Air Marshals Place Innocents on Secret Watch List

An anonymous reader writes "The Denver Channel 7 News reports that federal air marshals are operating under a quota for reporting a minimum number of suspicious travelers which is resulting in innocent people being placed on a secret government watch list. From the article: 'These unknowing passengers who are doing nothing wrong are landing in a secret government document called a Surveillance Detection Report, or SDR.'"

No wonder

[MECC (8478)]

It was posted anonymously...

Re:No wonder

[PhrostyMcByte (589271)]

Apparently my dad was put on this a while ago when he flew into Las Vegas.

Nobody bothered him that day, but a few days later when he was checking in to go back home he was told he was put on a watch list. I guess the checkin person probably shouldn't have told him that, but she said it only meant a little extra attention on him at the airport and not to worry.

Since then, no one at checkin has mentioned him being on a list. However after that he hasn't been allowed to go back into the terminal to pick up my younger brother (which he had done several times before).

Re:No wonder

[Andrewkov (140579)]

Have you considered the fact that your dad might indeed be a terrorist??

Re:No wonder

[MECC (8478)]

Makes me wonder if that's how GWB's brain cell works.

Spread calm, spread fear, spread calm, spread fear - oops gotta pee - spread calm, spread fear...

Secret government list?

[Weaselmancer (533834)]

Well, I wouldn't call it a secret anymore.

Re:Secret government list?

[Aqua_boy17 (962670)]

These unknowing passengers who are doing nothing wrong are landing in a secret government document called a Surveillance Detection Report, or SDR

And WTF is this? Is this like being put on double-secret probation? When you have a government program that, according to the article, withholds bonuses and raises based on quotas, I suppose we shouldn't be surprised when agents just make stuff up. How incredibly ludicrous is this? We've once again managed to build the incompetence right there into the system.

Boy, I'm feeling more secure everyday...Not.

Re:Wait

[nsayer (86181)]

Americans are so safe now!

Actually, since 9/11, American's are now less safe than before.

How can that be?

Because the cost of airline travel in both time, money, and convenience has gone up. That has made more Americans look to alternatives, like driving, which are much, much less safe (per passenger-mile).

We'd probably be more safe had we responded to 9/11 by literally doing nothing at all.

Good thing..

[ackthpt (218170)]

Good thing I'm too broke to fly.

HERE is the program for the broke patriots

[megaditto (982598)]

Too cheap to fly? Got a car? Love America and hate terrorists?

Sign up for Highway Watch brought to you by DHS and the American Trucking Association!

http://www.highwaywatch.com/newtoHWW/index.html [highwaywatch.com]

Obvious solution....

[MagicDude (727944)]

The marshalls should just put everyone under the age of 5 on the "no fly" list. Marshall's meet their quota, and the flight is much more enjoyable for everyone else. Everybody wins.

Re:Obvious solution....

[Dr Tall (685787)]

So 20 years from now everyone between the age of 20 and 25 will be on the watch list? You're letting the 26 year-old terrorists win.

Re:Obvious solution....

[by Anonymous Coward]

Won't somebody think of the terrorist children?

Re:Obvious solution....

[lewp (95638)]

We'll all be on the watch list by then anyway.

IT?

[mrxak (727974)]

I'm sort of curious as to why this was placed under IT, and not YRO or Politics...

Re:IT?

[idontgno (624372)]

YRO would be too suspicious. Let's not make their jobs easier, eh?

Re:IT?

[StikyPad (445176)]

Strategic Data Report
26 July, 2006

Agent: StikyPad
Subject: mrxak

Individual was seen on Wednesday July 26, at approximately 0619 making suspicious inquiries regarding the nature of data categorization and storage. The subject posed as a "concerned reader," and asked what appeared to be harmless questions, however informants have stated that he may, in fact, have been planning to submit his own stories to improper categories. Surveillance indicates that this is just the beginning of a massive campaign of disinformation and misinformation designed to thwart intelligence collection and law enforcement capabilities -- clearly a grave threat to national security.

It is further believed that "mrxak" may actually be an alias, however his true identity has yet to be discovered. Subject must remain under continued observation at all times.

NNNN


Haha.. made quota!

The gov't ruining innocent peoples lives

[hsmith (818216)]

Boy, color me shocked.

Sad that this "protection" we all pay for is causing headaches for people who are minding their own business.

Re:The gov't ruining innocent peoples lives

[by Anonymous Coward]

I have a relatively common anglo name (like John Doe) which has found its way onto the air watch list. To try and take myself off of the list, I had sent stacks of documentation, my birth certificate, copies of my passport and volumes of other personal crap to the TSA with a request to clear my name. The TSA, after many months, sent back a one page form letter that said they had taken some "actions", but said that those actions may or may not be ignored by the airlines. Some airlines still will not let me check in without going thru the counter and a confirmation phone-call to somebody in the back room somewhere. I don't know if that watch list is the same as the SDR, but it's causing a lot of unnecessary and unwarranted grief.

I'm sure Bin-Hiding is laughing his ass off. He won.

Re:The gov't ruining innocent peoples lives

[TopShelf (92521)]

That's not surprising - we had a consultant on our project go back to India on a 3-week vacation, which got extended another 6 weeks because his name was on the "do not fly" list. It took him that long to get his identify clarified and his visa restored, along with monumental efforts on our end to work through Senatorial offices, etc. to try and clear through the red tape.

And in the end, our company's legal advisors said that 6 weeks should be considered a very quick turnaround under the circumstances...

It's not so bad...

[Lord_Slepnir (585350)]

If you're not smuggling drugs, then you should have nothing to worry about with the random cavity searches.

</sarcasm>

Seriously, I can't think of a worse system than quotas to put investigators under. It just screams Civil-Rights-Violation-Waiting-To-Happen.

Re:It's not so bad...

[Brandybuck (704397)]

California (unofficially) has their housing inspectors on a quota system. You are expected to write up at least one violation per inspection. So building contractors learn to create one obvious but easy to fix code violation on every house they built. The inspector would find it, write it up, and leave.

The problem isn't contractors taking advantage of the system, but rather that it's bureaucrats running the system. You don't get paid any more for doing a good job instead of a bad job, and the bureacracy as a whole actually benefits from bad jobs because they'll get more funding to fix the problem.

From the Marshall's Journal

[Aqua_boy17 (962670)]

Just got my ass chewed out for being under quota. Gotta keep my eyes open. But look ,over there, by the window. That frail old lady kind of looks suspicious to me. Got kind of an evil look about her. And what's that in her hands? OMG - Holy crap - knitting needles!! Quick, take her down she might just be trying to knit....

(wait for it)


AN AFGHAN!

Justice, in America?

[schroedogg (596283)]

What would you expect? It's not as if we have a true justice system here in America. A criminal breaks into a home and causes $2,000 worth of damage and what do we do? Feed him and take car of him in a jail while the homeowner is left to clean up the mess and insurance money (paid by the homeowner) takes care of the losses. Or, more often than not, simply let the criminal go with a warning. Then we spend our money falsely accusing innocent people just to keep up a "quota". Greed then drives what we like to think of as justice. It happens more than you think: e.g. officer's needing quotas for traffic violations & arrests and so caring more about their quota than justice in a certain situation. I know, it's not all bad and there are cops and agents that really DO care about justice. It's just the system that is messed up...

Re:Justice, in America?

[StikyPad (445176)]

What are you talking about?!?!? The U.S. incarceration rate in 2004 was the highest in the world [cnn.com], at 724 per 100,000 population. Second was Russia, at 532 per 100,000. Obviously we're doing something right, catching all those criminals. We're number one!

Ayn Rand was an optimist.

[Tackhead (54550)]

"Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against - then you'll know that this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We're after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens' What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted - and you create a nation of law-breakers - and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Rearden, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with."

Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

...and when one only has so many laws on the books that the libraries are ready to undergo gravitational collapse into a black hole, and when one has enough criminals that it has a higher incarceration rate than the Soviet Union (the very same dystopian hellhole that spawned Rand's original screed in 1957), and still doesn't have enough criminals, one fabricates them out of thin air.

Homeland Security: Our budget is proportional to the number of terrorists we find. When there aren't enough terrorists, we make them.

Ayn Rand was an optimist.

Re:Ayn Rand was an optimist.

[Bryansix (761547)]

It's true though. I had a law professor (business law) tell me that the law is designed so that you are always breaking it at any given time. Then the authorities enforce the law when they feel it is required or they want to "throw the boook at you".

Re:Ayn Rand was an optimist.

[drooling-dog (189103)]

...and when one only has so many laws on the books that the libraries are ready to undergo gravitational collapse into a black hole

Well, the Bushco solution to that is simply to keep laws secret. Not only do you save printing costs and shelf space, but it then becomes impossible to be sure that you're not breaking them. And when you inevitably do, your lawyer can't defend you because she's not allowed to read the applicable law, either.

All hail the GOP!

I'd rather be safe than free

[by Anonymous Coward]

How about you?

[neo con parody off]

Re:I'd rather be safe than free

[BobSutan (467781)]

"I'd rather be safe than free."

This is the most concise interpretation of the Franklin quote I've seen to date. Seriously. Good job.

The unfortunate part is that a lot of people in this country really would rather be safe than free. Or to be more precise, they want to FEEL safe than be free. True safety will never occur. Period. Just when you think every risk has been mitigated something new will come along. Its just human nature. Hell, scratch that, its the universe. Whether it be an act of violence, terrorism, or an asteroid slamming into the Earth, bad things will always find a way. The only solution is to accept it, move on, and live life to the fullest.

In regards to terrorism, Americans simply need accept that despite our best efforts bad people will do bad things from time to time, and if anything bad does happen they'll be punished for it. Surrendering to our fears and trading liberty for security is the cowards way out. The last 5 years has been a dark time in our nation's history, but its time we change that and start embracing the liberties we still have left. Put your chin up and your best foot forward and lets show them they can't keep us down.

oblig. 1984 reference

[cvd6262 (180823)]

"Innocent passengers are being entered into an international intelligence database as suspicious persons, acting in a suspicious manner on an aircraft ... and they did nothing wrong," said one federal air marshal.

2006.07.25 DenverChannel malsaid "unorthodox" as "suspicious". rectify.

Re:oblig. 1984 reference

[Tackhead (54550)]

> > "Innocent passengers are being entered into an international intelligence database as suspicious persons, acting in a suspicious manner on an aircraft ... and they did nothing wrong," said one federal air marshal.
>
> 2006.07.25 DenverChannel malsaid "unorthodox" as "suspicious". rectify.

2006.07.25 cvd6262 malsaid oldspeak "unorthodox" as "facecrime" rewrite fullwise.

It was terribly dangerous to let your thoughts wander when you were in any public place or within range of a telescreen. The smallest thing could igve you away. A nervous tic, an unconscious look of anxiety, a habit of muttering to yourself, anything that carried with it the suggestion of abnormality, of having something to hide. In any case, to wear an improper expression on your face, was itself a punishable offense. There was even a word for it in Newspeak: facecrime"

ref unbook 1984, author unperson orwell

Quotas for security personnell

[Opportunist (166417)]

Just how silly is that, I ask? How do you meet a quota when you're looking out for suspicious people? You declare someone suspicious who isn't, how else?

God, just how DUMB are those national security morons? If anything, the NSA makes me feel LESS safe when I'm in the US. I feel like I'm under constant surveillance, being a suspect for being ... well, there.

Is that what you want to accomplish, NSA? Is that the goal? Alienate the rest of the world, even those that used to LOVE your country, turn the rest of the world into your enemy so you can have perpetual war? The US are turning faster and faster into everything I hated about the communist system.

Re:Quotas for security personnell

[Chris Burke (6130)]

The US are turning faster and faster into everything I hated about the communist system.

Here's what really pisses me off about it:

When I was in grade school, I was taught about how great and free the USA was, and how horrible the USSR was, and the reasons were that over there people had to show their papers everywhere they went, the government was constantly spying on them, and they could be locked away without due process of law based solely on the accusation of treasonous acts.

Now those same things that made the USSR so bad are starting to happen here, and I'm told that this is okay because we're the USA, and we're inherently better.

It used to be that the USA was great and free because we didn't do those things. Now we're great and free because we're the USA, and therefore its okay for us to do these things. Greatness is now an inherent property of the USA, not the result of our actions.

The sad part is that I really believed what I was taught as a kid, that the USA was great because it did great things, and seeing what's going on now, even if it isn't nearly as bad as the USSR, strikes deeply at that childish part of me that still believes in honor, freedom, and greatness.

I think you're all missing something very bad...

[voice_of_all_reason (926702)]

The air marshals, whose identities are being concealed, told 7NEWS that they're required to submit at least one report a month. If they don't, there's no raise, no bonus, no awards and no special assignments.

If true, these people have just admitted they weren't subjecting innocent people to punishment because they'd lose their job otherwise and be unable to support their family -- an understandable, if still morally weak position. No, they did it because they wanted more money. Or a dental plan. Or a longer vacation. That's what's known as being stunning and embarassingly selfish.

At the risk of godwinning myself, what's that famous quote about the holocause that goes along the line of "there will always be number-crunchers behind the scenes eager to see if they can make the count even higher next time?"

Re:I think you're all missing something very bad..

[jambarama (784670)]

Ironically enough, the Air marshalls are basically ensuring they won't stop any terrorists. The list will become so bloated, cumbersome, invasive and obnoxious that people will stop taking it seriously. The real work of hunting down potential terrorists - that some of the marshalls did - will be drowned out by innocent people who looked at the lazy marshalls cross eyed.

Often, beurocracy cannot sustain its own weight. It expands and expands until it cannot do the purpose for which it was designed. Then it gets axed by a budget cutter, is reincarnated as lightweight version of itself, and expands until... you get the idea. It isn't a viscious cycle so much as a waste of resources and failed programs.

Bigger than the Las Vegas Air Marshll office

[GlowingWhispers (952001)]

A couple of thoughts. 1. Sadly various 'US no fly lists' are being used by airlines in countries that don't yet have their own list -- e.g. Canada -- in an attempt to reduce liability. Meaning, the implications of this article are greater than some might realize. 2. A key question about no-fly lists is the criteria used to put people on it. Ideally, it should be transparent so, for instance, everyone out there with a criminal record isn't concerned every time they get on a plane that law enforcement officials will descend upon them. Beyond the quota issue, this article points to a series of systemic problems relating to the criteria used to make these lists, which from my reading seem to be: a. arbitrary b. left to individual discretion c. without oversight or review checks and balances d. unappealable, regardless of how flimsy the evidence is. As more and more countries draft their own no-fly lists, such issues are likely to grow in importance and become bigger problems within the international (rather just American) political sphere.

Please read the related article.....

[Conspiracy_Of_Doves (236787)]

There is an article [thedenverchannel.com] linked to from that page about how horribly mismanaged the Federal Air Marshals Service is.

Re:Please read the related article.....

[mambodeath (515273)]

i think people are missing the point. there IS NO threat that these air marshalls are supposedly there to protect us from. (this is clearly obvious from tfa and the one linked in this thread.) there may be miscellaneous threats, but they cannot protect us from those any better than pre-air marshall security.

they are there for psychological puposes, so that people who think there is a threat feel safer. people can point to some action that the government is doing. "look, they have air marshalls and no-fly lists."

there is no worldwide terror organzation or network. go to archive.org and download (bbc documentary) the power of nightmares (i wonder how long it'll be up?) i have friends who work for "homeland security" and it's all a sham. too bad it costs us money.

Quantity or Quality

[NMagic (982573)]

This seems to be a case of education. They haven't invested the time/funds to train the marshals enough to recognize who they're looking for. Instead of fixing the problem, they compensate with higher numbers to keep up with the odds.

This is your typical case of quantity being chosen instead of quality.

Wrong focus

[Kesch (943326)]

I think these guys are spending too much time looking for possible terrorists and not enough time on the real threats.

Like snakes.

What I'm really scared of is mothaf*cking snakes on mothaf*cking planes!

no big surprise here

[jt418-93 (450715)]

the system is broken from the top down. the only solution is to format the goverment and reinstall. this image is corrupt.

There is a reason ...

[golodh (893453)]

*sighs* There is a reason that Americans are distrustful of governments, their own included. The article may have identified one. Mindless stupidity.

Why? Because even if governments adhere to what we might call the "industry-average in mindless stupidity" governments can cause far more damage than most industries. From the article:

"Q: What kind of impact would it have for a flying individual to be named in an SDR?

A: That could have serious impact ... They could be placed on a watch list. They could wind up on databases that identify them as potential terrorists or a threat to an aircraft. It could be very serious," said Don Strange, a former agent in charge of air marshals in Atlanta. He lost his job attempting to change policies inside the agency."

Ok, this former agent lost his job because he tried to change policies inside the agency. Anyone want to bet this was over SDR quota? And what other enlightened "policies" are in effect? And yes ... such things will stick around ... if only because it's a bit hard to shop around for alternative governments.

Ok ... so putting someone's name in an SDR has potentially serious consequences for that person. Add to this the (probably MBA-driven) desire for "quantifiable targets" and see the result. From the article "Although the agency strongly denies any presence of a quota system, Las Vegas-based air marshals have produced documents that show their performance review is directly linked to producing SDRs.".

Great ... just great. That leaves us with only one option ... don't fly near the end of the month.

Guy I know is on the list

[wowbagger (69688)]

I know a guy who is on the no-fly list. It's a real bitch, because his job requires him to fly a lot.

So, he goes to the airport, checks his luggage, deals with the BS of being on the list, and flys to his job.

Whereupon he gets his luggage, puts on his uniform, gets his piece, puts on his ID, gets in his plane, and takes off.

He's a commercial airline pilot - authorized to carry a pistol in the cockpit, and to fly a plane full of people.

But he cannot board a flight as a passenger without a bunch of BS because his name is on the No Fly list.

Re:Guy I know is on the list

[BandwidthHog (257320)]

My mom’s boyfriend is on the list. He drives a fuel tanker, so he gets briefings from Homeland Security as they are considered terrorist targets. When he gets on a plane he’s a suspected terrorist, but when he’s in his truck the feds want him armed.

Re:WTF

[andrewman327 (635952)]

So the Denver news is now a reliable source of information? Let's see some Washington Post or NYT article being linked to.

Personally I disagree with quotas in law enforcement, as I do not think that they help catch the bad guys out there. I do think there is a lot more to the story than TFA indicates.

Fahrenheit 451

[teasea (11940)]

This is in response to All of the Above rather than the direct parent comment.

In this book, they "killed" Montag at the end of the book by finding a random guy walking down the street and shooting him while the live cameras proclaimed that the "dangerous criminal" has been taken off the streets by the ever-vigilant government.

Simple smoke and mirror style politics. We need X number of criminals to justify actions A, B and C.

Obviously this does not apply to an Air Marshall who gets drunk and falls asleep on the plane but is the guy on the De Moines to Bend Oregon run going to find as many suspicious people as the guy on the NY to Boston run?

Bullshit

[Tony (765)]

That is utter and complete bullshit.

I am on that list. I don't know why; I have never been arrested or convicted or tried or anything else. I served honorably in the US Army. I fly all the time.

About 18 months ago, I got on this watch list. It isn't so secret if you are a traveller. You can't use the fancy-shmancy self-service kiosks. You have to wait for a representative to help you. They have to make phone calls. The entire process takes an addiotional 10-15 minutes of not only my time, but the service representative, as well.

There was some poor Thai girl in Bangkok. It was her second day on the job, and she freaked out when my name came up as I was checking in. It took them about 20 minutes to make the call to the US and get stuff squared away.

No, I have not been arrested because of it. But, as an innocent person, why am I singled out for bureaucratic harrasement? I am denied the conveniences of other citizens simply because of my name existing on a watch list.

So, I call bullshit.

Re:Bullshit

[nojomofo (123944)]

My 3-year-old nephew is on the list. This has resulted in such events as him getting into a tugging match with a TSA screener over his teddy bear....

Re:clubhouse

[Stripe7 (571267)]

Actually getting lost in Washington DC is probably enough to get you on the list. I spent a night driving around in circles around the White House late at night looking for my hotel. Took me about 4 trips around it before I found my hotel. It was up a narrow street with a very small sign pointing to the street. The view of the sign was mostly blocked by a hedge. My consultant partner did the same thing, except it took him even more circles and he ended up being stopped by the Secret Service who directed him to the hotel. This was before 9/11. I imagine things would be worse now days, hopefully the Secret Service has figured out that they need to get that hotel's sign enlarged and remove a certain hedge or they will keep having to stop lost visitor's from circling the White House, and adding lots of innocent names to their watchlist. Garbage in garbage out, the more garbage they toss into the Federal database the less useful it is and the more likely real terrorists will actually get through.

Re:News for nerds?

[glwtta (532858)]

I'm sorry, which bias is this? The bias against putting innocent people on government watchlists to fill a quota?

It's probably posted because people here seem to care about civil rights and, in particular, about how they apply to domestic government surveilance. What's wrong with that?

this whole site slides further and further to the left every day

So? If the concept of civil liberty offends you, then I guess this isn't the site for you. Problem solved.
(I love how 'left' and 'liberal' are dirty words now, say what you want about the Republican party, but their PR is top notch)