Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments

News for nerds, stuff that matters

Slashdot Log In

Log In

Create Account  |  Retrieve Password

Windows vs Mac Security

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:27 PM
from the lauchded-into-a-fit-of-rage dept.
sdhorne writes "There is a good technical discussion over at InfoWorld on the merits of launchd and what is lacking in a comparable Windows secure solution. It is a throw back to the UNIX vs Windows security discussion that has been hashed out for many years." From the article: "it always traces back to Microsoft's untenable policy of maintaining gaps in Windows security to avoid competing with 3rd party vendors and certified partners. Apple's taking a different approach: What users need is in the box: Anti-virus, anti-spam, encryption, image backup and restore, offsite safe storage through .Mac, and launchd. Pretty soon any debate with Microsoft over security can be ended in one round when Apple stands up, says 'launchd', and sits back down."
+ -
story
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
 Full
 Abbreviated
 Hidden
More
Loading... please wait.
  • Well written, but (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MECC (8478) * on Wednesday August 23 2006, @12:29PM (#15963890)
    Pretty soon any debate with Microsoft over security can be ended in one round when Apple stands up, says 'launchd', and sits back down."

    It seemed pretty wello written. That said, I which he would have said a little more about launchd, at least enough to explain why it gives OSX an advantage. It would have also been nice to have had some kind of side-by side comparing Windows and OSX, like how the windows System pseudo-user trumps the admin user, and how there is not way to trump the OSX root user.

    Why this can't happen under OS X:

    I don't know if I'd go that far. OSX isn't 100% immune - it just has more common sense.

    • Re:Well written, but (Score:5, Informative)

      by alps (673371) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @12:36PM (#15963938)
      • Re:Well written, but (Score:5, Informative)

        by macshome (818789) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @01:03PM (#15964148) Homepage
        Pimping myself here a bit, but our article on launchd [afp548.com] might be of more help to sysadmins. It later formed the basis for the wikipedia article and has thrilling Jordan Hubbard comments to boot!
          • Re:Well written, but (Score:5, Interesting)

            by skiflyer (716312) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @04:23PM (#15965642)
            Ok, I agree with most of your post, but ...

            The purpose of most of the DLLs in SYSTEM32 is documented, just look at the summary tab in Explorer, the problem is that with any complex operating system it's trivial to make up fake names that sound plausible

            I just looked at the summary tab on a dozen random DLLs in my system32 directory (most from microsoft, some from 3rd parties), and there was no information in any of them. Why can't 3rd parties use a different location than MS... at least that would help a little (would help me anyway, if not the actual problem being discussed)

            Windows requires users to use Administrator to install software? No, buggy software requires that. Historically a few Mac programs have had the same requirements ... iTunes springs to mind. Anyway, the Apple solution to buggy software requiring elevated privileges is "you can't run that software" - not very helpful if you need it.

            "buggy" software? I think you mean to say legacy OR poorly coded... this is one of those side effects that windows carries from version to version (like the registry) because MS refuses to leave customers high and dry for old software. Back in the old days this was the right way to do things, store configs in programdirectory/conf... we didn't have an appdata directory like we do now. Same with registry hives, they weren't setup in the same way they are now where certain users could do certain things. Calling it buggy implies the software is behaving contrary to design, it's not, it's just that the target has moved and the software hasn't all moved with it.
    • Re:Well written, but (Score:4, Interesting)

      by ackthpt (218170) * on Wednesday August 23 2006, @12:39PM (#15963962) Homepage Journal

      I don't know if I'd go that far. OSX isn't 100% immune - it just has more common sense.

      In a nutshell, OS-X is built upon a known animal, whereas Windows is an animal which continues to be re-invented, like a leopard changing its spots to stripes, then plaid, then paisley, then something else. With such moving targets all the time it's small wonder they've got security issues. Some begin to be addressed with good programming practices (which Apple could certainly lapse at at any moment, and may well have and we haven't heard about) Another is to require tight control over interfaces between code from different departments. Microsoft going back to scratch time and again doesn't necessarily mean anything is getting better.

      • by MECC (8478) * on Wednesday August 23 2006, @12:44PM (#15964010)
        whereas Windows is an animal which continues to be re-invented

        I'm not sure that 're-invented' is how I'd describe windows, or their efforts at security.

        • Re:Well written, but (Score:5, Interesting)

          by ackthpt (218170) * on Wednesday August 23 2006, @12:55PM (#15964098) Homepage Journal

          I'm not sure that 're-invented' is how I'd describe windows, or their efforts at security.

          In the past Microsoft have commented that they have completely ditched the code Windows was written with and re-written from ground up, to try to address myriad flaws. That's pretty drastic. I've done it with small projects which simply grew too large and unwieldy because they were never expected to scale to newer demands* Microsoft is effectively doing this with Vista and yet... there still appear to be security flaws. Something wrong with that picture. Could be they're just a victim of their success and such a massive undertaking of code is approaching the event horizon just before the black hole.

          *You know the type.. you develop some nifty little tool to summarise information for your own use and someone sees it and says, "Hey! That thing does in seconds what I spend a week doing! I need it, set me up with it!" Next thing you know your little tool has to be user friendly, go to printers, be in colour, etc. Continually piling in changes makes it fragile so you step back, figure what it all needs to do and how to achieve the goals and then recode, with an eye toward more scalibility and unforeseen features later.

            • Re:Well written, but (Score:5, Interesting)

              by samkass (174571) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @02:57PM (#15965000) Homepage Journal
              If you remove things like IE

              But IE is part of the OS... just ask Microsoft. Seriously, though, back when my previous company had to deal with IIS before moving to a more secure/sane server, one of the server bugs was fixed by upgrading IE on the server, so IE-is-fundamental-to-the-OS is frighteningly close to actual truth with Windows.

              Also, I'd like to see the statistics you cite that say that Windows hasn't been hit statistically more than MacOS. There are no MacOS-specific worms or viruses "in the wild", so it's hard to come up with the sigmas for what would be "expected" for what a comparable OS should expect.
      • What I thought was interesting in the article was how many of his complaints were probably due not to bad design per se, but to poor practices -- things like documentation, structural transparency, consistent use of system policies, etc.

        What struck me is that there are definitely seeming flaws in Windows that make it insecure as-is, but that it doesn't have to be this way; Microsoft has chosen and continues to choose to operate in such a way that exacerbates rather than minimizes the effect of many of the inherent weaknesses of the platform. A similarly designed system, managed and documented differently, would probably be less problematic.
      • by 93 Escort Wagon (326346) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @01:36PM (#15964412)
        "In a nutshell, OS-X is built upon a known animal, whereas Windows is an animal which continues to be re-invented, like a leopard changing its spots to stripes, then plaid, then paisley, then something else."

        I am a Mac user, and I think it is an inherently safer platform design than Windows. But as was mentioned in a recent SANS newsletter, Apple has on occasion had problems with security issues that were resolved long ago on BSD proper and on Linux. So while it's true that OS X is "built upon a known animal", they haven't always been as consistent as I'd like with regard to learning from other groups' mistakes.
      • by Mister Whirly (964219) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @02:01PM (#15964603) Homepage
        "whereas Windows is an animal which continues to be re-invented, like a leopard changing its spots to stripes, then plaid"

        I think you are confused. Leopard, Tiger, and Jaguar are all Mac operating systems...
    • by fruitbane (454488) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @12:57PM (#15964110) Homepage
      "I don't know if I'd go that far. OSX isn't 100% immune - it just has more common sense. "

      This is, I think, the best summary I've ever read of OS X's inherent security advantage. No OS could really succeed and be 100% air-tight at the same time, IMO. And user- and developer-friendliness does often mean compromises that lead to security problems, but the article that this discussion refers to covers a lot of it well and MECC (parent) summarized succintly and effectively.

      OS X, as an OS, has more common sense built-in.
      • Re:Well written, but (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Buran (150348) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @02:23PM (#15964779)
        But at the same time Apple gets applauded for rolling EVERY SINGLE LITTLE POSSIBLE THING into their OS?

        Because they don't force you to use any of it. You can delete any of the utilities that you want. Don't want ichat? Trash it.

        On the other hand, good luck getting rid of Windows Messenger. It's even hidden in Add/Remove Programs and fixing that requires a hack well beyond most users.

        Don't want to use Safari? Make it go poof.

        On the other hand, you CANNOT get rid of Internet Explorer. And that's bad. IE is full of security holes and you can't get rid of it. Safari is far safer, and you can get rid of it.

        What hypocrisy was that, again? There's a damn good reason MS gets blasted and Apple doesn't. (Well, it does, but nowhere near as much, and I just explained why.)
          • Re:Well written, but (Score:5, Informative)

            by curious.corn (167387) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @03:58PM (#15965438)
            The go to the Desktop, open the nifty "My Computer" icon, clear the Address: field and type "http://www.slashdot.org", press enter. Boom! you're back to Internet Explorer.

            simply removing a filthy icon from the QuickLaunch menu while leaving the whole pile of unsafe, vulnerable infrastructure INTACT, completely BETRAYS the meaning of the word UNINSTALL.

            Sheesh... and people talk about Jobs's Reality Distortion Field

  • well, (Score:4, Insightful)

    by joe 155 (937621) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @12:30PM (#15963899) Journal
    "Pretty soon any debate with Microsoft over security can be ended in one round when Apple stands up, says 'launchd', and sits back down"

    I would have though "(almost) no viruses" would have done the trick since OSX came out...

    Or, we don't effectively force everyone to run as super user all the time - if you prefer
      • Re:well, (Score:5, Interesting)

        by cyber-vandal (148830) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @03:15PM (#15965117) Homepage
        The very successful worms of the early 21st century were all about causing as much aggravation as possible. The creator of the ILOVEYOU virus didn't make any money from disrupting corporate email servers but he did get to cause a lot of aggravation. You think there are no virus writers wanting to stick it to smug Mac/Linux users? You think no-one would take the time and effort to annoy them? You don't understand human nature too well if you believe it's merely marketshare that's keeping malware away from OS X and Linux.
  • by LinuxIsRetarded (995083) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @12:35PM (#15963931) Homepage
    Apple's taking a different approach: What users need is in the box: Anti-virus, anti-spam, encryption, image backup and restore, offsite safe storage through.

    Don't you think that if Microsoft offered this that everyone would cry monopoly? Actually, I've seen other people on Slashdot cry this before at the announcement of Microsoft's OneCare program, which isn't even bundled with the OS!
    • by CastrTroy (595695) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @12:53PM (#15964083) Homepage
      It depends on how they offered it. If they made it impossible to uninstall, then yes, we would yell monopoly. However, if they made these features able to be uninstalled (or never installed in the first place) and easily replaced by third party tools, then I don't think we would have anything to complain about. I don't have any problems with MS including IE with the operating system, I just wish it could be removed from the system.
    • by Gryffin (86893) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @01:01PM (#15964134) Homepage
      Apple's taking a different approach: What users need is in the box: Anti-virus, anti-spam, encryption, image backup and restore, offsite safe storage through.
      Don't you think that if Microsoft offered this that everyone would cry monopoly?

      Microsoft has been declared a monopoly in Federal court, and found guilty of anti-trust offenses related to abusing that monopoly in violation of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act.

      Apple, on the other hand, is not a monopoly, and hence it would be perfectly legal for them to bundle anything they damn well felt like bundling.

      Why is this so difficult to understand? Microsoft, because of their market position, is held to a different legal standard. End of story.

      • Why is this so difficult to understand? Microsoft, because of their market position, is held to a different legal standard. End of story.

        It's not difficult to understand; it's annoying because it's the wrong argument, and it really muddies the debate. We don't need to hold Microsoft and Apple to different standards to show that one is better than the other. There is nothing wrong with MS bundling software with their OS. What was wrong was that they were forcing companies like Dell NOT to include competing software (such as Netscape).

        It's a moot point any way though, because in this case we aren't even talking about the right thing. As someone else mentioned, we're talking about a system that is built to resist viruses and such, not virus scanning software bundled with the OS.
    • by Overly Critical Guy (663429) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @01:30PM (#15964361)
      I haven't seen anyone cry "monopoly" over that. I've just seen people cry that Microsoft is selling services to fix problems in its own OS, like with OneCare, instead of fixing the problems in Windows to begin with. And guess what, despite Vista's security enhancements, it's still based on Win32, still based on a registry, and is basically just a bunch of new APIs and rewritten subsystems on top of the same old code.

      Also, there's a difference since in the Apple world, there isn't an antivirus or antispyware market, but in the Windows world, there is a huge market that's been around for over a decade, so it's a big deal when Microsoft starts bundling its own versions of these services.

      For the record, OS X ships with no antivirus software. Not needed.
      • by nuzak (959558) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @12:50PM (#15964059) Journal
        So, what MS needs to do is licence their OS to sublicensors. They can include whatever extra security tools, browsers, media players and the like they want. Would probably work out for MS fairly well, and would definitely allow a properly integrated security system.

        Psst. They're called OEMs. Try buying a PC from a big-box store these days without Mcafee or Norton on it.
  • by Shimmer (3036) <brianberns@gmail.com> on Wednesday August 23 2006, @12:39PM (#15963959) Homepage Journal
    It always traces back to Microsoft's untenable policy of maintaining gaps in Windows security to avoid competing with 3rd party vendors and certified partners

    So if they bundled everything you list (anti-virus, anti-spam, encryption, etc.) into the operating system, you don't think they'd be accused of illegally leveraging their monopoly advantage? Just look what happened when they integrated a web browser into the OS a few years ago.
      • And Apple could never do the things Microsoft does:
        1) Threaten Compaq with withholding OS licenses if Compaq installed Netscape Navigator as the default browser
        2) Threaten IBM with increased OS license fees if IBM did not drop OS/2

        Those were the lynchpins of the antitrust lawsuit. If Microsoft had ONLY bundled, they would not face monopoly abuse charges. Then HP could have UNBUNDLED IE and installed Firefox, or IBM could have unbundled Windows and installed OS/2.

        Apple's bundles can be unbundled. That is the critical difference. Drag Safari, Mail, Virex, Appleworks, iCal, and Quicktime to the trash, and the OS still works.
  • slashdot this (Score:5, Interesting)

    by RichMan (8097) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @12:39PM (#15963961)
    Anyone notice the link at the bottom of the article?

    Links to slashdot submit article. http://slashdot.org/submit.pl [slashdot.org]

    Cute.
  • Anti-virus? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 23 2006, @12:40PM (#15963975)
    If you don't count a trojan as a virus, then you don't need an anti-virus if your OS is secure. Apple can work on securing its OS or on an anti-trojan, but any effort spent on an anti-virus is wasted.
  • What's launchd? (Score:5, Informative)

    by peterdaly (123554) * <petedaly&ix,netcom,com> on Wednesday August 23 2006, @12:41PM (#15963980)
    Was I the only Mac user who didn't know what launchd was off the top of my head?

    In Mac OS X v10.4 Tiger, Apple introduced a new system startup program called launchd. The launchd daemon takes over many tasks from cron, xinetd, mach_init, and init, which are UNIX programs that traditionally have handled system initialization, called systems scripts, run startup items, and generally prepared the system for the user. And they still exist on Mac OS X Tiger, but launchd has superseded them in many instances. These venerable programs are widely used by system administrators, open source developers, managers of web services, even consumers who want to use cron to manage iCal scheduling, and they can still be called with launchd.

    The launchd daemon also provides a big performance boost to your system. At any given time, only those daemons that are actually used are launched; combined with the fact that daemons can shut themselves down and be relaunched as needed means that you can reduce the average memory footprint of the system.


    http://developer.apple.com/macosx/launchd.html [apple.com]
      • It's not really a wrapper as much as it's a replacement.

        The story I heard was that a bunch of Apple engineers got tasked with improving OS X boot times, and the problem they kept running into was the way that init worked. In order to create a good way of launching stuff simultaneously (when possible) and generally making everything boot quickly, they ended up just writing a new system for launching services, and the result was launchd. It also minimizes the number of running daemons at any one time, saving memory and processor cycles, and can start and stop them as-needed. Apparently you can also do some neat stuff like actually feed programs commands rather than just start/stop, but I've never used that.

        I think Apple's hope was that other UNIX-ish systems might like the launchd concept and replace init with it, but I'm not sure that the faster boot times will really be worth the retraining costs for systems that aren't booted up often.

        The things I dislike about launchd, aside from the traditional UNIX objection to anything which is New And Therefore Bad, is that its config files are XML instead of flat text, which I find obnoxious, and that it makes it marginally more difficult to see what services are running on a given system. You can be running a local mailserver but not have a daemon active, because launchctl will bring up postfix as needed. If you're not looking for it, you can miss the fact that postfix is set up. (However you can program it to bring up particular services and leave them -- in fact you can use init and cron normally, if you like.)

        I still use cron for scheduled tasks as well, because I've never wanted to figure out how to replicate cron with Apple's stuff, but I'm told it can do that, too.

        Overall I think it's pretty neat, and for a desktop-UNIX system it's a major step forward. For a server or non-desktop environment, I think the benefits are more mixed.
        • Re:What's launchd? (Score:5, Informative)

          by n8_f (85799) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @03:04PM (#15965041) Homepage
          You can be running a local mailserver but not have a daemon active, because launchctl will bring up postfix as needed.

          Launchd will bring postfix up as needed. But, launchctl is what you want to use to see what launchd has loaded. And that is loaded, not necessarily running. The command you want to use is "sudo launchctl list". For example, mine shows org.postfix.master and com.openssh.sshd, which aren't actually running but will be activated when there is traffic on the specified ports. Of course, you'll also notice org.xinetd.xinetd. Nothing by default runs under xinetd, but if you've added a server, it could be in /etc/xinetd.d rather than in the launchctl list.

          The XML vs. flat file debate has been fought all over the web, so I won't rehash it here, but I think the benefits of machine-parseability are worth it and it uses Apple's standard plist format, so it is consistent the rest of the OS.

          Overall, launchd is a huge step forward. Apple has open-sourced it and it would be interesting to see it implemented in other systems. Perhaps Solaris can use it in exchange for giving us ZFS (10.5).

  • UNIX and viruses (Score:5, Interesting)

    by rice_burners_suck (243660) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @12:41PM (#15963985)
    Viruses are definitely part of the umbrella concept we often call "security." I've heard it mentioned many times that Macs do not suffer from viruses because they have a smaller market share, and virus authors invest their time into attacking more dominant systems. People who say this generally go on to say that as the Mac gains a larger market share, the number of viruses available for it will grow. I think this is of little consequence.

    Macs are based on UNIX. It's not faked to appear like UNIX, it is actually UNIX. The permissions system means that a common virus could damage a user's home directory, but the system for the most part would remain unaffected, including other users. It is still possible to write root-kit style viruses that take advantages of subtle bugs in the operating system and other software to gain control of the system, but this is significantly more complicated to do, and IIRC it was Theo from the OpenBSD project who said that attacks like this require many steps that often must take advantage of many vulnerabilities to elevate priviledges, and by fixing even one bug, a whole category of vulnerabilities (even if other bugs remain) becomes inaccessible to a would-be attacker. This, in addition to much of the code underlying OS X being available for hacking up by anybody, in addition to other projects actually hacking on this code (improvements from projects like Samba, Apache, GCC, FreeBSD, even various Linux projects, make it into Darwin and OS X.... and most of all the fact that users don't run as administrators, all of these reasons make it much less likely that viruses could be as damaging as on Windows.

    • Re:UNIX and viruses (Score:5, Informative)

      by 140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @01:03PM (#15964146) Journal
      I've heard it mentioned many times that Macs do not suffer from viruses because they have a smaller market share,

      When people say something like that, hold them by hand and take them over to netcraft.com and show them the market share of Web servers. Apache has been owning >60% of it for a long long time compared with ~20% share for IIS. And point out that almost all the worms attack IIS and not Apache. The reason why Windows/IIS remain vulnerable is because MS wrote them, not becuase of their high/low market share.

    • by wfberg (24378) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @01:08PM (#15964197)
      [..]say that as the Mac gains a larger market share, the number of viruses available for it will grow. I think this is of little consequence.[..] The permissions system means that a common virus could damage a user's home directory, but the system for the most part would remain unaffected, including other users [..] and most of all the fact that users don't run as administrators, all of these reasons make it much less likely that viruses could be as damaging as on Windows

      I think this is thinking too much from the perspective of old-school "format c:" destructive virusses.

      Today's malware isn't purely destructive anymore; in fact, little incentive exists to create a virus that merely destroys stuff.

      Today we're seeing worms that are used to send spam or perform DDOS attacks, and ransomware that encrypts your files and will only unlock them after you pay up.

      Access to a user's home directory is perfectly adequate for ransomware. Access to networkresources is sufficient to turn your computer into a zombie. Privileged system access is not the holy grail; access to specific resources are.

      User-based security offers no protection against this. Instead people often install programs to limit access to, for example, network resources - a software firewall that will inspect a process to see if it's legit before letting it use the network. Likewise we will need a security subsystem that prevent programs to write to files not created by them. For example; firefox should be able to upload a word document (read permissions) perhaps, but surely only word or openoffice should be permitted to (over)write it.

      This is more along the lines of capabilities, but it could be grafted onto user-based security systems (just run processes as different users and give those users permissions only to write to their own files and/or read from their own directories, with some exceptions (e.g. the filemanager)).

      Todays programs are so flexible and scriptable, not to mention just plain big and unverifiable, let alone complex and exploitable, that simply saying 'these programs have been deemed safe by an administrator, so they can access all your files if you run them' is no longer an adequate means of making sure applications stay within bounds. We really need to make programs stay on their own turf. Not just files; how about that registry? Why the hell should every program be able to read all of it, and write almost all of it, even keys that belong to a different program?

      It's not just windows; MacOS lacks such stuff at the moment too (though it will undoubtedly be much easier to integrate into it than into Windows). Really only SE Linux is set up to handle this sort of thing.
    • by Laur (673497) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @01:16PM (#15964253)
      The permissions system means that a common virus could damage a user's home directory, but the system for the most part would remain unaffected, including other users.

      In reality, this is not an important distinction for home users. I don't know about you, but I don't care a whole lot about by system, I can re-install everything without too much trouble. Replacing years of digital family photograghs, financial records, etc. in my home directory? Impossible. This is why I backup my home directly regularly, but don't bother with the system.

  • by mellon (7048) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @12:47PM (#15964041) Homepage
    I think the conclusion that he draws is probably correct, but he doesn't really seem to explain why. The reason that systems like OS X and Linux are safer than Windows is not that launchd runs a shell, but that both Linux and OS X tend to run processes that don't need privileges as root.

    This is a substantial win. However, if you manage to compromise a process that is running as root, you do have full control of the machine, and you can install your own privileged software on the machine without an authentication prompt appearing on the console.

    Also, most of the man pages on OS X are woefully out of date, so giving the existence of these as a reason for why security is better on OS X is unfortunately a cruel joke. Third party apps from the Open Source community do often have better documentation, but the basic man pages from OS X are often years out of date - this is one of my pet peeves about OS X, I will admit.

    It sounds like the hack he's describing occurred because he'd installed third-party software that ran as a service with an open port, as SYSTEM (i.e., with full privileges) and that took over his machine. The reason this is less likely (not impossible, just less likely) is because if you are running a third party server process on OS X, it's probably a piece of open source software like Apache, which has been vetted to within an inch of its life, because it is open source, and the many people who care that it is secure have the freedom to check that it is secure. And it probably doesn't run with full privileges, as the author says.

    Anyway, like I said, he's right, but his reasoning is a little foggy. And it's important to be aware of the ways in which it's foggy, because this is your best chance of avoiding having your machine hacked.
  • by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @12:47PM (#15964042)

    Conceptually, I agree that LaunchD is a really slick idea and I really hope Linux and the BSDs take a good hard look at this code and the possibility of adopting it. That said, it is not a security panacea by any means, just one more clean, sensible implementation that leaves less room for a vulnerability. The thing that makes me hesitate to laud this feature, however, is the implementation. Apple has a lot of smart people working for them and a lot of old school UNIX geeks to whom secure programming is as natural as breathing. They also have a lot of coders and managers who realize that OS X is not a primarily security minded OS. Sure, it is better than Windows and on par with a desktop Linux distro, but it isn't a locked down OpenBSD install or a super secure Linux distro. They don't focus their efforts on security and it shows sometimes when they introduce new code. LaunchD replaces a number of time tested bits of code and while it is (IMHO) a much cleaner, nicer design I haven't a clue about how well written and tested it is, especially from a security perspective. I'd feel a lot better about claiming it as a security feature if I knew some white hats had pounded on it for a while and exposed anything Apple did not bother to think of. I'd feel a lot better if the OSS community in general jumped on it and adopted it, thus helping with this security testing and adding more eyes.

    I like LaunchD. I like OS X as a desktop. Lets just not get carried away here with random claims about security. OS X is inherently more secure than Windows, but that really isn't saying a lot. I'm not willing to just assume LaunchD is secure in and of itself, let alone that it will play a big part in securing the OS as a whole.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 23 2006, @12:49PM (#15964051)
    I have to take it with a large rock of salt when I see
    OS X has no user account with privileges exceeding root.

    being offered as a "reason why OS X is more secure than Windows."

    The article claims that Administrator on Windows is equivalent to root; and that SYSTEM is more powerful than Administrator (and by implication more powerful than root). This is nonsense.

    Administrator is indeed less powerful than SYSTEM. However, Administrator is equivalent to a user on the sudoers list and/or with group write access to system directories. SYSTEM is the correct equivalent to root.

    We may quibble about how well Administrator accounts are protected from trojans; or whether non-Administrator accounts on Windows are of much use; those are valid arguments. However, claiming that, somehow, SYSTEM on Windows is magically more capable than root is ridiculous.

    If anything, Windows has a somewhat better design in that it is possible to set up privileged accounts with a specific power that only root has on UNIX, yet not have any of the other root powers. However, this capability is quite underutilized, and in many ways is undermined by other (unfortunate) decisions that Microsoft made.
    • by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @01:32PM (#15964373)

      If anything, Windows has a somewhat better design in that it is possible to set up privileged accounts with a specific power that only root has on UNIX, yet not have any of the other root powers.

      I don't want to quibble about nomenclature and real differences between security layers or accounts or whatever between platforms, but I think you're a little mistaken here. One of the reasons LaunchD is being applauded in this article is because it allows you to run a given process with very specific permissions without going to hassle of trying to create a special user account and while also integrating the scheduling and resource allocation in one, nice, neat, hopefully secure package. It obviates the need for straining the "user" metaphor as is so common. I don't exactly think it is really appropriate to claim it as the security benefactor, however, when what we're really talking about is that services aren't written to require unneeded permissions as much as on Windows.

  • by sjonke (457707) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @12:50PM (#15964057) Journal
    What users need is in the box: Anti-virus[....]
    If it is, it's hidden pretty well. Macs don't come with anti-virus software.
  • by 140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @12:53PM (#15964088) Journal
    When you own 90% of the market, not being interoperable with others is a commercial advantage. Yes, security is compromised, but it (MS) has trained corporations and individuals it is THEIR (I mean user's) responsibility to install and update "critical" security updates and install firewalls and antivirus software and keep them up to date. Now MS is going to sell anti-virus products. It is going to profit from the shoddiness of its own product. It is a great scam if you can get into it.

    As long as corporations confuse interoperability with "windows compatibility" the scam will go on. Only when the commercial user who forks over billions of dollars to MS every year demand true interoperability and injects real competition, it will end. There is no advantage in being the first among the users pushing for it. Pepsi will not care as long as Coke is also spending relatively the same amount of money for similar services. But someday somewhere some corp will bite the bullet and spend what it takes to break the vendor-lock in, and only after that the security situation will improve.

  • by mpapet (761907) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @01:05PM (#15964169) Homepage
    maintaining gaps in Windows security to avoid competing with 3rd party vendors

    Whoever dreamed up this rationalization is gifted.

    The holes are there by design. As in security wasn't a part of the overall design. I would argue that it still isn't.

    Like all the versions that have come before, "It's more secure" for about a week after launch and then I'm back to cleaning out infected PC's. This works out great for me because it's my job. Personally, the people that take my advice to switch -always- thank me later for making a switch.
  • .Mac is not "safe". (Score:4, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 23 2006, @01:06PM (#15964177)
    offsite safe storage through .Mac

    dot Mac is not in any way secure / "safe storage". Unfortunately I bought a subscription before I realised how dangerously unsecure it is. When I started to configure Backup, I thought I'd do some digging first to see what was going on. It turns out that credentials are sent in plaintext. Communication between the user and mac.com is not encrypted. Storage on iDrive is also not encrypted. Backup archives have no encryption.

    It's completely wide-open to snooping attacks, and nobody should trust anything to it besides their weekly grocery list or other documents that they don't mind any snoopers (wireless interceptors or Apple employees) from freely browsing. I expect a major security breach is inevitable.. it's just a matter of time. It would take one person with a wireless snooper at Macworld, gathering hundreds of juicy high-profile targets to mess with - and dot Mac will be destroyed by a torrent of negative publicity.

    Of the entire Apple product range, dot Mac is the one that is most stuck in the early 90's. It works.. but is a severely inadequate solution.
  • by guruevi (827432) <evi.smokingcube@be> on Wednesday August 23 2006, @01:18PM (#15964269) Homepage
    Apparently this guy had the experience switching from Mac -> Windows and see what happens. A lot of people say it has to do with market penetration (Thanks to the M$ FUD) but nothing is less true. There are far more hosts running on any flavor of Unix or using the GNU tools or somewhat compatible tools for that matter than Windows hosts connected to the Internet.

    The biggest flaw in Windows is stuff running as SYSTEM. Try this in Windows: schedule a command in a terminal to run cmd.exe the next minute using the "at" command. As you will notice, you will get your cmd.exe... running as SYSTEM. You don't even have to be a very privileged user to do that, kill your own explorer.exe and start explorer.exe in that cmd.exe you have and guess what: you're running your system as SYSTEM. This would be like running Bash, KDE or Gnome as root, although possible, you can't elevate root out of standard user rights. Same thing for hooks into IIS (.NET) or any other application, they can all elevate to SYSTEM without too much trouble. Would be like suggesting to run Bind or Apache as root, and as any Unix guru would say: Blasphemy! Blasphemy! and you would feel the vibration of Rich Stevens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Richard_Stevens) spinning in his grave at the speed of the fan running in the server.
  • A few points (Score:5, Informative)

    by Foolhardy (664051) <(csmith32) (at) (gmail.com)> on Wednesday August 23 2006, @01:19PM (#15964278)
    The LanManServer service (aka Server) is mostly implemented in kernel mode in srv.sys, so most of the user-mode tirade is irrelevant.
    [From the article]

    SYSTEM is a pseudo-user (LocalSystem) that trumps Administrator (like UNIX's root) in privileges. SYSTEM cannot be used to log in, but it also has no password, no login script, no shell and no environment, therefore
    The activity of SYSTEM is next to impossible to control or log.

    SYSTEM doesn't trump Administrator(s): since either can control the kernel, they both represent full control. SYSTEM can't magically bypass security descriptors any more than administrators can; both have but indirect end runs available. SYSTEM's profile has the global system environment. In Win32, shells have considerably less importance, but SYSTEM processes can still have them. SYSTEM's actions can certainly be audited, so I'm not sure what they meant by impossible to log.

    Most of the code running on any Windows system at a given time is related to services, most or all of which run with SYSTEM privileges, therefore [...]

    There are lots of services running as low privilege LOCAL SERVICE and NETWORK SERVICE. Perhaps there could be more. Note that a single svchost can represent several services.

    Windows will notify you on an attempt to overwrite one of its own system files stored here, but does not try to protect privileged software.

    The binaries that implement system services are protected by system file protection. SFP isn't a security feature; it's there to work around buggy installer behavior.

    Windows requires that users log in with administrative privileges to install software, which causes many to use privileged accounts for day-to-day usage.

    This isn't true on a domain where the admin has designated installable packages, and RunAs works fine for installation programs that are written properly.

    Microsoft made it easy for commercial applications to refuse a debugger's attempt to attach to a process or thread.

    I'm not sure what's meant by this, but if your kernel is owned on any OS, a rootkit can be installed to evade any kind of debugging.

    Access to the massive, arcane, nearly unstructured, non-human-readable Windows Registry, which was to be obsolete by now, remains the only resource a Windows attacker needs to analyze and control a Windows system.

    Non-human-readable? Never used the registry editor? The key and value names seem to be in English... It's like saying that a filesystem isn't human-readable because you need ls. There are no plans to make the registry obsolete for system configuration. In fact, the new boot loader's config database is a registry hive. As for owning the computer throught the registry, every key is protected by an ACL. There's nothing inherant in the registry that allows an attack, privilege escilation or otherwise.

    Another trick that attackers learned from Microsoft is that Registry entries can be made read-only even to the Administrator, so you can find an exploit and be blocked from disarming it.

    So then the admin takes ownership of the keys in question, forcibly with the SeTakeOwnershipPrivilege, and since the owner of an object can always set the DACL, the admin returns himself full control. Either that or use the SeRestorePrivilege to overwrite the key directly.

    One of the strongest tools that Microsoft has to protect users from malware is Access Control Lists (ACLs), but standard tools make ACLs difficult to employ, so most opt for NTFS's inadequate standard access rights.

    What's wrong with the shell's ACL editor? What's wrong with the default permissions?

    OS X has no user account with privileges exceeding root.

    Since root can ignore security, this isn't saying anything. In Windows, only the kernel can bypasss security.

    Un

  • Secure principles (Score:5, Insightful)

    by blakestah (91866) <blakestah@gmail.com> on Wednesday August 23 2006, @01:48PM (#15964501) Homepage
    Mac is not dramatically more secure through launchd...

    It is simple really. Six years into OS X, growing market share, and no viruses in the wild.

    First principle. No ports open by default. Macs ship with a closed box. Plug it into the Internet, wait, and your machine will never get infected simply because it is not listening on any port, and no attacker has any foothold to get into the box. Over the years Windows has shipped with a wide variety of open ports, whether they be for netbios, smbd, messenger, IIS (on NT), or others. Many of these have been launching pads for viruses and worms.

    Second principle. Design the OS from the ground up to support privilege descalation. That is, make it so that every action on the machine is executed with User privileges or less, unless you really need more privilege. Launchd is a part of this. On Windows, you still have ActiveX with escalatable privilege, and people get infected from web surfing or opening email.

    That is really all it takes. Make it so a user cannot compromise the OS trivially, and there are no open ports, and you made a box as secure as a Mac. Once you start opening ports, you need to know what you are doing or you will be 0wn3d by some script kiddy. Make it secure by default, and force the user to take positive action to do anything that is a potential security problem (like installing executables from random places on the internet).
    • by MECC (8478) * on Wednesday August 23 2006, @12:54PM (#15964091)
      Maybe with apple incorporating it they have the green light to go ahead with it.

      Apple doesn't incorporate anti-virus/anti-malware into their OS. They incorporated good security, and made good use of it.

      MS could easily do the same even more with their more featurefull security model, if they wanted to, without incorporating any anti-virus/anti-malware into their operating system. Odd that instead of fixing their security problems, they just opted to compete with anti-virus/anti-malware vendors.

    • Re:Market Share (Score:4, Informative)

      by n2art2 (945661) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @01:01PM (#15964138) Homepage
      to be honest I would go after OS X. Why? Because no one else is. Those who get known are those who, "think different."
    • Re:Market Share (Score:5, Informative)

      by Bartman_279 (940580) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @01:26PM (#15964322)
      If OSX had that kind of a market share, youd bet your ass that everyone would be breaking down its walls, in exactly the same way.

      There are PLENTY of hackers out there, of every level, who would absolutely love to be able to point to themselves as the first "l33t hax0r" to write a real world OS X virus and "wipe that stupid little grin off their [Mac user's] smug little faces."

      And in the six years OS X has been out, not one, NOT ONE, has succeeded.

    • by Dareth (47614) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @01:19PM (#15964277)
      Some of the criticisms in the article are perfectly valid, but many of them are (supposedly) going to be fixed in Windows 95 (whenever that gets out..) Is that out yet?

      Some of the criticisms in the article are perfectly valid, but many of them are (supposedly) going to be fixed in Windows 98 (whenever that gets out..) Is that out yet?

      Some of the criticisms in the article are perfectly valid, but many of them are (supposedly) going to be fixed in Windows 2000 (whenever that gets out..) Is that out yet?

      Some of the criticisms in the article are perfectly valid, but many of them are (supposedly) going to be fixed in Windows ME (whenever that gets out..) Is that out yet?

      Some of the criticisms in the article are perfectly valid, but many of them are (supposedly) going to be fixed in Windows XP (whenever that gets out..) Is that out yet?

      Sorry to be redundant, have you heard this joke before already?
    • by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) on Wednesday August 23 2006, @01:55PM (#15964554)

      I'm just wondering if anyone has ever built a firewall device from a Windows box.

      Please shut up right now before you give some braindead manager an idea. We have a projector some creep built on Windows and we can't even keep it from crashing all the time. Do you know how much of an idiot you look like when you're giving a presentation and your projector crashes, you have to pull the plug and listen to the Windows start-up chime? Its like telling people your monitor crashed. They look at you like your brains just dribbled out of your ears.