- Re:This is known by metlin (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:41AM
- Re:This is known by idlethought (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:53AM
-
Re:This is known (Score:5, Insightful)
by StrawberryFrog (67065) on Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:53AM (#10563572)
(http://www.livejournal.com/users/strawberryfrog/ | Last Journal: Wednesday April 27 2005, @06:28AM)No. I don't care how bad the input is, if my program reads the input and throws an access violation, then it is my job to fix my program, test the input more, assume less about it or whatever, until my program does something more sensible and less dangerous with the input - like giving up with an error message or even an assertion failure.
I repeat: code that crashes with a null pointer error is wrong. End of story.[ Parent ]- Re:This is known by Anonymous Brave Guy (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:16AM
- It's ALWAYS that simple by Rogerborg (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:39AM
- Re:It's ALWAYS that simple by tepples (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:20AM
- Re:It's ALWAYS that simple by The Conductor (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @12:36PM
- 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
- Re:This is known by StrawberryFrog (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @08:23AM
- It's ALWAYS that simple by Rogerborg (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:39AM
- Re:This is known by Pieroxy (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @10:15AM
- Re:This is known by Anonymous Brave Guy (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:16AM
- Re:This is known by BrianHursey (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:53AM
- Re:This is known by pete_norm (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:38AM
- Re:This is known by mdfst13 (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @02:26PM
- 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
- Re:This is known by ClosedSource (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:51AM
- Re:This is known by metlin (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:59AM
- Re:This is known by ClosedSource (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:19AM
- Crashing on Bad Input != Error Handling by billstewart (Score:2) Thursday October 21 2004, @06:56PM
- Re:Crashing on Bad Input != Error Handling by ClosedSource (Score:2) Friday October 22 2004, @01:55AM
- Crashing on Bad Input != Error Handling by billstewart (Score:2) Thursday October 21 2004, @06:56PM
- Re:This is known by ClosedSource (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:19AM
- Re:This is known by Stephan Schulz (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @11:14AM
- Re:This is known by ClosedSource (Score:2) Thursday October 21 2004, @12:35AM
- Re:This is known by metlin (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @06:59AM
Re:Conspiracy Theory time... (Score:4, Informative)
RTFA. Larry didn't find the broken HTML, he just referenced an article [securityfocus.com] which did.
- You don't get it... by JudicatorX (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:00AM
Re:What about VALID html? (Score:5, Informative)
(http://libtom.org/)
Second, "crashing when invalid" as you and many others are alluding to is NOT a good idea. What if you had another tab open with email/urls/info you needed?
What if other software took this route? Invalid operands to open()? Time to crash. Invalid socket used in send()? Time to crash. Segfault in application? Kill the kernel processes!
It's a problem, it has to be fixed and there aren't two ways about it.
Tom
- 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
Re:so? (Score:5, Interesting)
(Last Journal: Thursday January 13 2005, @12:25PM)
- So what? I have never had a problem with my Firefox crashing (ever). Sure, if you try to make something crash, it eventually will. Considering how much security holes IE has, IE could be the missing link, and I still wouldnt use it.
As I see it the major problem that Mozilla/Firefox has is the vast majority of those using it (and most definitely the vast majority bothering to report bugs/crashes) are techies. Why is that a problem? Well we probably don't spend our time to going to "silly" E-card sites and joke sites that use bad flash/html. Sure we can dismiss those sites as not important, because to us they aren't, but to a large portion of the average users out there they're one of the most important things they do in a browser because to them they're fun.
So I'm betting Mozilla/Firefox actually crashes regularly on non-techies simply because they visit sites that most techies don't bother to test the browser on.
- Re:Is this for real? by Grey Ninja (Score:2) Tuesday October 19 2004, @07:32AM
Test your code at http://validator.w3.org/ (Score:3, Informative)
(http://millahtime.blogspot.com/ | Last Journal: Friday July 15 2005, @01:00PM)
- Re:Test your code at http://validator.w3.org/ by pipacs (Score:1) Tuesday October 19 2004, @01:26PM
An important security sidenote (Score:4, Insightful)
So many of these "bugs" in Mozilla, Opera, Lynx, and Links are likely security holes as well.
It is interesting, then, to see that Internet Explorer did so well on this, with its notoriously bad history [trustworthycomputing.com] on security. My first instinct would be that the HTML parsing engine in Internet Explorer was written by a different team of programmers than worked on the rest of the software, and they used proper programming techniques (such as RAII [google.com] in C++, or perhaps used one of their
Let's hope that all these bugs are taken care of in the other browsers quickly before the black hats find ways to make use of them.
Re:So what is "random" here? (Score:5, Funny)
(http://ktd.sytes.net/ | Last Journal: Thursday April 01 2004, @04:23PM)
This "random" test is dangerously incomplete. (Score:4, Insightful)
Given the arbitrary limits on this test, it appears to be designed specifically to make IE look better than its competitors and prove some point rather than be an objective investigation. It is well known that the most serious problems in IE are with scripting and CSS support being unstable, broken or incomplete. A similar test should be conducted of IE should be done with these included. Kudos to the author of the bugtraq entry for doing this kind of testing, but I don't think the editorial commentary regarding the amount of testing of these browsers or their attention to security is warranted or productive.
The author freely admits he did not seriously analyse the source code for the root cause of these crashes (and in the case of IE, he cannot do so even if he wanted to--but that doesn't stop him from proclaiming it as superior quality). He also provides no evidence that these bugs compromise security in any way beyond consuming system resources, so it was not exactly appropriate to attack their security abilities without further study.
As to the jibe about lack of testing...Many of these alternatives are open source projects, not yet at official 1.0 release yet people! Being open source, the whole point of exposure is to get many eyes looking at the code, and get people involved in improving the code. He seems to know a great deal about programming so I suggest he volunteer some of his spare time to the Mozilla project to make things right, if he is indeed THAT concerned about the issue.
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:5, Interesting)
My understanding of the SP2 compilation changes is that existing buffer-overflows still exist and will still cause the program to crash. The difference is that overflows which previously allowed the attacker to execute arbitrary machine code will instead crash before the code is executed.
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:5, Interesting)
Almost, it's more like they will crash and there is a near zero chance of the code being executed even by another running process because the area has been flagged as non-executable and the cpu will refuse to run anything found in that memory space.
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:4, Interesting)
(http://chronos-tachyon.net/)
The non-executable flagging (Data Execution Prevention in MS parlance) only applies when Windows is running on an architecture that supports it, which is pretty much only AMD64 at this point. They use stuff like stack canaries to protect x86, which makes an attack harder but not impossible.
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:5, Interesting)
(http://chronos-tachyon.net/)
No, this is the stack canary in action. To emulate per-page NX on a processor without it, Windows would have to single-step all your programs, making it slower than VMware. (VMware doesn't even emulate at that level of detail.)
(Technically, it could get by without single-stepping: it could mark your NX pages no-read, then handle the page fault by checking the instruction at the fault address, emulating a MOV or similar instruction but killing the program on a RET or similar. However, that's horrendously slow, since each page fault involves two context switches (one into ring 0, one back to ring 3), which would easily slow your program by 100-fold. Your 3GHz computer would effectively max out at 300MHz.)
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:4, Interesting)
(http://chronos-tachyon.net/)
I forgot to point out that you can prove this by compiling your program with an older or non-MS compiler. Write up a test C program, then compile it with Cygwin or MinGW GCC, and run it on an XP SP2 system running on a plain x86 processor. It should still overflow normally. Switch to Microsoft's compiler, and it should raise an error instead.
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:5, Informative)
(http://chronos-tachyon.net/)
A stack canary is a form of protection against stack overflows. And yes, the idea is named after the canaries used in coal mines. To put it in simple terms, a normal stack during a function call might look like this:
When the buffer is overflowed, the attacker fills it with more data than it can hold. The extra data first fills the saved registers, then overwrites the return address. The attacker can simply point the return address back into the buffer, or find more diabolical means ("return into libc", a few others), to run his own code.
If a recent OS (first Linux, now Windows) is running on, say, an AMD64 system, then the entire stack is flagged with the NX (no execute) bit. If the attacker uses the normal technique of returning into the buffer, the processor will halt the program because it's trying to treat data as code without asking first. (This doesn't protect against return into libc attacks.)
However, on ordinary x86 processors like Pentium 4 or Athlon XP, there is no NX bit. So, Microsoft altered their compiler to insert stack canaries into every function. The previous stack diagram is changed to something similar to this:
Ideally, the canaries are chosen randomly each time a function is called. However, this is too slow in practice, since functions get called *a lot*, so a program will randomly choose a single canary number once at startup and reuse it.
Now the attacker can still overflow the buffer, but this time he has to overwrite the canary. If he already knows the canary, or guesses it correctly, everything works the same as in the case of an unprotected overflow. However, if he guesses wrong, the canary kicks in. To maintain the canary, there is some code inserted by the compiler at the start and end of every function. The start code inserts the canary into the stack, and the end code checks that the canary has not changed. If the canary changed, an error is triggered, and the program is halted before the function ever returns. This prevents the attacker's code from running if he doesn't know the canary number.
There are still some scenarios that aren't protected by a stack canary, but it is rather effective overall, and actually protects against a few scenarios that the NX bit doesn't cover. It doesn't help protect against heap overflows, though, although there's no reason heap canaries can't be used also. (The heap is a lot harder to explain than the stack, but a lot of programs put some or all of their buffers in heap memory instead, and the heap can be attacked as well.)
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:4, Informative)
They can intentionally, just not accidentially.
ReadProcessMemory
WriteProcessMemory
CreateRe
(NX bit works only at AMD64 processors and above last time I checked)
Celeron D is now shipping with NX enabled. I don't know whether XP will take advantage of it.
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:4, Interesting)
It was an 11 byte html file which made IE go BOOOOOOOOM. I aptly named it "crashme.htm".
It remains on my desktop as a reminder of MS crap
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:5, Funny)
(http://wolf.project-w.com)
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:5, Interesting)
(http://www.pyoro.com/)
Not likely, since IE was created ages before
As for the malformed HTML, it didn't crash my firefox, but I'll try again a couple of times just in case
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:5, Informative)
(http://www.hoeg.com/)
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:5, Funny)
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:5, Insightful)
I's say the same about outlook express. Most security holes in OE were due to bad "glue" between components. And if I'm not mistaken, most holes in IE are also caused by bad integration.
It sure looks like the expert programmers create components which are then bolted together by an army of "learn programming in 24 hours" drones.
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:5, Interesting)
(http://google.com/ | Last Journal: Wednesday September 12 2001, @10:41PM)
But that *IS* the point of Agile development, to ensure that every step of the way things are working toghether smoothly. The basic point is regardless of the paradigm IE is a big project with many different components requiring a high degree of integration. A key problem with many different components that are highly integrated is the fact that these components tend to "trust" each other to much. Meaning they just assume this component is friendly. If all integrated components were a little less trusting I think software as large and as complex as IE could be more secure.
This is just a guess, I don't know much about internal Microsoft culture. I have however seen security problems of this scale in projects I have cleaned up and worked on and the problems stem from the exact problems I describe. So its reasonable to assume that somewhere along the way MS has made the same mistakes everyone else does in the software world. Just because they have LOTS of smart people doesn't mean they are any better at managing software processes. Just look at what they are doing with the LongHorn requirements
Jeremy
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:5, Interesting)
The good news is that now people are required to know Writing Secure Code [microsoft.com], and (more recently) Threat Modelling [microsoft.com] by heart. I can tell you first hand those approaches have been adopted company wide. While Threat Modelling can be time consuming, I've personally found possible issues in code that we wouldn't have noticed without it. Plus we got other people outside our department looking at our code. All in all this is the best approach we could be taking. Microsoft is not sitting on it's ass about this issue.
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:5, Interesting)
And this shift is working. The trend per-product is a significant reduction in security vulnerabilities. That is not to say there aren't any, that would be impossible, but if you look at the vulnerability graph for, say, Win2k Server since it's release, and win2k3 Server since it's release, there is a significant drop in the amount of vulnerabilities that are coming in since the release of the product. Furthermore, a large part of the vulnerabilities are found from within the company. The same thing can be said for most products, including IE, IIS, Office, etc... We're getting there....
Now, go off and run as LUA [asp.net], and nip this stupid spyware problem in the bud.
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://erik.hollensbe.org/blog/)
If you can get a program to write past the end of it's allocated memory segment, you can overwrite all sorts of fun stuff with things like shellcode and anything else you want to throw in the executable stack.
The program (I read the SF post yesterday) generates standard things that would confuse a program in HTML - Null (ASCII 0) characters, overly large integers (Opera, IIRC, brought his system to a halt with a giant colspan="" element), things that need to be checked pre-emptively.
Regardless of his "bias", this is a problem. In fact, sometimes the people with the most to gain do a great job giving the others the opportunity to gain instead. Either way, he just upped the bar for browser security, which benefits us all.
Don't just blow him off.
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:5, Interesting)
(http://erik.hollensbe.org/blog/)
Are you familiar with XSS attacks? As a guy who writes web backends, I am. As a result, I have to make sure that every bit of content that comes to me and is subsequently displayed (which can get fun, especially if you have a database with 20M customers before you get started) needs to have no HTML tags, or even worse, allowable HTML tags. This can get very slow when processing a lot of content. If you have a templating language which uses different tag endings than an HTML tag, you've got another set of content to scan for. This is the reason things like mod_security were invented. Thing about a bulletin board or a "product review" system and how much content is availble to be sent straight to the database by one person and echoed right back to another.
SQL injection. While good database API's solve this, some systems don't (ahem... PHP's raw API). This is easily solved by something like DBI or PEAR's DB abstraction layer (which the name of escapes me), but once you're up to your knees in mud, it becomes a whole new nightmare. With the new mysql GRANT vulnerability (especially since, last I checked, mysql doesn't support binding at the client API level), SQL injection becomes something that can not only effect your live app, but something much more dire indeed. I won't even get into sql procedures that perform admin tasks.
The fact that IE passes a test, while other's don't, that it was made to pass, that says somethign positive about IE's security, and is not to be blown off. After all, I can inject some of that "wonderful" content right here and it might crash your browser, because there's nothing stopping me from doing it in slashdot's code. If I had the fingernail clipping of that guy's knowledge, I might be able to do something worse.
Of course, if you were running IE, you wouldn't have that problem. Do you understand now?
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:4, Insightful)
No, I disagree with that. It is reasonable to blow off that IE passes its own test cases. What is not reasonable is to blow off that other browsers do not.
IE still includes some basic security flaws due to faulty design. For example, there is phishing attack that displays http://www.bankname.com/ on mouseover but goes to http://ip.nu.mb.er on click. This is a security flaw in IE that should not exist (the same routine should be used to determine the URL for both mouseover and on click). Incidentally, this flaw does not exist in FireFox.
More relevant test cases are always good. New versions of Firefox, et. al. should be able to handle these test cases as well as those that they handle now that IE does not.
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://slashdot.org/)
Pretty simple stuff, really.
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:5, Insightful)
But the other browsers not only didn't catch it, they actually crashed when parsing it. I'm all for compatibility and standards compliance where possible, but a crash/potential security hole is far more serious an issue than letting through some sloppy HTML. (Besides which, as a user, I find it infuriating that Mozilla/Firefox are so stuck up on perfectly standard HTML that they just don't work with some web sites that are perfectly usable in IE anyway.)
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:5, Informative)
You might make sure that the sites you're having trouble with in Firefox are actually providing the same data they're giving IE before you assume it's a problem with the browser.
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:5, Insightful)
(Last Journal: Monday November 28 2005, @12:21PM)
As a user, I find it infuriating that people write non-standard compliant HTML that only works in one proprietary browser.
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:5, Insightful)
*Your* first lesson in computer security is, and write this a thousand time: *crashing* on malicious code is *BAD*, whereas *recovering* from the situation and responding with an *error message* is *GOOD*.
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:5, Informative)
Once you've lost control of your program, all bets are off. The only difference between crashing and taking control is exactly WHAT bad data you feed into the program. These browsers simply crashed because RANDOM data was being fed in. That random data could be changed to carefully-crafted executable code, and BAM, your harmless "crash" is a security exploit.
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:4, Informative)
It's true that *catching* bad input and deliberately aborting (hopefully with a somewhat reasonable error message) is good. According to the article, that's not what's going on... the browsers are NOT checking input, e.g. scanning into uninitialized buffer areas because they aren't finding an expected end marker, or a length is incorrect. So parent is exactly right... that kind of "buffer overrun" bug is exactly what can be exploited.
Be liberal in what you accept... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://www.sergiocarvalho.com/)
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://iki.fi/wheany/ | Last Journal: Monday July 03 2006, @01:48PM)
Crashes are always considered bugs.
Re:An important security sidenote (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://j.bruce.home.mindspring.com)
Let's turn it around... if it was IE that was crashing on bad HTML, and the other browsers simply ignored it, would you be making the same argument? IMO, the slashdot headline would then be "IE Crashes on simple malformed HTML."
How is it a bad thing when other browsers refuses to read that code. Isn't that a good thing? A good example is a compiler most compilers catch overflows and don't allow you to finish compiling.
NO, no, no, no!! It is a BAD thing, because at the very minimum it's a sign of non-existent exception handling. You should never get a runtime error from bad input. In some cases, you create an infinite loop-- is there any excuse for that?
And considering the nature of the crashes (one of the links caused Firefox 1.0PR to die with a windows memory error, shutting down ALL instances of firefox) this means that some memory was accessed that shouldn't have been, which means that you could conceivably put executable code into memory simply by constructing the right "invalid" HTML. Lo and behold, you now have a buffer overflow exploit for Firefox. And we're telling all the IE users on Windows to switch to Firefox!
I'm a firefox user, and there's no way I'm switching back to IE, but this MUST be fixed. Now that it's well known, I'm sure there will be a patch for Firefox fairly soon, though I have a feeling the code changes will be somewhat involved.