Want to read Slashdot from your mobile device? Point it at m.slashdot.org and keep reading!

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Security The Internet Businesses IT

Anti-Botnet Market is Black Eye for AV Industry 204

alternative coup writes "eWEEK is running a story on the emergence of an anti-botnet market to fill a perceived need for software to deal with botnet-related malware (Trojans, keyloggers, rootkits, etc.). The article characterizes this as 'another black eye' for the existing anti-virus industry — asking consumers to pay twice for protection from things that anti-malware suites are missing. Venture capital money is flowing to these anti-bot products, an implicit statement that the AV giants are not doing their jobs. 'For companies such as Symantec, which sells the Sana-powered Norton AntiBot and anti-malware subscriptions, it's a nickel-and-dime situation. Symantec officials say Norton AntiBot is for a specialized, technical market segment looking for high-end tools to deal with botnets, but [Andrew Jaquith, an analyst with The Yankee Group] said it's a case of anti-malware companies double-dipping.'"
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Anti-Botnet Market is Black Eye for AV Industry

Comments Filter:
  • by joshamania ( 32599 ) <jggramlich&yahoo,com> on Monday March 03, 2008 @01:35PM (#22625212) Homepage
    Symantec has already lost me as a customer. I began shifting my clients away from it as soon as the new spybot 1.5 released. It has a modicum of registry protection and it generally isnt a crapshoot as to whether or not its going to brick the computer its installed on...brick may be a strong term, but Norton/Symantec's footprint is way too much for a client machine...and now they want to add more.

    Yeah...ditch these people now. AV on the client is a scam. Effective management and AV at the chokepoints can often provide enough protection I've found.
    • by Zeinfeld ( 263942 ) on Monday March 03, 2008 @01:38PM (#22625274) Homepage
      I recently cleaned up a relative's machine after reports that it was running slowly. He suspected a virus, the problem was that he had five different A/V packages on it, none of which he had asked for. Every tech support guy who had touched the machine had loaded his company package of goodies on it, including their A/V cramware. Then the A/V packages were fighting so it took 15 minutes to bring up explorer.

      I killed all the A/V apart from the one that comes with AOL (which was the only one being updated in any case). Machine worked again. Problem solved.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Sorthum ( 123064 )
        Symantec has a pattern of acquiring a company that's somehow related to their core business (Does anyone remember what that's supposed to be? I sure don't...) and turning the product into bloated crapware. Norton Utilities used to be FANTASTIC, as did BackupExec; whenever Symantec acquires something, it's time to find a replacement for it...
        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          The main reason Norton lost my company as a customer was their subscription system. Every year we has to buy 10% extra licenses to account for failed installs/subscription renewals/reinstalls to get the automated updates working. Combine that with a bad pricing structure in the small business level of subscription (10 - 20) and I went with Avast Professional. One key good for all installs over the subscription period, and decent volume rebates in my market segment. So I'm amazed how well ISPs filter viru
          • by Machtyn ( 759119 ) on Monday March 03, 2008 @03:09PM (#22626500) Homepage Journal
            I'd also check out what Comodo [comodo.com] is doing. Their free software is free for all, not just personal users (like Grisoft's AVG). They make their money off of web-site security certificates. I particularly like their firewall. It is very granular and allows you to create a myriad of rules based on software and/or ports.
            • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

              by Danse ( 1026 )

              I'd also check out what Comodo is doing. ... I particularly like their firewall. It is very granular and allows you to create a myriad of rules based on software and/or ports.
              I use Comodo's firewall, and I think it works well. I do think the UI could use some more polish though. It's not as easy to work with as ZoneAlarm's, but at least Comodo doesn't randomly lock out my internet connection.
        • According to their corporate timeline [symantec.com], the first products Symantec released were "natural language" tools for databases. Then, they started mergers and acquisitions. Funny, I've always thought of them as a compiler company (who moved on to other things), but their compilers were from yet another buyout. In 1987, they bought Think Technologies, makers of Lightspeed C and Lightspeed Pascal.

      • Malware has evolved from being mostly destructive juvenile pranks to subversive software with a profit angle. The more intelligent malware tries not to call undue attention to itself. Those generally don't pig out on all the resources or gratuitously trash things. It's not profitable. Overly virulent diseases such as Ebola don't do well because they kill their hosts too quickly.

        Meanwhile, the security industry has become like allergies, leukemia, and AIDS in one convenient package. Overkill on the sc

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      My biggest problem with Symantec is that the software sucks, and in particular the Corporate edition. We walked away from it January, not renewing our forty licenses, and going with F-Prot, which is a lot more lightweight, and doesn't have all the worthless bells and whistles.

      And you're right, real importance should be on a) properly securing workstations and b) good virus scanning at the head. I still think it's a good idea to have AV on the workstation, but there are better and less miserable malfunctio
      • Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • by Sorthum ( 123064 ) on Monday March 03, 2008 @02:30PM (#22625988) Homepage
          No, it's *NOT* 100% free. Sure, it's free to YOU, in your mom's basement or whatnot, but it's not free to business users in corporate locations.
          • by Cecil ( 37810 )
            If you have more than one computer on a LAN and you're using the Avast Free version, you're technically violating the licence agreement. Add a linux/samba domain controller to the mix, and the program begins actively warning you that you're violating the licence agreement. Even if it's for personal use only. I confirmed this with the support representatives.

            Personally, I ultimately solved this problem by buying Avast Pro, though there was much grumbling before I did so. Avast is a nice program, agreed, but
      • >My biggest problem with Symantec is that the software sucks, and in particular the Corporate edition. We walked away from it January,

        I just made the decision to walk away from Corporate Edition as well. In my case, it was the @#$%^ memory leaks. We couldn't get more than a week's uptime out of our servers. Symantec does not offer a patch for this known problem, and their solution was for us to buy forty new licenses for their new version. Sorry, but Hell No.

        • Not to plug products, but I found F-Prot a dream. It's corporate edition is really cheap (we bought 40 licenses for something like $200). Without all the ugly overhead of Corporate Edition, it runs very well. It's pretty simplistic, which is fine by me, because it means a lot less failure points.
    • Yeah...ditch these people now. AV on the client is a scam. Effective management and AV at the chokepoints can often provide enough protection I've found.
      Sure it's enough if your clients are semi computer literate.. but some people just aren't, sadly.
    • by sm62704 ( 957197 ) on Monday March 03, 2008 @02:38PM (#22626106) Journal
      Apple or Linux. My box is dual boot with networking in Windows disabled, as I pointed out in a comment modded "flamebait" this morning (who's going to flame me for giving my honest opinion about Microsoft, Ballmer?)

      So as to not garner another "flamebait mod" from the astroturfers by pointing out how insecure Windows is out of the box, I won't. Rather, I'll point out that Linux and Mac aren't being targeted by the botnet operators. Regardless of the reasons, you're safe with Mac or Linux unless a cracker targets you personally (no OS is completely secure).

      Poor Microsoft, if they ever marketed a secure OC Norton and McAffee would sue for anticompetetive monopoly practices and the EU wouldn't let them sell Windows in Europe any more.

      -mcgrew
      (I don't do Mondays very well and I'm on a losing streak lately so please be kind to an old nerd)
      • by penix1 ( 722987 ) on Monday March 03, 2008 @02:58PM (#22626364) Homepage

        I'll point out that Linux and Mac aren't being targeted by the botnet operators.


        You want to know why you were marked troll? Could it be because of the utter crap you are spreading? Here, let me help clear that up for you:

        http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/05/1234217 [slashdot.org]

        *nix boxes aren't being used as a drone in a botnet but they are being used to control them. Far worse if you ask me.

        Maybe a little less smugness and a little more research and you wouldn't get marked troll.

        DISCLAIMER: I run Gentoo Linux SOLELY. No Dual Boot, no virtualization.
        • Just because you disagree doesn't make the grandparent's comments/observations deserving of a "Troll" label. Frankly, your screed reads more like troll material than does the parent's straightforward, matter-of-fact post.

          Troll, mod thyself.
      • And for any other anti-virus vendor who cares to implement it.

        #1. A bootable CD that can give you read/write access to the local hard drive.

        #2. A database (that can be updated) of what the MOST COMMON files are in which directories OF THE OS and their various identifying characteristics.

        Because it is far, Far, FAR easier to validate that a certain file is "good" than to determine that it is "bad".

        Simple concept, no?

        Anything that cannot be identified can be "quarantined" if the user so wishes. Any data files
        • by sm62704 ( 957197 )
          I hope you get modded up. Your comment was both interesting and insightful.

          Part of Microsoft's problem is their refusal to separate data from code. The only way pure data can infect a computer is if a program has a buffer overflow or other exploitable programming error.

          There are, of course, some things that do require a data/code mix, like a spreadsheet, but most don't. DRM (Digital Restrictions on Media) must have code in the data. A WiMP file has built in DRM and you can imbed a virus there. And MP3 or Og
      • Security by obscurity has never been a wise choice as a single line of defense.
        • by sm62704 ( 957197 )
          Security by obscurity has never been a wise choice as a single line of defense.

          Very true, and it's one of the reasons Linus is more secure than Windows. If the source code is available to millions there's a far better chance of finding bugs and fixing them.

          Fixing beats hiding any day.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by bendodge ( 998616 )
      That's very interesting, because I thought immediately when I read the summary that with a bit more support (OSS community, anyone?) Spybot could replace most of the commercial junk. It really does a top-notch job already, it just needs its scope expanded a bit.

      But then, how many Linux people want to help a Windows tool?
  • This... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Chordonblue ( 585047 ) on Monday March 03, 2008 @01:38PM (#22625272) Journal
    ...has infuriated me for some time. This idea that some things are 'viruses' and others, 'spyware'. Last year, I tried to nail down Sophos on this very thing. If I'm protected against viruses, shouldn't I also, by default, be protected against spyware since that's how it usually gets on there in the first place?

    'Oh no', they tell me. 'That's different...' Yeah. I see that. Now we got this going on.

    People want their computers to be protected against any form of intrusion - from within or without - regardless of how it's classified. The reality is, that there are now forms of malware out there that are either undetectable or incurable once you have them. I use a gateway to help protect our computers, but every once in a while it still happens.
    • Re:This... (Score:4, Informative)

      by moderatorrater ( 1095745 ) on Monday March 03, 2008 @02:05PM (#22625626)
      The difference between a virus and spyware for me is whether ClamWin gets it or AdAware. Considering how well clam did when compared to the other security suites, I'm not worried about using a non-commercial product. Since it's personal use, AdAware works nicely and for free. Throw in ZoneAlarm is you feel the need to have a firewall, and you're all set with no money down and 0% interest.
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by evilviper ( 135110 )

        Considering how well clam did when compared to the other security suites, I'm not worried about using a non-commercial product.

        ClamAV works fine, but on Windows, the performance is horrid. ClamAV takes 4X+ as long to scan a hard drive as Grisoft AVG. For that big of a performance difference, I'll just pay the $30. Not to mention the lack of on-demand scanning, and the massive memory footprint.

        AdAware works nicely

        No it doesn't. AdAware "misses" so much spyware it's not funny. Spybot easily blows it away

    • Re:This... (Score:5, Informative)

      by querist ( 97166 ) on Monday March 03, 2008 @02:23PM (#22625882) Homepage
      The two sets are not mutually exclusive. It is possible for a "virus" (or a "worm") to include spyware functionality, but just because something is a virus or a worm does not mean it is spyware. Spyware is often installed by either a "drive-by download", where a website pushes something onto your computer without you knowing about it, or it is included with some other application. However, it _can_ be installed by a virus or worm. (Or, for that matter, though an active attack and exploit such as via someone using Metasploit for less-than-noble purposes.)

      Being included with another application may or may not qualify it as a member of the set "Trojan Horse", depending entirely if the application intentionally installed includes the spyware in its function or if the spyware is a secondary piece of software that is not directly announced. A "Trojan Horse", in the software sense, is a piece of software that reportedly does one thing but actually does something else, either with or without including the reported functions.

      However, I agree with what I believe to be the general, pervailing thought that a user should need only one anti-malware application that should be able to handle all of these. I also believe that "defense in depth", when possible (corporate environment, for example) is the best approach. I look at it this way: just because the castle has really high walls and good archers doesn't mean that the guards inside the castle shouldn't be carrying weapons of some sort. The only issue with many "anti-virus" products is that they take so much CPU time and other resources that they negatively impact the overall usability of the computer.

      As a security professional, this irritates me as well. I agree with the Yankee Group's analysis that this amounts to "double-dipping", and I feel it is ethically wrong. However, in a (supposedly) free-market economy, these things will happen until the market sorts them out. (I am _not_ an economist. My speciality is InfoSec.)
      • However, I agree with what I believe to be the general, pervailing thought that a user should need only one anti-malware application that should be able to handle all of these.
        Windows Defender!

        Laugh, it's funny!
  • IF a company can't be constantly selling you NEW products (as opposed to just updates for the old) and using new fear tactics to do it, how can they grow? The AV market basically stagnated, so they started to introduce their new software (to fight phising, adware, etc.) as stand-alones or supplements. Why just incorporate it into your stagnating existing product when you can introduce a whole new line?
    • I don't get why we need tools for 'fighting phishing'. I wonder if some people use servants to check their snailmail for scams.. some people should just be sent away to live on farms. I'm of course meaning as livestock rather than workers. They'd probably be able to live a happy life just chewing on hay and rolling around in fields.
      • Re:Grow or die (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Captain Splendid ( 673276 ) <capsplendid@nOsPam.gmail.com> on Monday March 03, 2008 @01:51PM (#22625428) Homepage Journal
        I wonder if some people use servants to check their snailmail for scams.

        You just countered your argument. Our computers are meant to be servants and do stuff like this for us, that's the whole point.
      • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

        by mark72005 ( 1233572 )
        Right. If you're so dumb as to open email attachments promising XXX pictures, or to swallow the bait when you get a phishing email... maybe it would do you some good to be inundated with viruses once. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad for you to examine reality rather than wander around the web with a doe-eyed look of wonder and the helplessness of a newborn babe.
    • I'm the loud type that would constantly babble about how my fucking awesome product is fighting a constant arms race AND WINNING. Definitions updates on 1 year service. Upgrades free with subscription. And by the way, this new upgrade includes protections against X Y Z -AND- rootkits (even Sony's). Yep. Keep buying those subscriptions, only $10/mo or $100/year. Now with white-listing and white-profiling, homeostatic reaction, etc.
    • Re:Grow or die (Score:4, Insightful)

      by element-o.p. ( 939033 ) on Monday March 03, 2008 @02:50PM (#22626272) Homepage
      Uh, because it pisses off their customers when they discover that, despite paying the yearly extortio--excuse me, subscription--fee, their computers still aren't protected?

      Treat me honestly, fairly and openly, and I'm a customer for life. But if you sell me a "security suite" then nickel and dime me for all of the add-ons to provide the protection I thought I was getting in the first place, then I'll go elsewhere.

      I used to use McAfee on my wife's Windows desktop (I use Linux, thank you very much) until I noticed two things happening: 1) the size of the product, and the resources it needed to run, kept growing, and 2) the protection it offered kept shrinking. Despite running the full malware protection on her computer, she *still* kept getting infected, and it was all I could do to keep her machine running. I've since switched to http://www.eset.com/ [eset.com]Nod32 and have been, for the most part, pretty happy with it. It's fairly lightweight, works pretty well and has some cool features that reasonably competent system administrators will like (e-mail notifications, for example), although it doesn't tolerate unstable Internet connections during updates, unfortunately.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by sm62704 ( 957197 )
      IF a company can't be constantly selling you NEW products (as opposed to just updates for the old) and using new fear tactics to do it, how can they grow?

      This is the problem with many industries today. They have the need to grow, like a cancer has a need to grow. Why must people be so greedy that they have to use every unethical and immoral tactic there is to sustain their greedy growth? What's wrong with settling for an honest living without stealing your way to cancerous growth like Norton does with is pr
      • > Why must people be so greedy that they have to use every
        > unethical and immoral tactic there is to sustain their greedy growth?

        Ah, that's easy.
        Because their shareholders want their 401K's to be worth as much as possible by the time they retire.

        Greed is the sole point of being in business (um.., usually).
        • by sm62704 ( 957197 )
          The shareholders are the ones I'm referring to. They are ultimately responsible for the actions of the companies they invest in.

          When money is your god, the only evil is lack of profit.
  • Really... is there a need to separate spyware (which AV programs are horrible at detecting) from virus scanning as well? Most of the things mentioned are detected by scanners as they are, but not well. There's only so much that signature scanning with poorly implemented heuristics can detect.

    So don't forget to get an AV program, personal firewall app, spyware scanner, and a botnet scanner in addition to the next trend that can be re branded and sold to people once again.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by sm62704 ( 957197 )
      Really... is there a need to separate spyware (which AV programs are horrible at detecting) from virus scanning as well?

      Of course! The difference between a trojan and spyware is that trojans come from e-vile hacker bad guys that want to use your computer for nefarious purposes, and spyware comes from benign, nice, everybody loves them corporations like Sony that want to use your computer for nefarious purposes.
  • by Temujin_12 ( 832986 ) on Monday March 03, 2008 @01:55PM (#22625480)
    IANAAVE (I am not an anti-virus expert), but it seems to me that much of the bloat comes from the ever increasing virus signature database these engines have to keep in memory (especially for on-access real time scanning). Considering that there seems to be no end in site for these signature files and the high rate of virus mutation, virus signature tables seem to be an extremely antiquated and inefficient model for detection.

    Of course, heuristics won't be a silver bullet as it brings its own set of problems (ie: false positives), but I think we'll see more of this used as time goes on. IANAB (I am not a biologist), but is seems that our body's immune system operates more on heuristics than some exhaustive chemical look up table. Considering the millions (billions?) of years nature has invested in our immune system I think we would do well to take a page from mother nature on this one.
    • by ppanon ( 16583 ) on Monday March 03, 2008 @02:21PM (#22625856) Homepage Journal

      IANAB (I am not a biologist), but it seems that our body's immune system operates more on heuristics than some exhaustive chemical look up table.

      Yep, you're no biologist, and even less of an immunologist. You need to read up on antibodies [wikipedia.org]. Now, part of the immune system does work on heuristics, but a big part of it is all the antibodies running around your body as a "chemical lookup table", but one with a massively parallel seek mechanism.
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Temujin_12 ( 832986 )

        Yep, you're no biologist, and even less of an immunologist. You need to read up on antibodies. Now, part of the immune system does work on heuristics, but a big part of it is all the antibodies running around your body as a "chemical lookup table", but one with a massively parallel seek mechanism.

        I stand corrected. Thanks for the link ppanon. Though I still question the approach of A/V engines relying so heavily on lookup tables. I guess my revised point would be that we (meaning the computer industry) should seek to keep these lookup tables as small as possible by maximizing the number of viruses that can be detected via heuristics.

        • Why waste time keeping track of all the crap that should NOT be on the machine, and instead track what SHOULD be? Anything that's not on the list, can't execute. Period. When running a new program for the first time, this would simply require a single confirmation click.
        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by querist ( 97166 )
          That sounds like an excellent idea. However, it is no where as easy as it may seem at first. My doctoral research was on a similar problem, identifying intrusion attacks based on behaviour and not signatures. I know people who are working on exactly what you have suggested from an anti-malware perspective. These are people working on their dissertations. This is a rather complex problem when you dig into the details.

          Your overall approach is a very good one, and it is one that has been attempted several time
  • by roman_mir ( 125474 ) on Monday March 03, 2008 @01:56PM (#22625494) Homepage Journal
    How can an OS add on fix a fundamental problem of the security of an operating system and the applications that are running on top of it?

    It is my firm belief that AV software can never fix the real problem: broken OS security model and application bugs. For the AV software vendors this is always a game of catch up, the virus/trojan/worm/bot etc. creators have a huge advantage: numbers. They have more people figuring out ways to infect your computers, brake through your buggy and exposed application interfaces, send out executables with backdoors and viruses.... there are probably thousand times as many people working on the ways to take over PCs than there are people who are in 'business' of preventing this from happening.

    And really, it is not that complex of a problem: run OS administration applications in one security level, run user applications in another security level, use hardware infrastructure to prevent these levels from intersecting and taking over each other, but of-course allow the highes level administration applications to take precedence over any user application and at least kill it. Do not allow execution of applications that are not authorized by the user. There are more good ideas than that, but basically do not allow a user application to hijack the system by pretending to be an OS administration application, do not allow user applications to change their access levels, do not allow them to hide their processes from observers. Designate protected data storage on disks, and allow that data only to be modified by certain applications that are assigned by the user.

    However this is not a job for some ad on AV software.
    • by wizardforce ( 1005805 ) on Monday March 03, 2008 @02:20PM (#22625840) Journal
      I would carry that idea even further and ask the question: how can an OS fix a fundamental problem of the security of the user. There's a saying: I'd rather have a security minded user on an insecure OS than a click-happy user on the most secure OS. just as an example, there are Windows users who haven't suffered from a virus in years. they surf online just as much as the fscked computer users do, they do not however click everything that comes in front of them so to speak. then there's the recent Mac garbageware that was on /. not very long ago. Now I'd argue that Mac has considerably better security compared to Windows but in this case it didn't really matter if the user was hell bent on installing whatever they like. FREE SCREENSAVERS INSTALL NOW!!!!
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by vertinox ( 846076 )
        how can an OS fix a fundamental problem of the security of the user.

        Easy. Take away their admin rights.

        But mores seriously, the Windows OS model sees it as ok to modify the OS in order to the applications to run on it. If the OS was impossible to change by the user or a 3rd party program we wouldn't see 95% percent of the viruses out there.

        Programs should be adapted to the OS and not the other way around. I'm always leary about programs that ask you to reboot the system in order to run even if they are legi
        • by Z34107 ( 925136 )

          I'm always leary about programs that ask you to reboot the system in order to run even if they are legit.

          Why? Windows is modular - what are you supposed to do if a program updates a component that's already in use?

          Granted, this doesn't happen very often unless you're installing a driver. But, most "restart your computer" warnings are, in modern times, superstition.

          Go ahead - I dare you to install Age of Empires II and then run it without a reboot. The devs are just being cautious.

          • Why? Windows is modular - what are you supposed to do if a program updates a component that's already in use?

            Well that is why windows has the most viruses! It needs to stop being modular and if programs need to update something in the OS then too bad. Work around it!
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by mxs ( 42717 )
        To some extent you are right, stupendously stupid users can be a real problem. However, any "solution" that hinges on "educating" users is doomed to fail from the start -- Not everybody can know every form of malware out there, and the bad guys are constantly finding new ways to dupe people into falling for it. If your security plan includes a line like "don't install free screensavers", you have already lost.
    • Since these packages are all separate programs, how does this affect the performance of the computer it runs on? One of our students wanted to get on our wireless connection. She had a, just-out-of-the-box, brand new HP laptop with 1 GB of RAM running Vista and the full Norton suite.

      It took almost 3 minutes just to get to network prefs. The process should have taken less than 30 seconds but ended up being closer to 7 minutes!

      We tend to measure computer speed in GHz, but there needs to be a new standard set
    • by BroncoInCalifornia ( 605476 ) on Monday March 03, 2008 @03:19PM (#22626602)

      Windows started out horribly insecure. Through the years it has very gradually been getting better. Unfortunately the malware writers have been keeping up. This situation has incubated a malware industry that is now well resourced, organized, and experienced.

      Now even if Windows from an objective point of view as secure as say OS X it does not matter. The malware industry that exploits Windows is mature and up to the challenge.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by sm62704 ( 957197 )
      In Microsoft's defense a trojan is kind of hard for an OS to fight. That's why we Linux folks are always nagging you MS folks about untrusted binaries.

      As to viruses, there's no excuse for a virus to be able to infect your computer. That's a sign of a buggy os and/or application.
  • by psydeshow ( 154300 ) on Monday March 03, 2008 @01:59PM (#22625530) Homepage
    Anti-virus, anti-spyware, firewall -- all of these protections should be built in to the operating system.

    We shouldn't have to add third-party tools to make an OS secure. It should be secure (or at least, secure-able) out of the box.

    Charging more for a suite of software that all does the same thing sounds like a last-gasp attempt to deliver some profits before architectural changes force these companies out of business.

    • by Sorthum ( 123064 ) on Monday March 03, 2008 @02:04PM (#22625620) Homepage
      Sure, but you and I both know that the minute that the OS fixes this stuff, there will be MASSIVE litigation from the entire AV sector.

      Kind of crappy, really-- but what REALLY rankled me was when MS released its OneCare; sorry, but you don't get to charge me to fix the holes in your broken systems. That's a massive conflict of interest that I'm rather surprised nobody has taken them to task for yet...
      • by mlts ( 1038732 ) *
        Even on operating systems which are considered secure by default, AV makers still make tons of money. Not because the OS needs it, but because a lot of businesses need to check off a box on a client contract that states that all their machines have AV/firewall/anti-malware apps running on them, from the office PC to the high end AIX machines with the multi gigabyte DB/2 database. For example, some companies that are working on PCI compliance for credit cards pay large amounts of cash to McAfee for a virus
        • Asking Microsoft to specify a program's network access would interfere with their ridiculous desire to staple .NET onto everything. I swear Solitaire will be next....
        • 1: Outlook cannot accept any incoming packets.
          2: Outlook can send out to hosts x,y, and z on port 25.
          3: Outlook cannot send out on port 25.
          4: Outlook can hit the POP3 ports on hosts a,b,c.
          5: Outlook can hit the IMAP port on host d.
          6: Outlook can hit the HTTP port on host e.
          7: Outlook is disallowed from any further communication out.

          Call me crazy, but wouldn't rule 1 bork rules 2,4,5, and 6?

          • by mlts ( 1038732 ) *
            Rule 1 prevents Outlook from accepting any incoming connections. Outlook has no need to be listening on any ports at all.

            Outgoing connections should be restricted, so if Outlook does get hijacked by an exploit, the damage it can do is limited. It can still do some bad things (sending bogus E-mails), but a firewall ruleset would prevent it from connecting to some random IP in a botnet to pick up a new payload, or opening a listening socket so someone can connect to it.

            I'm not just picking on Outlook; a lot
    • by Pojut ( 1027544 )

      Charging more for a suite of software that all does the same thing sounds like a last-gasp attempt to deliver some profits before architectural changes force these companies out of business.

      Or you could just use the combination that I have used to keep my PC spyware/virus free and no reboots except upgrades for three or so years, if not more. AVG, Spybot, and ZoneAlarm (firewall only).

      All three programs are free, none of them rob you of any real processing power (or I at least haven't noticed any), they al

  • the trick to understanding it was to know that "AV" stands for "antivirus", not "adult video"

    what does the adult video industry have to do with botnets? and nevermind the black eyes, that's a kind of adult video i'm not into

    live and learn
  • Once for the OS which should have been more secure in the first place, twice for the anti-virus, and a third time for the anti-botnet.
    • The antivirus industry ITSELF is a multibillion dollar "black eye" on the "dominant vendor of PC operating systems".
  • I mean, shouldn't it be adjusted by the market itself? Some vendors want to sell burger and fries separately, and some comes in a combo. If the combo seller have the same quality and cheaper, then they'll win. Nobody forces you to go to that non-combo restaurant.
    • Also, you can change your habits so that you no longer need a burger or fries.

      For example, you can go to a completely different restaurant where the food is free, and if you don't like what's offered, you can have whatever you want because because all the recipes and ingredients are listed right on the menu and the cook doesn't mind if you go into the kitchen and whip up whatever you like.
    • by sm62704 ( 957197 )
      Would you still think that if McDonalds had an anticompetetitive monopoly? In a monopoly there is no free market.
  • If they had another few hands, they'd be triple and quadruple dipping. Once they figure out that separate email scanners could be sold... well, you know what I mean.

    Meanwhile they are preventing nothing. Car analogy time: Lets pick on Ford today. Ford sells you a new car, and a yearly maintenance contract to keep everything working. Of course it is your responsibility to take the car in for that maintenance each year. If you put low profile tires/wheels on the car, it voids part of the maintenance warranty,
  • Am I alone? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by FredFredrickson ( 1177871 ) * on Monday March 03, 2008 @02:14PM (#22625738) Homepage Journal
    I don't use any antivirus at all. I just don't get infected in the first place.

    Use Opera to browse porno. (Or just about anything at all).

    Don't run crack.exe (it's a trojan).

    Problem Solved. Am I alone here?
    In the off chance that I get infected (Ok, I ran crack.exe), just take the hooks out of the system (hijack this, pv if neccessary, unlocker, done). Restart. Problem soved.
    • by sm62704 ( 957197 )
      Don't run crack.exe (it's a trojan).

      Why in the name of everything vile and evil would you want your computer on crack? [uncyclopedia.org] I mean come on, even your mom [uncyclopedia.org] wouldn't let her computer do crack!

      "Why you be lookin' up crack in da uncyclopedia when you can have yo PC on crack? I gots da best crack dey is, I have you computer in a two hunnat dolla a day habit, my crack so good! Sheeit!"

      I hope you're at least using a firewall... or a Mac.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Anti-purse (Score:2, Insightful)

    by tringtring ( 1227356 )
    Do the anti-virus co CEOs also have poor handwriting? These days, whenever I read anti-virus (or anti-spyware or anti-malware or anti-trojan) articles, I am reminded of (not very good) doctors who always use difficult and confusing words to befuddle me and deprive me of the little money I have - Microsoft certainly did not invent FUD, though it mastered it better than its oringial inventors (doctors), and now the AV industry is gleefully following these bozos...
  • by WhiteWolf666 ( 145211 ) <{sherwin} {at} {amiran.us}> on Monday March 03, 2008 @02:35PM (#22626064) Homepage Journal
    Good grief.

    People are really, really stupid. Once your system is compromised, it is *not-fixable*. There is no reliable, effective way to insure that your system is untampered with unless you can do a bit-wise verification of every executable on the system, and even that isn't 100%; you really need to check *every* file against a "known-good" one.

    I've seen plenty of systems with "up-to-date" antivirus get hosed, and they generally don't seem to be the same afterwards. Not to mention that few, if any antivirus packages are better than 95%.

    If you can't keep your system clean, it isn't reliable. The only thing antivirus is really good for is as a means to determine if you need to wipe and re-install. For business purposes, I believe this to be unacceptable, and I cannot fathom why people don't switch to systems that do not require this ridiculous kludge.
    • by sm62704 ( 957197 )
      I cannot fathom why people don't switch to systems that do not require this ridiculous kludge.

      Because a quarter century ago nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. These days nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft. In a culture that worships money, the man who has the most of it is God.
    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      Once it's compromised, sure. But antivirus software can actually prevent that from happening. Every once in a while my antivirus software will find a virus tucked away in some file I've downloaded but haven't yet run, and although I don't recall it ever being something I was planning to run (mostly email attachments) I can see how this would help to protect a user who was less security-conscious and more "clicky" than I am. If you catch the virus before it runs, you're as clean as if you never downloaded it
    • The reason many companies and people do not buy Macs or switch to distros is because the software they rely on simply doesn't exist anywhere else.

      I'm one of those people. I've tried Linux "equivalents", but they simply doesn't work the way I need.

      Until I can switch ALL of my software needs to Linux, I simply cannot go over 100%. I keep Linux installed on my PC (Fedora 8 has an entire 160GB drive dedicated to it), but still have to switch back over to XP for the bulk of what I do.

      A mac would be better for me
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by necrogram ( 675897 )
      I thought fixing as a busted system was east. I press 'F12 for network services boot' and viola my machine has a clean install of windows pushed down!

      Its amazing how a properly configured (and locked down) environment can be pretty effective.
  • It has been my recent experience starting in 2007 that many weird problems including registry corruption and 100% CPU time is eliminated by removing the Anti-Virus software. Anti-virus software tends to make machines unusable which means Anti-Virus protection is worse than a virus.

    If I look at all the problems Anti-virus software causes compared to that caused by actual viruses it is clear viruses have caused little damage compared to the Anti-virus software.

    The dominant anti-virus software vendors hav

    • Some people (Read: The Author) work in environments with high employee turnover. I have to process in 2-3 employees a week and we lose just about as many. Therefore training is an effort in futility. That's why I run Trend Micro SMB Client Server security and just forget about it. If a computer is too messed up I'll just re-image it.
  • by DrVomact ( 726065 ) on Monday March 03, 2008 @03:29PM (#22626716) Journal

    It seems to me that, superficially at least, it makes sense to talk about a "botnet market" as separate from the anti-virus software market if you are talking about a higher-level network solution, not simply another program that consumers run on their PCs. But from the article, it's not clear what the focus of this supposed market is. If it's software that's run by companies with large PC networks, or ISPs, and if its purpose is to track botnet-like behavior by network clients with the aim of isolating suspect clients from that network, then it makes some sense to me. This could be a good thing...if it works. If it's yet another "safe computing" package marketed to Joe Sixpack, then it's an outstandingly stupid idea. If a computer is part of a botnet, the critical failure has already occurred, and no application package is going to fix it.

    I suppose the people who are boosting this new "market" are responding to a money-making opportunity created by a real social problem: the fact that massive botnets exist, and that such phenomena rob us of collective resources--that is, resources that exist for our common use. Ultimately such collective thievery boils down to every individual having to pay more for services, and to endure degraded service quality to subsidize the thieves. Surely preventing this is a worthy goal...or a goal worth paying money for.

    As many here know, the virus/botnet problem is due to two factors: a massively deployed operating system that is by design insecure, and a multitude of ignorant users. Of the two, the OS is most to blame. If Joe couldn't get his PC zombified by clicking some link to download stupid stuff off a web page, or reading some mystery email, the problem would be much diminished. However, I judge on the basis of their track record that Microsoft is unlikely to ever create a truly secure operating system; it's just not a priority. Because of Microsoft's ability to get computer retailers to bundle only their OS with every computer that is sold and because of most buyers' disinclination to learn about what they are purchasing, the situation is likely to continue—unless computer users are given a strong incentive to change their buying habits.

    And here's where network-level anti-botnet software might change things. Suppose ISPs started to identify PCs that are compromised to the extent that they constitute a public nuisance or threat—and isolate them from the network. Obviously, the anti-bot software would have to be very good; you don't want a significant number of false positives. But it seems to me that if you do automated traffic analysis, it wouldn't be that hard to identify the zombies (here's where those who really know about this stuff get to jump in and tell me why I'm wrong). Once identified, the zombie is isolated, the owner gets a singing telegram notifying him of the action that was taken and why, and what he should do to fix the problem. ("Reinstall Windows" will probably not be the recommended solution.)

    I think that this would help, but it would require several other changes. For one thing, it's not clear to me that ISPs actually care about botnets or viruses. I'm not sure why that is. (Again, someone with a better understanding of the communications infrastructure might want to help me out here.) For another, the [L|U][n|i]n[u|i]x OS has to become a commercial product. That's right: it has to be pried out of the hands of the well-meaning and hardworking people who have made it what it is today, and put into the hands of some money-grubbing capitalist who will make deals with computer retailers, guarantee support to end-users, and above all give it a decent name. You see, normal people don't trust free things; they only trust people who take their money. That's the fundamental stumbling block of the free software movement: in the market place, anything that's to be had for nothing is perceived as having no value.

    Anyway, the result I'm hoping for is that, as a result of penalizing stupid user behavior, people will either start using one of the epigonoi of Unix, or that MS will crumble under market pressure and actually create a decent secure OS. Well, I can dream.

  • AV and malware tools don't have a standard definition or usage for what constitutes an actual problem so you're left up to each individual tool telling you which problems it finds.

    Maybe it only finds the problems it can find, maybe it only tells you about the problems it can fix. Maybe the definition of 'fix' is up in the air too. For too long the AV vendors have created products that can't be compared head to head reliably. They ALL claim to do something called AV scanning, but no one can really tell you w
  • AV industry is Black Eye for Microsoft.

  • The Yankee Group? The "We have our tongues firmly lodged in Microsoft's nether-oriface" Yankee Group?

    And I actually AGREE what what was said and find it sensible?

    OMG! The end times have come!

Suggest you just sit there and wait till life gets easier.

Working...