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Danish, Western Websites Under Attack
Posted by
Zonk
on Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:42 AM
from the daily-show-is-real-news-now dept.
from the daily-show-is-real-news-now dept.
caese writes "The BBC is reporting that almost 900 Danish websites have been defaced by crackers angry about the recent controversy over cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad. From the article: 'What is extraordinary for this Danish case is the speed in which the community united'. Another 1600 or so Western websites have been defaced by the same group. The defacements have ranged from condemnation of the cartoons to outright calls for violence."
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Politics: Pakistan Blocks YouTube 648 comments
Multiple readers have written to tell us of news that Pakistan has ordered its ISPs to block access to YouTube "for containing blasphemous web content/movies." This follows increasing unrest in Pakistan over a Danish newspaper's reprinting of cartoons which depict Islam in a less-than-favorable light. The cartoons also sparked controversy when they were first published a few years ago.
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Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
Serious note: Lets take a look at this situation.
Attack: Cartoon
Defense: Death threats, burn down buildings, deface websites, protests, and the list goes on.
Conclusion: Overkill?
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Funny)
You mean Chuck Norris is a muslim?
Parent
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a little strange to me, but before this Danish cartoon incident I was siding with the 'doves', yet now I find myself siding with the hawks. Freedom of speech is at least as sacred to me as the prophet is to a muslim person. It's such a crucial part of the very foundation of our culture. People died for it. There can be no compromise on this issue. No apologetic placating. Particularly not for the type of murderous trash who are willing to violently burn/kill/vandalise/hack/destroy etc. for some cartoons. I realise that (a) it is a minority of Muslims and (b) they are actually behaving against the very teachings of the Prophet and Islam, but dammit, the rest of the Islamic people better get these violent ones in line or we are rightfully headed for a clash of ideals here.
Parent
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
If there's anything that this is proving, it's that the crazies are not in the minority here. 500,000 people chanting "death to america, death to israel?"
Granted, while most Muslims will not actively torch embassies and behead infidels, they genuinely beleive the entire world should be forcibly conquered by their religion.
Parent
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Informative)
You are very misinformed (which is admittedly not your fault as the US news it trying to make it sound exactly like the way you are taking it). This "demonstration against the cartoons" is actually just an annaul holy event. You go there next year, you'll see roughly the same number of people marching there. Its just that some of the Islamic radical leaders are getting up in front of this crowd and railing against the cartoons and shouting things like "death to America".
Of course a headline saying "1/2 Million Muslims attend demonstration chanting 'death to America'" sounds much more exciting than "Annual Shia religious event draws 1/2 million where a few radical leaders condem America". I'll let you guess which one American news organizations (I use that term loosely) will lead the evening news with.
Parent
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Informative)
Maybe it's the fault of the media in certain countries that the moderate Muslim reaction isn't being sought or heard?
Bob
Parent
Re:Xymphora Blogspot Thought Experiment (Score:5, Insightful)
"If you want to try to cure yourself of the problem and remove the cultural blinders, you have to do a Nigger Thought Experiment. If you prefer, you can do a Kike Thought Experiment. Instead of the Danish cartoons, image a big-lipped, bug-eyed 'nigger' eating a giant watermelon. Or perhaps you'd prefer a cloaked, hook-nosed 'kike' with a giant bag of gold 'jewing' some gentile out of his money? Would you be defending the right of the papers to publish such cartoons based on the 'enlightenment values' of the West? Would you be so proud of your precious 'free speech'?"
Yeah. This is allowed. Organizations like the KKK? Allowed to spew their hatred. That argument is totally bogus. The civilized world doesn't riot when people publish offensive stuff. Most of the time, it gets an hour or so of press and then ignored.
The cartoons were targetted at a very specific and very vocal muslim population that uses violence as a means to solving their problems. As people who want to be in prominent places, they can be ridiculed. I can see how the way it was done is *highly offensive*, but that doesn't make it okay to burn stuff down. You're just deluding yourself into the most extremeist form of political correctness if you think so.
"Here is a small list of some of the things we do to Muslims, without even a hint that there might be some moral issues involved"
You and I both know that's bullshit. No one imprisons muslim women to take them away from their families just for fun. No one bombs innocent children, calls it a mistake, but really meant to do it on purpose. No one chops down olive tree groves just to laugh at dejected muslim faces.
Lastly, It's clear you've never read the history of the Palestinian refugees and how they got there. Before you reply - and I'm pretty sure there's going to be a reply here - go look up exactly what forced Palestinian people from their lands. [Try "Arab Israelis" as a start"]
Parent
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
The question is, how do most Muslims understand the teachings of the Prophet? If most of them really do think it's okay to murder people because they are "infidels", then we have a major problem. In that case, it's pretty much our DUTY to publish the cartoons, and more.
But if most of them do NOT think that, then it is THEIR duty (and certainly in their best interests) to put out their alternate message, and to tell the world that murder and kidnappings are NOT what Islam teaches. If the passages you quoted above are in the Koran (and not taken out of context), and Bin Ladin and his ilk interpret them the way they seem to read, and the rest of the Islamic world either keeps silent, then they have only themselves to blame for the consequences -- they can hardly blame the people who take Bin Ladin at his word that he is speaking for Muslims everywhere.
Parent
Re:Name one (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Informative)
Um... They're here [muhajabah.com]. And here [cair-net.org]. And here and here [masnet.org] and here [baheyeldin.com] and here [americanmuslimwoman.com] and here [jannah.org] and even here [cbsnews.com] and, oh, there are a few hundred more here [muhajabah.com].
Muslim leaders around the world have issued fatwa after fatwa condemning terrorism and calling for an end to suicide bombings, car bombings, bus bombs, subway bombs, and every other bombing short of another Uwe Boll film. Just because Bill O'Reilly doesn't tell you about it doesn't mean that is never happened.
Parent
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem isn't that leaders "around the world" don't do that... the problem is that the leaders in the countries that are encouraging this, and sending money to do more of it, and celebrating it when it happens are not condemning it. What good does it do when some cleric in Malaysia says that some despondent, crazy Syrian kid shouldn't be listening to the non-stop encouragement to kill westerners? It's the people shouting the non-stop encouragement that have to change, and they don't want to. So the only option is to actually stop them, and the reaction from most governments in the Islamic world has been to be somewhat helpful, at best, while other people do it for them.
Do you really think that the collection of murderous bomb plotters that just "escaped" from a Yemeni prison were just such geniuses that they got out despite the best efforts of local government and religious leaders to keep them from running out and blowing up another ship? No. They got out through a tunnel to neighboring mosque. You know, one of those buildings run by Islamic religious leaders. You know, the ones that are not preaching peace? Those are the people that keep stirring this crap up, and make the embassy bombers, the hijackers, the journalist beheaders and the people that blow up kids in restaurants feel comfortable and morally correct. The religious leaders are the problem, and their peers aren't doing enough to showcase that hypocrisy to the world. Every time one of these pro-suicide clowns gets airtime on Al Jazeera, 100 more rational clerics should be screaming from the rooftops about how evil they are. Coverage differences does not account for the comparative silence from those quarters. You know it, they know it, and the people throwing firebombs at embassies over cartoons know it.
Parent
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Informative)
Well, here [bbc.co.uk] are some and here [bbc.co.uk] are some more. The latter is particularly telling, it contains quotes from a group of over 500 clerics in the UK shortly after the London bombings:
"On behalf of over 500 clerics, scholars and Imams the British Muslim Forum issues the following religious decree:
Islam strictly, strongly and severely condemns the use of violence and the destruction of innocent lives.
There is neither place nor justification in Islam for extremism, fanaticism or terrorism. Suicide bombings, which killed and injured innocent people in London, are haram - vehemently prohibited in Islam, and those who committed these barbaric acts in London are criminals not martyrs.
Such acts, as perpetrated in London, are crimes against all of humanity and contrary to the teachings of Islam.
The Holy Koran declares:
"Whoever kills a human being, then it is as though he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a human life, it is as though he had saved all mankind." (Koran, Surah al-Maidah (5), verse 32).
Islam teaches us to be caring towards all of Allah's (God's) creation, not just mankind. The Prophet of Islam who was described as "a mercy to the worlds" said: "All creation is the family of Allah and that person is most beloved to Allah who is kind and caring towards His family."
Islam's position is clear and unequivocal: murder of one soul is the murder of the whole of humanity; he who shows no respect for human life is an enemy of humanity.
We pray for the defeat of extremism and terrorism in the world.
We pray for peace, security and harmony to triumph in multicultural Great Britain."
Parent
Let's see here... (Score:5, Insightful)
I protest that characterization by calling for or comitting acts of terrorism and violence, both in the real world, and on the internet.
Nope, no hypocrisy here!
Parent
compare.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
No higher-order reasoning (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
perhaps you should read the news (Score:5, Insightful)
Bottom line is these 14th century nitwits armed with modern technology are a danger to everyone for their ease of manipulation and lack of reason when it comes to anything remotely regarding Islam.
I really doubt Moslems are going to survive in their form for another 50 years. They either blunt themselves (as Christians did) or they're eliminated just like every other non-viable belief system. (Shakers, zoarastrians, et al)
Parent
Re:perhaps you should read the news (Score:5, Insightful)
September, 2005: A series of cartoons is published in the Danish newspaper Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten, depicting the Prophet in a number of unflattering ways. Nobody notices.
October, 2005: Nobody notices again.
November and December, 2005: Still no response. It's almost like nobody cares.
Early January, 2006: During the Hajj, an annual pilgrimage in which millions of people travel to Mecca, negligence on behalf of the organizers . Earlier that month a hotel near Mecca had collapsed, killing at least seventy people. Both tragedies were seen as being caused by the carelessness of the Saudi government, and the metaphorical poo-poo started to fly. [wikipedia.org]
Nobody heard about it in North America because they were too concerned with more important things like Nick and Jessica's break-up and whether Angelina and Brad were likely to get back together.
Later That Same Week: The Saudi press, which is completely controlled by the government, discovers to its shock that a mere four months ago a foreign newspaper with a limited circularion had printed a few poorly drawn cartoons which nobody seemed to care about. Sensing a far more important story at hand the Saudi government drops all plans to criticize themselves for their fatal blunders at the Hajj and instead starts running up to four stories a day about the horrors of infidel cartoonists. The locals eat it up.
The European and American media sense a big boost to their circulation and ratings, eat it up with just as much fervor, and start reprinting the cartoons. This is a bit like throwing water on a grease fire, and it leads us to where we are today.
The dog is being wagged, folks.
Parent
I'm pretty sure it was all of you (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Let's see here... (Score:5, Insightful)
In religion?
Never!
Parent
All I Can Say Is... (Score:5, Insightful)
That would be indefensible by the media.
Hey, come to think of it, there really isn't a lot of that rioting and setting-things-ablaze-for-days thing at all here in The West. Why d'you suppose that is?
g'head, g'head, discuss this amongst yourselves...
Parent
Re:All I Can Say Is... (Score:5, Interesting)
To put it another way, the single best way of pacifying a community is giving people something to lose. Nothing turns someone who doesn't think deeply into a peaceful person as quickly as possessions.
Parent
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Funny)
Defense: Death threats, burn down buildings, deface websites, protests, and the list goes on.
If those defenses worked, Cathy would have been off the comic pages years ago.
Parent
if it were a movie? (Score:5, Interesting)
You know, the usual.
Parent
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, but as a friend of mine (who is actually over in the Middle East) puts it: "This whole [Danish/Muslim] dispute is simply a lightning rod for a backward theocratic movement which is unable to successfully compete in a modern world of ideas and business."
In other words, it's like when you fight with your wife over the dishes. You're not really fighting about the dishes; it's just the symptom that manifests to indicate a deeper issue.
Parent
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
I believe there is an exception to be made in the case of muslims. Violence is a tenet in their religion as reaction to many things. Hell, it is in their koran to kill blasphemers, and infidels.
I don't know of any other religion in the world, that outright preaches violence as a direct approach to anything offensive.
Parent
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Funny)
No kidding! I can't stand assholes like that!
Parent
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, that has little or nothing to do with it. They're pissed because someone drew a picture of Muhammad, which is forbidden in Islam (the reasoning being that if you start showing pictures of the prophet, that could lead to idolatry). So any kind of image of the prophet can be seen as a "graven image" and against the will of Allah. That by itself is a pretty reasonable view point, but killing people and destroying property over it is not.
Parent
I want a cartoon (Score:4, Funny)
That has the Muhammed with a bomb in his turban, a molitav cocktail in his hand and a machine gun slung over his back, with a crazed expression saying "That will teach them not to depict me and my followers as violent and intolerant.". In the backround there should be an embassy burning and lots of burning pieces of paper flying around with the words 'defaced website' on them.
For good measure, we could have a cartoon of Jesus using thumbscrews or having sex or something too. I'd host it. I think those cartoons would make an excellent worldwide protest against this sort of idiotic behavior.
Re:I want a cartoon (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that a series of harmless cartoons released by one independent newspaper, which I assume to be owned by a private corporation, was enough to set off such a widespread violent reaction in Muslim countries just goes to show why the world as a whole has such a negative view of the Muslim religion and Islam as a whole. Perhaps if they would've simply left well enough alone or gone about their protests in a peaceful, diplomatic way, the cartoons would've stopped long ago. At the very least, they might have gained some respect and reputation as a peaceful religion. Instead, they've reinforced the very image which sparked the protest in the first place.
Parent
this has to stop (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:this has to stop (Score:5, Insightful)
That's not gonna happen as long as a) the rest of the world needs oil, and b) the muslim world is sitting on most of it.
Parent
Re:this has to stop (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, these are still by far the most of this billion sized group. That's why we aren't having an all out world war about this.
Parent
very sad (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:very sad (Score:5, Insightful)
Bad people do bad things. It doesn't matter if they're Muslim, American or Buddist. I'll defend every muslim who doesn't participate in a riot and related actions until they're either all killed, or I die.
Parent
Provocation? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, time to start the popcorn since I can't do much but watch. [1] Don't worry -- I won't let the tinfoil hat mess up the microwave popcorn.
I don't understand... (Score:5, Insightful)
Seems a bit counter-productive to me.
"The speed with which the community united" (Score:5, Interesting)
bloggers... (Score:5, Interesting)
-----
The Ranting Sandmonkey, an Egyptian blog, illustrates just how bogus the MSM refusal to discuss the Danish cartoons "out of respect for Islam" is:
Freedom For Egyptians reminded me why the cartoons looked so familiar to me: they were actually printed in the Egyptian Newspaper Al Fagr back in October 2005. I repeat, October 2005, during Ramadan, for all the egyptian muslim population to see, and not a single squeak of outrage was present. Al Fagr isn't a small newspaper either: it has respectable circulation in Egypt, since it's helmed by known Journalist Adel Hamoudah. Looking around in my house I found the copy of the newspaper, so I decided to scan it and present to all of you to see.
------
'The past as prologue'
http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]
Cartoons were previously published in Egypt, no pr (Score:5, Informative)
http://egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.com/2006/02/bo
Anyone heard about this? Looks like there is a double-standard.
No one really cares about the cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
The cartoons are just an excuse. The cartoon riots are about rioting, not about cartoons. Rioters riot for fun and profit. Protests are arranged to gain political power for the people arranging them.
Web sites are defaced for the same reason bricks are thrown through windows. It's the same reason Reginald Denny [wikipedia.org] was beat up. It's a combination of hate and the idea that "we can get away with it this time".
I advise not enabling the rioters and web-page defacers by giving them what they want: attention, concessions, etc.
Semi-OT: On Violence (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm agnostic. I get offended when my state's motto is "With God, all things are possible". I don't like hearing "God Bless America" every time George Bush opens his mouth. I do understand I live in a country with religious freedom, and I'm just going to have to take it. If I can't take it anymore, I'll move to a country that supresses religious liberties.
Many of the European Muslims think they can get the good benefits of a liberal democracy (decent jobs, market-based economy), while asking for special status for their religious beliefs. Someone needs to tell them part of living in a liberal democracy is having thick skin.
Media (Score:5, Interesting)
See this comment made earlier today:
That particularly rung true to me because I like to digest information in quick hits. I like to check out the summaries of news items and if something is interesting, hear some commentary on it and dig a little deeper.
If all the headlines are "Muslims have taken hostages in..." or "A radical Islamic group exploded...", then people become conditioned to believe that Muslims and Islam are violent when they really aren't.
In a thread a while back, someone made a fantastic observation about Africa. The general premise was that most people still think that the entire continent of Africa is nothing more than corrupt leaders and starving children and this viewpoint was partly blamed on the media and mostly blamed on the influx and inundation of "Save the children" commericals in the 1990s.
Re:Really offensive... (Score:5, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muha
Parent
Re:Here we go again... (Score:5, Insightful)
But then you seem to restrain yourself from saying outright, that Muslims are freaking savages. Even though you did mention that "war seems to be what they want". I guess you were about to say what was on your mind, but political correctness and liberal virtues so cherished on Slashdot made you refrain.
Well, I'll say it for you. Too many Muslims are freaking savages. Yeah I'm sure there are peaceful and civilized ones out there, but if you look at the ratio of peaceful citizens to raving nuts and compare it to that of Christian nations or Buddhist nations or Shinto nations or whatever, you can't help but come to the conclusion that Muslim, as it exists in the real world today (and not in theory), is a barbaric, violent, repressive religion.
Parent
Re:Here we go again... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:joke time (Score:5, Funny)
A: Like this.
Parent
Re:A Danies skewed viewpoint (Score:5, Insightful)
If you kick a hornets' nest, you'll get stung.
So we should make our freedom's subject to the fear of reprisals. The Hamas leader said that if someone would have been successful in acting on the Ayatollah's fatah to kill the Novelist S. Rushdie then these cartoon would not happen.
Whatever one may think of the moslem world, this is simply not an honourable way to behave.
And burning embassies and issueing death threats to cartoonist for lines on a piece of paper is? Actually the death and kidnapping threats extended to any citizen from the countries that published these cartoons regardless of affiliation.
I sure hope you do not represent the average Danish thinking.
Parent
Re:From a dane (Score:5, Insightful)
I do agree that as a general rule, you should respect other peoples beliefs. You do have a right to personal beliefs.
I do NOT agree with the following statement:
I think I'm pretty much your average christian-by-culture/atheist-by-belief dane and I understand why the muslims are so pissed! These drawings show nothing but disrespect for the entire muslim community, both here and in the rest of the world.
I cannot understand why they are so pissed. These are disrespectful drawings; but at BEST, thats a matter of taste. Even if its goes against their religious beliefs. These drawings did not advocate wholesale slaughter of muslisms, or anything like that.
They're rude. Do you think I should start a riot everytime someone is rude to me?
The muslim world is embroilded in horrible conditions, things that make everyones skin crawl, and we're having an international culture war over a couple of CARTOON DRAWINGS?
That's perverse. There are real issues here; treatment of muslims in the West, human rights in muslism societs, the vast economic disparities between the 1st world and the 3rd world. And we're talking about BLOODY CARTOONS!
Quite simply, there is no reason for the West to kowtow to Muslim rage. The right answer is for 'us', the reasonable people, to say things like this: "Yes, those cartoons were in poor taste, and I myself do not believe in their message. I respect the rights of Muslims across the world, and have a healthy respect for Islam. However, I also respect the rights of our news media to publish anything they desire, so long as it does not directly incite violence. I may not agree with what they say, but I will defend to the death their right to say it"
We're talking about cartoons. We're not talking about a massacre in tiannamen square. We're not talking about stoning women to death. We're not talking about Soviet purges, or a Jewish holocaust. We aren't discussing a Nuclear War.
Yet this is perhaps the biggest set of international protests I've seen since the fall of the Iron Curtain.
WHAT THE FUCK? (Pardon my French)
I get very, very upset when I hear about the NSA spying on Americans. I get very, very upset when I hear President Bush say that it is unpatriotic to criticize the administration.
But do I start a riot, and burn the local government offices? No.
When I see cartoons that ridicule my race (I'm Iranian), do I flip out and kill people, and demand laws against freedom of speech? No.
The supposed "outrage" we are seeing is misdirection on the part of dictators and religious leaders in the Middle East. There is a much historied tradition of blaming the Islamic world's problems on the West. This is an extension of that blame, and its reached absurd proportions.
Dozens of people have died over these cartoons. If the Islamic world spent a quarter of that effort on overthrowing unjust governments, there wouldn't be a single dictator in the Middle East.
I do not understand why they are this upset. I do not get why they are "pissed". It doesn't make sense to me, and its unacceptable.
Parent