NH Man Arrested for Videotaping Police 1232
macinrack writes to mention a story about a New Hampshire man who was arrested for videotaping police on his doorstep, using a fairly standard security camera system. He was officially charged with 'two felony counts of violating state eavesdropping and wiretap law by using an electronic device.' From the article: "The security cameras record sound and audio directly to a videocassette recorder inside the house, and the Gannons posted warnings about the system, Janet Gannon said. On Tuesday night, Michael Gannon brought a videocassette to the police department, and asked to speak with someone in 'public relations,' his wife said and police reported. Gannon wanted to lodge a complaint against Karlis, who had come to the family's house while investigating their sons, Janet Gannon said. She said Karlis showed up late at night, was rude, and refused to leave when they asked him."
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Now something definitely seems wrong with this police department since the charges are nonsense and it seems like, at that point, they are harassing the citizen. But they do mention the guy's kid is being investigated for some crimes, the guy hasn't been cooperative in the past, and has been verbally abusive. And my completely inappropriate "judge a book by its cover" sensors tell me that by looking at the guy's picture in the article, he rather looks like an uncooperative, verbally abusive redneck. So I suspect that while these charges against him are completely wrong and inappropriate, I get the distinct feeling this isn't some average Joe that's being randomly victimized for no reason by the police. I think there's more to the story here than we know.
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The problem is that in our society we have arbitrarily elevated cops to the status of "real" heroes because they "risk their lives everyday for the 'safety' of the community." A few months ago a metro officer was killed in the line of duty and there was this huge procession and they made a big deal about it.
What no one bothered to mention is that it had been nearly 15 years since a metro cop had been killed. More people are killed/maimed/whatever working on construction sites here. Way more. The fact is that we've put these servants, and that's what they are, on a pedestal when it's a job they should serve with humility and compassion for their community.
For everyone one "real" criminal they haul in I wonder how many nothing-but-revenue tickets they pass out? There's nothing "heroic" or "honorable" about hiding your car in a poorly marked 25 zone that some jackass decided should take up a block in the middle of 45s and ticket people there. Which is another problem. Popular media shows cops fighting dangerous "real" criminals most of the time. Even the show Cops doesn't show some guy sitting in a car, "This is Unit 328, hiding here at the bottom of a hill where people generally go faster than normal. We've made over $3,000 on tickets today and we've still got a few hours to go. One day and I've almost made my entire week's quota."
And EVERY cop is dirty. Every single one of them. Either by their actions or their omissions. Ask ANY cop whether or not he/she knows a dirty cop. They'll say yes. After that, ask that person what he/she has done about said dirty cop. Nothing. A big fat nothing. And what's worse is when SOMETHING does happen they always get some ridiculous slap on the wrist. If I worked for a company that got sued for $50,000 and LOST on account of something I did, I'd be gone. I'd be fired. Not here. They get a week of PAID suspension and they're back on the street supposedly learning their lesson.
THey've become an elevated class and just like all elevated classes, they act the part. Like pricks. Total pricks. If they accuse you, regardless of what procedures they seem to ignore, you're guilty and that's that. Add that to the fact that there's no fucking accountability for lower court judges in this country, it's just easier to plea out even if you haven't done anything wrong because they make it expensive to fight.
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Every cop is not "dirty". You just don't know shit about cops. It's understandable really. Not many people really do know what they're talking about when they decide to start venting on law enforcement. People all want the world to work the way it's supposed to but nobody wants to be inconvenienced by the law themselves. Let me drive faster than the speed limit, don't give me any shit about the smell of beer on my breath, and get out of my yard because it's my right to kick my old lady's ass if she's out of line.
If you think cops are all total pricks you should see some of the total pricks they have to deal with.
Actual strike that comment. It wouldn't do you any good. You probably are one.
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Every time someone whines about how cops get no "respect" I ask them what the "straight" cops do to earn it when the crooked ones lose it. A cop gets crooked and the "straight" ones are all over it to make sure that "one of their own" gets away with it.
Take for instance the recent HPD crime lab scandal in Houston. Years of perjury and tainted evidence, and when a defense attourney finally discovers that they've been lying on the stand about their DNA tests (and possibly ballistics and other tests as well) all the cops and prosecutors have NO idea that they've been lying all the time. They are SHOCKED by the fact that they've put away 100s of people on bogus evidence. They just thought they were always SO lucky that the number one suspect always came back as a match and everyone could go home early, right?
But hey, the good news is that now, after a year of an internal investigation (since the PD couldn't scrape together the pennies for an external audit) everything is hunky dory again and the HPD crime lab is ready to ride again.
The only DNA analyst fired in the Houston Police Department crime lab scandal got her job back Tuesday. [truthinjustice.org] Whooo-eee what's that STANK?!
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Most cops will be nice to you if you bend over and let them do whatever they want. Sure, sure. But whatever you do, don't assert your rights. Then you'll find that the majority become pricks, plain and simple because if you don't want to let them search your car or your house you MUST be hiding something and your MUST be a criminal.
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From artcile, it looks like the Nahsua police department has no problem breaking the law. The article clearly says the policman did not have warrant yet and refused to leave the property when asked. This is all too typical, the police see the need to vigourously enforce this wiretapping law but will NEVER charge the officer with trepass even though there's video tape envidence of the crime. If the police are so concerned about illegal wiretapping, I suggest they get some warrents to search the local at&t switch room and see what they find.
There was no reasonable expectation of privacy (Score:5, Insightful)
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Ah, but if you read all of the statute, you'll read the part that says
I wonder... if you're standing in front of a surveilliance camera, on someone's front porch next to the street, and there are signs pointing out the camera... are you really justified in believing that the camera couldn't possibly be recording you?
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Yes - in your lilly-white gated community, if you tip your fedora to the cops and never question the discrimination de jur, you will probably not have your flat flattened. but if you happen to embrace an unpopular economic theory; stand by to be victimized.
By the way - please continue to enjoy the freedoms which people such as yourself have not and could never have defended, advanced, or invented. The ignorant are blessed with the same liberties as those by whose toil, vigilance, perception, and sacrifice - all personal freedoms are maintained.
It doesn't really matter if there is more to the story or not - the important fact is that the police are trying to set a precedent that one cannot - in one's own home - operate a camera for the purpose of defending one's self against aggressors. If we allow civil rights to be eroded for others - the erosion will quickly spread to one's own front door.
AIK
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There may be, and I agree with you about the whole "treat your neighbor as you would be treated" thingy... BUT...
The fact remains that he was arrested at the police station where he voluntarily went, with video tape in tow. They didn't arrest him until they found out they had been taped by a security camera. Now, apparently security cameras are legal for businesses, for govn't installations, but according to the police department, are now illegal for securing your own home without the consent of the person that you don't want at your house.
Further, the police were there without a warrant, which means they are unallowed to sieze anything, including the video tape. Beyond that, although I suppose the man's front stoop is considered private property, you have no right outside of your own home to not be videotaped, as is apparent in any store/stadium/street/elevator/etc. as well as upheld by courts.
Now, I have to imagine that this will be crushed by the courts - I cannot believe that you cannot tape your own premises for safety - or WHATEVER - reason. Should you be allowed to, I am having flashbacks to reading 1984 with our hero hiding from the eyes of the ever-on cameras in his home.
Tin-foil hat aside, to your idea of whether or not this person was a PITA to the police at his house that night, well... it's apparently all on tape ;)
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You need to remember, that cops deal with assholes all day long - and they are conditioned to think that if they think you are guilty - then by god - you ARE guilty - and by default - an asshole.
So, even if you are EXTREMELY polite and VERY accommodating, they can STILL treat you liek shit. One time I was attacked by an insane ex girlfriend of mine in my own home, after she had trashed my bedroom, and caused about $1000 of damage in my bathroom. I had to eject her from the house, using the minimum force required.
I was bleeding from her scratches to my face when I got her out of the house, and I was shaking like a leaf. I actually rang the police straight away and said that I had been attacked in my own home, and that I had to eject her. Oh, she tried to kick her way through my plate glass window next to my door too, to get back inside. I thought she was gonna sever her foot if she broke the glass.
Anyway - she ended up calling the cops - and they rang me back telling me it wasn't over. They arrived and came in, and the fuckers are reading me my rights in my own home, when I'm the one dripping blood!
I made a full statement the following day - and then the prosecuting sargeant really went to town on me - reckoning he was gonna charge me with assault (I weighed twice what she did) and that I was gonna go to prison but worst of all - that I was a bad man. (Which I am not.) This because - in HIS experience, if there's an altercation - then it's always the asshole guy attacking the tiny, defenceless girl.
I went to see my lawyer straight away - and due to me having two witnesses in the house at the time - who didn't see a lot but heard it all - she said that she'd rip the poilice a new one if they even THOUGHT about arresting me.
I confidently returned to the police station. Took some more verbal abuse from the sargeant before telling him my lawyer would rip him a new one, and that I was leaving. He told me he wanted me to hand in my 2 rifles, and my gun license. I told him that I would do no such thing - and that he should find some criminals to harrass.
That was the end of that. But a very harrowing time.
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You must live in suburbia. I used to think the same thing when I lived in a nice quiet suburb. Now that I live in the city, amongst a predominatly minority population, I can see that that isn't the case. Being hassled by cops is a part of life now. For example I was accused of stealing a car by a cop while I was walking home from work one day. On another occasion a friend of mine was pulled over while driving home from my apartment at 2AM for having something hanging in his rearview mirror. The cops attempted to search his car, but being an intelligent citizen he refused because they had no probable cause, and the cop was rude as hell telling my friend that he must have something to hide if he was unwilling to have his car searched.
I have never had to deal with harrassment like that when I lived in the suburbs. The cops practically camp out in my apartment complex. One night I was walking home and there were five cops with their guns drawn patrolling my neighborhood on foot. It was a little frightening. One time I was a victim of fraud and I went to the police station to make a complaint and I was treated like the criminal. Let me just say that living in the city is an eye-opening experience (and I'm not talking Manhatten).
That shouldn't matter. It's your right as an American to be a prick. There isn't a law against being an asshole, even though I don't like dealing with people like that either. Any customer facing job requires that you deal with pains in the ass, but as a professional you deal with it. Cops are supposed to be professionals. If it was a case of being uncooperative with the police during an investigation then you can be charged for that.
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I truly was given a speeding ticket at 3am on a Tuesday morning for driving 1MPH over the speed limit, cop was sitting right at the reduced speed sign where the speed dropped from 55MPH to 25MPH, and there was a light that was red immediately after the sign he was at. I was the only car on the road. I tried being nice.. he acted like a prick to me about it.
Cops are pricks.
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Also, 1mph over the limit? That's within normal variance. Hell, many precincts will reprimand officers for writing anyone up for less than 5mph or 7mph over. Check the laws in your area, you may be able to file a complaint. They HAVE to provide some lenience for coasting down (e.g., they CANNOT write you up 10 feet after the speed drop, it's unreasonable and entrapment) and they HAVE to provide some lenience for terrain (e.g., on a long downgrade, don't be an asshole and write someone up for 1mph over, or if a steep grade, even 10mph might be reasonable given the alternative - brake fade rendering brakes useless).
That's like an officer pulling someone over for proceeding through a red light when the driver was previously waiting PAST THE WHITE LINE for an opportunity to proceed. The driver is OBLIGATED to proceed through the red light to clear the crosswalk and intersection, and yet I've seen people pulled over for precisely that. Following the law can get you fucked just as badly as ignoring it. Also, some officers like to pull people over for passing in passing zones (this happened to me) - why? Because the rookie "doesn't think passing zones should be legal." -- I begged that prick to write me up and then follow me to the station when I go talk with his supervisor (incidentally I've seen him around town since then and he's actually been pretty nice - I think he's gotten over his power trip of being an officer).
On the other hand, some officers aren't all that bad and will give verbal warning for extremely excessive speeds. Just like everyone else there are good officers and then there are assholes. Unfortunately, the parent happened to run into one of the assholes - probably a rookie.
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I'm willing to believe that 99% of cops treat their co-workers different than they do civilians.
Its obvious he was obstructing Justice and to have a son on weapons charges will bring many police into the picture.
So, by your definition, refusing to allow a police officer into your home is obstruction of justice? That's a reason to knock on a door at 11:30pm, stick your foot in the door and refuse to leave? If he wasn't a cop, I would have either forcably removed him or shot him. The attitude of "well, he didn't cooperate, so he deserves what he gets" is rather commonplace amoungst cops. Our "cooperation" ends where our legal rights begin. Most cops are assholes, simply because they believe that our rights aren't as important as thier job.
SealBeater
Modded up? (Score:4, Insightful)
Okay we have a name tag Sealbeater, sitting on a spam domain filled with google adwords links, and the sig is, wait for it... Its survival of the fittest...and we got the fucking guns!!! I'd be a bit more cautious about throwing around accusations of assholery if I was you, my son. Glass houses and all that. Thankfully I am not, so although its something of a gaffe to feed the trolls, I am feeling generous today.
The poster in question was referring to that particular case, not to broadly general rules of conduct. Also you refer to "cops" and "civilians" as being something different, which leads me to believe that you have a view of the police as being some sort of military force out to dominate your world with an iron fist. Inferiority complex much? Of course, as you so eloquently put it, survival of the fittest, and you do have the fucking guns, apparently, so the police are just a rival militia to you.
I seriously doubt this will make a dent, Davey Crockett, but for the benefit of the other readers, let me tell you how it is. The police have to deal with serious assholes all the time. They wake up at 2am for their shift at 3am, and straight away they are dealing with halitosis laden drug dealers, drug addicts, wife beaters, child molesters, thieves, career criminals, fraudsters, you name it, they come eyeball to red glazed eyeball with them. People that you would literally cross the entire town, never mind the road, to avoid, people for whom prison is a holiday home, or in more extreme cases a brothel. And here's the kicker; the police have to play by the rules. If they don't, the lawyer will let said scumbag roam free, and the last thing you want is Johnny biker boy cruising the streets looking for your home address with a hard-on.
Of course the nasty types don't feel any such need to play by the rules, so let me ask you. After ten years of waking up at 2am and not going into a nice office to look at the HR lady's shapely backside, but wondering if you will make it home in more or less one piece, what kind of person will you be? I'll tell you, it depends on the person. Some police officers deal with it well, some have outlets for their frustrations, some have family that support and understand them. Some don't or just don't deal with it well in any case. So that's where good cops go bad; avarice, stress, fear, or just plain frustration at seeing the same shitheads walking out after two years and doing the same things to pretty much the same people. Before you start bawling like the survivalist microbe that you are about the bad, naughty cops, you walk a mile in their shoes. Or even better, walk ten years in their shoes.
Yes, there are bad police officers, and they need to be taken out of circulation just like the career criminals. But throwing out the baby with the bathwater is the worst idea anyone could ever have. Be polite to the police, and generally they will respond in kind. This has been my experience in every case.
Re:Modded up? (Score:5, Insightful)
No, thank you very much, I do not need to perform a particular dirty job to know that if the job turns someone into a law-bending dickhead on a power trip, they need to not be employed in that capacity. I don't care why the job fucked them up. It isn't relevant. Oh, you deal with vicious drunken animals every night and it turned you mean? Tough shit, pal, act like a professional or get out of the business. I spent six years intermittently dodging bullets, mines, and IEDs in the Army, so I know what the pressure of life-threatening employment is like. We didn't beat up the random hadjis who showed their soles to us, so I think a cop can do the same for civilians at home. Having a dangerous job doesn't excuse assholery.
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I think what you're missing is that, without a search warrant, the police officer with his foot in the door is trespassing. Period.
Please have your warrant handy before attempting to search my home.
Please have your warrant handy before displacing my wife and children from our home.
It's simple, really.
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It's a shame. You've wasted 18 years of your life and you still don't know how to properly and legally execute a search on someone's private property.
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Hmm. Lets go over the run down of bullshit things cops have done to just me (35 year old male)
Got pulled over once when a cop was behind me and he said after I ask why he pulled me over, "you where driving to carefully." NO KIDDING a cop car behind me and I was driving carefully. Then there was the time my girlfriend and I where driving in a car and I was pulled over and when I ask why he said he want to count the occupants of the car. So I counted for him, 2. Then there was the time I witnessed a cop car run a red light with none of its lights on and smash into a another car. The cops kept insisting that I did not see what I said I saw. Even to the extent that they tried to put words in my mouth through intimidation. That time was so bad I called a family friend of mine who is an FBI agent (lawyer would have charged me) to come to help me.
Then there was this Guy on his porch in the Bronx that got shot for reaching for his wallet. 41 times I believe. (Diallo's case)
There was a case in Devner of raiding the wrong house and killing the dude inside and then LIEING and puting a gun in the dudes hands. HOLLY SHIT.
http://v6.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~4330~1
Now how about the cop in San Bernardino California that shot the air force security officer IN COLD BLOOD. http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,86767
Let me put it simple. You are a cop, (probably don't even know where the term cop comes from I bet, quick Google it) Have you ever heard of the Blackstone ratio? LOOK IT UP.
Here is a great post to a editorial comment on NYC police brutality.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F
Or maybe police cover there own asses.
http://www.aclu.org/police/gen/14542prs20040128.h
I mean Google searching for police abuse returns 70 million hits. Teen sex only returns 72 million. Seems that maybe Police abuse could be nearly as pervasive as teen sex. WTF?
If there is any doubt as to whether to shoot or not shoot. You DON'T SHOOT. I would rather the police offer was shot then he shoots an innocent person. Sorry but that is the job YOU CHOSE. The civilian has more of a right to survive a misunderstanding then you. If you are unsure of the outcome of the situation you withdrawl rather then risk an innocent life.
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Go re-read the 4th amendment. Then explain to me why an armed official should expect to be allowed to enter and remain in my home without a warrant and without my consent. If I invite that official in, that's one thing. If I do not, then that's quite another. And your right to expect cooperation in the pursuit of an investigation does not extend to violating the Constitution. If it did, then there would be no need for things like warrants. You could just demand any cooperation you want, and proceed to punish anyone who refused it.
Standing on my rights is not obstruction of justice. Furthermore if I do so and you disregard my rights, I would hope that the judge would come down on my side.
Yes it becomes a game. And of course the people who insist on those rights are usually people with something to hide whom you (and I) have every reason to dislike. But as a private citizen I absolutely want those rights to be maintained, because eroding them is the path that leads from democracy to fascism.
ObDisclaimer: The only crime I have never personally been charged with is a parking ticket. But I did serve on a jury that ruled a defendant not guilty. I'm sure that the police officers involved wound up cursing us. But when your only eyewitness (the victim) is severely drunk and has poor eyesight, make the guy you found 20 minutes later on a busy street be close to the physical description!
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I agree with you that it's only a small minority that causes the trouble. The cops I know are fine; but I used to live next door to a cocaine club and it was very clear then that the cops in the area were on the take. I'd sometimes complain to them after they were called to break up some fight at 6 in the morning and they'd say, "Hey, the place has a license!" and I'd say, "But it's 6 in the morning! By law they should have closed two hours ago! And they literally have piles of cocaine on the bar, go look!"
And they couldn't even look me in the eyes.
I've been here in New York City 20 years and I have to say that I've grown more and more frightened of the police. My friends are mainly older and two of them have told me flat out that they wouldn't let their kids enter the police force now. After the mass illegal arrests at the RNC where dozens of cops were proven by video to have perjured themselves repeatedly -- yet not one of them was even reprimanded -- I don't know a single politically active person who doesn't see a cop as a potential enemy now.
Oops, I started this with the intention of backing you up -- but it didn't work out.
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No kiddin'. (Score:5, Insightful)
Hard to argue with Gannon.
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yeah, ok. now which way to canada?
PS, in the article the police try and argue what happened at his house, if he warned them about the camera and if he had posted signs about the camera.
now if there's video tape of those events and facts, just review that. no argument. no problem. case closed.
I'd like to see if the cops are on film warning motorists that they are on camera every time they get pulled over. now compare.
Oh, Canada! (Score:5, Insightful)
Please try to resist being smug. As much as I find a lot of what the US gov't does disagreeable it really irritates me when fellow Canadians brag about how much better our lot in life is in comparison with our southern neighbours. I thought we were supposed to be humble folk, but it seems some of us have developed a superiority complex. Historically Canadians have had trouble "blowing their own horn" so we should be sure to note our accomplishments. However, if you must brag, please be realistic. Canada has its share of challenges too:
* A recent behavioural study of major international cities on "politeness" placed Toronto fairly high on the list (Montreal, the other Canadian city did not do as well but did alright). Guess which city beat both? NEW YORK CITY. That's right. Most notably, New Yorkers were significantly more likely to open a door for a stranger in a public place. I guess that means "doors are opened" in NYC
* There are places in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Toronto and Montreal where I most certainly would NOT leave my doors unlocked. OTOH, I don't think people ever use their locks in most of Montana, North and South Dakota, Maine, etc. I know this isn't apples-to-apples comparison but most Canadians live in a major city as is the case in the US (I grew up in rural Canada and yes doors are still open there too). The point is that Canada isn't THAT much different in this regard
* I've witnessed RCMP officers and city police be somewhat less than polite in dealing with people too. Some of it has been widely publicised (Anyone remember the pepper-sprayed protester in Vancouver? And Prime Minister Cretien's cavalier response with the joke that he prefers his pepper on his dinner plate?). When the Hells Angels held a patch-over ceremony in Alberta a number of years ago, anyone who rode a Harley and was dressed the wrong way was badly harassed by the cops.
* Years ago when a Quebec separatist group kidnapped and later killed a politician our "beloved" Prime Minister invoked the "War Measures Act", which allowed for police to detain anyone without charges and suspended many other civil liberties. This was in effect nation-wide, even though the FLQ Crisis only presented a direct threat to savety in Quebec. RCMP in places far away from Quebec took advantage of the situation and we had "troublemakers" in small town Alberta held in custody for days without charges.
* Speaking of Quebec, this is a province that has "language police" that will fine you in your shop doesn't have French on it, or if some non-French language on your signage is too prominent.
* West of Ontario, it is illegal for farmers to sell most crops to anyone but the Canadian Wheat Board. Farmers who protested this by pubically deciding to sell their grain directly to someone else rather than through the wheat board had their doors kicked in and were dragged to jail--and had their trucks and grain seized. Sone farmer in Ontario does the EXACT SAME THING? Sure, that's OK--the act applies only to BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba. I could live with a government imposed monopoly, distasteful as it is, if it applied equally to all Canadians. As it is now this situation is a travesty.
* Well, I still live in Canada and I know that a lot of private parking spots are equipped with cameras here. In the past year or two there has been a dramatic increase in vandalism (mostly grafitti and car prowlings) and as a result more outdoor surveillance cameras are going up, and developers are putting out a lot more security guards in under-construction subdivisions as theft and vandalism increased there too.
OTOH Canada has a lot to be proud of too:
* Big, expensive and ineffective gun registry notwithstanding, there is WAY less gun violence in Canada than in the US
* Canadians ar
Ask the President (Score:5, Funny)
Doesn't he know that the President is the only personl legally allowed to wire tap?
Re:Ask the President (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't you mean, illegally?
get this straight, okay? (Score:5, Funny)
This authority is vital to national security, possibly to our very survival, and the only thing that could possibly void that power would be the election of a candidate from the Democratic party. If that unlikely event were to come to pass, then yes, the President would be capable of committing an illegal act by authorizing actions in violation of written law. In, and only in, a Democrat-run White House is the President capable of authorizing or committing an illegal act.
Re:get this straight, okay? (Score:5, Funny)
Did you hear that? That was the sound of a joke going right over your head.
I never said Bush was the antichrist, so spare me (Score:5, Insightful)
President Clinton did lie about a blowjob, and I don't care. At all. It's completely insignificant in the balance of world affairs. The current President lies about torture. It wasn't under oath, so isn't impeachable, and that distinction is about as morally insignificant as you can get. It's wrong to torture people and then redefine the term in mid-sentence and then pretend you're being forthright about what you're doing. The way those people are being treated would be called torture if it was happening in our country to our citizens, and we know it. It was called torture before we were doing it, wasn't it? If it was your mother or best friend being interrogated in Dallas with these methods, you'd call it torture.
Where is the moral contumely that we were basting eyeballs-deep in during the Clinton impeachment? Where is the outrage? There isn't any, and you know exactly why--Bush is a Republican, therefore whatever he does is lily-white in the eyes of Republicans. Morality, legality, propriety, everything is subordinate to politics. They'll impeach a sitting President over a blowjob but sit placidly by while a President authorizes torture, secret prisons, indefinite detentions, warrantless wiretaps, etc. So spare me your moral equivocations. I don't care if Clinton got blown on film every Sunday at noon while holding the King James Bible in one hand and a joint in the other--if torture doesn't make your moral compass wake up and take notice, there is something fundamentally wrong with you as a human being.
Perhaps I'm barking up the wrong tree on this, and you are deeply disturbed by what the Administration is doing. If so, you have my apologies. I'm just so sick of the faux moralizing about Clinton, coupled with the complete blindness on issues that really do matter. Blowjobs, even adulterous ones later lovingly covered with perjury, are a miniscule speck, an electron-sized mote, of immorality, compared to torture of human beings. To bring up Clinton and his interns in this context is to color yourself either as a shameless political hack or a pretty despicable human being.
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Re:Ugh! (Score:5, Interesting)
A lot of us over at the forums on NHFree [nhfree.com] are weighing options as to how best to respond.\
We're known for standing up against the NH police when they step out of line!5 4843817240 [google.com]
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-30178811
This is absurd on so many levels (Score:5, Insightful)
By the way, isn't New Hampshire supposed to be the state all the Libertarians are moving to, and wasn't it chosen because it was the most Free to begin with? Jeez, if this kind of thing can happen there the rest of us are really screwed!
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:5, Funny)
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:3)
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:4, Funny)
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:3, Informative)
You're thinking of the FreeState Project [freestateproject.org]. It was initially supposed to be Vermont, but New Hampshire Won out in the end [freestateproject.org].
--Triv
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:5, Informative)
Not only was this guy arrested, but the police tresspassed on his property and kicked his wife out for 5 hours while they tried to get a search warrant -- even though they were effectively already illegally searching the place!
Number one rule - never let the police in your house unless they have a search warrant. Never. No matter what. Step out on your porch to talk to them. Or on the driveway. Or sidewalk. And really, don't talk to them without a lawyer present unless YOU called them to report a crime.
This sounds paranoid, but the police are no longer the friends of the honest citizen - they view EVERYONE as a criminal these days.
flex your rights (Score:3, Informative)
In that vein, here's something [flexyourrights.org] a friend pointed me to just today.
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:5, Insightful)
What do you think the point is of passing huge numbers of unenforceable laws? The point is that the police can pick anyone to be a criminal by selective enforcement.
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't say anything to the police period. Anything you need to say to them can be said in court. Granted if you have a lawyer, and are wanting to strike a bargain it may be in your interest to talk, but always do so with a lawyer present.
Just to repeat the police are not your friends.
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:5, Informative)
Keep in mind:
Check out the grief we gave to the cops on a past case where they misbehaved here [google.com], or see our fight against the National ID here [google.com]
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:5, Informative)
I signed up for the Free State Project too. You're leaving a few things out.
New Hampshire is a beautiful state, and parts of the state are within commuting distance of Boston, allowing a few decent opportunities. It's a lot better than Montana or Wyoming, two other states that were highly popular in the voting. I was optimistic about the FSP, but if we don't reach 20,000, we are never going to get anything done. And we aren't gonna reach 20,000 anytime soon.
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:4, Interesting)
It's easy to nay-say on the sidelines. It's just so much bullshitting unless you're willing to at least give it a shot.
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:4, Informative)
That's why in NH we don't have laws that require you to wear your seat belt, wear a motorcycle helmet, or wear your mittens. You want to be treated as an infant ward of the State? Go live somewhere else. You want to be treated like an adult, and take responsibility for your own choices? Come to New Hampshire. Simple.
oversight (Score:4, Insightful)
Quite true. I have long suspected that the single most effective defense against most abuses of power is a camera (at least in civilized places where public opinion matters). Without video footage, no one will believe the abuses really happened.
Ubiquitous surveilance is often seen as a tool of big brother, but it can also be a tool against oppression as well. Imagine a society in which many people wear a webcam attached to an ipod-like device with a ring buffer storing everything the wearer sees. Then imagine you are a corrupt police officer who likes to intimidate and/or abuse certain people. Would it give you pause if you knew your actions were quite likely to show up on the news the next day?
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:3, Insightful)
What this is is a perfect example of the opposite. The judge needs to award costs, and a little extra for the trouble and tell the cops to stop acting like idiots. End of case. No lasting dmage has been done to anyone, as long as the law gets laid down in a blunt manner nothing else is needed.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:5, Insightful)
Funding for the police comes from the taxpayers. Any fine paid by the police force is ultimately paid by the taxpayers.
The police are ostensibly there to protect the public. Financial hardship would leave them less able to perform that task. Longer response times to emergency calls, crimes going uninvestigated, because the police force cannot afford enough employees to do their job properly.
Perhaps more appropriate would be a civil suit filed personally against those responsible for the events, rather than the police force as a whole. The family can still be compensated through this, and it will (hopefully) act as a deterrent against others in positions of power that might consider abusing said power.
Somebody seriously f'd up. (Score:4, Insightful)
Not All Powerful (Score:5, Funny)
That sad part is (Score:5, Insightful)
Problem is, most people don't see these stories for what they truly generally are. Stupidity. You know, there are stupid cops and even stupid judges. Most of the time, when cases like this make it out into the world people think that the system is to blame. Normally thats not the case, the stupidity of the officers involved are to blame. Well, either that or some queer powertrip, which is far too common with law enforcement aswell.
In the end, this will all get thrown out in court. Thing is, nobody knows at what cost it will be to the guy involved. Thats truly the greatest flaw of all in the system. IMHO, there should almost be a pre-court judge that can take a look at cases in advance as a checksum against stupidity, and throw them out right away if they are as dumb as this one. I suppose that would be rife for abusing too though.
you CAN have a judge throw out a case.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Unlawful to record your home? (Score:5, Informative)
"The laws of 13 states expressly prohibit the unauthorized installation or use of cameras in private places. In Alabama, Arkansas, California, Delaware, Georgia, Hawaii, Kansas, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, New Hampshire , South Dakota, and Utah, installation or use of any device for photographing, observing or overhearing events or sounds in a private place without permission of the people photographed or observed is against the law. A private place is one where a person may reasonably expect to be safe from unauthorized surveillance. Alabama, Delaware, Georgia, Hawaii, Kansas, Maine, Michagin, Minnesota, South Dakota, and Utah also prohibit trespassing on private property to conduct surveillance of people there. In most of these states, unauthorized installation or use of hidden cameras is a felony, punishable by a 2000.00 fine and up to 2 years in prison."
Odd. bolding and italics are mine.Re:Unlawful to record your home? (Score:5, Insightful)
I beleive the statute you are quoting more concerns you placing a camera in the ladies room of your restauruant and then defending it as it was on your property. Front stoop is private property, but not a private space.
Re:Unlawful to record your home? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Unlawful to record your home? (Score:5, Insightful)
If the camera was on the man's property, then you couldn't hardly say that the installation was unauthorized.
New Hampshire Wiretap laws (Score:3, Informative)
Slow news day (Score:5, Informative)
As for the why, this article seems a little short on details. But one thing I've heard several times (though it's totally hearsay and it probably varies from state to state anyway) is that it is illegal to record both video and audio without prior consent. Most of the surveillance cameras you see in stores and the like only record video.
Similarly, it's illegal to record a telephone conversation without telling all parties on the line that it's being recorded. I think that's federal law.
In other words, yeah the cops probably had a right to arrest the guy. Did the cops it done as a form of harrassment? Yeah, probably. Well knock me over with a feather. Cops, harrassing people? Never!
Re:Slow news day (Score:3, Interesting)
Civil Liberties (Score:3, Insightful)
Obviously this means that his civil liberties can be trampled on.
Muppets (Score:4, Funny)
I can imagine the Muppets' skit now, "Piiiiggggggs onnnnn Taaaaaappppe".
Albuquerque doing this too (Score:3, Insightful)
On the other hand, not all cops are bad. Once in college I got a flat tire while driving an unregistered uninsured hippy painted VW bus carrying a bag of weed. A nice officer stopped (in the rain no less) and helped me change the tire without even checking my license or registration, let alone whether a hippy painted VW bus might have contraband onboard.
On the third hand (yes, it's a Larry Niven reference) I've seen cops beat my friends for trying to feed homeless people on the street in San Francisco. Then they poured our soup down the drain and poured bleach over our bagels right in front of about 100 homeless folks.
So YMMV where police are concerned, some are cool, some are total dicks.
Problem (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Problem (Score:5, Informative)
http://cbs4.com/topstories/local_story_033170755.
Out of 38 police departments, he was able to obtain complaint forms from THREE departments. On officer ran him out the office and actually threatened him by putting his hand to his gun.
Nowadays, I wouldn't call the police to ever settle a dispute.
Nashua Police Contact Information (Score:5, Informative)
Conley, Donald, Deputy Chief Executive Officer
603-594-3500
Hefferan, Timothy, Chief of Police
603-594-3600
duh! (Score:5, Informative)
Jury duty (Score:5, Interesting)
Now at last we can turn the arguement around: If you're not doing anything wrong, why worry about the cameras? Police routinely tape large demonstrations and outdoor events, how is this any different? There's no expectation of privacy in public place, that's why they had to use wiretap laws. It wasn't the video, it was the audio. I'm guessing N.H. is a two-party state, where both parties have to consent to monitoring.
Either way this was a hugely bad move for the police department. Now it looks like they charged the guy in retaliation and are trying to cover up misdeeds by their own personnel. The defense will want to play the tape for the jury and they'll get to see the officer's unfiltered conduct. Not his well-dressed, well-mannered courtroom testimony. He might not have had a damage award case if they hadn't arrested him, but they might now if the jury is convinced the police acted out of malice. Dumb and dumber.
Smartest move the prosecutor could make would be to throw out the case, but none of those involved strike me as particularly gifted in the PR department.
So much for the Supreme Court counting on improved training to keep police conduct in check.
NH Statute 644:9 (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Solution: A $5 Sign? (Score:5, Informative)
D'oh. (Score:3, Insightful)
I guess I assumed there wouldn't have been any issue with a sign.
Re:Solution: A $5 Sign? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Solution: A $5 Sign? (Score:4, Interesting)
Looks like he had already done that. This kind of stuff is ridiculous, I can't believe Americans are putting up with this kind of shit from the people we pay to protect our cities. More and more rights being taken away. My only question is how having security cameras on your own private property is against wiretapping laws? I bet this family is going to make a killing after they get done with that PD.
Re:Solution: A $5 Sign? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Solution: A $5 Sign? (Score:5, Funny)
...or, as my mother used to say while she was beating me, "Two wrongs don't make a right!"
Re:Solution: A $5 Sign? (Score:5, Insightful)
Terrorist this, NSA spying that, the United States is the scariest place on Earth.
Re:Solution: A $5 Sign? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Solution: A $5 Sign? (Score:5, Informative)
No, no it wouldn't.
That's because, while it's legal to videotape people on your property where a sign is posted, or in any public place where they have no expectation of privacy (like out in front of your house) it's illegal to audiotape them without their express consent.
Re:Solution: A $5 Sign? (Score:5, Interesting)
Another example is you cant get a Federal CWP if you have ever been charged with a felony. Doesn't matter what it was, or if you were aquited.
Re:Solution: A $5 Sign? (Score:5, Interesting)
Now had they disclosed the fact that the guy worked in the prosecutors office I could have had it sent to another county where more than most likely the charges would have been dismissed. They hid this fact until I entered my plea agreement, and he was not listed as working for the prosecutors office till after it was all over. They will do anything they can to further their carrers and they dont care if it tank yours. Note if I was convicted of a felony, no professional engineering licence, no security clearance, nothing pertaining to engineering, and 2 years upstate minimum. Everything I would have worked for would have been wasted. Most likely I would have won, however even if you're innocent, there's still a chance of being found guilty. As I'm 22, with where this happend, I'd have a high chance of having a bunch of old ladies on my jury, please note the jury of your peers thing is BS, its usually homemakers and the elderly. If they think all the kids are just little SOBs that drive too fast, it doesn't matter that I was doing the speed limit and that the truck sped up or any other factors. Charges alone cause serious grief, and the worst thing about it is they can do completely bogus charges.
Re:Will the ACLU take this case? (Score:5, Insightful)
Huh? Free press? A guy video tapes somebody on his doorstep and suddenly that qualifies him as a member of the press?
Regardless of whether he's press or not, I think you need to read the Bill of Rights again because you obviously don't know what it says. You don't have to be a literalist to understand that this doesn't mean what you think it means:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
I don't see how this case has anything whatsoever to do with congress abridging freedom of the press. This is about a guy who got arrested for superfluous reasons. It's obviously one of those situations where the cops got annoyed, so they looked for whatever law they could find that they might be able to charge him against. It should be looked at in that light; trying to turn it into some weird and inappropriate first amendment discussion is not going to help anyone.
Re:whoa whoa whoa there (Score:5, Insightful)
How can it be wiretapping if there's no wire being tapped?
How can the patriot act be called what it is? Why is it that if I wear a pistol in a holster on my belt, in plain view, covered with blinking LEDs, while wearing a t-shirt that reads "I carry a firearm" I'll be arrested for "carrying a concealed weapon." The names of laws often have nothing to do with what the laws say.
Why is it a crime to monitor what our public servants are doing?
Because the police are criminals and they follow the orders of the corrupt politicians who pass these laws. I know quite a few cops, but I've never known one who did not flaunt the law and brag about how they don't have to follow it since they are cops. I've never known one who does not have a "funny" story about how they abused their power for their own personal ends. If you haven't noticed this by now, you haven't been paying attention.
Re:Private property? (Score:5, Insightful)
Since we all forgot that we are sovereign individuals, and not subjects of any
nation-state or government; since we all began to accept that the government
has some intrinsic authority which overrules our own sovereignty; since we
all began to believe that we answer to the government, instead of them
answering to us; since we all forgot that we are EXACTLY as free as we
CHOOSE to be; since we all forgot that we have as much freedom as we
choose to have and are willing to defend.