Engineers Make Good Terrorists?

An anonymous reader writes "Engineers' focus and attention to details, along with their perceived lack of social skills, make them ideal targets to be recruited as terrorists, according to EETimes. Planning skills make engineers good 'field operatives' was written up by Raphael Perl, who heads the Action against Terrorism Unit of Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. He offers that 'Engineers ideally make excellent strategic planners, and they make excellent field operatives. They think differently from how other people think.' That may sound like a stereotype, but Perl claims that 'because of those traits, terrorist groups actively recruit engineers.' He says that Al-Qaeda has widely acknowledged that a significant number of the group's top leadership had engineering backgrounds." This is the second time in just a few months that engineers have been likened to terrorists.

Old news

[spazdor (902907)]

We've been tapping engineers for our cause ever since Counterstrike came out.

Then answer this...

[by Anonymous Coward]

what does it pay? Health care? Time off? Options? Company Car?

Re:Then answer this...

[spazdor (902907)]

None of the above, but let me tell you about our virgin remuneration plan.

Re:Then answer this...

[MrNaz (730548)]

Is that a remuneration plan for virgins? Wow, so they _are_ actively trying to recruit engineers...

Re:Then answer this...

[MrNaz (730548)]

So lemme get this straight, they blow themselves up and then go to a big lab in the sky, with 72 other engineers? What kind of sick freak considers that a reward?!

This makes me so ANGRY!

[Beardo the Bearded (321478)]

I'm an Electrical Engineer.

THIS MAKES ME SO ANGRY I WANT TO BLOW SOMETHING UP!

And yeah, C&C had Engineers. You could take over buildings with them, as long as the building health was below 50%. Otherwise, they would damage the building.

Re:This makes me so ANGRY!

[liquidpele (663430)]

This story's logic also says Chefs make good cannibals...

Re:This makes me so ANGRY!

[WaltBusterkeys (1156557)]

In other news, engineers make good X, so long as X requires brainpower and not dance skills.

You'll never see a news story with the headline "engineers make great break-dancers."

Re:This makes me so ANGRY!

[MrNaz (730548)]

Hey, if you as an engineer think you get the short end of the accusatory stick, you don't. I'm a Muslim, and I have to qualify sentences with "IANAT" every time I say something that involves technical gear, government issues or gardening. I was once questioned because a wiretap caught me saying "that damn bush has got to go".

Re:This makes me so ANGRY!

[Nazlfrag (1035012)]

4-4-08-0709 CARNIVORE DHSpider-1512

SUBJECT: MrNaz

SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITY CLASS 2: Positively matched to keyphrase 'That damn Bush has got to go.'

ADDITIONAL DATA: ANGRY, Muslim, engineer.

PRELIMINARY ANALYSIS: Technical gear 27% Gardening 44% Government operation 89% Wiretapping 56% Censorship 38%

RECOMMENDATION: Threat level aqua. Dispatch surveillance team and interrogate subject.

Re:This makes me so ANGRY!

[utopianfiat (774016)]

Serious business, dude. I doubt you sincerely see this as anything more than FUD to silence smart people with prudent objections to the actions of the people in power.

I could stand in front of you and say that the charitable nature of Jesus's teachings make Christians good communists. It may even be true that Christianity is compatible with socialism, but that doesn't even imply that the vast majority of Christians are socialists. However, because of the stigma associated with terrorists and communists, I can start to shake your faith in Christians because of their socialist ideas.

Yeah, Engineers make good terrorists. You know who else makes good terrorists? Marines.
See Charles Whitman, Lee Harvey Oswald.
You know who else makes good terrorists? Mathematicians. Ted Kaczynski.

You know what else makes people terrorists?
MURDERING LOTS OF PEOPLE.
People act as if they can build a formula for finding at risk people, as if prevention is the number-one priority.
No, we should be mitigating risk and increasing SECURITY. If we can figure out a way to do this without OPPRESSING A FUCKING SOCIAL GROUP, I would call it the biggest advance of the millenium.

Worst possible choice

[pvera (250260)]

A real engineer would not be an asset to a terror-seeking team. If it is terror driven by religion, I can guarantee you that the engineer will always be the odd man out that won't want to stick to the rules, be it scheduling of prayers or that pork rinds are not acceptable, etc.

What you want is a sleeper. You find the right kind of young recruit that will make a good engineering student. Indoctrinate first, engineering education later. If you try to indoctrinate an engineer you will probably end up losing your own religion over the ordeal.
--

Combat Engineering, the ancient art

[jimdread (1089853)]

Right you are. The Brotherhood of Nod were pioneers in this style of warfare.

They weren't "pioneers" in this style of warfare. Combat engineers have existed since ancient times. In fact the word "engineer" comes from their activities, working the siege engines such as catapults, battering rams, etc. As an aside, in the British and related armies, a "pioneer" is an infantry soldier with some combat engineering [wikipedia.org] training. A pioneer in those armies is trained to blow things up in close combat.

Engineering has traditionally been for fighting wars. See the Royal Engineers [wikipedia.org] for example. Over time, people have started to think of engineering as a peaceful profession, but there are still many combat engineers in the world, ready to blow things up.

I'm thinking defamation suit...

[RobinH (124750)]

...but alas I'm an engineer, not a lawyer. :(

Lack of social skills?

[TheSeventh (824276)]

Lack of social skills? No way. I actually had a date last year, thank you very much. We even almost kissed.

We were supposed to go out on a second date, but she got the flu, and then her mother was sick, after that her grandma died and her father had a heart attack and she couldn't make it.

I figured I was better off anyway. With that many people sick in her family, she must have had horrible genes.

Re:Lack of social skills?

[mrops (927562)]

So those 72 virgins must sound really appeasing. The answer to life and everything... 72.... virgins... ummm.. o... that was 42.. thats ok, I still want 72, thank you very much.

Re:Lack of social skills?

[Darfeld (1147131)]

Did they say female virgins? cause if not, I bet you can find 72 there on slashdot.

Engineering Improvements:

[smartaleq (905491)]

We should flood these terrorist groups with engineers and let them improve all their weapons. Afterwards, they'll have pieces left over and nothing will work. Isn't there some saying about "give an engineer a broken computer and he'll give you a working radio"?

Re:Engineering Improvements:

[Trouvist (958280)]

Based on the engineers I know, it's more like "Give an Engineer a working Computer, and he'll give you a broken radio."

What about the managers

[esocid (946821)]

I already told you: I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills. I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?

Aptly named

[PCM2 (4486)]

With a name like Perl, this man is well-suited to discuss the link between coding and terror.

Also, if you read TFA, he goes on to state that "laziness, impatience, and hubris" are the three virtues of a good terrorist.

P.S. Christ, what has happened to Slashdot's page layout today?? The goggles do nothing!

Blah blah.

[SatanicPuppy (611928)]

I hate these articles, but I can't decide if I hate them because they're intellectual snobbery (not only are we better than physicists, mathematicians, chemists, etc, we're also superlative terrorists!) or I hate them because they're anti-intellectual (Engineers are all smart and anti-social, therefore they're basically the unabomber).

Basically anyone who is methodical and knowledgeable would make a good X, where X is something that needs a methodical knowledgeable person. Engineers are required to be methodical and knowledgeable, so QED.

I don't know why they're so damn fixated on engineers though. Doesn't take an engineer to slam a plane into a building, and that's about the most successful piece of terrorism to date.

Engineer Joke

[essinger (781940)]

(Engineers are all smart and anti-social, therefore they're basically the unabomber).

I think a common stereotype. A friend of mine (who is an actor) told me he'd heard a great joke about engineers:

How do you tell if an engineer is an introvert or an extrovert?
The extrovert looks at your shoes.

Re:Blah blah.

[Lord Ender (156273)]

It takes methodical planning to coordinate the near-simultaneous slamming of four planes, especially when starting with nothing but some money and a group of suicidal, sex-starved Saudis who have no flight training.

Engineers will be better than scientists or academics, despite similarly high intelligence levels, because engineers actually have to show results with their projects.

Instead of profiling and waging wars, though, America's efforts to stop terrorism would best be served by a policy aimed at getting everyone on the planet a good fuck and some cold beer.

Re:Blah blah.

[Kryptikmo (1256514)]

"Engineers will be better than scientists or academics, despite similarly high intelligence levels, because engineers actually have to show results with their projects."

I think that you will find that even us fizzysists need to show results. No papers, no grant money. No commercial products, no commercial sponsorship money. No money, no job. If you know any people who don't have to show results with what they do, please ask them if they're hiring! Sounds sweet!

Wargames...

[jemenake (595948)]

Reminds me of the quote in Wargames: "He does fit the profile perfectly. He's intelligent, but an under-achiever; alienated from his parents; has few friends. Classic case for recruitment by the Soviets"

Engineers go to school to learn how to plan.

[mr_mischief (456295)]

That engineers plan things well should be no surprise. Engineers as a group design everything from bridges to sports stadiums to computer chips. They try to find a good balance of expected average need, overbuild and contingency performance, and cost.

That both the terrorists and those fighting the terrorists would want chemical, electrical, structural, and electronics engineers for their specific areas of expertise alone should come as no surprise. That they're also found to be good planners in general is only slightly less obvious.

The assumption that all engineers are similar to terrorists I think is a stretch.

Likened to terrorists?

[JSBiff (87824)]

Uhh, hello, isn't that a bit of a leap, going from the statement "Engineers make good terrorists" to the statement "They are being likened to terrorists".

It doesn't appear anyone is *likening* engineers, in general, to terrorists. What they are saying is if you can recruit engineerss to your terrorist cause, that can benefit your cause, because they are good at solving problems and planning. Well, is that not true of engineers? I don't think you can *be* an engineer if that isn't true.

I don't have any problem with the statement, "[Engineers] think differently than other people." I don't think that sounds like a stereotype. If other people thought like engineers, they'd likely *be* engineers. It takes a certain mindset, and a certain capacity to think logically and analytically to be an engineer. Unfortunately, this mindset doesn't necessarily inherently exclude any thought patterns which lead someone to become a terrorist in the first place. (After all, one man's terrorist is often another man's freedom fighter or courageous defender of the faith).

Are all engineers the *same*? No. Is there a certain commonality they share in how they think / solve problems which is not shared with the general public? I think the answer is likely yes.

Re:Likened to terrorists?

[Intron (870560)]

As an engineer, when I read "Engineers make good terrorists" my first thought was:

Why would I want to make a terrorist? Aren't there enough?

More appropriate

[spleen_blender (949762)]

Engineers make good EVERYTHING.

Re:More appropriate

[russotto (537200)]

Fortunately, it's been found that salespeople make the best suicide bombers. It seems you need two things to be a good suicide bomber

1) Ability to find the place you're looking for. This is also an essential skill for salespeople, who often travel to client sites.

2) Having what it takes to close the deal no matter what it takes.

Additionally, Al Queda has found that inexplicably, using salespeople as suicide bombers helps recruit engineers to the cause.

I agree and take no offense

[pembo13 (770295)]

I frankly find the analysis to be flattering. I don't have to agree with who I am being compared with to appreciate the comparison.. only the qualities being compared are important.

So, thanks for the complement

Yup, so let's not piss 'em off, OK?

[ericferris (1087061)]

Overall, it's hard to disagree with the article. Heck, a guy who has the persistence and brains to go through the gruesome class schedules of an Engineering school will not be easily deterred by obstacles. And he is inventive by training if not nature.

An engineer could easily turn bad... And he'd be very good at being bad, if he has the motivation. So the conclusion should be obvious: don't alienate engineers.

That said, I recently met a very nice and competent guy from Pakistan who is in the USA on an H1B visa. He is a PHP developer, and he is quite good. We discussed finances, and to my horror, I found out that he is making $1100/month. His employer houses him in an appartment along with six other H1Bs, so he prolly saves $1000/month in rent, but still, this is an insultingly low pay rate for such a qualified guy, but a factor 4 at least.

Now, this guy is very nice, and way too busy to even think about trouble. But I can't help thinking my reaction if I was dropped into a country where I would make less than your average waiter, after years of hard schooling. I'd harbor a grudge, that's for sure.

So a piece of advice for Execs and VPs: don't be too stingy with your folks. Them techie weirdos can turn into rampaging monster at the drop of a hat. Heck, I'll give them free espressos and decent raisses if I were you. :-)

Not very competent engineers

[xs650 (741277)]

If very many competent engineers were terrorists, terrorism would be far more devastating than it is today.

It's because engineers are iNtuitive Thinkers

[GnarlyDoug (1109205)]

The Myers-Briggs personality theories predicted this congruence. Engineers tend to be NTs, or iNtuitive Thinkers. So do CEOs, generals, scientists, programmers, mathmeticians, and revolutionary leaders. Might as well say that CEOs, scientists, and generals share a lot in common with terrorists. Fact is that they do, and it's because intuitive thinkers (NTs) parse the world in terms of principles, axioms, models, and abstractions based on logic and reason as the NT understands them. They can be willing to fight, kill, and die for a principle or belief. Most people will fight to protect themselves, to protect family, or by extension their own country, but most will not fight for an abstraction. However to an NT an abstraction can be real and worthy of being defended. That is why IMO the NT mindset can be persuaded to join a revolutionary group and be effective at it and at the same time morally at peace with himself over his actions, even if those actions are seen to be high treason by the majority.

Give it a rest

[samantha (68231)]

Al Qaeda has been hopelessly and purposefully over-hyped. We in the US and to some extent other Western powers went looking for a vast international octopus to put the old Cold War spy and intelligence networks to shame. We were told there were sleepers everywhere and huge underground control compounds somewhere in the mountains of Afghanistan. Years later almost every so-called terrorist cell case has fallen apart as utterly empty and not one bit of major organizational infrastructure or evidence has come to light. The truth is that Al Qaeda is tiny and not very well funded. There is no serious wide-spread and powerful terrorist movement afoot. All that energy pretending there was was merely an excuse for greatly curtailing freedom, massively increasing government power and control and creating military power bases in certain highly strategic spots. It is high time we put paid to this vicious nonsense and utterly rejected any arguments or suggestions made on such a basis.

Engineers, especially of the hackerish variety, scare control freaks of every stripe. I think that is a very good thing.

Re:Ecelctic Recluses Maybe

[TheRealMindChild (743925)]

But terrorists? Only if the engineers are lonely, disgruntled people in-general. I think most engineers would be more Constructive than Destructive by nature

You see... that is the problem. The term "Terrorist" has been so deluded that most people will fall into that category anymore. Smoke pot? Terrorist. Downloaded a song? Terrorist. Using SSH? Terrorist.

And it is thrown around even more, if you show an average intelligence larger than those who would label you a terrorist... and how many people do you think fall into that category?

Re:Ecelctic Recluses Maybe

[rk (6314)]

You have to admit, as spelling errors go, it was a curiously apt one...

Re:Ecelctic Recluses Maybe

[by Anonymous Coward]

I disagree. Simply put, engineers would be excellent terrorists. Engineers look to solve problems. The problem is just determined from a frame of reference. As terrorists, the problem is bringing down some infrastructure by determining its weaknesses and exploiting them. As engineers, the problem is developing the infrastructure and designing them to be robust.

An anecdote: I recall eating lunch one day a couple summers back with some coworkers (all aerospace engineering senior undergrad or grad students). We spent 45 minutes discussing how one could take down a plane while in flight using simple things - nothing fancy such as explosives. Whether any or all of them would be remotely successful is one matter. Nonetheless, in 45 minutes of eating and discussion we had a list of 10 of so items that could be plausible to taking down an aircraft.

Re:Ecelctic Recluses Maybe

[by Anonymous Coward]

A good engineer will always think of the possibilities of destruction, even if they're in the business of construction. An engineer has to critically think about their designs to determine where the weak points are. Whether designing skyscrapers or secure software, determining weaknesses is a part of the job.

I'm sure the thought police would have a field day with me for saying this, but I think about committing crimes now and then. Not that I would do such thing, I enjoy my life outside of prison. But just as a type of mental exercise it's interesting to me while standing in line at a store, noticing where cameras are located, determining blind spots, exit strategies, exposed wiring that could be cut, etc. I then think about how I would improve the system.

My point is that engineering is about designing stability. You can't produce stability if you aren't able to see the possibility of destruction, so the same qualities that make one a good engineer are the qualities that make them a potential terrorist in the eyes of a paranoid politician.

They have the skills, but the desire, maybe not

[phorm (591458)]

I'd have to agree that it's a fairly thin correlation to draw. Mind you, if I were going to blow something up, I suppose I'd want somebody with an engineering background in demolitions as opposed to an art major.

The question is where you'd fine such an engineer. Unless he/she is already a bit of a nutjob, an engineering background should come with decent employment options and intelligence that would somewhat contrast with the somewhat brainwashed or easily overwhelmed variety of terrorist-recruit that tends to be more readily available.

Recruiting engineers to be terrorists, likely not. Training terrorists to be engineers would be more likely.

Re:They have the skills, but the desire, maybe not

[inzy (1095415)]

one man's freedom fighter is another terrorist

al-quaeda are terrorists to americans, but freedom fighters to palestinians/other oppressed muslim countries. engineers may well decide to fight for what they see as a good cause

Re:They have the skills, but the desire, maybe not

[dbrutus (71639)]

Besides being banal, this isn't actually true. Al Queda, in practice, mostly succeeds in killing muslims that they feel insufficiently devout or of differing political or religious opinions. This is rather unpopular in the muslim world.

Re:They have the skills, but the desire, maybe not

[mollymoo (202721)]

You have very blinkered view of terrorists. The ones who blow themselves up are the bottom of the food chain. Above them are people planning attacks, recruiting people, training them, making bombs, raising and moving money, implementing secure communications and all the other things you need to make a terrorist organisation function effectively. Many of these are intelligent, pragmatic people who realise that terrorism may well be the only effective tool they have to influence the political process. It's not like terrorism has never worked where political means have failed. If some superpower came and shat all over your country I suspect you'd consider being a freedom fighter (which is what terrorists typically consider themselves) too.

Re:They have the skills, but the desire, maybe not

[chuckymonkey (1059244)]

Have you ever been in on an interrogation for one of these higher up? Ever met on in person or talked to one? Or are you just pulling that out of your ass? I have personally been there and done all of the above. Iraq 2003-2004 2005-2006 (sneaky bastard). Most of them are pushing a very religous agenda, even the ones high on the food chain aren't doing it because they're opressed, they do it because they want to be the opressor in their region. They want all the mosque's in their area to preach what they want preached and to keep the masses ignorant to garner more power for themselves. Ever seen a body wadi? That's what we called it because that's where we would find all the bodies of a particular tribe that another tribe hated. I was present when we captured a particularly sick imam that made a habit out of raping and beheading people with opposing religous views. Most of the guys planting the bombs don't even necessarily care one way or the other about the position of the person who wants him to do it, usually it's just some poor farmer that had someone offer him money to put a box in a certain place at a certain time. What I think you fail to understand is how the culture in the mid-east works, there is a lot more to it than U.S. vs. Sunni. vs Shiite. There are huge familial bonds, ancient blood feuds, clan feuds, tribal feuds, honor killing, among many other things. All of them want to be the dominant power where they are and after they get it, they want more power and more, it's just the way of things. Not to say that all muslim regions are like this, just the bad ones are like this. I even had a fight with my mother about lumping a whole group of people together, she said some nasty slur about muslims and I lost my cool. Muslims aren't the problem, power hungry religous zealots are the problem. I worked with so many muslims that were great (Gigi, Aziz I'm looking at you) people, fun to be around, and all they wanted is for people to stop fighting and get along. They saw us (U.S. Forces) as the best way of doing that and often they would die for that when another zealot would find out they worked with us. Here's a little story for you, we took a break in the city we were in at a place where the proprietor was friendly towards the U.S. We bought some roasted chicken and were sitting down BSing with him when he received a phone call and immediately ushered us into the back. The reason was that there were some of the above stated assholes coming and he didn't want to have a firefight that could hurt other people, so he hid us in the back. Call it what you will, but the man was just trying to help and get on with his life, the vast majority of muslims want this. The others just want to control these good people.

Re:They have the skills, but the desire, maybe not

[The One and Only (691315)]

The question is where you'd fine such an engineer. Unless he/she is already a bit of a nutjob, an engineering background should come with decent employment options and intelligence that would somewhat contrast with the somewhat brainwashed or easily overwhelmed variety of terrorist-recruit that tends to be more readily available.

Middle Eastern universities have historically graduated more engineers than can actually find jobs over there. In addition, many of these engineers joined radical Islamic groups in college, just as lots of American college students used to join radical political movements.

Re:Well, um, duh

[secPM_MS (1081961)]

It was obvious more than 20 years ago that terrorist organizations were notable for their lack of strategic as well as technical competence. Mind you, this is rather common among the various groups that consider themselves to be social, religious, and political leaders. Legitimate organizations can hire the technical expertise that they need, and find scientists and engineers to be invaluable in accomplishing various objectives - the scientists are needed if you need to develop new technologies to accomplish your objectives.

As an undergraduate physics student in the late 60's I made a number of comments about the total incompetence of the various radical groups. When one radical tried to get me to provide guidance for one of the groups (I still don't know if he actually had the contact) I replied that if I wanted to get into that business, I would go to work for the feds and that the group in question would either get arrested or blow themselves up, both logical and deserved consequences of their stupidity. They did. And they didn't even take out any innocent bystanders.

If you are scared of change, you are not going to like dealing with engineers and scientists. They enable it. Build it up, tear it down, secure it, penetrate it. Engineering can do both good and bad. So can science. Different organizations may have different definitions of good and bad.

Re:New Display System

[megaditto (982598)]

That's the problem with engineers: they are never content. Always searching for a better way. Always trying to change things.

So what if the new skin is crude, broken, inefficient, obstructive, and plain ugly to boot? Just bend over and accept the changes like everybody else. Or are you some kind of a terrorist.

Re:New Display System

[Richard Steiner (1585)]

That's the problem with engineers: they are never content. Always searching for a better way. Always trying to change things.

I think you misspelled "end users"... :-)

Re:New Display System

[markov_chain (202465)]

You sound like a good engineer. Would you like to join our club to design remote controlled, um, toy cars?