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Boing Boing Founder Warns of "Internet AIDS"
Posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Mon Nov 19, 2007 05:42 PM
from the orwell-was-an-optimist dept.
from the orwell-was-an-optimist dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Cory Doctorow, founder of Boing Boing, says he doesn't have a problem in principle with the automated network defense systems that guard the Internet against malware, spamigation bots, and other network nasties. However, in his article 'The Future of Internet Immune Systems,' he bemoans the problems caused by 'Internet autoimmune disorder' — where the network defenses designed to block network attacks are automated and instantaneous, but the systems in place to reverse erroneous lockdowns are manual and unresponsive."
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Submission: Boing Boing Founder Warns of "Internet AIDS by Anonymous Coward
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Internet AIDS (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
It's your pr0n collection what done it! Shoulda got one of them keyboard covers.
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Maybe, but what the summary describes is an autoimmune syndrome and has nothing to do with AIDS. This, of course, raises the question of why AIDS was even mentioned in the subject.
Could someone go and see the article ? I'd rather not do so myself, because of the Firefox CPU/memory consumption bug would make restarting the browser a neccessity afterwards, and I have a lot of tabs already open.
automation is only one-way (Score:4, Insightful)
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This already exists (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:This already exists (Score:5, Insightful)
These various Spam Blocking Lists (or SBLs) are almost all automated. A few of them let you push a button and get removed. However some of them require manually emailing an explanation and still others try to extort money from you to speed up the unblocking process. We didn't even send any spam. The previous owners of the IP did.
If this isn't a strong argument that blacklisting systems are unethical, I don't know what is. Imagine being targeted by vigilantes because you bought a house which was previously occupied by a sex offender and so the addreess is listed on the local sex offender registry. That's essentially what's happening here.
There is no such thing as an "evil IP address" any more than there is an "evil house." These systems are technically, logically, as well as ethically flawed. Anybody who buys into blacklist-based technology is a reactionary and a bigot.
Parent
Re:This already exists (Score:4, Insightful)
Let's pretend I agree that SBL's are immoral, I'd gladly take the hit to my moral standing if it means the (even less moral) spammers can't get as much of their crap to my inbox.
No one sane has ever said that block lists are the ultimate solution for the fight against spam, it is a very useful and very effective supplement to other measures. If something better comes along, I'd gladly use it.
If you don't like block lists, don't use them.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If this isn't a strong argument that blacklisting systems are unethical, I don't know what is.
It's a strong argument for changing providers more than anything else. The abuse department that found and killed the previous customer should have done a sweep of those IPs with all the usual places then get them removed. For professional abuse departments this is a matter of doing business, and is unfortunately part of what makes the Internet go 'round whether anyone likes it or not.
A black list is a list of domain or IPs the provider of the black list wishes to list. The provider of the list gets to
Re:Blacklists (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Blacklist timeouts (Score:3, Informative)
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If you're getting hammered with DoS attacks, spam, interweb herpaids or whatever TFA is about, you block the source. Blocking an IP address has nothing to do with some irrational fear of 32-bit numbers - it blocks the person using that number from destroying your network.
Key point being the word "your" in "your network." Do whatever the hell you want on your own network. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about ISPs who take it upon themselves to filter the email to their own users based on
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I've been in your shoes with large e-mail service providers. One in particular (let's call it Company Y) treated my e-mail in each of the following ways over the course of a year: spam box (slightly tolerable), blackhole (never got delivered), and just plain rejected at the MTA level. I made an effort to contact them about whitelisting my domain (as I was not on any known blacklist), but it seemed to fall on deaf
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More like metapHorrible (Score:3, Funny)
Trigger trippers (Score:2, Interesting)
Yep, almost as bad as trying to get set up with service in the first place.
I guess the way to foil these critters is to try to trip as many as possible. Then again, the intarweb mischief-makers will probably do just that.
Please stay on the line, your call is important to us.
Automatic Forgiveness in Autonomic Systems... (Score:5, Insightful)
EG, in a scan detector, forgive 1 scan per minute/hour and eventually release the block. This saves a call to tech support, and papers over a lot of sins when building an automatic system.
same thing happens with p2p blocklists (Score:2)
Auto-immune != immuno-deficient (Score:5, Insightful)
The summary title is stupid.
AIDS is not auto-immune; it is immuno-deficient. The FA doesn't mention AIDS. Try this [wikipedia.org].
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Re:Auto-immune != immuno-deficient (Score:4, Informative)
There are many, many examples of problems when that balance is disrupted. AIDS on one hand when you don't have enough of an immune response, Lupus when your immune system is too jazzed up. Furthermore, the immune system is incredibly complex and has layers and layers of feedback systems, redundancies, control loops and things we really don't understand well. I suppose AIDS would be a Windows box hooked up to a cable modem. Not long for this world.... Lupus might be what Doctorow is complaining about - too much "immune" activity.
Unlike the Internet, the immune system has had millions of years to evolve to it's present state - and it is still hardly a perfect system. Perhaps some up and coming "Internet Immunologist" might start out with this course [mit.edu] to take advantage of those millenniums of experiments
Or perhaps we should just chuck the immune system thing and try to come up with a car analogy.
Parent
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Glad someone spotted this (Score:3, Insightful)
Auto-immune means that the body's immune system starts to attack itself, a condition which is largely incompatible with the one mentioned. AIDS deals with the destruction of the immune system by outside causes (whatever they may be). Autoimmune diseases cover the body's own immune system going haywire and destroying the body.
Analogy: AIDS is a demolition crew, Auto-immune is "Extreme Makover: Home
Bunch of cash (Score:2, Insightful)
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The hero is a neckbeard, it's set in a world where everything wants to be free, and the main part of the action takes place in Disneyland. Oddly and unbelievably, the author will not understand the ironic incongruity of that...
Not AIDS (Score:2, Informative)
Not AIDS (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Not AIDS (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
hmm (Score:5, Funny)
the systems in place to reverse erroneous lockdowns are manual and unresponsive
Anyone who is married knows how much of a dilemma this presents...
Guess we'll have to... (Score:3, Funny)
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That's not AIDS (Score:3, Informative)
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I've had this experience (Score:3, Interesting)
Anyway. It turns out that spammers could blindly use my webproxy to push email to my local port 25 and send mail using it. Damn clever spammers. I figured it out after my email system croaked and I looked at the logs and mailq. (crap, 1000 spam messages in the outbox, originated on my system).
So I'd been a tool, and used, and it was my damn fault. I fixed it (uninstalled the proxy) and started to repair the damage.
One of the items of fallout was that the RBL lists had nailed my IP address as a spammer. Fair enough. But getting them to turn it off was a royal pain in the ass and took days - even though their notes described exactly how the spam was delivered through my system and it was easily verifiable that it was no longer an issue.
It left me pretty peeved, and I've never used an RBL since.
The pool is closed! (Score:3, Funny)
Whitelists and Blacklists (Score:2)
There probably is one, but it's hidden behind an opaque trust network of people who know about it, but who I don't know, though we have that SW relationship (need/have) in common. Let's see if the manual broadcast still works.
that's the second article i read today (Score:2)
"Lust, Caution" prompts virus, medical warnings [reuters.com]
although this was quite the amusing bit:
Doctorow not a founder of BoingBoing (Score:3, Informative)
Credit card lockdown (Score:3, Informative)
My wife and I drove over three hours to a different state to buy furniture. On the way, we stopped at a gas station and bought gas. Apparently, our credit union doesn't believe in such things as traveling from state to state, and flagged this is a suspicious transaction. Nevermind that we go to this neighboring state regularly and their "system" has never seen this as unusual. Of course, the card was silently suspended. This has happened a few times in the past, but we'd always received a phone call within minutes of it happening. No such call, so we remained oblivious and continued on.
Proceeded to drive to our destination, spent a few MORE hours picking out furniture, went to pay, and... Whoops. Luckily I managed to dig out a credit card from the depths of my wallet that I'd forgotten about, and which still worked, luckily. But it easily could have been a completely wasted day.
Of course, calling the credit union about it didn't help. They aren't open on the weekends. They can shut your account down kid, but they won't turn it back on again.
Imagine that. People occasionally drive into a neighboring state and... buy gas on the way! If that's not suspicious, what the hell is, right?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course, calling the credit union about it didn't help. They aren't open on the weekends. They can shut your account down kid, but they won't turn it back on again.
You don't call your credit union. You call the credit card company.
I belong to a credit union too, and I have a CC issued by my credit union. I bought an expensive piece of electronics, first major purchase on the card. On a Sunday afternoon, no less. That went through...but 30 minutes later, another transaction was declined. The cred
Waiting for Total Collapse (Score:2)
More and more it is left to the end user or consumer to battle their way though e-mail and voice systems to undo the damage inflicted by automated systems. To add insult to injury it seems that the blame for these problems is always placed on the customer, not on bad system design. I guess that this is all part of the "Leave you bag at the door" attitude that assumes that every customer is a shop
Simple rule (Score:2)
A Simple Well Thought Out Solution (Score:2)
I'll simply get my HERF gun and this time things will not end badly!
(If you think this is OT, you need to read more Doctorow)Cory's A Cool Guy And All But... (Score:3, Informative)
The internet is no longer a series of tubes. (Score:4, Funny)
AIDS? (Score:5, Insightful)
Spam is email that forces itself upon me -- that can be "Internet rape."
What Comcast is doing to bittorrent traffic: "Internet genocide."
And the projected brownouts as described by that other article on the front page right now: "Internet Alzheimer's."
These attention-grabbing headlines are so accurate and informative!
Not founder, not AIDS, otherwise, w00t! (Score:4, Informative)
* I didn't found Boing Boing -- I co-edit it with Mark Frauenfelder (who *did* found it, along with Carla Sinclair), Xeni Jardin and David Pescovitz
* I didn't use the word AIDS in the article, and I don't think that this is comparable to AIDS; I used "autoimmune disorder," as in "allergy" or even "lupus" -- that is, any time when the systems that are supposed to protect you end up attacking you
Otherwise, many w00ts for this making it to the
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