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Cuil Proves the Bubble Is Back

Posted by CmdrTaco on Thu Jul 31, 2008 08:12 AM
from the so-sick-of-it-already dept.
IT
MattSparkes writes "Cuil may only have launched this week, but it seems that they're already enjoying late-'90s boom-style comforts. 'Lunch is ordered in every single day. Huge fridges burst with snacks and drinks. Bowls of strawberries and muffins lie around the rest area. The company pays for a personal trainer and gym membership for everyone. A doctor calls round each Friday, after the weekly barbeque, to see if everyone's in good health. Employees drift in an out at times that suit themselves.' Seems like an awesome place to work, but how long will their $25 million VC funding last at this rate?"
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Submission: Cuil proves the bubble is growing by MattSparkes (950531)
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  • Cuil Proves Nothing (Score:5, Insightful)

    by eldavojohn (898314) * <my/.username@@@gmail.com> on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:13AM (#24415193) Homepage Journal

    Cuil Proves the Bubble Is Back

    First of all, a single anecdote does not prove anything. If you included eBay's Skype deal or Google's YouTube deal ... wait, scratch that last one. See, there's constantly non-prudent business deals and every now and then you see a real whopper.

    Lunch is ordered in every single day. Huge fridges burst with snacks and drinks. Bowls of strawberries and muffins lie around the rest area. The company pays for a personal trainer and gym membership for everyone. A doctor calls round each Friday, after the weekly barbecue, to see if everyone's in good health. Employees drift in an out at times that suit themselves.

    Do you think that this is what caused the dot com bubble? Do you think the vast majority of people were living like this when it burst? I'm no economist but I thought that the problem wasn't with how the IT and Web Site companies were spending their money but rather what the customers they found were giving them money for--basically nothing. A few HTML pages? Not even worth my time to read?

    $25 million in venture capital is nothing these days. Let them burn it. Yeah, we'll all be laughing a couple months from now when they're busting their asses to find some income--or maybe they are correct in thinking they are the next Google. Hell, Slashdot ran a story [slashdot.org] reporting them to index more than Google. With the kind of press they achieved, maybe they're right to live like royalty for a bit?

    Does anyone look back on Google and say "They hired a massage artist? Proof the bubble is back!" No, because they thought they were going to be big and they were.

    You want to prevent another bubble? Don't take a job where you're not sure how you or any of your coworkers draw revenue from real customers who in turn receive some service or product that makes complete sense. That's how you prevent a bubble. And unless you're part of the 1% calling the shots on how to spend money, you needn't worry about how other companies spend their money. This frivolous spending should just make it easier for Google to beat their bottom line and steal customers back. And if they can't, well then let Cuil rake large piles of capital together and set them afire to their heart's content.

    • Re:Cuil Proves Nothing (Score:5, Interesting)

      by tha_mink (518151) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:31AM (#24415483)
      I think that the bigger proof is that their product sucks ass. Go try and use it. I looked for "aes zip linux" and got 0 results. 0 results? Really? You index *more* than google and you can't find ONE reference to "aes zip linux"? I tried to use that thing, but it doesn't seem to enjoy providing me with any results. To me *that* is proof that they are a bubble company. Where's the beef?

    • Re:Cuil Proves Nothing (Score:5, Informative)

      by JonnyDomestik (1190331) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:49AM (#24415717)
      Well I am an economist actually and while I don't think that anybody is saying that this sort of spending caused the bubble, they are symptomatic of the sort of investing that happens in a bubble. Of course, with the economy going the way it is, all this is pretty much moot since there is clearly not a lot of speculative investment going on.

      • Re:The bubble is back! (Score:5, Interesting)

        by TubeSteak (669689) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:34AM (#24415537) Journal

        But if we are smart, we can still make money. I recommend selling short on Google now.

        I recommend not taking stock tips from /.

        Unless of course enough of us get together and actually move the market in the direction we want.
        But I suspect /.ers don't have that kinda cash on hand.

        • Re:The bubble is back! (Score:5, Funny)

          by kalirion (728907) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:50AM (#24415741)

          But I suspect /.ers don't have that kinda cash on hand.

          But they could easily get some. Not legally, but round off a few fractions of a penny to a bank account and if you get caught, the worst they would ever do is they would put you for a couple of months into a white-collar, minimum-security resort! Shit, we should be so lucky! Do you know, they have conjugal visits there?

          • Re:The bubble is back! (Score:5, Funny)

            by iknowcss (937215) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:56AM (#24415815) Homepage
            I have a bad feeling that all of this is going to bring us to a conversation that involves the phrase "pound-me-in-the-ass prison"

          • Re:The bubble is back! (Score:5, Funny)

            by sharpone (706018) on Thursday July 31 2008, @09:24AM (#24416341)

            But I suspect /.ers don't have that kinda cash on hand.

            But they could easily get some. Not legally, but round off a few fractions of a penny to a bank account and if you get caught, the worst they would ever do is they would put you for a couple of months into a white-collar, minimum-security resort! Shit, we should be so lucky! Do you know, they have conjugal visits there?

            I'm a married man, and I haven't had a conjugal visit in 6 months.

            • Re:The bubble is back! (Score:5, Informative)

              by AmaDaden (794446) on Thursday July 31 2008, @09:10AM (#24416071)
              It's a bit messy but it's something like this...
              1) barrow some stock from some and promise to give it back in the following few(i forget the longest you can do this for) months.
              2) Sell it.
              3) Wait for said stock to fall.
              4) Buy it at what you hope is a lower price.
              5) give it back to the owner.

              It's called selling short because you can only have it sold for a 'short' period before you have to buy it back again. Basically you bet that said stock will fall. As strange as it sounds it's fairly common in Wall Street

              • Re:The bubble is back! (Score:4, Informative)

                by flitty (981864) on Thursday July 31 2008, @09:22AM (#24416291)
                Naked Short Selling (while we are off topic) is doing the same thing, but borrowing the same "stock" several times (since you have a short time before you actually have to hand over the paper) and creating "virtual" stocks that you then sell short. Absolutely destructive and devaluing of stocks. For a little audio discussion, I think it's this link [npr.org]

                • Re:The bubble is back! (Score:5, Insightful)

                  by afabbro (33948) on Thursday July 31 2008, @11:44AM (#24419017)

                  Absolutely destructive and devaluing of stocks.

                  Funny, The Economist covered short-selling this week and discussed why selling, even naked short-selling, is good for the markets. Hmmm, who would I trust - the 150-year-old Economist, the best newsmagazine in the world, which is staffed by people who've forgotten more about economics and finance than the best MBAs ever learn, or...NPR, staffed by Vasser socialites whose dads contributed to political parties. Hmmm.

              • Re:The bubble is back! (Score:5, Informative)

                by LotsOfPhil (982823) on Thursday July 31 2008, @10:01AM (#24417015)
                It's not messy (as in complicated) and it isn't strange. It is just a way to bet that a stock will go down. No stranger than a put option.
                I am not sure where the terms "long" and "short" come from, but I don't think that short has any relation to what you are saying. You borrow the stock for an indeterminate amount of time. The entity loaning you the stock has the ability to ask for it back at any time.
                It is uncommon because, unlike owning a stock/being "long", you have unlimited downside risk. If the stock keeps going up, you lose more and more money. Also, there has to be someone willing to lend the stock.
                As always, Wikipedia:
                Short selling [wikipedia.org]
                Put option [wikipedia.org]

  • I'm not sure this is as good as it sounds (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:13AM (#24415215)

    I know that many people will say that perks like these are only positives because they can only make people happier about their job, which is good for the employee and good for the employer as well.

    I would like to suggest that it's not all roses in reality. I have worked at places where the employer provided lots of cushy perks and I found that it tends to attract a certain type of employee: the type who wants the job not because they like the work, but because they like the perks. In my experience this type of employee is not the best for the company; and what's worse, the general working environment tends to become antiproductive even for employees who otherwise would be more productive.

    I have found that in Silicon Valley companies, there is almost a sense of pride taken in how unstructured the working environment is. The "cool, hip" companies are the ones that encourage their employees to engage in nerf gun fights, have parties every Friday, and generally play around on company time. Sometimes it is hard for me to believe that these companies can be globally competitive, but maybe companies all over the world are all doing the same things.

    I personally believe that there is a fine balance between too much carrot, and too much stick, but that the answer certainly does not come from throwing the stick out completely. I am most motivated when there are expectations of me, and I have worked at companies where expectations are disturbingly low. I honestly believe that most people, even if they won't admit it, need a bit of structure in their working environment to be most productive.

    There is definitely a desire for people to believe that the best working environment is the one where the employer puts the least demands on its employees and gives all of the best perks possible, and that such an environment would make everyone more productive if only employers weren't so pig-headed and could just realize that ... but I think this is really wishful thinking. It actually worries me that software companies in the USA are often like this because somewhere there must be companies that Just Get Shit Done (India maybe?) without all of the frivolities and eventually, they're going to dominate. And I want the software industry in the USA to stay healthy because that's how I earn my living.

    By the way, I think that it would be hard to out-cushy Google. Their campus is like Club Med and I have a hard time believing that they get anything close to maximum productivity out of their workforce because of it.

    Posting AC because obviously I don't want my current or past employers or coworkers to somehow get word of this and get pissed off at me.

    • I think there is a balance that is needed. A boring, rigid office will stifle interest and energy, but if it's too silly an office then it's hard to concentrate when the time is right.

      Granted, I've never seen companies pay for daily muffins and stuff (i wonder how many aren't eaten?), but letting your employees have flex time usually lowers stress levels, especially for those with kids.

    • Carrot and Stick (Score:5, Insightful)

      by UncleWilly (1128141) * <UncleWilly07@@@gmail...com> on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:28AM (#24415429)

      The only carrot I have ever seen is a paycheck, everything else is a stick.

    • Re:I'm not sure this is as good as it sounds (Score:5, Insightful)

      by HungryHobo (1314109) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:44AM (#24415665)
      Nothing wrong with a decent environment. Keep in mind that particularly in tech companies getting the best can make a big difference. A great coder can get more done than 10 mediocre ones but only cost 2 or 3 times as much to pay. The best and brightest who are already earning enough that money isn't a big problem in their lives are also more likely to want to work somewhere where they're happy rather than going for that extra 5K per year. Sure you could just up the pay but if the cost of the perks/parties is less than what you'd have to pay those same people to keep them in a horrible workplace then you're better off going with the snacks and cola. that being said, people who are not decent workers should be dropped like a rock if they're simply not getting the work done.

    • Re:I'm not sure this is as good as it sounds (Score:5, Insightful)

      by JoeMerchant (803320) on Thursday July 31 2008, @09:01AM (#24415915)

      To paraphrase the parent and add my own perspective: the perks aren't the problem if the people are productive.

      Lunch ordered in costs maybe $7 to $15 a head, and unless your employees would be bringing brown bags and eating them at their desk, saves at least 30 minutes of travel and waiting time to and from getting lunch. So, call cost of lunch $11, in return for 30 minutes of productivity - how many of your employees earn less than $22 an hour? And, those that do earn less than $22 an hour probably really appreciate the free lunch, possibly enough that they won't be jumping ship to a company down the street that might pay them $2 an hour more.... Most Google'ers are notoriously underpaid on a cash basis.

      Free gym membership - $30 per month - this one is a little more esoteric, and I can see how working out actually takes time away from working on other things, but if the gym is conveniently located to work, it discourages people from getting a gym membership near their home, makes their life more work-centric, and possibly improves their cardio-vascular health - which actually does have a direct positive effect on cerebral productivity.... Similarly for the doctor on-site one day a week, convenient, health benefiting, time saving, and the cost is near trivial when you compare it to the benefits...

      Now, this is all moot if your employees simply show up to take advantage of the benefits and don't actually do anything productive otherwise... but, these are likely the same employees you find at perkless companies who spend their time surfing the web, making personal phone calls, and leaving their post to run errands 10 hours a week and more. (and posting lengthy responses on /. (oops!)).

  • This isn't that unusual (Score:4, Insightful)

    by neoform (551705) <djneoform@gmail.com> on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:17AM (#24415293) Homepage

    From what I heard, they had $33 million in capital, strawberries, checkups and BBQs don't use that kind of cash. Over staffing will however. Nothing in this article makes me think they're doing anything over the top like private jet rides to Las Vegas.

  • How Long? (Score:5, Informative)

    by doomicon (5310) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:18AM (#24415301) Homepage Journal

    " how long will their $25 million VC funding last at this rate?"

    Based on my late 90's Start up runs in NYC, I would say the Doctor and Free Gym Personal Trainer will be gone in two weeks, the food in a month, and 75% of the employees in 3 months.

    Stories like this may even bring PuD back to F**kedcompany postings.

    • Re:How Long? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by tillerman35 (763054) on Thursday July 31 2008, @09:25AM (#24416357)
      I worked for a startup company that burned through $40M in six months. It's actually pretty easy to figure out when to jump ship based on the number and quality of perks. When they get rid of the bottled water and put in one of those big coolers with the 20-gallon bottle, it's time to leave. Prior to that, just enjoy the dot-com salary and catered lunches while they last and watch the slow slide into insolvency with quiet amusement.

  • If the bubble's back, it will burst soon (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Kazymyr (190114) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:18AM (#24415311) Journal

    From my experience with using Cuil for a few days, it is utterly and completely useless in its present form. Yes it's nice visually, but it's a search engine got heaven's sake - visually pleasant is nothing if the searches don't return anything useful.

  • Needs a lot of work (Score:4, Insightful)

    by JoeCommodore (567479) <larry@portcommodore.com> on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:20AM (#24415323) Homepage

    I think there will be a pop.

    Have you tried it? Part of the draw may be the speed and the images next to the search results, but realistically, not really the best results, and the pictures that come up on the results are stock photos - not any relation to the site content at all. (if you have your own domain, search for it and see what I am talking about)

  • How many employees do they have? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by gravyface (592485) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:20AM (#24415341)

    It sounds expensive, but if there's 10 employees, that VC funding could last years.

    Google set a precedent for perks, so it's only natural that companies are going to try to repeat that success for recruiting purposes alone.

  • Is this unusual? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by PackMan97 (244419) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:21AM (#24415345) Homepage
    There are a ton of companies out there that offer free snackies, gyms, on-site doctors, etc. For the most part they are prudent financial decisions. free snacks: the cost is VERY minimal compared to the good will generated and assuming it's stocked internally, you don't have to allow an outside vendor in to stock machines improving your security. gyms: healthy employees cost less to insure. healthy employees miss less work. healthy employees are more attractive and will lead to improved workplace chemistry. healthy employees impress customers. on-site doc: employees only need to take 30m off work to see the doc instead of having to get in a car, drive to their doc, wait, wait, wait, see doc, drive back to work which is 2 hrs minimum. so, while a lot of these really seem excessive, they aren't.

    • Re:Is this unusual? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Inda (580031) <slash.20.inda@spamgourmet.com> on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:48AM (#24415709) Journal

      Not unusual, no. Mine you, I've only been working in this company 10 years...

      Lunch is ordered in every single day.

      We have a subsidised restaurant and sandwich bar. The coffee bars take the piss out of Starbucks.

      Huge fridges burst with snacks and drinks.

      Free coffee and soft drinks from machines in each corner of each floor in each building.

      Bowls of strawberries and muffins lie around the rest area.

      Um, stale sandwiches and fruit left over from long meetings..?

      The company pays for a personal trainer and gym membership for everyone.

      Fully stocked gym, several trainers, but only one working at a time, one physiotherapist. Open 24/7. Treatment room looks well equipped although I've never needed to used it.

      A doctor calls round each Friday, after the weekly barbeque, to see if everyone's in good health.

      Doctor is in his office 5 times a week. Two nurses are always there.

      Employees drift in an out at times that suit themselves.

      90% of us are on personal contracts. I'm supposed to do 37 hours a week, I'll only do 35 this week though as I want to go home early on Friday. Do my work and everyone's happy. We refuse to talk about people being 30 minutes late in the mornings - it's not productive. If anything, we'll complain when others are coming in at 8am and not going home until 8pm. People working long hours is not productive, it creates a bad atmosphere, if there's work for two people, employ a second person.

      This is a massive company in the UK. My site alone employs 2,000 people.

  • ..and? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by RMH101 (636144) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:23AM (#24415357)
    Single post, now retracted on someone's blog.
    Plus, how much does a bowl of strawberries cost?
    Buy lunch in? Perhaps it works out cheaper than maintaining a kitchen and staff. This is a non-story.

    The cynic in me also thinks that maybe Cuil want people to think they're young, confident and worth investing in.
    Their search engine seems pretty average at best from what I've seen so far, yet strangely they're getting lots of media coverage. Is this "story" part of that?

    • Re:..and? (Score:4, Funny)

      by Applekid (993327) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:30AM (#24415475)

      Plus, how much does a bowl of strawberries cost?

      The strawberries are cheap. The 12 female naked virgins that serve them to you body-shot style are what costs.

  • I figured out their business plan: (Score:5, Funny)

    by MMC Monster (602931) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:24AM (#24415365)

    Be on the front page of /. every week, boosting their add impressions.

  • Different headline (Score:4, Funny)

    by radarjd (931774) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:25AM (#24415389)
    Perhaps the headline should be "Cuil Proves that VCs are Still Vulnerable to Hype"?

  • Whatever. (Score:5, Informative)

    by MrMacman2u (831102) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:30AM (#24415479) Journal
    Cuil Sucks. Seriously, it sucks real hard.

    I liked their privacy policy and thought their approach to searh results was unique and fresh, it just needed a bit of getting used to.

    So, I have tried using it in place of Google since it was announced.

    I gave up today in shear frustration.

    Take me home Google! I missed you so!

  • Cuil? No. True Knowledge? Yes! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by tetrahedrassface (675645) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:32AM (#24415503) Journal
    Not sure if there is bubble but one thing I did learn about during the Cuil-crash-and-burn-at-launch fiasco was a new search technology out of Cambridge that is in beta right now. It is named true knowledge, and uses natural language strings for search, and wiki style user submitted knowledge base in conjunction with a standard search engine [trueknowledge.com]. It is pretty neat and promising search technology that I found searching after looking that the shorcomings of Cuil. I highly recommend getting a beta account at true knowledge if you are interested in improving search results in a fine grained approach.

  • The Bubble HAS Burst. (Score:5, Informative)

    by imstanny (722685) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:36AM (#24415549)
    ...for financial institutions. I work at a Financial Firm in NYC, and we don't even have coffee makers in the kitchen! And they took away the vending machine. Bottled water has gone up from $12 for 2 cases to $16. I've been reduced to filling up my bottles at the sink, and shorting Google. If you're a Shadenfreude, you've enjoyed this post.

  • Not for long (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Alkonaut (604183) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:40AM (#24415609)

    Regardless of the cost of any perks they may enjoy there, a search engine company needs to have a search engine to live. To me, cuil appears to be a quick hack without the huge index it claims, and without a decent ranking algorithm.

    As an example, I did a search for my home town (a really tiny place, 1000 people or so). The top 10 google results included the towns unofficial homepage, a googlemap centered on the town, the wikipedia article for the town, a couple of weather sites with forecasts for the town and so on. All relevant, none repeated.

    The first page of cuil displayed *seven* "find hotels in $town" (believe me, there are no hotels) or "find single women in $town" (same story there...). A lot of these spam sites were even repeated five or six times among the first results. A japaneese version of a result was listed higher than the english version of the same result, and so on.

  • Free Lunches and stuff (Score:4, Informative)

    by KillerEggRoll (582521) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:40AM (#24415611)

    I just left a company (unfortunately) that had lunch catered daily, stocked drinks, had a heavily-used foosball table, and (un)officially had flex time among many other benefits. This company happens to be a market leader with no debt and VERY profitable revenue stream.

    The company was fortunate to have certain events happen at opportune times, but the benefits were needed to lure a skilled workforce into joining the team. Cuil will probably fall flat, but the "excesses" are warranted IMO.

    :-( If I didn't have to relocate, I would never have left.

  • Too bad their search engine sucks... (Score:4, Funny)

    by aardwolf64 (160070) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:42AM (#24415639) Homepage

    Too bad their search engine sucks... I searched for: homepage, and my homepage wasn't in the results. Contrast that with Google, where my homepage is the #1 hit.

  • Anecdotal evidence Cuil sucks (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Slightly Askew (638918) on Thursday July 31 2008, @09:35AM (#24416539) Journal

    I was searching for a preacher I read about in weird news who ran his motorcycle off stage during a sermon.

    http://www.cuil.com/search?q=Jeff+Harlow+preacher+motorcycle [cuil.com]

    http://www.google.com/search?&q=jeff%20harlow%20motorcycle%20preacher&sourceid=firefox [google.com]

    Cuil: No results were found for: Jeff Harlow preacher motorcycle

    Google: Every link on page one was about this incident.

    Enjoy the perks while they last, folks.

  • Perks, yes. Headcount, no. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Animats (122034) on Thursday July 31 2008, @10:08AM (#24417135) Homepage

    Cuil isn't overspending. I've been over there. They only have about 30 employees. They didn't overdo the server hardware, either.

    Bringing in lunch makes sense. They're on a quiet suburban street with only one modest, overcrowded restaurant nearby. Cuil is too small for a cafeteria. Bringing in food saves considerable staff time compared to sending everyone out for lunch.

    That's not the problem. The search results are the problem, of course.

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