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US Blocks Entry For German Black Hat Presenter
Posted by
kdawson
on Sun Jul 29, 2007 04:06 PM
from the officious-nonsense dept.
from the officious-nonsense dept.
bushwhacker2000 alerts us to the dilemma of Thomas Dullien, a prominent security researcher who has been a fixture at the annual Black Hat security conference. Dullien was denied entry into the US on his way to this year's conference. Dullien, a German reverse-engineering expert known in hacker circles as "Halvar Flake," said he was blocked from entering the US on the technicality that he had (years ago) signed a contract with Black Hat as an individual, not as his company. Customs agents said he would need an H1-B visa to perform the contracted two days of training at Black Hat, and put him on the next plane back to Germany.
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Hurrah! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Hurrah! (Score:5, Insightful)
If this is a precedent, then it means that conferences in the USA will only have tutorials run by natives, reducing the quality (since you'll only get the best of a subset of your attendees able to give them, rather than the best).
Parent
Re:Hurrah! (Score:5, Interesting)
Armed with absolutely no knowledge of what information was missing from my application, I approached American Express who have a visa checking service - I took my application to their office in London (a 1.5 hour train ride), paid £70 extra for a 'personal service' and they checked over my application, gave it their 'OK' and submitted it to the Embassy by courier for same day processing. Guess what - same rejection.
In desperation, I approached a relative who worked in a different embassy in London and explained my dilemma - they rang a contact in the US embassy who put me in touch with someone in the visa department who agreed to look at my documents and call me back. After several hours, they called and said I would need a signed letter from the US training company confirming that they needed me to run the courses as there was no-one suitable in the USA who could do it. I arranged this by fax and then was later invited to the US embassy to get my visa - by now, this was the day before I was due to fly out!
But that's not the end of it - now when visiting the USA on holiday and filling in the visa waiver form on the plane, I have to answer 'yes' to the question asking whether I have ever been refused a US visa; this now guarantees me a near 100% chance of being stopped at US immigration for an interview, which generally goes like this:
* Sit in a waiting room for an hour
* Get called into interview room
* Asked why a visa was refused
* Explain the fax I had to arrange
* Asked 'is that all'?
* Told I am free to go
And this was all well before 9/11 etc.
Parent
Standard B1 visa should have been enough (Score:5, Informative)
However, when you travel into USA there are certain words you should use carefully. "Work" is one of those. Don't say "I am coming to work in USA". Say "I am on business, attending a conference".
Parent
Re:Standard B1 visa should have been enough (Score:4, Informative)
I actually had an experience like that. I was touring to Broadcom to do a little side project for them. The idea was that the people who wanted the work done were in San Diego, but they would pay me through the Canadian branch of Broadcom. I'd go there to get the specs, then head home to do the work.
I told the customs dude [in Toronto no less] that I was "heading to the states for work." It was at 3am [6am flight] and I wasn't thinking right. The guy asked me about a visa and I said I didn't have one. Then he got all uppity about stealing jobs and all that. I told him that I was doing the work in Canada, but I had to meet the people first. I had to do a secondary check and had my fingerprints taken/etc. Was really unnerving. If I just told them I was heading there for a business meeting it would have been a simple process...
Anyways, I agree, whenever the subject of "work" comes up around US customs you have to make sure you have your wording correct. Otherwise they just assume you're a job thieving illegal alien and will get all uppity.
Tom
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The blogger makes several excellent points about how foolish the whole situation was, how the application of the law was inconsistent relative both to similar situations in the US as well as international standards, and proffered two different, "do-able," legal solutions that were promptly ignored by the "officers" in
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Arguing whether their should even be such draconian measures is a different issue altogether.
For example, suppose I get busted for selling pot in the states. Sure we can sit and talk about the need for said laws, but currently it is on the books, and that's all that matters as far as the law is concerned.
As others pointed out, he could have given the talk
Re:Hurrah! (Score:4, Interesting)
It's not just the US: most countries have bizarre immigration laws.
The beauty of immigration laws, from the point of view of the government, is that they can be as screwed-up as you like, and no-one is ever going to do anything about it. By definition, none of people affected have got a vote, and once they have been turned away they are in no position to fight back through the legal system. So immigration laws are always arbitrary, capricious and unfair: the way all laws would be if the power of the government were not balanced by the courts.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe, possibly, if, for example, the US wasn't meddling and propping up the corrupt Mexican government for its own personal gain, those illegals you so flippantly disparage would be more than happy to stay home with their families, instead of risking abuse and death just trying to keep them alive. Yours and all borders are nothing more than global Jim Crow [ferris.edu] laws. De
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Ne need. He has made himself quite clear already. I don't need to see any more of that dribble than I already have. He's just trolling for dollars. Never can tell if it's serious over these types of forums, but unfortunately, people do actually believe in this crap and millions are murdered because of it. He's just another animal marking his territory. He punishes people for being born in the wrong place and for being the wrong color. A real human doesn't believe in such nons
Re:Hurrah! (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
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This guy just didn't know the rules and a customs agent enforced the laws. He is just doing his job. In my mind, the real news event here is that a Blackhat speaker is causing a big stink on the intern
Technicality? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Technicality? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because at its very essence the visa wasn't needed--all that was needed was a piece of paper saying that he was working for a company in Germany who was sending him, instead of going over and being "employed" by a company as a trainer in the US.
This is dictionary definition of technicality. One sentence needed to be worded slightly differently even though both sentence variants meant, in terms of the business relationship, basically the same thing. One variant makes the immigration bureaucracy happy, the other blows a multi-thousand dollar trip.
Parent
Who can enter under the VWP? (Score:4, Informative)
Q: Who Is Eligible to Use the VWP?
A: To qualify for the VWP, you must:
* Intend to enter the United States for 90 days or less;
* Have a passport lawfully issued to you by a VWP country that is valid for six months beyond your intended visit;
* Be a national of the VWP country that issued your passport;
* Have been checked using an automated electronic database containing information about inadmissible aliens to the United States;
* Have a return trip ticket to any foreign destination other than a territory bordering on the United States or an adjacent island unless:
1. You are a resident of an adjacent island,
2. This requirement is waived by the Attorney General under regulations, or
3. You are a visitor for business who arrives aboard a private aircraft that maintains a valid agreement guaranteeing to transport you out of the United States, if you are found to be inadmissible or deportable;
* Present to the U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officer a completed and signed Form I-94W, Nonimmigrant Visa Waiver Arrival/Departure Form. (Please see "How Do I Get an Arrival Departure Document?" for more information about arrival/departure records.);
* Not pose a safety threat to the United States;
* Not have failed to comply with the conditions of any previous admission under the Visa Waiver Program;
* If arriving by air or sea, you must arrive aboard a carrier that signed an agreement, "signatory carrier", guaranteeing to transport you out of the United States if you are found to be inadmissible or deportable;
* Convince the examining CBP officer that you are clearly and beyond a doubt entitled to be admitted and that you are not inadmissible under section 212 of the Act. For reasons that would make you inadmissible, please see the Immigration and Nationality Act at INA 212 (a);
* Waive any right to review or appeal a CBP officer's decision as to your admissibility, other than on the basis of an application for asylum or an application for withholding of removal under the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment; and
* Waive any right to challenge your removal, other than on the basis of an application for asylum or an application for withholding of removal under the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. Overview of the Visa Waiver Program (VWP) [cbp.gov]
Parent
Re:Technicality? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a technicality because he wouldn't have needed a visa had the contract been between Blackhat and his company. What determines whether he gets in is whether he signed the contract as an individual or as the CEO of his company.
What bothers me about this is not so much that they picked up on this rather minor technicality but that the response is extreme and inflexible. Why not let him fix the technical flaw making the contract with his company? The reason they gave was that he couldn't do this because he had already applied as an individual. So what? That may be immigration policy, but its a stupid, inflexible policy. Similarly, it is ridiculous to bar him forever from using the visa waiver program, though they are indeed applying their normal policy to him. The assumption is that any violation of the rules should be treated as evidence that the individual is untrustworthy and should therefore have to go through the full visa application process. That is an obviously unsound assumption - there are plenty of cases like this one in which the violation is trivial and/or unintentional. Exclusion from the visa waiver program should be restricted to serious, intentional violations.
Parent
Just move BlackHat off the US! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Because by the time the next conference happens, the US will have already shut its borders for anyone "suspect" of leaving the country to attend this conference, from attending.
And do you think they'll let you back into the country?
"What is the nature of your visit?"
"I'm speaking at a hacking conference."
"A what? Turn around and get back on the plane and don't come back."
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Because by the time the next conference happens, the US will have already shut its borders for anyone "suspect" of leaving the country to attend this conference, from attending.
That may not be the wisest of ideas:
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Re:Just move BlackHat off the US! (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, this incident doesn't demonstrate any kind of problem with holding conferences in the US. If he had merely planned to attend the conference, he wouldn't have been denied entry. What got him in trouble was his plan to do training for two days prior to the conference, that is, to work in the United States. Granted, he was denied entry on a technicality that he should have been allowed to fix, but what that means is that if you want to work in the US you have to be careful.
Parent
I don't want to go to the US anymore. (Score:5, Insightful)
Now I have to fear that the people here did not do their work properly (i.e. gave me the wrong visa application), and that I'll be rejected at the gates after standing in a huge queue before immigration at the airport.
The other reason is that after providing the security services with boatloads of personal information, fingerprints and other biometrics, some flag will go up in some obscure system, and I'll be (hopefully) sent back straight away by unnamed guys, and if I'm unlucky, get deported to the happy camp of Guantanamo inc. to have all human rights stripped from me for reasons unknown.
B.
Re:I don't want to go to the US anymore. (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Why would an international conference be in the US (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not sure why you were modded information, since you're spreading false information.
In Canada, Public speakers at seminars or conferences that do not go longer than 5 days do not require a work permit, nor do they require a visa if they come from a visa exempt country. Please see the IRPA regulation 186(j) [justice.gc.ca] and the Temporary Foreign Workers policy manual sect [cic.gc.ca]
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Commercial speakers have a vested interest in the event at which they are speaking. Typically, they rent commercial space in a hotel, advertise, charge admission, deliver the event and then leave Canada. If they are doing this for no more than five days on one trip, they can enter under R186(j). This regulation covers situations where the speaker is speaking to multiple groups, as long as the duration of the speaking events is no more than five days, not counting travel time in the case of multiple engagements. Not included in R186(j) are commercial speakers who are hired by a Canadian entity to provide training services. In these cases, other entry options must be explored including HRSDC LMOs or the NAFTA Professional category which allows for professionals to provide training services under some circumstances.
So if he went to Canada and said he was being paid by a Canadian company to provide training services, he would need a visa.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I'll give you an example of "training services": A large insurance company in Canada decides to implement service oriented architecture. They contract a consultant from the USA to come up to the company and give a few training sessions to the IT department. In this case, they would have to apply for a work permit.
I'm not really familiar with how Blackhat works, but assuming Blackhat is just a regular conference where memb
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If you hate the way things are look at what your MPs are doing.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
My stamp from the UK explicitly states "Employment and Recourse to public funds prohibited." I think that means I can't get paid to work there... fairly certain
And for the record, the UK customs is just as nasty as the americans. Worse yet because usually I'm so f'ing tired I just don't want to deal with them. At least in the states I'm so close to home that I can put up with their asinine questions and all that.Though to be fair I've also had just as much trouble with C
Not A Good Sign (Score:5, Interesting)
This is not good. It's my understanding that once you've been kicked out, it's much, much, much harder to get back in.
That leaves me rather scared. I've known Halvar for almost six years; we were in Singapore together at Black Hat Asia. He's a very intelligent engineer, doing very good research, and has done more than almost anyone to make people realize that obfuscation is not security. We, as an industry, need his voice. (A bit cynical, but seriously, we as an American industry want his talents put to work here, rather than overseas.)
Simple arguments like -- nobody could figure out how this works, they'd have to be able to read code -- have been destroyed because of Halvar's work. You may not realize it, but without concrete examples of attacks, software developers simply cannot comprehend attacks against their code that they can't do themselves. Halvar is a critical innoculation against technically inept but vaguely plausable excuses why something must be impossible.
Halvar does the impossible regularly. Seriously, he's an artist, and the American security industry is directly harmed by not being able to learn from him. What's the story going to be? That Halvar can only do training in India, and China, and in Europe? Yes, that sounds like a wonderful idea. Everyone else's code gets more secure while ours rots on the vine.
The only thing more embarrassing than this was when Xioyun Wang, the Chinese professor who cracked MD5, was denied entry to the US. Oh well, Halvar, I guess you're in good company...
--Dan Kaminsky
Re:Not A Good Sign (Score:5, Funny)
Given that all US software development will be outsourced to India and China anyways, it makes sese to give these folks an advantage in learning about software security.
Parent
Absolutely right (Score:5, Interesting)
Absolutely right! Halvar is extraordinarily talented and it will be a terrible shame if his class [blackhat.com] is canceled. But it starts on Monday, so unless they do it by video conference I can't see him making it. I still hope to see him when I fly to Vegas on Thursday, but the odds aren't good :(.
I'd like to know just what the immigration department expects US conferences to do when bringing in foreign speakers. Halvar says they wanted to treat him like an "employee" of BlackHat and get an H1-B visa [wikipedia.org]. But that is a ridiculous as it is a multi-year process. Halvar thinks coming as a representative of his own German company will help, but we shouldn't have to require that foreigners incorporate just to give a simple presentation or training class here.
I'm an American who has been paid to give presentations and training in many countries, including Germany. And I've never been hassled by their immigration dept. or received any special visas. So its embarrassing and harmful that the US subjects visitors to our country to all of this crap (including the fingerprinting and pushing other countries toward RFID passports). Its no wonder that many conference producers, including BlackHat, have been increasing the number of cons held offshore. The US just isn't seen as a welcoming place.
Pardon the long rant, but I hate seeing my friends put through this. And I'm sure similar things happen to thousands of people we don't know every day. Also, if those of us in the US don't fix our system, other countries might copy it and then we'll have to deal with this shit when we travel.
-Fyodor
Insecure.Org [insecure.org]
Parent
I'll be the first to rail against the US but... (Score:3, Insightful)
We don't need no education! (Score:5, Funny)
Failed the test (Score:5, Funny)
Happening in other fields as well (Score:3, Interesting)
I think if this sort of thing continues, more and more conference organizers will simply opt to hold their conferences in countries that are a bit more free.
Don't Go (Score:5, Interesting)
I've avoided them ever since DeCSS (I was a named defendant) and I don't plan to change that. As I see it, for a foreign national in the computer security business, pretty much anything you do while, before or potentially-might-do-after your trip can result in them locking you up indefinitely.
And the real horror is: A couple years ago, people even on
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
The 3 digit
I bow to you sir!
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Either don't shop there, or change labour laws to include more reasonable minimum wages for adults, language requirements, etc...
Tom
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Next time, drop the rhetoric that has been so popular against homosexuals and illegal aliens recently and instead talk about it in civil terms.
Thanks.
Re: (Score:2)
Even if they are illegal, they pay taxes because it is withheld from their pay checks. Illegals tend to overpay payroll taxes because although they pay withholding they don't get refunds; they also get social security and Medicare withheld from their wages.
They would be no more unlikely to pay their hospital bills than any other Wal-Mart employee.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish (Score:5, Insightful)
so what? I mean, americans have this weird sense of what's right and what's wrong. For one, Spanish seems to be some kind of dirty language, something only ugly dark-skinned people speak. It's the language of evil. What's wrong with being bilingual? If schools start teaching spanish people complain. Why? I mean... "the more you know", right? If instead of speaking one language, you can speak 2? That's cool, opens a lot of possibilities.
Also, america is also ashamed of the south. You like white christmas and all that crap, and also, that's the way christmas is supposed to be. I wonder if christmas is white in Florida, or even in New Orleans? No, but you don't talk about that. People in those places go barefoot and drive in dirt roads, ewww. They also chase alligators and fish in the mississippi. I mean, if you're fishing it MUST be in some pretty lake or a crystaline river, surrounded by mountains and brown maple leaves in fucking vermont.
What the fuck is wrong with you people? There's a whole world of things, languages, foods, places, and you complain because ILLEGALS ARE TAKING OUR JOBS AND NOT PAYING TAXES! What good are taxes for? I mean, in my country I can at least get FREE medical attention, even AIDS drugs. Even if I don't have a job and don't pay taxes. Hell, even if I'm not a citizen, I can still get all of that. Do you pay your taxes? What do these taxes do anyway? You need to pay for health, food, college. In my country, at least I can CHOOSE. I can pay for health, or use the State health services (sometimes the latter is better). I can go to a private university, but I can also go (and I do) to a state-funded university (and my degree is just as good in any of them). And I can even get free food from the government (and not food stamps, to be treated like scum at the store).
Do you realize that you are living in a country that spends half of the WORLD'S combined budgets in defense? What good has it been? You had 9/11, but "nobody saw that coming". You had Katrina, but "nobody saw that coming". And it's your fault, because you whine about Wal-Mart, but still buy there. You whine about the illegal immigrants, but if you were a store owner, you would hire one. You whine about catastrophes (natural or terrorism), but you don't have the people you need, because they're fighting in a war far away, trying to STEAL resources from a poor country.
America has the potential to be a fucking PARADISE, if you only cut the crap, the fear of "socialism" and "communism", the "take care of yourself and fuck everyone else" attitude. America never sleeps, they're ever waiting for doomsday to happen, the day China, Korea, or even some crappy island in the pacific will try to attack you. But instead of just waiting, you go and provoke everyone, showing off your weapons and killing innocent people all over the world. Dude, NOTHING will happen to america. Just stop messing with the rest of the world. In the process you will save BILLIONS of dollars, that could be spent in education, health, etc. But no, you have been brainwashed into thinking "that's communism!".
What good is the government for? Are they only there to "govern" you? To tell you what to do? (You know, only in the world's worst dictatorships a police officer draws his gun and put it in your head, let alone "take you in custody" for no reason other than suspected terrorism. Oh yea, and in america that happens too. IF a police officer tells you to get out of the car, and you don't obey, you are likely to be put in front of a loaded gun, or maced. Even if your children are in the car.) You know what that is? That's the government AFRAID of you. How can you live in a country where the government is afraid of you? In my country 15 years ago we gave the people the option to have their retirement funds in a 401(k)-like system. Your money was invested, you get interests from it, etc. Now a
Parent
Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish (Score:4, Insightful)
Another example: Spain. France. Germany. I could go on, but those countries are, to a great extent, socialist. Are they worse than America? Don't they get better? (because you say that taking care of yourself, or your community, makes it better). Let me give you an example, and this is true. I have a friend who lives in spain, and he has a young daughter. He told me that the government sent him a letter, reminding him that the girl didn't go to the dentist in over a year. It reminded him that it was free, any dentist he wanted. Scary? I don't think so. That's what I mean by "the government taking care of you". Sure, they don't do it because it's nice, they do it because detecting a cavity early is cheaper than paying for tooth extraction or whatever. But, when was the last time your HMO sent you a letter, reminding you that you should get a check-up?
It's more of a thing of altruism I think. You may never understand me, because we see different things. Let me see if I can explain what I think: you are afraid of giving power to the government, because they will come back later to expect something from you. I see it more, you may say idealistically, but well, I think the government is the PEOPLE. The government gives me things (health, whatever), and it expects me to pay taxes, and nothing else. You too are afraid of your government, because of the way you think (warning: I'm not saying it's wrong, I just say I think different): you always expect something in return, and you think everyone else also expects something in return. Well, I think the government is more harmless than a big corporation. Sure, a huge government monopolizing everything is not healthier either.
Do I hate big corporations? Certainly not, I try to avoid them whenever I can, because you give them more power if you buy things from them. But obviously there are certain things, huge things, that can't be paid by small companies: A large scale network, like the phone, cable, well those are examples of things that can't be done by small companies.
But then you have the big corporation scandals, all over the place. Enron, Worldcom... A tiny government that allows itself to be lobbied, and that's what happens. Big corporations care only about the numbers, and WILL fuck anything they need in order to keep their numbers high enough (the premise is "it's never enough").
You also say that "Spending that money brought down the Iron Curtain and freed western Europe." What? Are you on crack or what? That money actually help build the iron curtain. The USSR wasn't as bad as you and I were told it was. If they were poor it was only because you provoked them, you made them spend more and more in weapons and military. If you weren't there to bother them, they MIGHT have been a happy communist country, and nothing else. But no, america can't stand the idea of communism, not even socialism, so we have to destroy it. You didn't free western europe either. You only went there because the japs touched your ass. It wasn't your war. Vietnam wasn't either, and you were there to "free" them.
See it this way: If you didn't shake the USSR, maybe they wouldn't have needed so many AK-47s. Those AK's wouldn't be in the hand of muslim extremists now. They wouldn't be so powerful, maybe 9/11 wouldn't have happened if you didn't bring down the iron courtain. That's how I see it.
Dude, wake up. War is business. Billions of dollars in the hands of the corporations who make the weapons, and that's
Parent
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B.
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Sending Halvar back is one thing.... (Score:4, Insightful)
And no, not just because ppl should RTFA before engaging in ludicrous parochialisms.
Consider: The Copernican revolution in how the US (unlike any other Western country) deals with travellers like Halvar coming to its borders from a legal, cultural, historical perspective is in the context of a wholesale erosion of human and civil rights -- of American citizens (not the hapless foreigner popping in to educate you). Realise how these incidents do sustained damage to the US reputation, its economy and its already shockingly insular society, and you will also catch a glimpse of the loss of rights and freedoms for Americans themselves.
Parent