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Profile of the Russian Business Network

Posted by kdawson on Sat Oct 13, 2007 09:09 PM
from the where-the-bad-guys-are dept.
The Washington Post has an article detailing what is known of the workings of the Russian Business Network, a shadowy entity based in St. Petersburg that hosts a good fraction of the world's spammers, identity thieves, bot herders, and phishers. RBN is not incorporated anywhere and may not technically even be violating Russian law. It provides "bulletproof hosting" for about $600 a month to a wide range of bad guys.The author of the Post story, Brian Krebs, supplements it with two blog posts. One provides more detail and back story including a look at one ISP's security admin who decided last summer to ban all RBN traffic from his network, with outstanding results. The other post maps some of the RBN's upstream suppliers and details the extent of the RBN's involvement in recent cyber-attacks: "Nearly every major advancement in computer viruses or worms over the past two years has emanated from or sent stolen consumer data back to servers" in the RBN.
+ -
story

Related Stories

[+] Russian Hacker Gang Vanishes Again 64 comments
Arashtamere writes "The shadowy hacker and malware hosting network that only recently fled Russia to set up operations in China has now pulled the plug there and vanished yet again. An analyst at VeriSign's iDefense Labs unit said iDefense had tracked RBN's migration earlier in the week from servers based in Russia to ones running in China, after obtaining at least seven net blocks of Chinese IP addresses. As of Wednesday, RBN controlled 5,120 IP addresses assigned to Chinese service providers; known RBN clients were even seen using those addresses that day. But with its China move putting the spotlights of the media and the security community on the organization, RBN suddenly went offline on Thursday. 'They severed connections to six of the seven net blocks on November 8,' the analyst said. RBN as a single organization may be dead and gone; it may even now be breaking up into smaller pieces farmed out to multiple countries' Internet infrastructures."
[+] Entertainment: EULAs For Malware 105 comments
I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property writes "The authors of the Zeus malware have added an end-user license agreement to their product. The buyer is, of course, permitted to infect as many computers with Zeus as they please, but they have no right to distribute it for 'any business or commercial purpose not connected with this sale,' and they can't examine the source, use it to control non-Zeus botnets, or send it to anti-virus companies. Oh, and they commit to paying for future upgrades, too — wouldn't Microsoft love to be able to add that term to their EULA. While it seems silly to imagine Zeus's authors going to the authorities for violations of this EULA, if they're anything like the Russian Business Network, they probably have an extra-judicial means of contract enforcement named Ivan. That said, this is by no means the first EULA-encrusted malware."
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  • I'm hoping the next Slashdot story on this topic is that some drunk driver crashed a propane truck into the RBN datacenter hehehe. Or maybe a nuclear plant will just blow up within close proximity to it lol. Seriously, there's a lot of bad things that could happen to it in Russia! Here's to hoping something does!
  • I've been away (Score:3, Insightful)

    by 42Penguins (861511) on Saturday October 13 2007, @09:19PM (#20970547)
    are we for or against data havens these days?
    • Re:I've been away (Score:5, Insightful)

      by RsG (809189) on Saturday October 13 2007, @09:24PM (#20970575)
      Depends on what they're a haven to, now, doesn't it?

      Put another way, anonymity and secrecy can be used for good - anyone living in an oppressive country can attest to that. Or it can be used to send "3n1arg3 y00r p3nis" spam en masse. I think we can agree on the idea that the existence of data havens is a potential godsend, but the misuse of those havens is a huge headache.
      • Re:I've been away (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Brave Guy (457657) on Saturday October 13 2007, @11:51PM (#20971241)

        I think we can agree on the idea that the existence of data havens is a potential godsend, but the misuse of those havens is a huge headache.

        I'm not sure I'd even agree with that. I am pretty much a pragmatist when it comes to on-line anonymity: I think it is, on balance, overwhelmingly a bad thing. Much the same arguments apply to data havens.

        Sure, these things can theoretically protects discourse, investigative journalism, whistle-blowing and such in an undemocratic society. However, practice is a long way from theory, and on-line "anonymity" is a long way from on-line anonymity. Does anyone really believe, despite the fact that I post under an alias here, that from a technical perspective my government could not track a post back to me if it really had sufficient motivation to do so? Does anyone really believe that if I had sufficiently sensitive information and stored it on a system hosted in one of these less legally restrictive regimes that the Powers That Be could not track it down and take steps to contain it?

        Meanwhile, we have spammers, phishy types such as identity thieves and credit card fraudsters, deceptive folk like inside traders and corporate PR plants, copyright infringers, and countless other people basically abusing a near-anonymous Internet identity and data centres like the one in this article to further their own interests, often at the expense of others... and getting away with it, because no-one has the resources to stop them all reliably.

        For what it's worth, I don't like this position. I appreciate the value of free communications, and I'm well aware of the inhibition imposed by having to put your name to something, and the damage this can do in extreme cases. But I also appreciate the value of privacy, and of being left to mind your own business without constantly having to defend yourself from attacks. Until society grows up, learns not to trust information or offers from anonymous sources, and learns to respect sensitive information — and it has a very long way to go to reach that point — I think we'll do a lot better if people on the Internet are not effectively placed above the law and not held accountable for their actions.

        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          Umm, a "copyright infringer" might argue that our copyright laws have been hijacked by private interests and are no longer serving the public good (as the Constitution mandates). Thus he might argue that an anonymous copyright infringement might be an act of civil disobedience. So he would view the ability to do it anonymously precisely as an act of opposing an oppressive government.
          • I'm sorry, but civil disobedience usually involves getting intentionally caught and punished for doing something that should not be wrong, thereby bringing public attention to the issue. Anonymity is useful for practising freedoms denied by your government, but it doesn't enable true civil disobedience.
            • Re:I've been away (Score:4, Interesting)

              by superwiz (655733) on Sunday October 14 2007, @01:50AM (#20971739) Journal
              I was thinking more of civil disobedience as preached by Thoreau in "Civil Disobedience". It is not necessary to practice civil disobedience as a statement. It can be practiced for the sole purpose of non-violently opposing the corrupt regime. To quote the Wikipedia entry, "Voting for justice is as ineffective as wishing for justice; what you need to do is to actually be just. This is not to say that you have an obligation to devote your life to fighting for justice, but you do have an obligation not to commit injustice and not to give injustice your practical support." As such, practicing civil disobedience anonymously is actually more effective because after not getting caught you get to practice it again.
                    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

                      Of course it's not. The default is that something you can't control afterwards (the no copyright case) is worth whatever a single patron is prepared to pay for it, as indeed happened for hundreds of years. If you introduce an alternative economic mechanism through which the costs can be shared, then the product is worth whatever the sum of the individual contributions would be. In either case, if the value of the work at market rates is less than what the work costs to do, allowing for a profit the artist is prepared to accept, then the work won't get done.

                      Naturally, this is wrong. Since it doesn't even explore the current economic model in which the government guarantees producers of content near-perpetual ownership of distribution rights. A system in which "the costs can be shared" as you put it is the one that exists for some blank media in the US but it is certainly not the prevailing system of compensating content producers. But my point was that there are gradations to how much compensation the content producers would be able to achieve through the

                    • Naturally, this is wrong. Since it doesn't even explore the current economic model in which the government guarantees producers of content near-perpetual ownership of distribution rights. A system in which "the costs can be shared" as you put it is the one that exists for some blank media in the US but it is certainly not the prevailing system of compensating content producers.

                      On the contrary. I think one of the main advantages of the copyright idea, perhaps even the most important one, is precisely that it makes it commercially viable for an artist to produce a work that takes a lot of time, wouldn't be worth enough for any single patron to commission it, but is worth a small amount to many people. You can argue, very reasonably, that if copyright is an economic instrument and the value it is generating for the artist is far greater than what would be necessary for them to pro

      • I think we can agree on the idea that the existence of data havens is a potential godsend, but the misuse of those havens is a huge headache.
        It's just another variation on the widely misunderstood meme that "freedom isn't free." The bad is always the price of the good.
  • The Spamhaus project has a list of Russian Business Network addresses [spamhaus.org], for what it's worth.

    I wonder if anyone has every found a remote exploit that will get past iptables -j DROP recently.
    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Another [blogspot.com] good source of information.
    • by SIGBUS (8236) on Saturday October 13 2007, @11:56PM (#20971263) Homepage
      RBN addresses (and assorted other nasties) are also listed in the Spamhaus DROP [spamhaus.org] (Don't Route Or Peer) list. IMO, it's a useful thing to drop (pun intended) into your firewall...
    • by apachetoolbox (456499) on Sunday October 14 2007, @12:57AM (#20971557) Homepage

      # Russian Business Network
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 81.95.144.182/32 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 81.95.149.171/32 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 58.65.239.66/31 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 81.95.144.3/32 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 81.95.149.27/32 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 81.95.149.181/32 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 81.95.149.178/32 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 81.95.156.0/22 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 193.93.235.5/32 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 81.95.149.110/31 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 81.95.148.18/32 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 81.95.148.130/31 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 81.95.148.132/31 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 81.95.153.243/32 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 81.95.147.202/31 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 81.95.144.0/20 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 195.114.16.0/23 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 195.64.162.0/23 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 84.45.90.141/32 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 88.201.208.0/20 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 195.64.140.0/23 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 81.94.16.0/20 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 85.249.23.0/24 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 81.95.147.182/32 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 217.118.119.26/32 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 85.133.4.138/32 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 213.200.79.194/32 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 62.154.15.154/32 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 213.200.78.66/32 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 195.66.226.151/32 -j DROP
      $IPTABLES -A INPUT -s 213.200.80.46/32 -j DROP
      • by arivanov (12034) on Sunday October 14 2007, @04:20AM (#20972271) Homepage
        Much easier - Autonomous system 40989.

        Networks - 81.95.144.0/22, 81.95.148.0/22, 81.95.154.0/24, 81.95.155.0/24.

        First upstream ISP - 41173 which is a provider in the Seichelles (so they either run a VPN tunnel to there or have a SAT link). So the article may be actually full of shit. I somehow suspect that they are not hopping back to Russia and the servers are outside Russian jurisdiction in the first place.

        Primary upstream transit ISP is 3257 which is Tiscali. Now this does not surprise me in the slightest. No further comment.

        Other transit ISPs are : 25577 - C4L (???), 8928 Interoute (again, this one is no surprise).

        1. It does not look like Russian hosting to me. The Russians are laughing their arse off at the inept article (and other similar musings). The servers may actually be in Europe (or on an the Seyshelles where you can do diddly squat about them).

        2. The hosting is truly bulletproof. Applause. They have most likely bought wholesale all relevant officials in a small nation telecoms operator. So all requests regarding their business activities will go straight to /dev/null. Add to that the fact that their upstream providers are not known to be particularly caring about fraud, spam and the like and the picture is complete.
        • A little late to the thread to get modded up, but I didn't have time this morning to post my own BGP filtering route-maps to keep these malware ISPs out of my tables. AS41173 seems to be the only upstream ISP to 40989. These companies seem to be the same mysterious people, hoping to hide their identities and locations. The internet isn't that easily fooled, though.

          If you look at the RIPE and whois records for all the parties involved, this is an ISP that popped up in June of last year, apparently dedicated to hosting malware sites. Look closely at addresses and dates. Fictitious Panamanian and UK addresses with an American phone number, claims of being in the Seychelles (English spelling), again with other American phone numbers.

          Some nmap fingerprinting of their routing equipment shows this operation tends towards low budget. I've seen ISPs that were nothing more than a couple of university students who obtained an AS#, a prefix, found a BGP feed, and filled a rented a rack in a colo with some servers and a linux box running quagga. Seen from a looking glass, no difference from the big players. A good looking website regularly updated, proper whois and RIPE records, and it's very difficult for a potential client to know the ISP may go down during exams week.

          This operation seems not much more than what a couple of kids with a little knowledge could put together. The prefixes fill various spamhaus and RBL lists. Doubtful that there are any legitimate clients on those networks. This operation is the malware gangs getting a little more hi-tech, running their own ISP by buying IP transit from companies known for never turning down business. They use C4L/NetSumo, a known no-questions-asked ISP who resell an MPLS service between London and Eastern Europe, probably Interoute's.

          As for location, looking at various internal looking glasses, the prefixes seem to be hitting the internet in London then through a leased line with 70 mSec of delay, and in Prague with a sudden 20 mSec of delay. This certainly is not going through the Seychelles. My best guess would be a data centre in Russia, where bribes to local authorities gives them a certain level of immunity to lawful pursuits.

          Any reasonable ISP hoping to protect their clients from this criminal malware gang would just filter those four AS#s from their main routing tables, and save themselves a world of hurt. Better yet would be to actively blackhole those prefixes. Sure, it might fly in the face of one perfect internet, but since there is no legal remedy, internet providers need to protect themselves. Good ISPs and hosting services already filter all kinds of bogus routing information, adding a known spam and malware operation to the list is just good practice.

          the AC
  • Post some ranges (Score:3, Interesting)

    by robogun (466062) on Saturday October 13 2007, @09:21PM (#20970561)
    I wish the article had links to the ranges so we could block this stuff.

    Although I have to say over the last ~2 weeks it's been down quite a bit.
  • by krycheq (836359) on Saturday October 13 2007, @09:58PM (#20970725)
    From TFA:

    Danny McPherson, chief research officer at Arbor Networks, a Lexington, Mass.-based company that provides network security services to some of the world's largest Internet providers, said most providers shy away from blocking whole networks. Instead, they choose to temporarily block specific problem sites.

    "Who decides what the acceptable threshold is for stopping connectivity to an entire network? Also, if you're an AT&T or Verizon and you block access to a sizable portion of the Internet, it's very likely that some consumer rights advocacy group is going to come after you."

    First... who's saying anything about blocking "a sizable portion of the Internet"? We're talking about being able to identify bad-actors and doing something about it for a change. From some recent articles I've read, AT&T doesn't seem to have any problems blocking their users from accessing the Internet when they don't like what they're doing... they'll just drop you if they don't like you. Why do they have issues blocking real criminals from doing real criminal activities. Can anyone honestly say that these networks are hosting content that anyone legitimate would want to get to?

    If there are legit companies doing business with these guys, and maybe if the networks were blocked, or the providers refused to carry routes to those networks, they would "shy away from" doing business with the RBN. Or is that too much of a free-market approach to the problem... block the criminals, and if you're associated with them, you can't do business either. Hmmm...

    Second, as to who decides... the market decides! This is pretty cut-and-dry. If there's a company somewhere that specializes in hosting this crap, then shut it down! It will only benefit legitimate business. This is so easy... there isn't a free-speech or access issue here... nothing for anyone to get upset about. The cancer has been identified... cut it out of the body.

    The time for reactive measures is over. The article got one thing right... this problem has been allowed to grow and fester beyond the point where half-measures are going to work. $150 million is real money and it's time to take the ability for these goons to do this away from them.
    • by Torvaun (1040898) on Saturday October 13 2007, @11:28PM (#20971121)
      Like I want AT&T to be able to decide what parts of the internet are "off-limits" to me? Like there's any reasonable way of doing this anyway? The Internet was developed with the goal of routing around broken segments in mind. This is not a problem with a market solution. This is a problem where the U.N. tells Russia to get its shit together, and stop these guys from doing things that piss off the rest of the world. Nigeria can get the same treatment. If there's some other group behind all the foreign lottery scams that are apparently being sent out by botnet, then I'd like to get them locked down too.
    • As I see it... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by SIGBUS (8236) on Sunday October 14 2007, @12:00AM (#20971297) Homepage
      IMO, I'd rather do the blocking myself than have AT&T do it for me. That being said, I don't hesitate to block RBN traffic.
  • RBL-XBL (Score:5, Insightful)

    by flyingfsck (986395) on Saturday October 13 2007, @10:00PM (#20970737)
    It makes a lot of sense to use the Spamhaus RBL to block things in a firewall. If a site is black listed for sending spam, then I don't want any traffic from that site, not email, not web traffic, anything. However, I am not aware of a system that ties an iptables DROP rule to an RBL.
    • It makes a lot of sense to use the Spamhaus RBL to block things in a firewall. If a site is black listed for sending spam, then I don't want any traffic from that site, not email, not web traffic, anything. However, I am not aware of a system that ties an iptables DROP rule to an RBL.

      why don't you write one....isn't that the whole point of OSS?
      from the 30 seconds that on spamhaus.org, it looks like they let you download the entire list for a fee.....so...just grab the list and write yourself a perl script to generate iptables rules...

      all in all it should take you about 5 minutes to build a "system" do to this.
      Giving it a nice web GUI should take about 15.

  • It deals with a security administrator at a mid-sized U.S. based Internet service provider who decided to block RBN from reaching his customers. John declined to use his full name for a stated fear of physical and/or digital reprisals by RBN's clients against him and his employer.

    His name's Doe. John Doe. He's easy enough to find. (Or at least that's what his toe tag will say once RBN is finished with him)

    Part of the problem is that their activities bring in hard currency. Also, the local authorities p

  • One provides more detail and back story including a look at one ISP's security admin who decided last summer to ban all RBN traffic from his network, with outstanding results.

    If this was not a network in Russia, but oh, say AOL, the fact that lots of its hosts were bots for the bad guys would not change the fact that banning the whole network is censorship. But, of course, all Russian businessmen are mobsters, right? So it's Ok to do this to a network in Russia. Right! How is this article missing a censorship tag?

    Yeah, yeah, let's get funny with all the "in soviet blah, blah, blah." If you don't think you are being suckered into the new xenophobia based on old world para

    • I'm just waiting for the /. Libertarian crowd to insist that they have every right to spam, that it's a viable business model, that the "free market" should be allowed to do whatever it wants, etc. After all, there's really not much difference between spam ads and an ad on a page- consider the following:
      1. The advertisement is unsolicited.
      2. The recipient is forced to expend his/her bandwidth on the ad.
      3. Dealing with the advertisement (deleting it, blocking it, clicking through it if it's an interstitial)
      • Umm, what the?.. My post was pointing out the obvious xenophobia. What does that have to do with the economics of spamming? A true libertarian would have to think pretty hard about where the spam line drawn because he would have to remember that everyone has (or should have) the right to enjoy one's property. But why derail my comment in this direction?
        • Ah, I didn't really read into the xenophobic side of your argument, but the censorship side.
  • by superwiz (655733) on Sunday October 14 2007, @12:01AM (#20971305) Journal

    There is a good line in Dune -- "You control a mentat by controlling his information." The religious crowd is easily aroused by "think of the children." Apparently, the slashdot crowd needs to hear "think of the spam." This is how the world network for all-to-free an exchange of information will be fractured. You just need to find a hot-button issue for every crowd and they'll scream for the separation along national borders on their own (thinking it's their own idea).

    A good number of the posts so far propose blocking Russia altogether. Because there is no "business" done with Russia. Aha. But that means no Russian news. No access to chats with Americans for Russians. Hell, the new Russian order couldn't dream of a better situation. Not only do they get not to have their citizens interact with Americans freely, but they also don't have to be the bad guys in it. The Jefferson quote states that giving up freedom for a little bit of security will cause one to lose both. But why go that far? "little bit of security" is not even necessary as the price. Apparently a little bit of expediency is enough.

    It's censorship and xenophobia even if you can make a Yakov Smirnoff joke of it. Sorry, but this time, the boogie man is you!

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 14 2007, @01:52AM (#20971749)

    Although the RBN are certainly bad guys, Slashdotters should pls resist the tendency to assume that all the bad guys are nasty, foreign types. Most of the bad guys - for example spammers - as usual, are home-grown.

    Of the 133 worst spammers on the Spamhaus ROKSO list, the vast majority of the worlds worst spammers are from the USA, followed after a big gap by nasty foreigners from Israel, Ukraine, China and yes Russia too:

    See: http://www.spamhaus.org/rokso/index.lasso [spamhaus.org]

  • RBN's Netblocks (Score:3, Informative)

    by paulmer2003 (922657) <Paul@paulmer2003.com> on Sunday October 14 2007, @02:51AM (#20971947) Homepage
    # Russian Buisness Network et al. As listed from spamhaus.org on 10/14/2007 81.95.144.182/32 81.95.149.171/32 58.65.239.66/31 81.95.144.3/32 81.95.149.27/32 81.95.149.181/32 81.95.149.178/32 81.95.156.0/22 193.93.235.5/32 81.95.149.110/31 81.95.148.18/32 81.95.148.130/31 81.95.148.132/31 81.95.153.243/32 81.95.147.202/31 81.95.144.0/20 195.114.16.0/23 195.64.162.0/23 84.45.90.141/32 88.201.208.0/20 195.64.140.0/23 81.94.16.0/20 85.249.23.0/24 81.95.147.182/32 217.118.119.26/32 85.133.4.138/32 213.200.79.194/32 62.154.15.154/32 213.200.78.66/32 195.66.226.151/32 213.200.80.46/32
  • by madsheep (984404) on Sunday October 14 2007, @03:32PM (#20975751) Homepage
    I have see a few posts that seem to zero in on RBN and SPAM. Unfortunately, if you read the article or at a slightly familiar with RBN, you would know it's a whole lot worse than that. An extremely large and extremely disproportionate amount of the hosts in the RBN ranges house malware, virues, trojans, command and control sites (for bots), and child pornography -- in addition to the SPAM issues. It really is a bad place on the Internet; one of if not he worst. If you are at an organization where you can block them, you should if not at least check your logs and see if your hosts are going there and why.
    • Re:Just block Russia (Score:5, Informative)

      by AuMatar (183847) on Saturday October 13 2007, @09:51PM (#20970691)
      Except most spam comes from the US via zombies. Should we block them too?
      • Yes, it does come from the zombies, but the zombies are made that way because of the malware that comes, in part, from the RBN. Block the RBN and you'll have an easier time cleaning up the zombies, as less new ones will be created.

      • Um...Yes.

        Australia on the other hand is relatively clean. :)
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      Actually, I'd like to see a program that re-routes all 419 scams to Russia, and all RBN traffic to Nigeria. Throw in a few of the other bad sites, too. Just let them all have a private interspammernet.

    • by Reaperducer (871695) on Sunday October 14 2007, @05:38PM (#20976549) Homepage

      How many of us have to do business with Russian sites?
      You might be surprised. I know I was.

      I started blocking Russian, Nigerian, and other addresses from one of the forums I run [thehaif.com]. It's just a community forum for people in Houston, Texas. In a matter of hours I started getting complaints from regular users who I didn't realize were expat oil execs and workers in Russia, Nigeria, etc... who used my forum to keep up on things going on at home.

      The lesson I learned is that even if I can't imagine why someone would want something doesn't mean it isn't something someone would want.
      • How does that help? Solve a resource waste problem with more resource waste? Perhaps I'm missing your point.

        Besides, the whole premise is broken. So some USA industries manage countless millions of foreign slaves in China, India, etc for a cheap workforce, but that's perfectly good capitalism? Using legal communication channels for data mining and advertising, same as every single noteworthy company in the world does, becomes demonised as soon as somebody labels it as mass spamming and fishing based on an u
    • Why not solve the Microsoft problem the same way? What, you mean to say mass murder is only ok if it's in somebody else's country?
      • Great idea! Nuking Microsoft would also solve the world's obesity, oil and political problems all in one go.

        I'm surprised I didnt think of that myself.

        -- From a Aussie :)
        • ...and replace it with an economic crisis. The whole crux of the problem with closed source software is that it is dependent on a single vendor. How do you think it's an improvement to destroy that vendor and eliminate any hope of maintenance and support?

          The other problems are all rooted in culture and government. The US is what it is because it's been ruled by corporate interests and a corrupt government. It's not something that can ever be fixed, but it can be cleaned up with a series of good administrati
          • Re:One Nuke (Score:4, Insightful)

            by JoshJ (1009085) on Sunday October 14 2007, @12:44AM (#20971497) Journal
            Actually, a bomb blowing up the entire Microsoft complex, killing everyone involved in Windows (but nobody else) would produce a massive demand for jobs in the IT sector, programming sector, pretty much every technical field you can think of. Apple, Red Hat, Sun, Oracle, Novell, and so on would see massive gains in profits. The Rest Of The World (TM) would take relatively small hits- those who are still on XP would stay on XP (and start a Mac or Linux migration plan instead of a Vista one), those who have finished their Vista migration would be in good shape for a few years until it's time for their next hardware upgrade, and those who are in the middle of a switchover to Vista may well get totally fucked, depending on how they're doing it. It wouldn't be pretty in the short term, but it'd be survivable, and it's likely that replacing the monoculture with diversity would result in long-term economic gains due to competition. I actually think gaming companies would get hit the hardest, I have no idea how hard it is to take a game coded for Vista/360 and port it to another console. It's probably still a drop in the bucket of the greater economy. The biggest hit would probably be Wall Street investment bankers and so forth, but that's a single immediate hit, and not something that has a long-lasting effect. (A long-lasting effect would be something like a calamitous food shortage, sudden oil shortage, whatever; that results in an immediate hit followed by a long period of economic inefficiency because of a lack of resources for other industries to continue their business.)
            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              That's pretty optimistic. We're talking about a software industry where it takes many companies years just to update their compiler version, saying nothing of their entire operating platform, not even considering migrating to a completely different platform (Linux, MacOSX, whatever) which Microsoft deliberately stays incompatible with. So an optimistic estimation for Linux to replace Windows, if it's the only way to survive at all, would take a good 5 years or so.

              In the meantime you'd have a bunch of half-a
            • Re:One Nuke (Score:5, Insightful)

              by h4rm0ny (722443) <h4rm0ny@tarddeEE ... inus threevowels> on Sunday October 14 2007, @05:50AM (#20972583) Journal

              That's a variant on the broken window fallacy. The idea that breaking somebody's windows is a good thing because it creates work for the glazier, the police, etc. It only works from an internal viewpoint that is based on the relative distribution of wealth. Taking a broad overview of society as a whole, it's pretty plain to see that the total wealth has gone down. It's the same sort of protectionism as farm subsidies. It may keep people in work but its at the cost of having an inefficient, bloated economy. Far better than to create jobs through needless destruction and inefficiency, is to create jobs by aiming higher and achieving more as a society.
    • I mean, if Russia is a haven for spammers, couldn't we just block most Russian traffic?
      Most of the spam I get comes via the United States...
        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          Because we are not talking about taking out a spam shop. After he learns how to take out an ISP for the purposes of stopping spam he will use the same expertise to take out ISP that enable his opposition. I just don't see how an expertly tyrant is better than an incompetent one.