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FTC Targets Massive Car Warranty Robocall Scheme
Posted by
Soulskill
on Fri May 15, 2009 09:02 PM
from the hopefully-with-bombs dept.
from the hopefully-with-bombs dept.
coondoggie writes "Robocalls are a scourge, and the Federal Trade Commission today took action against one outfit by asking a federal court to shut down companies that have been bombarding consumers with hundreds of millions of allegedly deceptive robocalls in an effort to sell vehicle service contracts. According to the FTC, the robocalls have prompted tens of thousands of complaints from consumers who are either on the Do Not Call Registry or asked not to be called. Five telephone numbers associated with the defendants have generated a total of 30,000 Do Not Call complaints. Consumers received the robocalls at home, work, and on their cell phones, sometimes several times in one day. Businesses, government offices and even 911 dispatchers also have been subjected to the calls, the FTC said."
Reader powerlord points out that another such company, not named in the FTC filing, raised the ire of thousands of internet-goers, who struck back by rickrolling the company's voice mail and digging up personal information on the company's president.
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How about.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:How about.... (Score:5, Insightful)
How about making it so all telemarketers have to register a certain caller ID that say would be (C)*insert name of company here*, then it would be trivial to block all corporate calls. Thus making it easy to have a caller ID filter to purchase to block all telemarketer calls. This would be a lot easier than the do not call list, more effective and wouldn't censor anyone.
These people are already blatantly ignoring the Do Not Call list. Why would they bother to give a legitimate caller ID string?
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
A simple string would take all excuses away and make it simpler for the FTC to do its job.
Re:How about.... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:How about.... (Score:5, Funny)
Your solution requires warrants.
My solution requires air strikes.
Parent
Re:How about.... (Score:4, Interesting)
If this was coupled with the phone company appending the incoming Caller ID to your call record then it would be easy to enforce.
Say you get a telemarketing call with a bogus caller ID, you simply request the phone company send you that information for that time and date and with that you can prove that the company was violating this law (since it would be a matter of record). They would have the originating phone number + the ID they used on a piece of paper you can then forward to the necessary parties.
Parent
Re:How about.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
To elaborate on what the AC posted. The phone company knows who makes calls, but the end user doesn't. The phone company just doesn't care and won't respond to complaints unless they are forced to by the police or government. The police won't get involved unless they get complaints from the phone company. The government won't get involved unless...
Notice a trend here? These have been my personal anecdotal experiences anyways.
Exactly. (Score:5, Insightful)
The phone company should care, but does not. They get paid per usage and they simply do not care what the usage is.
All the circuits are theirs - they know who every single line belongs to. They sure don't miss a beat when it's time to send out the bills, do they? This number made these calls, and here's your bill. They have this information in their database - it's necessary for billing. They're great at that part, aren't they?
But they'll turn a blind eye when someone dials out from 111-222-3333 claiming to be 333-222-1111. No problems there sir, just so long as you pay your bill. Fucking jerks.
The only reason someone would spoof their caller id is if they are up to no good. These fucking robodialers do exactly that because they know they're annoying people. They know it, or they'd be more up front about what they're doing. Listening to that smarmy asshole at Auto One trying to justify his business practices is disgusting. If you're so on the up-and-up, Mr. Tabb, then quit spoofing your outbound number, you jackass.
And the phone company is their direct accomplice.
Not difficult at all to have their system screen out spoofed calls:
if(outbound_number!=customer_number)
{
disconnect_line();
play(busy_tone);
}
There you go, I won't even charge a consulting fee.
Now go do it, phone companies.
Parent
Re:Exactly. (Score:5, Informative)
I don't know about the USA, but can say that this would be completely impractical in the UK.
For various complex reasons, major users in the UK (like call centres) frequently buy their incoming telephony and outgoing telephony from completely different companies. It's not uncommon to have several companies providing each. The incoming numbers used may not even belong to the call centre. It is increasingly common for these to be allocated and routed dynamically in real time.
(This is exactly the service my company provides - to known, legitimate customers).
There's no way that the outgoing Telco is going to be able to unscramble or keep up with this.
Parent
Good comment. MOD PARENT UP. (Score:4, Interesting)
First sensible comment. The state and federal governments have been doing NOTHING, for YEARS, about this scam. When I tried to report the scam, someone in the Oregon state government just laughed, happily telling me that the attorney general's office had gotten many, many complaints.
During the years of the Bush administration, the government became extremely disfunctional, in my opinion.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
It gets worse than simply ignoring the Do Not Call list. You see, in order to be compliant with government regulations, legitimate marketing firms need to purchase an annual subscription to the DNC list. They then need to purge from their prospect list any number appearing in the DNC list.
Unfortunately, the government sells this list to anyone who asks; thus, Russian telemarketing companies sometimes buy the DNC list as a source of pre-verified, valid phone numbers.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
NONE of those calls are legitimate. Credit card companies simply block the card and wait until the customer notices and calls them.
Re:How about.... (Score:5, Informative)
Wrong. I get called once every few months by my visa card due to something that sets off their software. It hasn't been real identity theft yet, but they do call you before shutting off the card. Shutting off the card is done if they can't contact you.
But yes, it's safest not to believe it when someone calls you. I always hang up and then call the number on the back of my card to make sure I'm talking to the CC company. The last few times I did that they forwarded my call directly to fraud without going through voicemail, despite just calling the general customer support number- they must have had the phone number on the card flagged.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Wrong. I get called once every few months by my visa card due to something that sets off their software. It hasn't been real identity theft yet, but they do call you before shutting off the card. Shutting off the card is done if they can't contact you.
Your experience is limited. Banks can and do shut your card down and then call you. I've had it happen a number of times when I've made online purchases - large ones late at night and foreign ones (DVD orders for non-domestic DVDs). They block the transaction, then they shut you down for any new transactions and then 8 hours later they robo-call you to tell you they shut you down and that you should call them back.
In the many cases where it has happened to me it has been excessively stupid because I use
Re:How about.... (Score:5, Interesting)
credit card companies (banks) watch account habits and WILL call you if you do something weird. My manager got a call last year from his bank asking if he was in the USA. There was someone at an atm in hong kong in the process of trying to guess his pin number.
They don't verify anything really, they just plain cancel the card and will send you a new one with a new number. There's no reason for them to verify you ARE who you are, they're more interested in verifying the OTHER guy ISN'T you and cutting it off ASAP. Since they have your number and you're agreeing with them there's a problem, they don't need any more incentive.
Parent
Re:How about.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Anything which makes unwanted bells go off in my house by remote control is an invasion of my peace and quiet. Get some laws passed that allow the victim to hit #5 on their phone to charge the caller $5.00, then I'll be happy. If someone WANTS these calls, that's fine. Don't push #5. Most people don't want these calls and the victims should be able to instantly make these groups feel the pressure back in a big way.
Groups like The American Teleservices Association [ataconnect.org] (rebranded to remove "Telemarketing" from their name) and The Direct Marketing Association [the-dma.org] talk U.S. Congressmen into passing laws which enable annoying, invasive and often fraudulent activities from this lowlife "industry". It's an industry to the extent that people get paid to ring bells in my house but jeez - earn a living some other way. Annoying everyone over the phone [I believe] is not an "industry" as the lobbyist associations claim. If there was money in ringing your doorbell and hitting people with buckets of paint ten times a day, I'm sure there would be a lobbyist group for that, too. Oh wait... that's PETA.
Parent
I actually find those amusing. (Score:3, Funny)
At least 3 complaints from me... (Score:5, Informative)
If you get one of these types of calls, just go Here: http://esupport.fcc.gov/complaints.htm [fcc.gov] and fill out the form. In a week or two you get the print copy mailed to you of your filing.
Im glad they are acting on these @holes.
Re:At least 3 complaints from me... (Score:5, Funny)
x2. I get alternating calls from these guys and a company that wants to help me lower my rates.
That said, the best thing you can do is waste their time. It's like Groundhog day. Every time they call I get to try something different.
Sure warranty my 1969 VW beetle. Click
Oh I don't carry a credit card balance. Click.
*FCC*. Click
vs
Oh my Gawd. I'm so glad you called. So yesterday I was out shopping and my credit card got declined. Have you ever had your credit card declined, trust me it sucks. So how much can you lower my rates. [Cut them off] So that's great. So when do you think that I can get this rate actually implemented. I'm planning on proposing to my girlfriend, do you have a girlfriend. I'm so in love, she's going to love her ring. I just put it on layaway with the last $500 on my Visa. You do lower the rates of Visa right? [cut them off]. So. Oh, you need my number. Damn it, my card is out in the car. Can you hold for ONE second. Please. [set phone down for 5 minutes]. Hey are you still there? Great. So my card number is, hey wait a minute. Are you sure this is safe. One of my friends, John, yeah he got his credit card stolen through his pants. Some guy had this magic reader that you just need to brush up against someone and it steals the credit card.
See how long you can keep it going...
-
That said, Today I just left my cell phone at home. I came home to 5 missed calls.
I've filed both companies with the FCC, but the calls keep coming. I can't wait for both of these to stop.
Parent
Same outfit, different MO (Score:5, Insightful)
For a few months, I had the vehicle warranty scammers calling me on my PREPAID mobile phone. That's actually abated somewhat. Funny, because I don't live in the US much and I don't own a car.
Now, I think the same group is calling with health insurance. Repeatedly.
Oh, I've had a few calls from random "IT support" tell me that they're calling me about my recent computer problems.
Someone needs to nail these guys to the wall.
So they get shut down and... (Score:5, Insightful)
A newly-registered corporation with a very similar name comes along and uses the same offices/machines/employees to carry on the work...?
Re:So they get shut down and... (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, they don't wait to get shut down, usually.
I used to work for one of the top level (*cough*) product companies in this type of scam. I was too naive at the beginning of my employment to truly know what was happening. I learned really quick after the FTC paid a house call and quit the company. No charges were ever filed.
In short, this is how the scam works: A company is selling suspect products, web pages, in my case (hey, it was the 1990s). The hire a shady parent telemarketing company who then sets up, or hires out, smaller boiler room telemarketing companies. These smaller companies are the ones actually placing the calls and rarely have much more than 50 employees. They sell the "product" and everybody takes a cut of the deal. The small companies are rotated out, as the parent post pointed out, with a similar company with the same office, equipment and employees under a new company name and official owner every 3-6 months. This is faster than the FTC and FCC can process complaint claims. When said government agencies question the upstream companies about the crooked deals, they point to the small boiler room company, now closed and with all it's paperwork destroyed, as the source of the criminal act and show the feds sham paperwork that states their "clearly legal guidelines that the rogue company clearly disregarded." Of course, everyone, at the managerial level, is in on the corrupt deal and are fully aware it's illegal. But, this shell game scam creates plausible deniability and prevents the government agencies from putting the top level companies out of business and their owners in jail.
The owner of this "warranty" company in TFA sounds just like the boss at the company I used to work for and is likely just as guilty. The biggest problem is that this system works so well that you have to put some really suspect laws on the books to have any hope of going after the people really responsible as you can never prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they were having proxy companies commit a crime for them unless they make a serious mistake.
On a slightly related note: Why do government agencies never talk to the likely underpaid and abused file clerk(s) when they investigate a company? Why do they only interview the managers? The managers usually have a well prepared set of lies for the feds and self motivation not sell out the company. The file clerk(s), even if they've been given the company lie, will likely be more than willing to sell out the managers, especially if immunity and a cut of the fine are offered, and will have the documentation, if there is any, to back up any claims they make. (Guess what my position was at the web company?)
Parent
Finally (Score:5, Interesting)
I actually called the number back to figure out what the scam was, the guy on the other side asked me for my auto information. I told him that since he called me up, he should already know what my information is. Then the guy hung up on me.
I hope there is a public lynching.
Please fuck them up (Score:5, Interesting)
So the Do Not Call list became "Cheap list of verified numbers for people who can give you money but whose government can't arrest you."
So as the title says, please, when you find them, make an example out of them. Call them terrorists. We'll agree then look the other way!
Wow, it only took 30,000 complaints... (Score:5, Interesting)
Holy crap, the FTC did NOTHING until more than 30,000 complaints were received. You'd think the threshold would be a hell of a lot lower. Your tax money at work- thanks assholes.
cost THEM money, here's how (Score:5, Insightful)
I always take the call. Listen politely and tell them that yes, I do want to extend my car's warranty. They ask for my VIN and I say I have to go outside to get it.
Then I put the call on hold and get back to work. They actually often call back and I take the call, telling them that I'm still looking for my registration.
Then I put the call on hold and get back to work.
You don't want to be abusive to the person making the call. I have a friend who had no other job options and worked for firms like that. Often these people are either just trying to make ends meet, or just need a mindless job so they can concentrate on college. (My friend later went on to get his PhD.)
By doing this they person making the call can't even get in trouble, you are doing exactly what they are asking you to do, and clearly that can take a 1 minute or two. But this does cost the company money.
Vigilantism (Score:5, Interesting)
When people feel that injustice has been done, then justice must either be provided or else the will make their own.
Saying that vigilantism is always wrong or "against the law" is no use if no other alternative is provided to those with legitimate grievance. Unfortunately our legal systems have evolved, and continue to evolve, into artifices that deny their services to the ordinary person. The courts are a closed club, open only to those with inordinate amounts of money and influence.
Faced with this growing reality, it shouldn't be surprising when people take matters into their own hands. The sad fact is that these web vigilantes didn't another more acceptable legal route because they knew full well how futile it would be. Little people often have to make their own justice nowadays.
And now they have the means to do it.
Greetings, friends. (Score:5, Funny)
Don't delay, eternal happiness is just a dollar away.
Re:Greetings, friends. (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
I love the car warranty calls (Score:4, Interesting)
I tried to buy a warranty from these guys (Score:5, Funny)
for a 1963 Opel Kadett.
I told them I was planning a trip across Botswana, and I wanted to make sure the vehicle was covered.
Those bastards hung up on me.
This is why... (Score:3, Insightful)
Verizon has made money for years played the middle man in the arms race against invasive calls. They sell my name/number, then try to sell me *69, then sell them blocking, then try to sell me....
Nuts to them.
Re:This is why... (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
could be worse... (Score:3, Funny)
How about this? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, this is a serious proposal. Anybody else with me?
Piss off a Senator (Score:4, Insightful)
Did anyone notice that this didn't become an issue for the FCC until a senator bitched?
Apparently he (?) got quite a few of these calls at home too, and alerted someone at the FCC about it. It wasn't until then that FCC took action.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
OK, that's great about the warranty and stuff, but what I really want to know is... what are you wearing?
Re:Hurray! (Score:4, Funny)
Telemarketer: Hi, would you be interested in switching over to TMI long distance service.
Sienfeld: Gee, I can't talk right now. Why don't you give me your home number and I'll call you later.
Telemarketer: Uh, I'm sorry we're not allowed to do that.
Sienfeld: Oh, I guess you don't want people calling you at home.
Telemarketer: No.
Sienfeld: Well now you know how I feel.
Parent
Re:Hurray! (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:Hurray! (Score:5, Insightful)
I used to hate people like you.
I'm pretty sure that's the idea, yes.
Parent
Re:Hurray! (Score:5, Insightful)
Sucks to you. But hey, you have to expect that sort of thing when you take a job you know is immoral and unethical.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I agree immoral and unethical are not the best choice of words. Words that come to mind are despicable, ugly, vile, slimy, unworthy...
By 'few bad apples' do you mean, 'overwhelming majority'?
Re:Hurray! (Score:4, Funny)
I also really hate that people generalize ax murderers and baby rapists because of a few bad apples.
Parent
Re:Hurray! (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that you call and harass me without my consent with no valid business reason. Because you harrass me at work when I am trying to do my job, because you waste my money for calling me and making me use up cell phone minutes waiting for your stupid rep to put me on your do not call list that I'd say a good 50% of your industry ignore or try to circumvent anyway.
I don't NEED you to tell me what I want or need. If I need or want your product I will seek YOU out not the other way around if I have not contacted you before then leave me the frack alone!
In reference to my previous post if you don't understand this and choose to work in that industry then you deserve what you get.
Parent
Re:Hurray! (Score:5, Insightful)
Every aspect of it that involves bothering vast numbers of people on their private time in their private space using services that they pay for and normally use for family conversations, work and emergencies.
Or the general attitude the industry shows towards the worth of time of the people they pester, such as by using machines to call five people and hang up on four of them so that telemarketers don't have to waste their time waiting for people to answer.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
...and have to give negative reports because of their inability to do their job because of morons who couldn't simply ask to be removed.
Poor baby. How's this for a negative report: you'll just put my name on a list for the next shell company and call me back. You've earned everyone's ire.
Re:About time (Score:5, Funny)
Parent