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Does Open Source Encourage Rootkits?

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on Mon Apr 17, 2006 06:33 PM
from the no-ulterior-motives dept.
Security Software
An anonymous reader writes "NetworkWorld reports that security vendor McAfee places the blame for increased numbers of rootkits squarely on the shoulders of the open source community. Others, however, do not agree. From the article: 'Rootkit.com's 41,533 members do post rootkit source code anonymously, then discuss and share the open source code. But it's naïve to say the Web site exists for malicious purposes, contends Greg Hoglund, CEO of security firm HBGary and operator of Rootkit. "It's there to educate people," says Hoglund [...] It's a great resource for anti-virus companies and others. Without it, they'd be far behind in their understanding of rootkits."'"
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[+] Ask Slashdot: A Closed Off System? 177 comments
AnarkiNet wonders: "In an age of malware which installs itself via browsers, rootkits installing themselves from audio cds, and loads of other shady things happening on your computer, would a 'Closed OS' be successful? The idea is an operating system (open or closed source), which allows no third party software to be installed, ever. Yes, not even your own coded programs would run unless they existed in the OS-maker-managed database of programs that could be installed. Some people might be aghast at this idea but I feel that it could be highly useful for example in the corporate setting where there would be no need for a secretary to have anything on his/her computer other than the programs available from the OS-maker. For now, let's not worry if people can 'get around' the system. If each program that made up the collection of allowed programs was 'up to scratch' and had 'everything you need', would you really have an issue with being unable to install a different program that did the same thing?"
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  • Scare Tactics and Get Real (Score:5, Insightful)

    by WebHostingGuy (825421) * on Monday April 17 2006, @06:35PM (#15145630) Homepage Journal
    If this site/domain name was not well know the hackers would just type in an IP like Click for Rootkit [70.85.5.142] and get what they need.

    Simply because they use a domain name and the site is known does not make the information malicious. If you don't think rotating sites on rotating server exist to share compromised media and discussion about server cracking then you don't know anything. Rookit.com is open and out there, but the malicious people don't just stop here. Removing rootkit.com off the face of the earth would do zero to stop server compromises and rootkits.

    And don't get me started about the quote..." make it advisable "to throw the computer away" if you want to be sure you got rid of the rootkit". Talk about scare tactics...sheesh. How often do you see a BIOS rootkit? And if you did, why don't you just reflash the BIOS? Or is this a sinister plan to make companies throw out old hardware to buy new so they buy new faster stuff to run Vista. That's it! It's all Microsoft's fault. Amazing how fast we can go do the jump off the bridge path.

    • Or is this a sinister plan to make companies throw out old hardware to buy new so they buy new faster stuff to run Vista. That's it! It's all Microsoft's fault. Amazing how fast we can go do the jump off the bridge path.

      Maybe ... but that doesn't make you wrong. The beauty of FUD is that, while it is ignored by knowledgeable people, a little of it can go a long way in convincing a PHB to change his budget priorities. It really doesn't take much: the old "nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be

      • Re:Scare Tactics and Get Real (Score:5, Interesting)

        by IntelliAdmin (941633) * on Monday April 17 2006, @08:27PM (#15146137) Homepage
        Lets also remember that some of the people associated with this site were the first to notice the Sony DRM RootKit. The research that has been done on this site has really made it hard for rootkit developers to install their wares unnoticed - if you have the right tools. I could be wrong, but I think that Mark Russinovich from sysinternals has been there contributing to this site. It has led to the development of some really great tools such as the SysInternals RootkitRevealer - a really great tool by the way (http://www.sysinternals.com/Utilities/RootkitReve aler.html [sysinternals.com])
        • Let me say, speaking as a developer, the rootkit.com site is a give and take system for both rootkit and anti-rootkit developers alike. As new anti-rootkit software is released, the community evaluates it, figures out the weaknesses and publishes the results. This allows rootkit developers to gain new insights into the inner workings of anti-rootkit software and Windows itself. In turn anti-rootkit developers learn from their mistakes and can come up with new ways to overcome their weaknesses. Without each

    • Re:Scare Tactics and Get Real (Score:5, Funny)

      by Lumpy (12016) on Monday April 17 2006, @06:52PM (#15145748) Homepage
      Man what a great IDEA! I am certified for hazardous rootkit infected computer disposal.. this month only my normal $250.00 disposal fee is reduced to
      $100.00 per Pentium 4 computer or laptop infected with a dangerous rootkit. Our trained professionals will seal each infected PC in a hypo allergenic bag and savely transport them to our facilitity for disposal and recycling.

      I get paid AND get gobs of good gear to sell on ebay!

      Thanks for the tip! this will go great with my DVD rewinding service!

  • Baloney (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Spazmania (174582) on Monday April 17 2006, @06:40PM (#15145659) Homepage
    McAfee places the blame for increased numbers of rootkits squarely on the shoulders of the open source community

    That's like saying Edison and Tesla are to blame every time someone gets electocuted.

    • Re:Baloney (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Ucklak (755284) on Monday April 17 2006, @06:47PM (#15145715)
      This is another 'blame the tool, not the user' type of mentality.

      Guns are evil, drugs are bad, rootkits are bad, P2P is evil, etc...
      We've heard this all before.

      Concrete is bad because it could be used to make a shoe and keep a victim from struggling whilst they are dropped at the bottom of a lake.
      Knives are bad because they may be used to kill someone.
      2x4 pieces of lumber are bad because you could use it to knock someone off a motorcycle.
      Baseball bats are really evil becuase gangs can use them for intimidation.
      Crowbars, they should be illegal anyway, who uses them? We need to have nails that dissolve with water instead of trying to pry them up with this lethal weapon.
      • Tools/users aren't even remotely analagous to products/development models. But then neither are inventors/inventions, so at least you're standards-compliant for this thread.

      • This is another 'blame the tool, not the user' type of mentality.

        Guns are evil, drugs are bad, rootkits are bad, P2P is evil, etc...
        We've heard this all before.

        Concrete is bad because it could be used to make a shoe and keep a victim from struggling whilst they are dropped at the bottom of a lake.
        Knives are bad because they may be used to kill someone.
        2x4 pieces of lumber are bad because you could use it to knock someone off a motorcycle.
        Baseball bats are really evil becuase gangs can use them for intimida

        • Take a more mundane example -- lockpicks. Laws criminalizing the posession of lockpicks by anyone other than a licensed locksmith are obviously wrong because they "blame the tool and not the user." Hell, I might lose my house keys, and need to pick my own lock! And even if it were shown that 99.99% of the use of lockpicks by unlicensed persons was for the purpose of burglary and auto theft -- well, tough, blame the user, not the tool. We have to preserve the unlicensed and unregulated use of that tool for t

        • Re:Baloney (Score:5, Interesting)

          by 0123456 (636235) on Monday April 17 2006, @07:36PM (#15145945)
          "I'm as close to a 2nd Amendment purist as one is likely to find"

          No you're not.

          "But even for me, there are limits. Should people be allowed to own fully automatic weapons? RPGs? Artillary? Landmines?"

          Do you really think that the founders would have been worried about individuals owning RPGs when they were quite happy for individuals to own warships?

          Hint: read Article 1 section 8 sometime, and look up 'letters of marque and reprisal', if you don't know what that means.

          • The problem is... (Score:4, Insightful)

            by Belial6 (794905) on Monday April 17 2006, @09:33PM (#15146407) Homepage
            The problem is that people don't understand that the founding fathers intended individuals to have the weapons necessary to fight a full fledged war with a world power. That was the point of the 2nd amendment. Suggesting that people have the right to bear arms for the purpose of hunting, sport, or to defend your home against burglers would have made as much sense to them as making a law today that guarantees the right to drink water, breath air, and eat a hamburger.
            • The founding fathers did not intend for the 2nd Amendment to allow individuals the ability to bear arms to defend themselves against a world power - they designed the 2nd Amendment to guarantee the citizen's right to revolt against their government. Look up some George Washington quotes and get your facts straight, please.
          • But the Founding fathers never envisioned landmines or dirty bombs.

            It's interesting how the same people who support Bush sending Americans to Guantanamo for allegedly planning on building a weapon, but insist on the unconditional right to bear arms.

      • Re:Baloney (Score:3, Interesting)

        by shmlco (594907)
        "This is another 'blame the tool, not the user' type of mentality."

        Yeah, because rootkits have so many other benign and benevolent purposes...
    • That's like saying Edison and Tesla are to blame every time someone gets electocuted.
      Actually, that's exactly what Edison would say. Though he wouldn't appreciate you lumping him in with the likes of Tesla.

      Of course, all this electrocution business just goes to show how much safer Edison's DC power would be, now doesn't it?

      Hmm. Makes me wonder what kind of power source this vendor (or its backer) is hyping....

      • Re:Baloney (Score:3, Informative)

        by Rich0 (548339)
        Mod parent up.

        Ironically back when electrical grids were starting to take off there was a big fight over AC vs DC, with one marketing approach being to associate the opposing side with the electric chair. I think that somebody wanted to coin the phrase "getting westinghoused" for being electrocuted.

        Can't say I remember the details though...
      • In some famous demonstrations Edison's company electricuted some farm animals with high voltage AC.
      • He actually roasted an elephant [roadsideamerica.com] to show how dangerous his competitor's AC current really was.

    • Re:Baloney (Score:3, Insightful)

      by HiThere (15173) *
      Consider the source.

      McAfee certainly doesn't want to take the blame when the computers that it is paid money to protect are infected...so it looks for a soft target. (And now you know what I think of McAfee. I didn't even bother to check that this was the same one...so believe at your own risk.)
    • Argh! Don't give those intelligent design nutcases any ideas!
    • Nobody is saying that the open source community is to blame for the individual attempts. What it is saying is that the open source availability of information/code is to blame for the increase in the number of rootkits. It's a bit like saying that if Edison & Tesla had not made electricity widely available, then less people would be electrocuted therefore we could blame them for the increase in numbers of electrocution. That does not make them culpable for each electrocution.

    • Re:Baloney (Score:4, Insightful)

      by hackus (159037) on Monday April 17 2006, @08:31PM (#15146153) Homepage
      I place the increase of rootkits in numbers in a spectacular way to Sony and the DRM folks.

      They mass produce rootkits by the MILLIONS.

      Idiots.

      -Hackus

  • Phhhbt... (Score:5, Funny)

    by UbelievablyLame (962303) on Monday April 17 2006, @06:41PM (#15145666)
    "Rootkits... you say it like it's a bad thing" -Sony

  • Marketing disguised as "Research" (Score:3, Interesting)

    by kaufmanmoore (930593) on Monday April 17 2006, @06:45PM (#15145697)
    This report looks like a marketing ploy by McAfee to counteract Microsoft's OneCare Live product and Microsoft's reported move into stand-alone antispyware. As noted in a Cnet article on the same report, the report states that the term rootkit should be used in relation to malicious software only and not apply towards technology like Sony's DRM rootkit.

  • Business protection? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by microbee (682094) on Monday April 17 2006, @06:48PM (#15145721)
    What is McAfree afraid of? Being bashed on rootkits.com just like Lavasoft? I think it's very important for the general public to know the information about virus and anti-virus technologies. Big companies try so hard to protect their secrets so that nobody else could get into the market. We often have no idea what kind of pieces of crap are running on our computers which we rely so much upon. Well, let the worms come out of the can!

  • Semantics (Score:5, Informative)

    by caffeination (947825) on Monday April 17 2006, @06:51PM (#15145742)
    The linked article and the Slashdot summary twist McAffee's report to invoke images of someone blaming the likes of KDE for the existence of rootkits, which is misleading. They are in fact blaming increasing effectiveness on the fact that people are collaborating. If anything it's a glowing advert for the Open Source development model.

    Also, the majority of the article is not about this issue, despite it being both the title and the Slashdot title. Instead, it's about current trends in rootkit design.

  • Does Open Source Encourage Rootkits? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by vertinox (846076) on Monday April 17 2006, @06:51PM (#15145744)
    As much as Closed Source prevents them.

  • Hello, McAfee? We're trying to help you! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Rex Code (712912) <rexcode@gmail.com> on Monday April 17 2006, @06:56PM (#15145772)
    OK, I'll admit that there are a lot of rootkits being passed around in the open. More than in the past, and most of them include the source code. The only reason this should be a problem for McAfee is if they aren't able to keep up with the volume. Would they rather that these things circulated underground so that 10x more sites would fall victim before McAfee managed to capture an example to analyze?


    Full disclosure is the best way to force the holes that make the rootkits possible to be addressed sooner rather than later. McAfee should be grateful that these things are getting posted where they can use them to make their offerings more secure. Instead, they come off as a bunch of whiners.

  • Access to info == Potential to do bad things (Score:5, Insightful)

    by licamell (778753) on Monday April 17 2006, @06:57PM (#15145782)
    I mean, how is this any different than say all the resources on how to make bombs on the internet (oh no, I just got my traffic flagged since I think it passes through AT&T networks). Anyways, just because the info on how to make weapons is online does not directly lead to people using that info for bad things. The people who truly want to do bad things will get their info from elsewhere. This is just a bad marketing attempt to screw people out of freedom of information/speech.
  • Remember its for the kids... or terrorists.. or someting ... its gotta go ..

  • Security vendor FUD (Score:5, Insightful)

    by hotdiggitydawg (881316) on Monday April 17 2006, @07:02PM (#15145805)
    Wow. A security vendor, who has a critical financial interest in creating FUD, claims that disclosing security flaws creates security problems. Forgive me if my eyeballs don't explode with surprise.

    Security by obscurity has been proven time and again not to work. Nobody would find a security hole if it didn't exist. Likewise, if one does exist, if one person can find it so can someone else. The responsibility lies squarely with the developers.

    Time for a bad analogy (seeing as how this is Slashdot and all): If the door of your house/apartment/room/basement was made of balsa wood rather than a decent hardwood (or a reinforced steel-belted Faraday Cage for you tinfoil-hatters), it would only be a matter of time before someone worked this out. And regardless of whether they boot your front door in and make off with your home entertainment system, or simply leave you a note that says "This door is so thin I can hear you whacking off to Buffy reruns from across the hall (by the way your dinner's getting cold, son)" you can bet if one person can work it out, so can someone else. And the next person might not just leave you a note. So, if the door is your responsibility you better fix it ASAP, or risk the consequences. And if not, you better fry the ass of whoever is responsible, or you'll still risk the consequences yourself.

    Landlord won't give you a secure premises? Move out, and tell everyone about it. Or get a gun and a pit bull. Or barricade the door and use the kitchen window for access. Or all three. Windows has more holes than half a dozen slices of Jarlesberg? Switch to a more secure O/S, and add your voice to the complaints. Or install malware detection/removal tools. Or lock it down behind a firewall. Or all three. But don't just stick your head in the sand and hope nobody will notice, that approach just doesn't work.
  • I would be more worried about their future than trying to blame OSS for their business. My guess is that McAfee and the other Window virus/malware/keystroke logging companies will be out of business in about 3 years or certainly in major decline.
  • Wasn't McAfee suspected of releasing computer viruses into the wild to beef up the sales of their wares?

  • Mod McAfee (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Firehed (942385) on Monday April 17 2006, @07:06PM (#15145822) Homepage
    Mod McAfee down -1, Troll.

  • Depends who you ask (Score:5, Funny)

    by suv4x4 (956391) on Monday April 17 2006, @07:18PM (#15145864)
    "Does Open Source Encourage Rootkits?"

    MS: Oh let me asnwer, me me me me!

  • And the answer is..... (Score:4, Funny)

    by 3seas (184403) on Monday April 17 2006, @07:22PM (#15145885) Homepage Journal
    ask Sony.

  • Headline doesn't match article... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by fortinbras47 (457756) on Monday April 17 2006, @07:59PM (#15146030)
    The main point of the article isn't about open source, but about websites that bring people together to work on technology that can be used for nefarious purposes.

    From the article: "The predominant reason for the growth in use of stealthy code is because of sites like Rootkit.com," says Stuart McClure, senior vice president of global threats at McAfee.

    Again, to me, this isn't an "open source" problem as much as an "Internet/can we stop bad guys from getting together and working on bad things" problem.

    I somehow doubt rootkit.com is that dangerous (or I have no idea if it's even malicious), but I think we're likely to see this general issue come up again with websites on bomb making techniques, biological weapons etc... What should the government/society do if there is a public website that researches technology that can be used to make mass casualty weapons?

  • Instead of users being limited in their choices of rootkits, users now have many different rootkits that are community supported to choose from. *THIS* is exactly why opensource is so important.

    Who wants to be stuck with a closed source rootkit when your IRC channel and server change and you have no way to update it? Opensource empowers the user to take the best features of different rootkits to ensure that they get the rootkit that meets their needs.

    Users can strip down rootkits to run on older hardware that would otherwise be discarded, or they can enable many new features that make these rootkits competitive with all of the current commercial rootkits currently being used. ... Seriously, though, all of this just means that security patches continue to become more critical and that deployment of patches on servers cannot wait for months or years like we used to do back in the good old days.

    With the proliferation and expansion of UNIX desktop software that tries to emulate more and more windows (mis)-features, I think the rootkits and opensource actually do a lot to ensure that the basic applicatio n and OS security model in Linux and GNOME and KDE desktop environments remain secure.

  • open source == freedom (Score:5, Insightful)

    by IchBinEinPenguin (589252) on Monday April 17 2006, @08:21PM (#15146115)
    freedom encourages all sorts of things, some of them bad.

    Live with it, it's better than the alternative.

  • Two words: Poor Journalism ... (Score:3, Informative)

    by Zero__Kelvin (151819) on Monday April 17 2006, @09:02PM (#15146276) Homepage
    Anyone who has read David Hume's "A Treatise on Human Nature" [amazon.com] knows that human nature is the cause of rootkits. If one is looking for a root cause that fosters human nature's ability to distort in this particular fashion they need look no further than poor journalism!

    If the journalist or her editor possessed the proper level of subject knowledge and/or integrity required for true journalism to occur, then this patently absurd question would never be asked in an article.

    Problems with the article abound, but this lone article is far from the problem. Never the less, it is a quintessential example of the kind of absurd misunderstanding of the landscape of the subject matter combined with the complete disregard for the principle of the pursuit of truth as a core element of journalistic principle that is endemic to the disease of misinformation which fosters misinformation in society today.

    A few points that should be obvious, but are missed completely by this article:
    1) The term rootkit stems from the fact that the concept comes from a UNIX environment
    2) Most "rootkits" today target M$ proprietary products
    3) Rootkits have always been "Open Source", unless you count ...
    4) The biggest rootkit vendor is Sony, who works closely with M$

    I could go on, but it is the misinformation propogated by piss poor journalism coupled with the lackluster education levels of the vast majority of the members of society in the free world that is the cause of most problems in the world today.
  • The reason the AntiVirus vendors keep producing this kind of inflamatory FUD is because it works.

    Every time an AntiVirus company issues a fear mongering white paper, press release, or paid article placement in a magazine they get explosive coverage, dozens or hundreds of free articles written about them or their topic of interest, nearly all with links back to their original article. Within limits, bad publicity is publicity and publicity is good.

    Meanwhile, companies like mine that are building next-generation network security systems (shameless link to Intrinsic Security AntiWorm [intrinsicsecurity.com]) and who try to be good network citizens must work a thousand times harder for links back to our web sites, don't get slashdot stories about us, don't get bazillions of blog entries linking back to us.

    Mine is not the only company that suffers this problem. Every time a story by one of these highly bogus AntiVirus FUD spreading companies ticks you off, you should include at the end of your rant about it in your blog a few links to non-bogus internet security companies. We would greatly appreciate it.

    Honestly, there are days when I feel like whipping up a FUD press release or scare mongering white paper. It would be easier than taking the publicity high road.
    • Unfortunately we dont have the absolute right to free speech in this country to 'do what you like'. If you go out and tell somone how to commit a crime, with the sole intent of teaching them to commit it, then you get tossed in jail too..

      If you teach them as a tool to avoid being ripped off however, you get away with it.

      its all a grey area, and can get you put away if you are on the wrong side of the judge ( or the guy in the black van )

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