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Citizens Spy On Big Brother
Posted by
CmdrTaco
on Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:27 AM
from the they-love-that dept.
from the they-love-that dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Citizens of the world are striking back at 24/7 state surveillance by pulling out their cameraphones and filming inept officials, deadly healthcare lapses and thuggish cops. So-called Sous-veillance is seeing more and more people posting damning footage of official misdemenours to sites such as YouTube to shame them into action." I wonder what happens if you inform a cop that you are recording him when he pulls you over.
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Submission: Citizens spy on Big Brother by Anonymous Coward
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You wonder? (Score:5, Informative)
Oh..that's simple...camera mysteriously gets dropped and smashed on the ground (probably while you are being slammed against the car), and you get charged first with obstructing justice...with more charges to follow later as they have time to think them up.
Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah, like the guy who refused to give the cops the video footage of them coming to his door when he informed them that he had a camera and a tape and they arrested him and beat him? I mean, theres not much left to wonder about, welcome to Amerika.
Posted anonymous for obvious reasons.
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Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah, I'm not sure why this was modded troll either...I mean, this story was published on Slashdot awhile back. Actually, there are two of them on that subject here at a home [slashdot.org] and here filming a car pullover [slashdot.org].
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Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, you have only one body, and insurance won't help you if you're dead.
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Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
... and the still intact memory chip has a nice recording of the officer's boot, which turns out to be very helpful in securing a conviction for assault and his dismissal from the department, and from the society that he was supposed to protect.
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Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Informative)
"Dismissal from the department" is a heck of a way to mispell "getting a medal and commendations for his bravery" [reason.com].
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Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
chances are that a cop is gonna "firmly grasp" the arm holding the camera, and the camera will end up on the ground waiting to be destroyed. We had a protest a few months ago at my university that ended up like that; only one fragmented video escaped.
If it's a normal digital camera, try using a Micro-SD card in an adapter.
The chances are higher that the card will survive even if the camera is destroyed.
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Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Interesting)
You get arrested under shiny new terrorism laws, eg:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06/24/bus_spotter_clampdown/ [theregister.co.uk]
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Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Informative)
No. What's more likely is that the officer starts acting with utmost professionalism, smiles, and fines you for various things, with which he would not have bothered otherwise. He is also going to take his sweet time issuing the ticket(s) — especially if you commit another folly by indicating, that you are in a hurry. (12 years ago I did that, and the pig took 40 minutes to issue the citation.)
If it is illegal in your locale to record people without warning, put a notice about recording on your window — he is not going to notice it, but you'll be covered — do not bring it to his attention. In general, do not argue with the policemen. All arguments should happen in court.
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Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Interesting)
Dallas SWAT has been raiding poker games. Drew Carey covered this at http://www.reason.tv/video/show/172.html [reason.tv].
When one of the defendants subpoenaed copies of the video tapes made
of the raid -- the reality show "Dallas SWAT" had filmed it -- he was
told that no copies of the tapes existed. See http://www.theagitator.com/2007/04/20/tales-of-a-dallas-poker-raid/ [theagitator.com]
In Oceania, members of the Inner Party were allowed to turn off their
telescreens.
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Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because it hasn't happened to you, it never happens. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
Plus, the cops should have to act BETTER than most people, because, guess what, they're COPS. If that means they're on camera 24/7, then so be it. They signed up for it.
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So where is the cop outrage? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why aren't the 'good cops' turning in their corrupt, violent and evil coworkers?
Sorry, until I see more exposure of bad cops from within their departments, I'm lumping the 'good cops' in with the bad cops.
Sympathizers you know? Kinda like how we bomb the houses of people who help Iraqi Insurgents, even if they aren't actually insurgents themselves.
Aiding and abetting the enemy: abuse of authority.
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Re:So where is the cop outrage? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because they are in the same family/gang/tribe.
Most people don't turn the bad people in their family unless something really drastic happens (like they kill people, and even then who knows).
When was the last time you turned in your coworker?
And if your boss and upper ranks are corrupt well good luck turning them in.
> 80% of the people won't bother - they go with the flow. If the flow is evil, they do evil. If the flow is good, they do good.
Only a few will have integrity and be good against the "flow"/norm. Even defying their bosses.
And there'll be the bad bunch who will be bad no matter what.
So you want a good "norm", you start with the people at the top who are responsible for setting the norms.
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Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:It so rare... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Funny)
They're only jealous because we lefties are the only ones in our right minds.
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Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Informative)
Then you hear stories like the one about the 16 year old kid with the broken back who was tasered 19 times by the police for failing to stand up when ordered [rawstory.com]
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Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Informative)
Life is good when you don't know shit about the world, innit?
Here's just two examples (off the top of my head) from the U.S. of A. that made it into the national media:
http://www.drugpolicy.org/law/police/tulia/index.cfm [drugpolicy.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampart_Scandal [wikipedia.org]
Of course, none of those happened to you, so they probably didn't happen (let alone count) . . . .
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Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's what I'm saying: Anyone with the power to ruin your life just by their word against yours should not be trusted.
Doesn't mean they're all bad people, but just like most police approach every traffic stop being aware of the fact someone could be waiting in the driver's seat with intent to harm them, every citizen should approach every encounter with the police knowing there are bad cops out there and they may be at risk.
This won't change until officers start getting prosecuted for swearing false statements, and the "good" ones stop covering for the "bad" ones.
If you've got the time, I highly recommend watching these two videos before you ever consider trusting a police officer:
http://www.hackaday.com/2008/06/16/dont-talk-to-the-police/ [hackaday.com]
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Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
Your first mistake is lumping all people who wear blue uniforms and carry a badge "the police". There are big differences between your local traffic cops and the police forces in L.A. and N.Y. Among other things, I highly doubt your local police have shot unarmed people from over 50 yards away, or beaten up protesters.
Your second mistake is thinking that the cops treat you and everyone else the same. You're probably white and relatively well off, and were pulled over wearing a nice button-down shirt and slacks. That makes cops think you're generally a law-abiding citizen, even if they're pulling you over because you broke the law. When less privileged people are pulled over, they're far more likely to be ordered from their car, patted down for weapons, have their trunk searched for drugs, etc.
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Good! (Score:5, Interesting)
This is great. I just hope people don't stop once it all is made illegal.
Good Luck (Score:5, Insightful)
You might be considered a terrorist if you record the police. Wouldn't be the first time.
Marge Simpson said it years ago (Score:5, Funny)
"The courts might not work anymore, but as long as everyone is videotaping everyone else, justice will be served."
Marge Simpson
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Score:5, Insightful)
Who watches the watchers? The point becomes moot when everyone is a watcher.
Re:Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Score:5, Informative)
The original idea was Plato; he posited a social class of people in his ideal Republic who would guard over the regular citizens. He had ideas of trying to inculcate in them a sort of high-minded ideal of service which would keep them from being corrupt; even at the time it was considered to be a bit naive.
The latin quote is from Juvenal; a character in one of his satires was talking about hiring people to guard the chastity of his wife (daughter? can't remember), and stressing out because he was sure that she would put out for her guards first, so he'd need a second set of guards to watch the first guards, and so forth.
The problem is always the same; we rely on the guardians to be self-policing, and it doesn't always work. But when you open up the possibility of everyone stepping up and taking some of the burden of watching the watchers, it becomes possible to sidestep the problem. The watchers are being watched by the watched, in effect being policed by the people they are policing.
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Re:Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Score:5, Funny)
What are you, some kind of Godwin's Law Nazi? You know, Hitler was always accusing people of pushing the boundaries of Godwin's Law.
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Take care to (Score:5, Interesting)
Depends on the cop (Score:5, Informative)
I wonder what happens if you inform a cop that you are recording him when he pulls you over.
Almost all of them will ask you to stop recording.
Some will physically block the camera.
Very few will try to take your camera from you.
Police (and security guards) will do this with varying levels of anger and threats.
The only two things that matter are:
1. You are on public property
2. You are not filming/photographing something you legally cannot (like a port or inside a mall)
Re:Depends on the cop (Score:5, Insightful)
2. You are not filming/photographing something you legally cannot (like a port or inside a mall)
In the USA at least, there's no legal framework that bans filming inside shopping malls. There is simply a legal framework that allows the private owners of the mall to make rules dictating whatever behavior they like or not, and if as a guest you do not comply with these rules, you must leave. If you do not leave when requested by any private owner, whether following their rules or not, you can be reported and arrested/ticketed by police for trespassing. In any case, the private owners cannot (1) take your equipment, (2) delete your pictures, (3) force you to do anything but leave the premises.
Personally, I think that since most shopping malls get huge tax incentives and other public funding, they should be held to certain accessibility and public use laws. However, that's rarely the case, and the private owners can enjoy this micro-fief in which to control their "guests" at their whim. If you don't like it, shop elsewhere.
And lastly, if a police officer ever asks you to delete a photograph, follow the ACLU bust guidelines. "Am I under arrest, or am I free to go?" Since a photograph is copyright-protected simply through the act of creation, destruction of a photograph is (1) destruction of your personal property, and (2) destruction of legal evidence. The cop needs to be reminded as gently as possible that there are two options and that you know this: they arrest you (securing all evidence safely) or wave goodbye.
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Re:Depends on the cop (Score:5, Informative)
I'd agree with everything you said and would only add the following link for a PDF outlining Photographer's Rights:
http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm [krages.com]
I keep a printed copy in my camera bag in case I ever encounter an overzealous police officer or security guard. (I wouldn't be rude about it, but would politely refer to the sheet detailing what my rights are.)
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Re:Depends on the cop (Score:5, Insightful)
"Depends on the cop" is right. Considering the disparity in power, you should think very carefully about the stakes before you make a cop aware that you are recording his or her actions. At the very least, it will piss them off, and pissed off cops are nothing you want to deal with. If you're just being pulled over for speeding (and you're white and sober), just being pleasant and respectful (read: kissing a little ass) will go a long way.
Mind you, I think it's a good thing for citizens to videotape police actions. But cops are dangerous and angry cops are even more dangerous, and you shouldn't play with that kind of danger. Bear in mind the number of occasions that cops have been videotaped beating the holy living hell out of somebody and then gotten off scot-free. If you're going to take on the system, don't do it casually. By all means, if you see injustice, take it on -- but do so with forethought and a careful consideration of the risks you expose yourself to. It's not a game, and the consequences can be pretty serious. Choose your battles wisely.
The short version: If your main motivation is to be an annoying wiseass, start a blog instead.
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Re:Depends on the cop (Score:5, Interesting)
It will also depend on the state. In some states recording video is totally legal but audio requires permission.
I have a brother in law that is a police officer and a good friend that is one also.
The amount of crap they have to take is amazing.
My brother in law as called out on a call because of "Pinching". I don't mean some stealing but two women at a Christmas sale started to pinch one another!
He also had to deal with a man that was trying to commit suicide by cop. He tired to kill himself and my brother in law stopped him. The guy then sued the police because he suffered emotional trauma when my BIL tackled him and took away the gun.
Sorry folks but the vast majority of the police offers I have had dealing with have been just normal people doing a crappy job the best that they can.
My brother in law is in trouble with the town officials because he refused to discipline an officer under him.
What did the cop do? Well during an armed robbery being committed by a minor the cop told the kid with the gun too "Drop the f'ing gun".
The officer was going to be suspended for using foul language in front of a minor. A minor with a gun holding up a store mind you but still a minor.
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Now consider all of history (Score:5, Insightful)
Everyone the authorities swore did something wrong.
And it gets worse- humans actively remap their memories to make them feel better. 10 years after these incidents, the police probably really DO believe their initial lies.
I've seen it in others and I've seen it in myself and I'm more careful of it than most (or at least I remember that I am! ;) )
Police should be required to video tape everything they do and lack of video evidence should be a strong case against them.
People (not just police) have been shown to lie a lot more than we used to think. We need to change our systems of justice to fit reality.
don't inform the cop you're recording him. (Score:5, Informative)
"I wonder what happens if you inform a cop that you are recording him when he pulls you over."
Beats me, but apparently it's more fun (and career-lethal) to film him without notification [liveleak.com].
Re:don't inform the cop you're recording him. (Score:5, Funny)
What's funny is at first I assumed your were answering the question as opposed to admitting ignorance.
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illegal in some states to do that (Score:5, Informative)
In some states it is illegal to film a government official.
Not that it will help them once it gets on youtube, but first you have to get it on youtube and not confiscated by the police.
What would you do if you filmed a cop beating someone and they asked for the video camera? If you answered anything but give the camera over, expect to be in pain and most likely jail.
Shooting back (Score:5, Interesting)
Wonder why they didn't mention Shooting Back [btselem.org]?
I tried this - And was searched as a terrorist (Score:5, Interesting)
I was catching a bus from Walthamstow Bus Station, part of a busy transport interchange in East London. On my way I saw the police kicking the living crap out of someone. I went up to start filming, and was told by a "Community Support" [wikipedia.org] officer not to take pictures. I asked what law I was violating, and was met with the witty answer of "the law that says you can't film that over there". Right then. Seeing no point in continuing this conversation while the man continued to be smashed around by the Metropolitan Police, I went to the other side of a toughened glass barrier, stood on some chairs and started filming from there. It was at this point that I was grabbed by two officers and stopped and searched under the terrorism act, 2004. Unfortunately, as I shut the shutter on my K800i, all footage was lost :(
They're actually allowed to arbitrarily search anyone in London under this law, arbitrarily, as it's designated a zone of terrorist threat or somesuch. The mistake the officer searching me (whos full details I do have) claimed that I had been filming covertly. Standing on a chair holding a camera above my head, I'd not felt this to be covert, so I submitted the "stop and account" slip to the Independent Police Complaints Commission, who handed the investigation back to the local force, who stalled the investigation for long enough that the CCTV had been erased!
The rest is history, I'm afraid. There are wranglings going on with my MP regarding this, but should I be in such a position again I'll be damn sure to make certain that the footage is saved.
rodney king proved this in 1991 (Score:5, Insightful)
citizens with cameras is an idea that destroys the outdated orwellian dystopian fantasy so many posit as their philosophical starting point when evaluating trends in the modern world
"big brother" as a viable concept is dead. "1984" is pure fiction. it will never come to pass. the citizens merely use the government's own tactics and technology against them
long live "little brother"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_King [wikipedia.org]
Seussveillance (Score:5, Funny)
Forget Sousveillance, you want Seussveillance. You have to wear a big long stripey jumper and speak in rhymes.
'Excuse me officer, would you mind,
would I be fined, maligned or confined,
if I were to tape your daily grind?
Sir, I'd like to believe,
that you and me we've
both come to perceive
That your job affords you - the responsibility to be true!
(I couldn't conceive of a way you'd
deceive me my friend, aggreive or bereave!)
A hasty repreive!; My hypothetical weave
does you an injustice. (And speaking of justice)
Enough of confession: let's return to my question.
I got impression of obsession with oppression.
Is this a true fact, or idle digression?
Would recording your good self be found a transgression?
Am I a free man?
or need I grab my tape, my cape and escape?'
Re:Operating a (camera)phone while driving? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not in my jurisdiction. Too bad about yours.
We barely have seatbelt laws here. Phone? Fine. Camera? Fine. Shotgun rack? Fine. Bought the shotgun at a gunshow with no ID? Fine.
Do a video at your own risk. However, only very rarely does a police officer respond negatively to an individual that is polite when pulled over, is sober, and doesn't provoke the officer. It's a self-fulfilling action to believe that police officers will react negatively; they're human and IMHO aren't going to react negatively without provocation. Then tell it to the judge. Or suffer the consequences of provocation.
When I was young I called cops pigs. Then I came to understand what cops have to put up with. Some are still way too brutal. But most are just trying to keep the peace. Traffic cops I have problems with, but I keep quiet and polite during a trafffic stop, then beat my tickets anyway and don't drive like a raving Type-A idiot. Others have different results.
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Re:Operating a (camera)phone while driving? (Score:5, Interesting)
My uncle was a sheriff for many years, (just retired) and I asked him what is was like dealing every day with people giving you shit, hating you, spitting at you, calling you names, etc..
He told me it didn't bother him much, it was just a part of the job, and that assholes will always be assholes. The part of his job he hated was the psuedo "victims". IE, you're called to a house for the 3rd time that month for domestic violence, and the woman wants YOU to stop the man from beating her, cause she's a victim. Of course, she would always go back to the same guy, and a few weeks later, the whole cycle would repeat. He really hated those situations, or any domestic violence, because you have so much emotional crap you have to deal with as a cop on the call.
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