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ITunes 8 a Real Killer App; Taking Down Vista
Posted by
timothy
on Thu Sep 11, 2008 04:30 PM
from the da-dum-pshhhhhhh dept.
from the da-dum-pshhhhhhh dept.
CWmike writes "Apple 's latest version of iTunes crashes Windows Vista when an iPod or iPhone is connected to the PC, scores of users have reported on Apple's support forum. Plug in and Vista crashes and shows the 'blue screen of death.' The errors began showing up immediately after updating iTunes to Version 8.0, which Apple released Tuesday as part of its iPod refresh. 'I just installed iTunes 8 over my iTunes 7 on Vista [and] now whenever I plug in my iPod, I get a blue screen death. Three times so far. Even if it is plugged in on boot, I get a blue screen," said a user identified as 'sambeckett' on the support forum about 90 minutes after Apple CEO Steve Jobs wrapped up the iPod launch."
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Good Marketing (Score:5, Insightful)
Expect Apple to blame Vista.
Re:Good Marketing (Score:5, Funny)
Expect Slashdot comments to blame Vista too.
Parent
Re:Good Marketing (Score:5, Funny)
Expect Vista to bla #####
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Parent
You both laugh now... (Score:5, Interesting)
...but what if Apple pulled a Microsoft and put an intentional bug into the app? Sure, it might seem a little too sophisticated for such a small thing, and people will still blame iTunes since it's the main application, but what if tomorrow Steve releases a press release apologizing to Vista users but blames it squarely on Vista "oh sorry something in our new version invoked a buggy piece of vista and we had to work around it." And what if that's what all the support people at apple are instructed to say? What if friends down the street say "oh dude I have a Mac/XP and it works fine for me" might iPod users say "fuckin' vista!" With a little careful preparation, I think this might be possible... maybe only a little bit of a stretch? :)
Sounds a little conspiracy theory-ish, but keep an eye out the next couple of days. You never know.
I am a mac fan, but I don't put evil past Apple by any means, they are a corporation after all. At the same time, evil attacking evil is loads of fun to watch, but I pity the people who get caught in the middle who can't sync now until a fix is released.
Parent
Good Call! (Score:5, Interesting)
The tags right now are [+] bug, media, music, windows, haha (tagging beta)
Odd that Apple, iPod, and iTunes aren't tags for a story about a bug in their software?
Vista sucks for not encapsulating the exception, but it sure sounds like the bug is on Apple's side of the issue.
-Rick
Parent
Re:Good Marketing (Score:5, Informative)
Except the application installs drivers.
And it's not necessarily a bug in the OS if drivers are causing it, unless you run all drivers in the userland like QNX does.
Parent
Re:But still... (Score:5, Funny)
Clippy: It looks like your printer is on fire. Would you like to:
* Call 911
* Put it out.
* Let it burn.
Parent
Re:But still... (Score:5, Informative)
That's a nice philosophy, but anybody who's actually written a kernel-level driver will tell you that's impossible. Kernel-mode drivers require direct access to your computer's memory and bus, and anything with that level of access can cuse your kernel to panic, period.
You can make non-kernel-mode drivers that are much safer, of course, but at the expense of performance and capability.
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Re:But still... (Score:5, Informative)
You can make non-kernel-mode drivers that are much safer, of course, but at the expense of performance and capability.
That depends entirely on what the device is doing - USB drivers live in userspace (only the generic read/write support for USB devices live in kernel space) and it works fine and support everything AFAIK, but running a modern GPU from userspace I wouldn't try. The iPod is definately in the former category.
Parent
Re:But still... (Score:5, Insightful)
But, Apple does install drivers, and those drivers CAN crash the operating system.
It's no different from any other popular operating system. If you have a bad OSX driver - boom. Grey box. If you have a bad Linux driver - boom. Kernel panic.
The only utter nonsense is that Apple can't write a driver that doesn't crash the operating system. There's tens of thousands of drivers out there, and most of them run great. Apple is big enough to do proper testing. They didn't QA properly, obviously.
Parent
Re:But still... (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe for userland drivers like printers under Vista using the latest driver model, okay, but if you mean that no driver should ever be able to crash the OS, you clearly don't understand how drivers work.
Parent
Re:Good Marketing (Score:5, Insightful)
iTunes is "GEAR powered"; i.e. it installs the GEAR CD/DVD burner ASPI drivers. See:
http://www.gearsoftware.com/support/drivers.cfm [gearsoftware.com]
http://www.gearsoftware.com/wiki/index.php?title=GEAR_Powered_Products#iTunes_for_Windows [gearsoftware.com]
Wouldn't those be kernel-space drivers?
Parent
Re:Good Marketing (Score:5, Informative)
There *is* support for user-mode USB drivers via UMDF (User-mode driver framework) [microsoft.com]. But, the driver has to be implemented differently for that to work.
Apple USB driver (Usbaapl.sys) is a traditional kernel-mode driver.
Any unhandled exception (or, perhaps, kernel memory corruption) in the driver will cause a blue screen.
And there is, in fact, a redistributable version of UMDF for Windows XP (SP2 and later).
Parent
Re:Good Marketing (Score:5, Insightful)
Eh? Bad analogy. Replace 'china shop' with 'cement barrier specifically designed to stop dump trucks.' That is one of the main things operating systems do, stop processes from interfering with each other. Understand? It is one of the fundamental reasons operating systems exist at all. To say it is not the fault of the operating system is to misunderstand the purpose of an operating system. Everything else (scheduling, memory and resource allocation) could be done cooperatively by each running program.
Parent
I Blame DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
If iPods were simply accessible as a USB mass storage device, I don't think there would have been a problem.
From what I can see, Apple uses a proprietary device-type, so they can talk to it using an encrypted connection.
All that, simply to keep you from copying files you supposedly don't have the right to copy.
Parent
Re:Good Marketing (Score:5, Informative)
And yet, the update demonstrably does not crash XP...
Parent
Re:Good Marketing (Score:5, Funny)
So, it's MS's fault that an app released today crashes their year-old OS? Oh, they should have tested it, right?
Parent
Re:Good Marketing (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Good Marketing (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Good Marketing (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Good Marketing (Score:5, Interesting)
Eh. Kinda. Ultimately I think this is a lack of testing on Apple's part though. I don't think you should be able to code together some drivers and then pass off any and all testing to Microsoft.
Parent
Re:Good Marketing (Score:5, Insightful)
True, but it is you who is buried under the pile.
Parent
Re:Good Marketing (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Good Marketing (Score:5, Insightful)
No it's not. If you are going to deploy an application and you are a well funded commercial entity it is your burden to test it on whatever platform you plan on supporting. While I am not letting Vista off the hook for this flaw you cannot say Apple is 100% in the clear here. Either they didn't test it, which is incompetence, or they didn't care.
But I am sure if the next version of Microsoft Office somehow crashed OSX, the conspiracy nuts would be in here complaining about how Microsoft is trying to tarnish Apple's good name.
Parent
Re:Good Marketing (Score:5, Informative)
It is Apple's fault. If you read the forum you'll note that they already tracked down the offending driver in the minidump. It is Apple's USB driver for the iPod: usbaapl64.sys.
Parent
Re:Good Marketing (Score:5, Informative)
I just installed iTunes 8 and happened to peak at the offending driver's import/exports.
Its written uses the kernel mode driver framework and not the user-mode framework.
BTW, User mode driver framework is available on XP too.
Parent
BSOD... (Score:5, Funny)
Wow! (Score:5, Funny)
Surprising (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Surprising (Score:5, Funny)
Well, you know how it is; QA labs are always underfunded... Maybe their budget wouldn't stretch to a Vista license. Or they couldn't figure out which version to buy.
Parent
In Soviet Cupertino... (Score:5, Funny)
Sounds like a feature to me... (Score:5, Funny)
This sounds like a feature, not a bug.
The new "better" driver model sucks. (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, it seems like there are an awful lot of problems with drivers under Vista. Certainly far more problems than I've seen on Vista.
The thing that bothers me about that is the change in driver architecture was billed as a way to make Vista faster and more stable. Why, then, is it that most of the drivers for Vista are less stable and slower than the same hardware running in XP?
Re:The new "better" driver model sucks. (Score:5, Insightful)
For every major Windows release vendors spend a lot of time and money on new sets of drivers. My guess is that to save time and money some of them didn't rewrite their drivers from scratch for Vista, but instead migrated as much code as possible. That would let certain problems slip through the cracks, such as the kernel level security issues we've heard about.
Parent
Re:The new "better" driver model sucks. (Score:5, Informative)
Vista and XP do have standard handlers for USB devices but Apple does not support this. That is why you can't plugin your iPod and iPhone and except your computer to be able to mess with it, that is why it requires special software adding protocols to your networking stack like bonjour and rDNS services. Of course if you configure so, the devices can be used as standard usb mass storage devices but you'll never get access to your music that way.
This is the principle reason why the iPod sucks, it is everything that Apple stands for which is propietary technology which really requires Apple hardware to work with. I can hook up hundreds of other USB based MP3 players out there without added software but the iPod requires specific software to interface with and don't think about going cross platform, many an ipod has been wiped by going from Mac to PC and visa versa.
You're right, iTunes should not require administrative privileges to install but all that DRM means Apple has to dig deep.
Vista doesn't handle driver issues very well but the majority of this particular issue is definitely in Apple's court especially given all the issues with iTunes 8 on both sides of the isle. At least they are mostly getting OS X right now with a lot of the silly defaults getting changed. Samba support was atrocious for the longest time when the Linux camp had it down.
Parent
I wonder . . . (Score:5, Funny)
Kernel mode driver (Score:5, Informative)
AFAIK the only thing that can cause a BSOD is code running in the kernel space, ring 0.
Quite why iTunes affects stuff that runs in kernel space is another matter... but I suspect it's probably to do with the Protected Media Path stuff. DRM, in other words. I can't think of anything in iTunes that should be running in kernel space - in Vista, all drivers apart from a component of the graphics driver are supposed to run in userspace.
Re:Kernel mode driver (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, they do (it's one of the things I particularly dislike about iTunes), but just running as SYSTEM doesn't mean it runs in kernel space - in the same way as running as root doesn't make it part of the kernel on Linux.
Parent
"Hi, I'm a PC." "...And I'm a Mac." (Score:5, Funny)
"You son of a bitch." (Pulls out a gun)
"Whoa PC, whoa, let's not..."
BLAM.
My advice (Score:5, Informative)
This happened to me... I read the Apple thread, and followed simple instructions... unplugged my HP printer, and it stopped the BSOD's when I plugged in my iPhone. Most people are saying the problem is with the Apple USB drivers screwing with the drivers for HP printers and Logitech mice/keyboards. There may be other devices that cause the problem as well, but those two are the biggies.
So until iTunes 8.1 is released, I can either charge my phone or print... but not both at the same time!
Best roadblock ad ever (Score:5, Funny)
The fault is (Score:5, Funny)
Personally, I blame Linux.
Not surprising (Score:5, Informative)
Itunes in past has:
- deleted your legit music
- Unstalled othe mac applications without asking you
- Hijacked volume control from windows
- Modified code specifically to make it hard to work with the ipod outside of itunes
- Is the largest pusher of DRM technology
Really a BSOD isn't that big of a deal. And incase you are curious NO it isn't windows fault. Why is a music player installing drivers overtop of standard drivers that work perfectly? Aside from their hatred of doing things the same even when they are better only jobs knows. If windows tried to pull even half the bullship Apple has they would have been sued into dust. I find it disgusting its ok since its mac.
IT seems to only involve people with an (Score:5, Informative)
HP Printer.
Drivers on windows can be troublesome. It would suprise me if usbaapl64.sys has some issue previously undiscovered.
This is fallout of shared component design MS uses.
Should Apple have tested with HP printers? Probably, but no one can test every configuration of a PC.
The USB set up MS is using is causing a fault in Ring 0. That's the only way I can see this causing a BSoD
Steve Jobs crossed the streams! (Score:5, Funny)
He mixed Apple iTunes sloppy code with Microsoft Vista sloppy code.
That is why I don't use iTunes or Vista, both have sloppy code in them that cause crashed. When you cross both of them together you crash the system or at least cause it to lock up.
It is also why my G3 iMac was never upgraded to Mac OSX and still runs Mac OS9, because of Apple's sloppy code in OSX. If I convert it to a new OS it will either be Linux or AROS, because both of them are stable and being ported to the PowerPC platform or have a port already.
Apple "borrowed" a lot from Commodore, first it was the Vic-20 Commodore logo key copied as the Apple logo key on the Apple //e, then it was the Commodore Vic-20 and Commodore 64 compact design copied with the Apple //c, then it was the Amiga Workbench and co-processor support for 4096 colors and above with the Commodore Amiga in the Macintosh II (The Macintosh II was basically an Amiga 2000 rip-off after the Mr. Coffee Classic black and white Macintosh series was an epic fail), and then NeXT was an AmigaOS rip-off using BSD Unix (AmigaOS/AmigaDOS was based on the Unix-like TriPOS and Steve Jobs learned from his epic fail to use Unix as it is more like the Amiga to help make Next survive), Pixar ripped off the Newtek Video Toaster that Amigas had used (Steve Jobs saw how Amiga 2000s with the Video Toaster did great desktop video for movies and wanted to borrow that tech for Pixar), and then Mac OSX got the AROS and AmigaOS 3.X look and feel but with the Microsoft Windows bloat. AROS [sourceforge.net] does not have the Windows bloat but still has the AmigaDOS/Workbench "less is more" approach in that it is memory efficient and doesn't need a high end processor with tons of memory to run it.
Basically Apple started to slowly evolve into Microsoft, and Amiga and the Amiga technology evolved into what the Macintosh should have been in 1985, and evolved into what it should be with AROS into modern times.
Apple even is suing people like Microsoft did like Pystar because of its EULA, which is very much like the one Microsoft has. Apple vs. Pystar is very much like Microsoft vs. IBM over OS/2, so Apple is evolving to what Microsoft was during the OS/2 years in the 1990's.
Re:MS or Apple (Score:5, Interesting)
Apple should have debugged it on a vista box
Fixed that for you.
Parent
Re:Sigh. (Score:5, Informative)
iTunes installs its own CD drivers to manage ripping and burning, as well as always-on "helper" and updater processes, in addition to drivers for the iPod/iPhone.
Asinine, but then again Apple doesn't follow Windows UI guidelines either.
Parent
Re:Sigh. (Score:5, Interesting)
WMP doesn't follow windows UI guidelines. I think the UI guidelines for Windows specifically give media players a pass.
Parent
Re:Sigh. (Score:5, Informative)
(I'm the original author of PyTunes, the base for Pymusique -- I know a bit about Fairplay)
Parent
Here is a test: (Score:5, Insightful)
Try plugginh an HP printer into the same usb Channel as your iPhone.
This will cause the crash.
In the scenerio I presented to you, whose fault would you think was the crash if you ahdn
t read this story?
Probably HPs.
Just an example of how overly complex windows driver architecture is.
This is why I feel we should go back to the applications installing everything it needs under a directory it creates.
Less mess, easy trouble shooting easy uninstall, not files scattered all over your system.
Parent