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Used Microsoft Licenses For Sale

Posted by CowboyNeal on Thu Nov 10, 2005 08:55 PM
from the second-time-around dept.
An anonymous reader writes "A secondhand dealer in Britain has been given the green light by Microsoft to resell software licenses from insolvent or downsizing companies, ZDNet is reporting. The reseller, Disclic, is legally allowed to sell the licenses at a discounted rate of between 20 percent to 50 percent, much lower than Microsoft's resellers. Partners of the software giant have expressed unhappiness over the issue as it undercuts their business. "I've never heard the like, and I am stunned," said Gordon Davies, the commercial director of Microsoft reseller Compusys. "This is clearly going to take away revenue from the channel and from Microsoft," he said."
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[+] Microsoft Software for Sale, Slightly Used 159 comments
Alsee writes "The Register reports that recent UK business Discount-Licensing.com has been having booming growth reselling pre-owned Microsoft software licenses 20-50% below retail, after spotting the opportunity in Microsoft's licensing terms and Britain's insolvency laws for insolvent and downsizing businesses. Sorry, no discount personal OS resales, corporate bulk resales only."
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  • great (Score:5, Informative)

    by scenestar (828656) on Thursday November 10 2005, @08:57PM (#14004190) Homepage Journal
    I can't wait for the day I can buy "used" mp3s too!
  • by dada21 (163177) * <adam.dada@gmail.com> on Thursday November 10 2005, @08:57PM (#14004191) Homepage Journal
    The supply of these licenses is limited and must be labeled "used." Sure, CDs are CDs but it still is a different product. Competitors are free to negotiate a similar license, or even buy these cheap used copies from the reseller and resell them themselves at a tiny profit.

    This situation makes me think of the whole (wrong) idea of predatory pricing. It doesn't exist. [educationreport.org] In 1904, Henry Dow exported bromine to Germany, to sell at a price far below the cartels. The cartels decided to drop their price below cost to destroy Dow's business. Dow bought their sub-cost Bromine and resold it to the German market at a hefty pricing.

    This deal is good for budget-conscious consumers and will only be a blip for most resellers. There are numerous ways for them to compete. Whining to Microsoft is not an answer.
    • You might want to distinguish between the howls of complaint from any business when foreign manufacturers sell goods cheaper than the business can themselves produce and the real concept of predatory pricing.

      Predatory pricing does exist and is effective in the right circumstances to protect a monopoly and enhance profits. Thinly veiled trade protectionism also exists. Don't confuse the two - even if people sometimes try to talk about trade issues as predatory pricing.

      In particular, predatory pricing can be
    • by pavon (30274) on Thursday November 10 2005, @09:52PM (#14004459)
      That story is cool, but it does not apply to all cases of predatory pricing. It only worked because the cartel was charging different prices in different countries. In this age, the only situations where that happens it is backed by law preventing someone like Dow from doing what he did.

      When a large company prices below the market value (be it in the world market or a walled off local market), and they have deep enough pockets to take a small loss, then there is nothing that the small companies can do about it. They can't buy up the product and resell it, as it will still be more expensive than the original. Predatory pricing does exist, and a single anicdote does not dispel that fact.
  • Perfect World (Score:5, Insightful)

    by E Galois (857353) on Thursday November 10 2005, @08:58PM (#14004195)
    In a perfect world, isn't this how it should work anyway?

    What's interesting is M$ is consenting to it???
    • What's interesting is M$ is consenting to it???

      Microsoft wants to be known as a service provider, not a product seller. You see, products can be resold but services cannot.
    • Not really ... it might just be an image thing.
    • Microsoft probably had to consent, otherwise they would have lost in court anyway. Microsoft Germany already lost a similar case in german court, where they tried to forbid a computer store (Snogard) to buy used licenses from people who don't need them (installing from a different source for instance) and bundle them with the shop's computer offerings.

      Microsoft lost badly in court, mainly because of the First Sale doctrin (which in Germany is called Erschoepfungsgrundsatz).
      • Microsoft lost badly in court, mainly because of the First Sale doctrin (which in Germany is called Erschoepfungsgrundsatz).

        Because who could compete with a word like "Erschoepfungsgrundsatz"?
        • "Is that why they sold Xbox at a loss?"

          They sold the X-box at a loss as they would have sold very few copies at cost, as a loss leader to make back the money on games.

          "Is that why they decided to give away VS2005 Express RTM for free through Nov 1996 rather than charging $50 as originally planned?"

          Because they like giving freebies to gain market share. Then start charging.

          "Is that why WMP10 is free?"

          Designed to lock people into their media format where they make the money.

          "Is that why hotmail is free?"

          Even
  • hey, you know (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 10 2005, @08:59PM (#14004201)
    Car makers have to compete against a huge used market and still survive (well except maybe GM).
    • Re:hey, you know (Score:4, Insightful)

      by returnoftheyeti (678724) on Thursday November 10 2005, @09:13PM (#14004282)

      A used car has a depriciation value. A used car has an unknown history, phyisical wear and tear, and could fail to function hours after you have purchased it.

      A software license has no phyisical wear and tear. It dosnt exist as a material object. All it is is a piece of paper that has to be renewed (software assurance), for a cost, in the future. The value of the license is only in how long it is good for. A used software license that is 1 year old at 10% discount is better than a used 3 day old used Lexus at a 50% discount

      • Re:hey, you know (Score:4, Insightful)

        by nolife (233813) on Thursday November 10 2005, @09:55PM (#14004477) Homepage Journal
        Software is not depreciated by wear and tear like a car is but it definately loses value by not being cutting edge. Take something like a game. The initial price a console/PC game is roughly $50USD at release, it loses value over time and drops significantly when version 2 comes out. That software reaches a point where those that want that specific software title have already bought it. The only potential buyers now are those that are passing buy and notice the low price. It all eventually ends up in the 3 for $20 bin until the supply is exhausted or a third party company negotiates a deal to package it together with other older titles and "bonus" material with very little technical support (like the EA sports does with their 1-3 year old titles). Oh, Tiger Woods 2004? That might be fun to play and it is only $10.

        There is a big difference though in what I describe above and what this article is about. Above, EA or whoever, can control the sale and price of the older software titles to ensure it does not directly compete with their newer offerings. When they feel comfortable, they repackage, lower the price, and deal. With this article, the original company (MS) is out of the loop. We all know MS does not sell older versions of their software and obviosuly does not think they would benefit because by doing so. In fact, their license stategy is based on preventing further sales and go out of their way to prevent a secondary market.

        Back to your comment specifically though. The linked article does not state what they were actually trying to sell. What if it is W2K or maybe Office 2000? Its market value should be much lower because it is outdated and not cutting edge. I'd even say the same would apply with XP and Office 2K3 but of course they are still selling that mainstream. Maybe they need to fire up the monopoly powers and restrict the license more to prevent loop holes, the method of licensing, or release newer versions of software faster! Maybe they should start a software rental program or make the software web based so you pay every month instead of just for new versions. Oh wait..
               
      • A better comparison would be a software license and a car plate license.

        If you want to use the used car example, try the actual software product, which actually does have a useful lifespan (for justification see accounting rules for deprecation of software).
    • A used car, while a better deal in my opinion, is very different from a used license. It's very unlikely that your used license is going to have any hidden defects, because a license doesn't degrade, it's just a right to legally use software.
      • Buying a used car is buying someone else's problem. If you want a real value, buy last year's model when the showrooms are trying desperately to get rid of their old inventory.. late December or so. They'll often give it to you at or below cost, and you have all the peace of mind of a warranty on a brand new car without worrying about the driving or maintanance habits of a previous owner.

        Of course if you don't care at all about the quality of the vehicle, then yeah, a $500 Festiva is definately the way to
    • I wouldn't necessarily say that's a good comparison. A used car is not necessarily in as good a condition as when it was brand new. Software on the other hand, whether you got it brand new from a shop or from a one of these resellers doesnt really matter. It's not as if they would be selling it with the disclaimer 'Microsoft Windows 2000, good working order except due to excessive use, Microsoft Paint no longer works and should be replaced' :)
      • ...If you're buying a "used" Win98 license (which is no longer supported, right?), then it is *DEFINITLY* not in "as good of condition" as it was "new" (unpatched vulnerabilities, no new IE for you, etc, etc). You could make the same argument for Win2000, et la if you wanted to push it (not that I'd go quite that far).

        When it gets down to it, couldn't vulnerabilities be analogous to dents and dings (or major engine trouble)? I know my Win2000 server keeps hanging on Microsoft's recent DirectX v9 patch, if

  • Great idea (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Barkley44 (919010) on Thursday November 10 2005, @08:59PM (#14004202) Homepage
    This is a great idea, if everyone can make some money and in turn people save money form not having to buy full priced ones. Of course the resellers are worried, but there will be a limited supply, eventually companies will have to go back to them. And resellers will have the newest versions, which used licenses typically won't be for.
  • I predict . . . (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Q-Cat5 (664698) on Thursday November 10 2005, @09:00PM (#14004210)
    . . . a revised EULA in the next Fix Pack.

    If, as TFA suggests, this is a loophole in the licensing agreements, a simple change to the already largely ignored EULA should adroitly close it.
  • by ratpack91 (698171) on Thursday November 10 2005, @09:01PM (#14004213)
    I've got a couple of used Linux licenses knocking around if anyone wants one. At $349.50 that's 50% below the retail price! Offers to cheaplinux@mailinator.com
  • It's unlikely one second-hand dealer is going to change Microsofts fortunes whilst it might be beneficial to him it'd be hard to imagine enough 2nd hand licenses being found to come anywhere close to the ammount of new licenses required daily in terms of volume. "This is clearly going to take away revenue from the channel and from Microsoft," Yeah but how much? MS wouldnt've given the green light if they hadn't analyzed the situation and determined that it was very insignificant to them.
  • I wonder if... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by lxt (724570) on Thursday November 10 2005, @09:03PM (#14004224) Journal
    ...Gordon Davies would be so "stunned" if he was a creditor owed money by a liquidated company. This is great news for creditors, because they've got more money in the pot to cover the debts owed.

    And at the same time, people get cheap software. And I don't really think this will be taking business away from Microsoft resellers - the article doesn't mention it, but I assume this second-hand software won't come with any of the additional support bundled with new programmes.
  • First Sale (Score:5, Informative)

    by arrrrg (902404) on Thursday November 10 2005, @09:06PM (#14004246)
    From the Wikipedia article on first sale [wikipedia.org]:

    District courts in California and Texas have issued decisions applying the doctrine of first sale for bundled computer software in Softman v. Adobe (2001) and Novell, Inc. v. CPU Distrib., Inc. (2000) even if the software contains a EULA prohibiting resale.

    M$ can grumble all they want, but (at least for some of us) reselling Windows is a legal right regardless of the contents of the EULA.
    • So does that mean that Microsoft succeeded in binding the Windows license to the physical machine?

      I know most of the hardware resellers (Dell, HP, etc.) affix the license sticker (pretty much permanently) to the case. When I asked a rep at Dell if I could take a copy of Windows 2000 Pro off of one laptop and install it on another (that had come with ME), I was told this violated the licensing agreement.

      On the other hand, I've heard that it's legal to transfer a retail copy from one machine to another s
    • They are reselling these licenses with Microsoft's blessings... they aren't grumbling.

      -everphilski-
    • Re:First Sale (Score:4, Interesting)

      by norton_I (64015) <hobbes@utrek.dhs.org> on Thursday November 10 2005, @10:22PM (#14004604)
      That would probably only apply to individually licensed software, not those purchsed through volume licensing programs, which is what this is about. It is possible that you could resell or transfer your entire license block, but probably not do so per seat if it was forbidden in the license agreement.
    • You know the drill: IANAL, but I am a law student. Also, I view EULAs to be legal abominations that should not be enforced by state or federal courts for a number of policy reasons [lifeofalawstudent.com].

      reselling Windows is a legal right regardless of the contents of the EULA

      No. Reselling Windows is explicitly a legal right regardless of the contents of the EULA in those jurisdictions that have ruled so. A federal district court decision is binding only in that district. A district may be anywhere from a fourth to a wh
  • Market Balance (Score:3, Insightful)

    by diakka (2281) on Thursday November 10 2005, @09:07PM (#14004249)
    I'm glad to see this come about. So maybe this is only OK'd in the UK, but is there anything preventing American companies from purchasing licenses abroad?
  • by uberdave (526529) on Thursday November 10 2005, @09:14PM (#14004286) Homepage
    Partners of the software giant have expressed unhappiness over the issue as it undercuts their business.

    "I don't like it because our competition is selling the product for less than we are. That will cut into our profits. How do people expect me to keep fuel in my Hummer and my Lear jet in the air? It's not fair!"
  • it doesn't seem very MS like to give up possible licensing revenue.

    i see several possibilities

    1: ms thought this would end up being allowed by uk law whether they liked it or not and decided to do a deal before it wen't to court.

    2: they wanted to hurt existing resellers who were being disloyal

    3: they wanted to provide a kickback to someone.

  • by Lumpy (12016) on Thursday November 10 2005, @09:20PM (#14004322) Homepage
    At hamfests you always could find someone with gobs of copies of just out of date and old MS apps and OS's with the magical license sticker or certificate for dirt. Hell last year at Dayton you could buy unmarked offbrand OEM XP pro licenses for $25.00 each that register just fine.

    This is simply large scale with MS's blessing. Others have been doing it anyways and telling MS to f themselves for years.

    I bought 4 copies to sell with laptops I rebuild/recondition. Microsoft would call me a pirate/evil person but I really dont give a rats ass what they think. They register, validate perfectly and have the magical feel-good sticker with install key. That's all I care about and that is also all the people I sell the laptops to care about.
  • This is old news (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Adelle (851961) on Thursday November 10 2005, @09:27PM (#14004356)
    Software has been (legitimately and legally) bought and sold on e-bay for some time now. Does anyone think that a few more Windows 2000 users is bad news for Microsoft or its resellers? It's just another way of increasing the potential market for the next version (not counting those of us that know that newer!=better).
  • IIRC pretty much all standard M$'s EULAs are very specific about non-transferability (well, this is a standard feature in most EULAs, not just M$'s). Does this mean that they acknowledge the non-enforceability of this clause ? (I'm really curious to know, perhaps somebody with IP law background can help me).
  • Here is the link to the Disclic Ltd website...
    URL: http://www.discount-licensing.com/ [discount-licensing.com]

    There is also a more in-depth article on the topic here:
    URL: http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2005/11/10/outlaw _software/ [channelregister.co.uk]

  • by Anonymous Coward
    It is often said that windows' largest competitor is their older OS's. If businesses could resale their Win 2000 licenses, they might be a little more interested in upgrading to Vista.

    Furthermore, these "used" licenses would allow MS to compete with other low cost operating systems. Granted, MS would not make anything of the sale, but since they will be making mad money lute from their future subscription services, they should be able to maintain a profit...maybe
  • That's bound to be a boom. Because everybody knows, nothing holds value like an old Microsoft distribution! Yes, I'm sure IT professionals nationwide are dying to get ahold of Windows 95 disks - still loading as good as the day they were sold!
  • This is just a smart tactic to create lockin and ensure future revenue.
  • "I've never heard the like, and I am stunned," said Gordon Davies, the commercial director of Microsoft reseller Compusys. "This is clearly going to take away revenue from the channel and from Microsoft," he said.

    And there you have another problem when you deal with a monopoly. We know it's bad for software, but it's also bad for business. One entity makes the rules - there is no appeal, and no other supplier if you disagree.

  • by Bulmakau (918237) on Thursday November 10 2005, @09:48PM (#14004448)
    I totally agree that treselling used licences of MS is OK. It is logical and right. If you buy a licence for a Windows OS, no reason this licence can't be resold under the same terms...
    However, it is important to note that licence is not a simple product like a TV screen or a fruit.
    Here are three reasons:
    1. Lets say a licence was bought discounted as part of a non-profit or educational licence pack (schools, universities, organizations..). Such a licence should not be resold to a business entity or a private user.
    2. A licence bares commitments by the client, more than most products. For example, you are not allowed to share the product freely, or copy it. (maybe not only because of licencing issues but also because of such). In some cases, a licence allows the use of a product only to a specific person, or under specific terms (specific hardware, environment). For example, not allowing the use of a product by non-development personnel. Not allowing the use of a product on a multiple CPU computers, etc...
    3. Partly like #2, licencing sometimes are regional. Some people suggest that if its allowed in the UK for now, it should be open to international trade as well. Well.. not necessarily. For example, some licences are regional. Sometimes for good reason (allowing 3rd world countries the use of software that is very expensive for them if they had to buy it in other countries). OR limits of technology/security export. Sometimes cross-border trading has to be limited. That is true - noone likes to be limited, but sometimes there might be a good reason to accept such limitation

    Can't think of any other differences for now, but those two demonstrate in my opinion why there are some differences with licencing.
    With that said, reselling of a licence under the same obligations/terms as the original purchase is something I think is very right and just and should be implemented world-wide.
    Just my 2 cents.
  • Poor Davies (Score:3, Interesting)

    by shoolz (752000) on Thursday November 10 2005, @09:52PM (#14004460) Homepage
    He's "stunned"

    Well, according to Microsoft, it's within the parameters of the license agreement and MS has OK'ed the selling. So Davies is just pissed off because somebody can undercut him. Booo hoo.
  • reality (Score:2, Informative)

    Quote:
    "I've never heard the like, and I am stunned," said Gordon Davies, the commercial director of Microsoft reseller Compusys. "This is clearly going to take away revenue from the channel and from Microsoft," he said."
    Ok I see this taking money from the reselling partners..
    However Microsoft will be seeing $$$ signs.. Why well those extra licenses will end up on computers that likely have no more support. Therefore Microsoft stands to make a Significant amount of money at 200-250 per occurrence.
    If
  • 'Wah! Bankruptcy auctions undercut my business!'

    WTF? Who cares?

  • Well hey (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Grey Ninja (739021) <matter.grey@gmai l . com> on Friday November 11 2005, @12:03AM (#14005167) Homepage Journal
    I have a new laptop I bought recently that included a bundled Windows XP Home. It's a dedicated Linux box now, and I honestly have no use for Windows on the machine. Maybe sometime in the near future, I can resell the license and get my money back for something I never used?