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Apple Fixes 'Misleading' Leopard Firewall Settings
Posted by
Zonk
on Thu Nov 15, 2007 05:23 PM
from the walls-need-to-be-just-a-teensy-bit-thicker dept.
from the walls-need-to-be-just-a-teensy-bit-thicker dept.
4 for 52 writes "ZDNet is reporting that Apple has fessed up to at least three serious design weaknesses in the new application-based firewall that ships with Mac OS X Leopard. The acknowledgment comes less than a month after independent researchers threw cold water on Apple's claim that Leopard's firewall can block all incoming connections. The firewall patches come 24 hours after a Mac OS X update that provided cover for at least 41 security vulnerabilities."
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OS X Leopard Firewall Flawed 300 comments
cycoj writes with a report in the German IT magazine Heise, taking a look at the new OS X Leopard firewall. They find it flawed. When setting access to specific services and programs to only allow SSH access, for example, they found that a manually started service was still accessible. From the article: "So the first step after starting Leopard should be to activate the firewall. The obvious choice to do so is the option to 'Set access to specific services and programs,' which promises more control over network traffic. Mac OS X automatically enters all shared resources set up by the user, such as 'Remote login' for SSH servers, into the list of accessible resources... However, initial functional testing quickly dispels any feeling of improved security. A service started for testing purposes was able to be addressed from outside without any difficulty. The firewall records this occurrence... Even with the firewall set to 'Block all incoming connections' ports to netbios, ntp and other services were still open... Specifically these results mean that users can't rely on the firewall."
Submission: Apple Fixes 'Misleading' Leopard Firewall Settings by Anonymous Coward
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As usual, other considerations... (Score:5, Informative)
They won't be able to answer that any more than they know what to pick on the Firewall preferences screen.
So what Apple does is a little bit of deciding for the user what makes sense. The first step was going to an intelligent application level firewall that makes it a lot more functional and easier to use. The next was making some policies that allow services Apple considers "essential" to the whole Mac OS X user experience. And like it or not, Bonjour is an integral part of that.
Anyone who knows enough to know, for certain, that they don't want, e.g., Bonjour open, also knows how to use any of a number of free or commercial commandline or graphical options to set up ipfw or other network level protections any way they wish. That's the bottom line: anyone who knows enough to "know" they "really" want to disable all incoming connections can still easily do so.
This is about making security easy for typical, average users, while still keeping things that make the Mac experience "just work".
Now, I *do* wish that Apple had one more option: Block *everything*, but explain, hey, this is going to break some things like Bonjour, etc., so be SURE that you want to do this, and don't complain if all of a sudden your AppleTV syncing and iTunes sharing and automatic local machine discovery no longer work.
Apple describes all of this very explicitly here [apple.com]:
The 10.5.0 Application Firewall blocked all but:
Processes that are running as UID 0
mDNSResponder
The 10.5.1 Application Firewall blocks all but:
configd, which implements DHCP and other network configuration services
mDNSResponder, which implements Bonjour
racoon, which implements IPSec
So, while I haven't extensively tested yet, it does NOT appear to allow UID 0 processes, but rather only the above processes.
And from here [apple.com]:
Re:As usual, other considerations... (Score:5, Funny)
Is there even anything left to say?
Parent
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For the record, I saw the writeup and was hoping you'd have written a response, and am glad to see you did. Those of us who are capable of understanding facts and logic, rather than knee-jerk pretending that "w000, this is just as bad as Vista on a good day" and all that, appreci
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I wonder why you would be hoping to see his response unless he had some sort of pattern to his posts... What do you call someone who, without fail, defends a particular company?
Informative/insightful, in this case. He knows what he's talking about, and has the communication skills to present it in such a way that anyone who isn't blind to reality will understand. And it's not so much "defend(ing) a particular company", it's more about sharing his subject matter expertise with the group. Just because someone is correct and consistent doesn't somehow undermine their credibility - quite the opposite, in fact.
Re:As usual, other considerations... (Score:5, Insightful)
But... can anyone here honestly say that if you took the entire story about the 'dodgy' firewall and replaced Apple with Microsoft that there wouldn't be people literally screaming themselves blue in the face about how insecure MS is _by_design_?
Seriously, if an MS-shipped firewall decided (without telling you) that 'block all incoming connections' really meant 'block all incoming connections except for MSN Messenger and oh, I don't know, maybe Media Player', would you be making excuses about how it was really necessary and understandable to deliver the "Microsoft Experience(TM)"?
No, I didn't think so either.
Yes, Apple should be applauded for recognising a problem in their software, as well as a problem in the way their software presents itself, and fixing it.
But they should not be forgiven for creating the problem in the first place because their hearts were in the right place. That kind of thinking leads to bad places.
Parent
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MS has a well deserved crappy reputation. Apple has a well deserved good reputation.
Historically speaking, MS would avoid, pretend it doesn't exist, refuse to take the blame, and release a patch 2 weeks later that just happened to fix this issue.
Yeah,Apple screwed up but they are fixing it and the admit it. Integerity can go a long way.
In your world it seems nothing and nobody can every be forgiven for making a mistake. How sad.
Appl ewas very clear about what it does:
The 10.5.0 Applica
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ON MEE-SA-PLANET, WEE-SA CALL A BIG MAC A NABU ROYALE... How's daaad????
Re:As usual, other considerations... (Score:4, Informative)
I admit in my original post my words were inaccurate.
I meant something more like "forgive, but don't forget". Also more like I said in my reply to your reply.
Again, apologies for inaccurate and/or argumentative tone.
Parent
Re:As usual, other considerations... (Score:5, Funny)
I was about to quote you and make you eat those words. But you had to go read you post and post a nice apology.
How can I insult you now, and retain the high ground?
Jeez, we get anymore people like you on slashdot it might get all 'reasonable' and 'adult' like.
Parent
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Re:As usual, other considerations... (Score:4, Insightful)
There is a significant difference between Apple's firewall settings and MS's use of DirectX. Apple changed the way the firewall worked to be application level and sandboxed the services that it let by the firewall. Unfortunately they misleadingly labeled that setting. When users tested it, they became upset. Apple needs to keep customers happy in order to make money, so they changed it to conform to what customers wanted. It is good business and the way the market is supposed to work. Apple wants to make money, so acting out of what could be called avarice, they give users what they want.
Microsoft has monopoly influence in the desktop OS market as well as a few other markets. They included ActiveX partly to motivate sales, but also partly to try to make Web applications tied to their monopoly to lock in customers and help leverage that OS monopoly into a Web monopoly and into the online media and services markets. It makes them a lot of money, even if it brings negative consequences to users. Users don't want to be locked in making migrations and cross-platform tools hard. Users don't gain benefit from MS taking over other markets. Because MS has a monopoly, however, it doesn't matter what users want. Since they don't have to keep users happy, MS has literally no financial motivation to fix the security problems ActiveX creates and they have significant financial motivation to not fix it.
On a very basic level, a monopolist will almost always be worse at innovating and giving users what they want than a company competing in a healthy market. The #1 best way I can think of to fix all of Window's security problems is to break up MS. Split the company into two new companies, forbid them from any non-public communication or collusion, and give both the rights to all the code, copyrights, trademarks, and patents in Windows. Users want security and both will start making real improvements since otherwise the other will be getting the money from consumers. It is my firm belief that until MS's monopoly is broken one way or another, MS will never be able to compete with Apple or Linux when it comes to security. They just aren't motivated.
Parent
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Microsoft has monopoly influence in the desktop OS market as well as a few other markets. They included ActiveX partly to motivate sales, but also partly to try to make Web applications tied to their monopoly to lock in customers and help leverage that OS monopoly into a Web monopoly and into the online media and services markets. It makes them a lot of money, even if it brings negative consequences to users. Users don't want to be locked in making migrations and cross-platform tools hard. Users don't gain benefit from MS taking over other markets. Because MS has a monopoly, however, it doesn't matter what users want. Since they don't have to keep users happy, MS has literally no financial motivation to fix the security problems ActiveX creates and they have significant financial motivation to not fix it.
What ??? Do you even read what you type? Since when is making money bad and trying to get maximum market share for your platform/service bad? People weren't forced to **DEVELOP** applications for activeX even if it came installed with the OS. They were certainly not tied in or locked in any way shape or form. Technically competent people were capable of easily disabling it (which is bad for the newbies.. i agree) Other software firms still had the option of creating their own standard. Hello... Java??
On a very basic level, a monopolist will almost always be worse at innovating and giving users what they want than a company competing in a healthy market. The #1 best way I can think of to fix all of Window's security problems is to break up MS. Split the company into two new companies, forbid them from any non-public communication or collusion, and give both the rights to all the code, copyrights, trademarks, and patents in Windows. Users want security and both will start making real improvements since otherwise the other will be getting the money from consumers. It is my firm belief that until MS's monopoly is broken one way or another, MS will never be able to compete with Apple or Linux when it comes to security.
Wow
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What ??? Do you even read what you type? Since when is making money bad and trying to get maximum market share for your platform/service bad?
Making money and maximizing market share is fine, when they lead to increased efficiency and innovation in the market. That is why capitalism is so successful, because in a capitalist system competition for custom leads to innovation and efficiency. The problem is monopolies break capitalism and lead to reduced innovation and inefficiency. It is sort of like combining the worst aspects of socialism and the worst aspects of capitalism. That is why abusing monopolies is illegal, pretty much everywhere. They
Re:As usual, other considerations... (Score:5, Insightful)
I disagree that Microsoft doesn't have any financial motivation to fix the problems in ActiveX and their various technologies. Take a look at IE7. Where are all the ActiveX exploits that target IE7? Microsoft has a HUGE installed userbase that depends on IE/IIS and Visual Studio for development. They have a huge incentive to keep that cash cow secure.
From real world experience, I can tell you that Microsoft does just fine with security. I have hands on experience with literally thousands of desktops and hundreds of servers running 2000/XP/2003 and zero security incidents. With good firewalls, security policies, group policies, WSUS, AV, etc. it is possible to secure Microsoft networks. You just have to know what you are doing and stay abreast of the latest developments. It also helps if you use some open source tools like Snort, nmap and the like to keep an eye on what is going on behind the scenes.
The original point of my first post still stands though. As Apple moves forward, they are going to have to face the same challenges that Microsoft faced... balancing the user expectation of an easy to use interface and "it just works" mentality with security needs.
Parent
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Were you actively using computers when ActiveX was introduced? ... Perhaps you can realize that at the time that Microsoft introduced ActiveX, there weren't any other technologies out there that allowed the content delivery and functionality with the ease that ActiveX and IE did.
Yup, one year after Sun introduced a Java runtime for Windows and MS started bundling a broken version to undermine the platform (perhaps you recall the antitrust conviction).
However the reason that they rolled it out was to enable developers to target web users with applications.
... and to make sure those applications were tied to Windows so that people could to easily target multiple platforms using the Web, a strategy they still pursue with their refusal to support newer Web technologies, or even older and capable Web technologies fully and in accordance with the specs.
You can't argue that it didn't allow content developers to get their content out there... even if 85% of it was unwanted. ;)
I can and do, however, argue th
Re:As usual, other considerations... (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, I've been working at a network security company for the last four years and have been reading detailed weekly reports for internal consumption, written by well regarded professionals. What, exactly is your expertise?
Everything has vulnerabilities. Linux and OS X boxes, have fewer, exposed for shorter periods of time, and less regularly exploited, especially in an automated fashion.
You did note that the new version of OS X ships with a MAC ported from SELinux and comes with all the services exposed by default preconfigured to run in sandboxes. And because it is included by default, unlike Linux distros, applications developed from now on can count on it and come preconfigured as well.
No, they're not because default Linux and OS X install have fewer exposed services and fewer known, unfixed vulnerabilities at any given point. Aside from that, most exploits are not directed, but automated and Windows is vastly more exposed to those attacks.
Please. The numbers belie your assertion. The average user, simply buying a Mac significantly reduces their risk of having their machine compromised.
Interested in finding Apple's place? Go to BlackHat, or DefCon, or one of the other big security conferences in the next year. When there, take a quick count of how many Mac laptops you see in use among security experts. It was upwards of 50% at the last one I went to, and it was a private conference for security experts at tier 1 network operators. Why do you suppose that is, because all those security experts are idiots and just not as brilliant as you are?
Parent
Re:As usual, other considerations... (Score:4, Insightful)
Umm, people were screaming themselves blue about how Apple's firewall was broken or fundamentally flawed or misleading. There were dozens of articles about it and hundreds of postings in discussion groups.
The difference between Apple and MS (or for that matter Linux developers and MS) is that Apple does not have a monopoly so they actually have to listen to their users and make changes to make them happy. They very quickly made sensible changes to make it clearer how the firewall behaves and addressed pretty much everyone's concerns, even those of people who really didn't know what they were talking about.
Security is a journey not a destination. Security is about trying to allow users to do what they want while stopping things they don't want from happening. There will always be security holes and room for improvement. Concentrating on mistakes made by any vendor is counter productive. So long as the vendor responds and fixes the problem and takes a responsible attitude, they're doing fine by me.
Parent
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Don't explain it away with "the apple experience". Apple stuffed up badly, and now have fixed it. Simple
Re:As usual, other considerations... (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
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Paying for Slashdot? *shakes head slowly*
Re:As usual, other considerations... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
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If you read the comments, you're ok, but only because the first couple of posts are usually about how misleading or just plain wrong the frontpage article is. If you came to this site and only read the frontpage article, you'd be getting LESS educated about technology, not more educated. Front page articles are wrong probably a solid third of the time, and not just a little wrong, but a lot wrong.
I mean a lot of people complain about the spelling
That's not the product. (Score:4, Insightful)
That's not the product. The product is the analysis and commentary and opinion posted ABOUT the content. Knowing viewpoints and trends can be as valuable as the content itself, if not more so.
Parent
What /. does (Score:4, Insightful)
- Filter the news so I don't have to read everything on every site, but can hit one site for all (or most of) the tech stuff that's relevant for me
- Provide a somewhat civil way to discuss the news
I didn't pay, but I also don't block the ads, and I see nothing wrong with paying for it. IfParent
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---- The 'product' here is aggregated stuff that flows in _after_ it has been placed online elsewhere
No, the 'product' is the service of aggregating all that content in one place, so you don't have to trawl all over the net looking for new places to get your snark on.
Aggregation doesn't just happen. It takes back-end tools to select, organize, and present all that 'stuff that flows in'. The Slashdot team wrote the software, built the database, and maintains the network that keeps it all going. The
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I think his comment was reasonable. Not at all lunatic fringe like some Roughly Drafted stuff can be.
Re:As usual, other considerations... (Score:5, Insightful)
Funny. Technically, I don't need to use the Web at all in coffee shops, so by your argument I should block all traffic. On the other hand, I prefer my computer to be functional, when that functionality does not pose a significant security risk. Guess what, I also have SSH enabled for access, even though I only need to access it occasionally. The service I originally referred to (Bonjour) is unlikely to pose a security risk, especially since in addition to finding an exploit in it, an attacker would have to find an exploit in the Mandatory Access Control sandbox OS X runs it in by default. I'm a lot more likely to be exploited by an attack on my Mail.app than by an attack on Bonjour. Do you also advocate that I do not check my e-mail while at the coffee shop?
Screw that. Half the benefit of Bonjour enabled chatting is that I can easily talk to people I don't have in my "buddy" list while at conferences and coffee shops. Sacrificing function out of unjustified fear is not my cup of tea.
Umm, okay, then don't use it. Good luck finding a capable first party GUI firewall configuration tool on a platform that is not riddled with security holes.
Honestly, it sounds to me like you're looking for something to complain about. I really wish people with your sort of an attitude on security would revisit your basic assumptions. Security is about allowing users to do what they want with a system, and prevent things they don't want from happening, especially without their permission. Reducing functionality just means users turn off security features or move to a system where they have more functionality. If I had a dollar for every time I've seen someone at a LAN party shut off their firewall completely because it was restricting something they wanted to do and was too hard to enable just that application/behavior... well, I'd have enough cash to buy a good steak and some scotch anyway.
Parent
Does it move files correctly? (Score:3, Informative)
Haven't tested, but the notes said yes. (Score:5, Informative)
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=306907 [apple.com]
- Addresses a potential data loss issue when moving files across partitions in the Finder.
Parent
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Its listed under system and finder.
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Re:Does it move files correctly? (Score:5, Funny)
Macs have one mouse button. Java is slow. You can't run Office on a Mac, so it's useless. Windows machines lock up every 14.5 minutes. Microsoft innovates (tm). An iPod can't play mp3s.
/ Myths are cool
Parent
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The multi-button mouse comes from Xerox: Smalltalk, Interlisp-D, and the Xerox Star office system.
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Skype vs. the Leopard firewall! (Score:3, Informative)
I had to re-download and install Skype, and now I have to run it with the firewall switched off. Pending a fixed Skype in 'a few weeks' [skype.com]. Aaaargh...
Time Machine doesn't work on my old-fashioned partitioned external hard disk (half is an NTFS partition for Windows backups...), the Leopard installer initially wouldn't detect my MacBook Pro's own hard disk, and my iMac got nearly deaded [apple.com] by the upgrade (fortunately I had SSH enabled, and was able to get in and run Software Update from the command line, and thus could install the important iMac updates). Oh, and it's all a little bit crashy. It's nearly fantastic - apart from those issues...
So don't use the firewall. (Score:2)
The firewall is not an essential component on a UNIX system the way it is on Windows, because you can actually turn off all listening ports and go "dead" without having to firewall off internal services that can't run without a TCP port open.
A computer system with no open ports is just as secure whether it's firewalled or not.
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Not all Unix systems. cf. OS X 10.5, which is a certified Unix.
A computer system with no open ports is just as secure whether it's firewalled or not.
Probably true on a modern system, but not a completely accurate statement. If there's flaws in the TCP stack, it doesn't
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"macosux" ... ? (Score:5, Funny)
Wow. Our lovely tag trolls have been forced to go all the way back to 1986.
I remember the endless "macs sux" ... "dos sux" ... repeat ad nauseam flamefests on BBSes. Evidently nothing has changed since we were all 8 and had nothing better to do than keep our parents from using the phone.
Seriously, people, if you don't want to hear about Mac OS X, is it really that hard to turn off the Apple stories in your /. preferences?
modes (Score:3, Interesting)
Basic is ideal for most folks, but if you're so inclined just click on the advanced tab and not only have more configuration options but also a through, detailed explanation oh what the firewall is actually doing.
That'd be a great feature.
Slightly Disingenuous Summary (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, that was an update for Mac OS X 10.4. This patch is for Mac OS X 10.5. The two are essentially unrelated, so trying to imply that this represents some kind of patch frenzy is at least a little disingenuous.
Misleading! (Score:3, Informative)
The three issues in the 10.5 firewall were the only security fixes for 10.5.
OT: IPv6 still isn't working for me. (Score:3, Interesting)
I upgraded from Tiger to Leopard last week and love it, except that I can no longer use IPv6. I've triple-checked my router, address, and prefix length manual settings and they're all correct. I just can't get out of the machine at all:
Even though I have an address and router set up, it doesn't seem to be actually configuring any interfaces to use them. Another machine on the same network has no trouble:
Even our old CRT iMac running Tiger works perfectly. Is anyone else successfully using IPv6 on Leopard? Is there some new gotcha that everyone but me knows about?
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I'd argue that the GUI an CLI are both standard interfaces to the firewall. A flaw where either of them incorrectly informs the user about the settings is a flaw in the firewall. I'd further argue that since the GUI is the more used interface, the flaw reflected there is more serious than a flaw in the CLI.
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mod this one up 100 ... (Score:3, Interesting)
And you only really need a firewall if you are running services on ports that you don't want visible on the Internet. And in this day and age a firewall is next to useless as so many services are being piggybacked over HTML, in order to bypass the firewall
was Re:Oxymoron
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
You can manually start an update: [Apple-Menu]->Software Update
To see which updates have been installed, open
In some cases, you can re-install an update by
1) removing the corresponding "package" at
2) running Software Upd