NSF Reports No Geek Shortage 233
Baldrson writes "The NSF's report titled 'Graduate Enrollment in Science and Engineering Programs Up in 2003, But Declines for First-Time Foreign Students' (a pdf of the report released for the first time last month) is now available online. In an analysis of the report, Edwin S. Rubenstein of ESR Research states of these latest figures: '4.2 percent of science and engineering PhDs work outside their field of training, chiefly for financial reasons. This further weakens corporate America's claim of a shortage of high-tech workers.'" Interesting to see how things have changed since then.
Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:5, Insightful)
It was *cheap* high-tech workers that they said were in short supply...
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:4, Insightful)
Besides, since when does one need a PhD or even a college degree to be a geek?
I know people with no degree that make killer apps with real-world-solid designs.
I think corporations are looking in the wrong places (I know the fortune 500 I work at is looking in all the wrong places).
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:5, Insightful)
Big companies like Intel, MS, and HP have been claiming there is a "shortage" for years, even during the depths of the tech recession of 2001-2004. Yet many of them have been implementing hiring freezes and other staff-reducing measures.
As somebody pointed out, MS almost exclusively hires only graduates. If there was a "shortage", shouldn't they expand their hiring to older workers? They just want to keep being picky, that is why they lobby for visa workers and more access to India. Young people without families work longer hours. And, they get "A" workers at "C" prices.
(correction) (Score:2, Informative)
I meant fresh graduates, just out of college. (And I think the grammer is messed up in that sentence, but I am too lazy to fix it.)
Re:(correction) (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's a bit of an exaggeration.
As smart and skilled as young tech workers might be, they don't have the experience yet of working in a team environment on large projects. Anyone that's ever worked in such environments knows the value of experienced members, in terms of keeping the goals focused and the lines of communication properly flowing. Schools cannot fully teach experience, and experience is a big component of what I'd call an "A" worker.
Plus, with starting salaries averaging higher than public school teachers or police officers... calling them "C" salaries is stretching it a bit.
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:5, Interesting)
For whatever reason, many companies don't really value experience. Managers view it like factory work: "Can they put the peg into the hole when needed?" Or "Do they know JavaFoo++ and have a cert?"
Plus, with starting salaries averaging higher than public school teachers or police officers... calling them "C" salaries is stretching it a bit.
But technology careers are more volatile. When the economy goes bad, the demand for cops is even higher because idle people get into more trouble. And teachers have the protection of government policies and unions. Further, they get the summer off , have longer holiday periods, have good benefits and retirement packages. Teaching is usally more cushy and stable in comparison. And, cops don't need a college degree. Tech is a grind with Dilbertian bosses with limited upward mobility.
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:3, Insightful)
I can't speak for cops, but the teachers I've known over the last 20 years have it soooo easy:
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:3, Informative)
Errors with your points (my wife works in admin for school district):
1 - at least one PHB (or PhD) - First, not different every year. Only when change dictated by state. One PHB? You do realize that the principals almost always PhD's in education, not MBA's?
2 - endless mandatory meetings - No. Mandatory meetings are usually one per quarter, and they get the day and are paid travel. Every day is a blatent lie, plus it's not held in the county seat.
3 -
Annotations by a real classroom teacher... (Score:2, Interesting)
Yes, but a conversation allows for lateral moves, yes? In any case having criticized him for being off topic, you then engage him point by point. What's up with that?
Errors with your points (my wife works in admin for school district):
And so you get the party line from management, yes? So I thought I'd add a few remarks from a real teacher.
1 - at least one PHB (or PhD) - First, not different every year. Only when change dictated by state. One PHB? You do realize th
Teachers (Score:3, Informative)
1 - The principals are usually either lowly teachers (at most Masters-level graduates) or other random people that the school board happens to like. These people generally have no management skills or experience. Some of them don't know how to deal with the politics that can be avoided by lowly teachers. Some of them let the promotion go to their head and micromanage everything (after all they are the principal so they mus
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:3, Insightful)
Both the PhD and MBA are no guarantee of any knowledge, skills, or competence.
All they mean is that you passed some tests, took some classes, wrote a really long paper that no one will ever read, and you (may) have been subjected to an oral thrashing ordeal by several "esteemed" members of the faculty.
For your future elucidation, when pluralizing "PhD" or "MBA," use "PhDs" and "MBAs," respectively. Apostroph
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:5, Informative)
And isn't that the truth. I was a programmer and did DBA work for three years, until I switched to teaching. Because when IBM cuts 500 mainly tech jobs in your state, and you get laid off, and all your friends with more certs and coursework in programming than you get laid off, teaching starts to look damn good.
Once I get my lvl 2 teaching certification, it's pretty much as good as tenure. I have to majorly screw up to get fired. Like abuse a kid, or repeatedly come in under the influence. Compare that with my last tech job, when I got laid off RANDOMLY as part of a 5% reduction in salary/benefits costs. That's right - no performance based review, no cost/benefit analysis, a random (less managers and friends of the president) layoff. I had been there almost 3 years, but they laid off another worker who had been there LESS THAN TWO WEEKS.
As we say at school, this would be the best job in the world if it wasn't for the kids and the administration. Regardless of my bitching about school, I sure as hell don't miss my time in IT. And I have summers off to program and screw around back in IT land, while getting paid the whole time.
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:4, Informative)
On a side note, affirmative action is a bunch of BS and the way the powers that be train future H1-B labor. The truth is that in many schools, The over representation is actually from foreign students, particularly from Asia, strong H1-B candidates.
I was looking at some data for U of Washington, the place where they had the infamous "affirmative action bake sale." To make class populations representative of the population of the state, they would need to increase black students from 2.7% to 3.5%, hispanics by something similar, increase white students from 50% to 70%, and drop Asians (huge numbers from outside the US) from 30% to something like 6%.
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:3, Funny)
Where do you get the other 17%?
Affirmative action usually helps blacks and hispanics and women, and works against white and Asian males.
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:4, Funny)
Where do you get the other 17%?
MBAs. Nobody really wants to claim them as their own.
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:2)
My experience with international students (while working as staff in a dorm) was that they tended to have pretty uniform educational and class backgrounds. High middle or upper class, often educated at private schools in England (for former British colonies) or at a very small cross-section of schools in their own country. Well-traveled, and mostly "americanized" - or at least very Westernized - to begin with. Apparently, the folks who aren't half americanized already stay in th
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:4, Insightful)
It was *cheap* high-tech workers that they said were in short supply...
Wouldnt you complain if gas prices were very high?
They want low cost labor
Unfortunately, IT workers think that just because they wasted time in college
This is the essence of trade. If a carpenter labors for hours making a table with an intricate design and prices it at 1000 silver pieces, and a rival carpenter makes an ugly chair and prices it at 10 silver pieces, nobody is morally obligated to buy the more expensive chair.
This has been the essence of trade for milleniums.
If you are unable to provide value
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:3, Insightful)
And even if you get a work, you will earn less than people in the construction business.
So construction workers can and do earn more than college educated workers.
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:4, Interesting)
Construction workers often get overtime and since they are hourly it is PAID at 1.5X. Try asking your PHB for OT pay at your regular scale.
I had a cousin who dropped out of High School, went to work as an electrician, got his licenses, and made about $25/hour plus OT while I was in making 35K right out of school with a BSCS working 60 hour weeks as a Programmer. He went on to start his own business in electrical contracting and made a fortune then retired about 45.
So yea, construction can pay if you get into the skilled trades. Just being a Laborer is not going to do it though.
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:2)
I don't think that's entirely unfair, either. Construction workers do hard, often dangerous, manual labor in the hot sun. IT workers tend to sit in air conditioned offices, and the most physical exertion required is occasionally lifting a 19" monitor.
I'm not trying to downplay the importance of good IT workers, but I don'
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:2)
I think the point is the message we are sending to young people: drop out, work your way up in the trades, own your trade biz, get rich, and flip off poor programmers in your shiney lamberginee. That is hardly a way to motivate students to study harder.
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:2)
If they can find high tech. workers that want to work for peanuts, that's fine (realize that not all jobs can go to India; for example, mine will never be outsourced). Obviously, however, they're having a hard time doing that.
Labor costs to gas prices is a bad comparison, for a number
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:2)
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:2)
The only real solution is to abolish nations. Then both labor and capital could freely flow across the globe following each other. Until then, you better engage in politics to look after your own self interest.
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:2)
Not. Tarrifs and import fees in the US were around 35% for *most* of our history. When these tarrifs started going down the 70's, the wage differences between rich and poor started growing dramatically[1] and are reaching levels not seen since the 1920's. It appears that free trade benefits *only* the wealthy (who pay lots to lobby for more).
If other countries don't recepricate the trade (they usually don't), we should not give them a free ride at the expe
Re:Not a shortage of high-tech workers... (Score:3, Funny)
An interesting parallel (Score:2)
Since 9/11 however, things have tightened up at the border. The result is that now the farmers are crying about how they can't find farmworkers.
What they are really saying is that they can't find CHEAP farmworkers. There are plenty of people who are willing to work; just not at the wages that
Re:An interesting parallel (Score:2)
Well, it might be that they do not want to pay those wages, because Wal-Mart does not want to pay the extra cost when buying their produce. Wal-Mart does not want to buy the produce at the extra cost, because the customers do not like to spend that much.
So, do you want to spend twice the amount for food?
Shortage due to Schooling? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Shortage due to Schooling? (Score:5, Interesting)
Is this because the jobs really require such, or because if a company has access to the entire world's labor, they would hire PhD's to flip burgers if they could pay them what they pay a citizen. In otherwords, it is not a "need" but a possibility that is taken advantage of.
Normally companies don't do this with citizens because they feel "natives" would get too bored if they are overqualified. However, the perception is that foreign workers won't complain. This may be true because it is better than their alternatives in their native country. Third-world workers are obviously going to be less picky because they grew up with less. Plus, if they are picky, they can be replaced because there are 6 billion people on the planet. This makes it easier to find somebody willing to be exploited.
shortage? (Score:4, Funny)
Carnegie Mellon (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Carnegie Mellon (Score:2)
Despite what they may be telling you there, not every tech job is filled by someone from CMU.
Yes, that line was sarcasm and hyperbole. I hope they teach that there.
Yes, that was too.
Re:Carnegie Mellon (Score:2)
Yes, his (the parent of your post's) was too.
Re:Carnegie Mellon (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Carnegie Mellon (Score:2)
Dunno about the States... (Score:5, Interesting)
In Canada atleast, it doesn't feel like there's any shortage in tech workers. The salaries for new graduates keeps going down each year - eventhough the cost of living and the cost of education keeps going up every year.
Re:Dunno about the States... (Score:2, Interesting)
Many of us geeks would indeed consider that, with the flood of H1B's and Bushification of the political scene here. And, with global warming and putting on a few pounds over the years, the climate might be palettable now. Canada is kind of
Re:Dunno about the States... (Score:2)
The Canadian government is afraid of "brain drain", and rightfully so - a lot of their bright technical people are leaving for the U.S., because they can't find jobs in Canada in their chosen field. I left Canada six years ago to go to California, where I'm working as an embedded systems programmer. My
Switching fields may prove the shortage (Score:5, Interesting)
Personally, I know many people in my field of science who are doing other things because of the lack of academic jobs. Big pharmaceuticals and other corporations can use people with graduate degrees in almost any kind of science, because they have the statistical and/or logical toolkits that can be applied to other work. So these folks would be counted as doing work "outside their field of training", and are doing so because of "greater financial opportunities".
If anything, though, this doesn't mean there is a shortage of jobs for science and engineering degrees. It means that there are a shortage of people qualified to do trained statistics and problem-solving, and corporations are willing to pay a premium to raid surplus academics to get them.
--John [johnhawks.net]Comparative Advantage? (Score:3, Insightful)
Allegedly "innovation" is our comparative advantage, but are 5 Indians for the same price really going to have less total good ideas than one US citizen? This is an insult to other cultures and nations.
I am not sure what the US's comparative advantage is anymore. Cheesy advertizing and manipulative deal-making? It might be, but it is not something to be proud of.
Re:Comparative Advantage? (Score:5, Interesting)
Being a geek isn't just about your field, it's about having a true passion for what you do. It's when you've found the work in life that you love. An example of a famous geek is Richard Feynman. He was a physics geek. If you read his biography and lectures, it becomes readily apparant that he LOVES physics. He worked in the field for that reason alone, that he made money at it and became famous was secondary.
Well I find that by and large, the Indian students (I work for an electrical engineering department) are in it because it is percieved as a good job. They believe that engineering is really the only acceptable degree to get, and that with it they'll get a good job. I find the grad students are very similar. They should be in it for the love of learning, to do orignal research, but for most of them it's just more hoops to jump through so they can get a better job. The result is that they tend to be uncreative, and have difficulty applying their knowledge. They have lots of facts and forumlas memorized and are fine on the theory, but when it comes to real world problem solving, they are sunk on even simple tasks.
Now, as with all generalizations, this one is not a universal truth, there are some very, very smart Indian grad students. However I find that the majority Indian and Chinese students are not good critical thinkers, not good problem solvers, and not engineering geeks. They are in it to try and get a better job only. I find that the majority of American (north and south) and European grad students are in it for the love of learning. They have something they want to study and that's why they are here. Their critical thinking and problem solving tends to be much better.
I think it is cultural to a fairly large degree. A friend of mine is an CE grad, but now works in network support. He said that basically, engineering was the only option his family considered acceptable for him. He was going to unviersity, and he was going to be an engineer. Didn't matter what kind, but he was going to be an engineer. He's really not all that interested in it, hence he's working in something else right now (CE has almost nothing to do with network support).
To me it seems the US is much more open to doing what you want to do. You go to university and then you decide what you want to do. Many people even get degrees in unrelated fields, just general liberal arts degress, what an undergraduate degree used to be anyhow.
Personally, I think this is better. Not everyone is cut out to be an engineer any more than everyone is cut out to be an artist or musician. Many people can be engineers, if they struggle through the program, but that doesn't mean they should be, or that they'll be good at it.
The same is true of IT. Whenever I interview someone, I'm not actually trying to find out their computer knowledge. I really don't care all that much and I've already checked their resume. What I'm tyring to find out is if they are a computer geek. Do they like playing with computers? Do they like fixing them? Are computers something they really understand, or do they just have a lot of theoritical knowledge they can't apply? Those are the things I want to know. If the person's a geek and they can solve tech problems, the rest isn't that important. You can be trained in new things, but having an affinity for something just seems to be something you are born with.
So the US may indeed still have an innovative advantage. If we encourage people to follow their dreams, and encourage creative thinking, that helps produce people who are better at what they do. Sheer numbers don't matter. Ask any competent software producer what's better: One really good programmer that loves to program and can problem solve or 10 code monkeys. They'll all tell you they'd take the good programmer.
Re:Comparative Advantage? (Score:4, Interesting)
I so utterly, totally, and completely agree! How many people in their figure out what they are really passionate about, and then get a chance to do it professionally?
So much of our training a la public schooling was to focus on our weak points - if we excelled at math, but were weak with Language Arts, what were we made to invest our time into? Math? Not.
How much easier life would be if, when assessed for our weaknesses, they focused instead on our strengths? As in "Well, your language arts competence is passable, but your math scores are out of this world! Let's talk about math, since it is very possibly something you love doing... "
What if we focused on doing the stuff that's easy for us, that we ENJOY doing, instead of focusing on our areas of weakness? Now much self-confidence would we get, knowing that we were blessed with a particular strength found useful by others, rather than knowing we can't do Language Arts to "standard"?
Our public education system is clearly and specifically engineered to produce quiet, obedient, non-questioning factory workers - except that the factory worker of the 19th century is extinct. We should be working instead to foster alternative education strategies, since the classroom environment has failed so well.
Re: geekiness vs grade inflation? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Comparative Advantage? (Score:2)
Re:Comparative Advantage? (Score:3, Interesting)
but are 5 Indians for the same price really going to have less total good ideas than one US citizen? This is an insult to other cultures and nations.
You're asking the wong question. Firstly, you assume that the high price of US engineers somehow exists in a vacuum. Fact is, those engineers need somewhere to sleep, food to eat, and loans to repay (college ain't cheap). Indians are cheap because all that other stuff is cheap and their standard of living reflects it. If you wish to make the US into a third
Re:Comparative Advantage? (Score:3, Insightful)
It's because corporations are competing with others that are getting third world rates. It's not like US companies are the only ones in the world. As long as the US consumer only cares about the bottom line (cheapest price possible), the corporations have no choice but to care about the bottom line.
Re:Comparative Advantage? (Score:2)
Umm, isn't that called capitalism?
Yes, and that's why we don't organize this country around pure capitalism. It erodes the middle class and benefits only a few.
Have you tried to think as someone who has come to the US of A as an immigrant worker?
Are you suggesting that India will accept me with open arms should I decide to run off there and get a job? Everything I've seen says that India is protective of its job market, much more so than the US. This means that you end up with companies that can eas
Vdare.com is a racist site (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm surprised they manage to get a front page story on Slashdot.
If Industry needs us it should pay us (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm almost finished with my Masters in ECE, but it's been a rather large financial sacrifice. Of course, I started on my Master's degree when the economy was in the tank and there really weren't any engineering jobs to be had anyway. In the last year that situation has started to change and more jobs are out there. I've thought about going on for a PhD, but after 3 years of paying for my Master's I really need to go out and work for a few years.
We hear a lot from the likes of Gates and Groves about how their respective companies (Microsoft and Intel) need more people with advanced degrees and then bemoaning the fact that Americans aren't going to school to get those advanced degrees. Well, the big problem is money. When you finish your Bachelor's degree these days you've got a pretty good amount of school loan debt to pay off so you go to work in industry (and going to work in Industry right after getting your Bachelor's is a good thing IMHO: it gives you much needed real world experience you wouldn't get if you just continue straight away to grad school). After a few years you've got a house, cars, a spouse and maybe a kid or two. At this point going back to grad school is very difficult, you take a huge financial hit by doing so.
So, if industry really wants more PhD's then they should put their money where their mouth is and fund more of us. A lot of us would be more than willing to work on a doctorate if we knew that we would be able to make it financially if we did go back to school. Companies should offer funding in exchange for a commitment to work for the company for X number of years after finishing the degree. The funded student would also agree to work perhaps part time or during the summers at said company. Funding should include health insurance - this is a must; how is someone who has a house, spouse and kids going to be able to get by without health insurance.
I really don't buy the whole idea that the reason we don't get enough applicants for advanced degrees is because of poor highschool education levels in the US. You don't go directly from highschool to an advanced degree. Usually you get a bachelor's first and then (as I've suggested above) you work in industry for 5 or 10 years and then consider getting a Master's or PhD - this is often the way it works. Besides, having that 5 or 10 (or more) years of real-world experience and then going on to grad school makes you much more valuable than someone who goes directly to grad school after the bachelor's degree.
Re:If Industry needs us it should pay us (Score:2)
Re:If Industry needs us it should pay us (Score:2)
Why do you say that? My employer offers 75% education reimbursement (100% after 5 years: tuitions, fees, and books) but if my employment is terminated within something like 12 months, I have to pay it back.
How is that different?
Re:If Industry needs us it should pay us (Score:2)
Re:If Industry needs us it should pay us (Score:2)
Indentured servitude is illegal in this country. The company would have no recourse if you just walked off with your degree and refused to work for them. So they aren't going to offer such a deal.
Even if they could force you to hold up your end of the bargain, what is their recourse if you fail to get the degree?
Re:If Industry needs us it should pay us (Score:2, Informative)
Re:If Industry needs us it should pay us (Score:2)
couldn't they underwrite a, say, 5-year loan and then pay on that loan for as long as you worked for the company?
Yes, yes they could. They could also offer to pay off all student loans on your 5th anniversary, or even every 5 years (get more degrees). Unfortunately, most places don't want to pay.
Re:If Industry needs us it should pay us (Score:2)
Re:If Industry needs us it should pay us (Score:2)
Re:If Industry needs us it should pay us (Score:2)
Even if they could force you to hold up your end of the bargain, what is their recourse if you fail to get the degree?
Err... make you pay it back? Indentured servitude isn't the same thing as working, for pay, and having your company pay for your school provided you continue working there for X amount of time.
Re:If Industry needs us it should pay us (Score:2)
Indentured servitude is illegal in this country.
Yes, but the government can always bend the rules:
DHS Graduate Fellowship [orau.gov] requirements:
Re:If Industry needs us it should pay us (Score:2)
I got a scholarship from Honeywell while an undergrad. Many companies provide scholarships for undergrads with no strings attached. They also provide grants for grad students, with only the limitation being the specific research (no need to join the company after graduation).
Companies should offer funding in exchange for a commitment to work for the company for X number of years after finis
Re:If Industry needs us it should pay us (Score:2)
Computer Science graduate degrees are different (Score:2)
Re:Computer Science graduate degrees are different (Score:2)
Find different schools or a different approach to applying. If there's not a mechanism for accepting your experience in lieu of "how do compilers work 101" then they're probably not that great a school. If they are good schools, but you're hearing that from them admissions office, you might also try approaching some faculty directly and talking to them a few times (over time) about
Re:If Industry needs us it should pay us (Score:2)
Perhaps go to an Indian university: it is about 1/7 the cost. US universities couldn't be afraid of less-expensive 3rd-world competition; after all, they are one of the biggest lobbyists for visa workers.
You see, when free trade fucks somebody else and they balk, you dismiss them a
Actually, the numbers suggest there is a shortage (Score:2)
"Analysis" is only skin deep (Score:5, Insightful)
I find this "analysis" superficial and self-serving. A vocal segment of the high-tech community, including, evidently, the author of this piece, is protectionist and consistently opposes higher visa limits for foreign workers. I, personally, think this is short-sighted; I think continued immigration of the best and brightest from the rest of the world is a positive for the US. But that's not what I'm criticizing in the report.
The author attempts to argue that American students are becoming more interested in engineering, and that foreign students are less so, based on the enrollment numbers into US graduate programs, and thus we don't need more foreign workers. From my experience as a professor, I offer an alternate explanation:
I feel this "analysis" is far from objective; the Hudson Institute, a far-right think tank, evidently has quite the axe to grind with immigration (just as they do with Social Security and organic foods).
Re:"Analysis" is only skin deep (Score:2)
Some of the most damning data that I saw was IT employment and H1-B visa data for the state of Connecticut for 2003. 78,000 IT workers in Connecticut were layed off that year. But that very same year, employers in Connecticut requested (and got) 68,000 more H1-B visa slots allotted to t
Re:vaporware (Score:2)
Supply and demand, simple as that. Resident tuition is also generally remarkably lower than non-resident tuition. Most legislatures demand that the state's colleges charge "full price" tuition to non-residents. Because resident tuition is cheap, cost of living has a higher probability of being cheap, more in-state students apply for limited supply of enrollment slots. Because $$$ then isn't a limiting factor, schools have no choice but to make resident enrollment
Re:"Analysis" is only skin deep (Score:2)
Extremely Biased Site? (Score:3, Informative)
For one thing, this tells alot about the poster of article.
What IF we started linking to KKK sites... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Extremely Biased Site? (Score:2, Insightful)
Finally, the truth (Score:4, Informative)
I hate to seem pessimistic, but this article is long overdue, and at the same time, disturbing. We are flooding the market with ambitious bright individuals with promises of great prestige and fortune.
I really think they need to make a "Sims:The rise to professor" game depicting the rather long and gruesome journey to professorship. It would have to be realistic, so on average, you should only be winning, say, 5% of the time. Most people don't realize how different the actual and perceived opinion of prospective graduate students is from the actual reality of academia. I'm actually quite surprised that only 4-5% of Ph.D's are working outside their field (mind you, this figure doesn't include people that wanted to be in academia but couldn't get a position and ended up in industry). Sadly, I know a few that are working in simple jobs as security guards.
(And before someone jumps down my throat saying that I am bitter because I had a bad experience--I actually haven't. However, I know many more that have, and while I can't empathize (as much) with them, I certainly sympathize).
Re:Finally, the truth (Score:2)
I think that number is off... (Score:3, Interesting)
Sounds like someone is off by an order of magnitude?
Where have all the smart geeks gone? (Score:4, Interesting)
I sure hope everyone elses experience with their IT departments is better than mine. It just seems that the longer I hang around the worse the IT personnel have become. I don't believe the shortage of IT workers can be determined by university registrations as many are no longer working in the industry because they became disgruntled and found they could do other things for similar or more money and be much happier at it while getting their geeky IT fill on their friends and relatives PC's and home networks. The only shortage in the IT industry is in the salary, benefits, and respect afforded those willing to work in IT who have the knowledge to actually handle what's going on and manage a business' IT infrastructure.
Re:Where have all the smart geeks gone? (Score:2)
Re:Where have all the smart geeks gone? (Score:3, Insightful)
They're going to say that because more than likely their department is 50% understaffed, 70% undertrained and 95% underpaid. (That is, 95% of the workers in their IT department are underpaid.) I think if you ask the average IT worker, they'd say they'd love to support more things that their end users ask for. The problem is that support
Garbage anylsis (Score:3, Informative)
Furthermore, the only calls for "high tech workers" I've seen is for computer programmers. And hey, what do you know
The poster also neglected to consider that a "shortage" merely means that there are fewer people available than positions are open -- ie: they failed to compare enrollement to changes in the number of available conditions. If enrollment had increased by 10%, but open positions increased by 30%, then there would still be a shortage.
Additionally, the pool of available workers IN the United States INCLUDES "foreign students." They've already got green cards, and don't count against the H1B quota cap.
Finally, the fact that we've got fewer foreign students reflects somewhat on the quality of education available here relative to wherever it is they're coming from -- meaning that workers here are losing some of their competative advantage relative to people educated in foreign countries.
The only thing this document does is counter the point the original poster is trying to make.
Re:Garbage anylsis (Score:2)
High tech != computers only. There are many "high tech" positions that have shortages because they aren't popular. Aerospace, Mat Sci, Chem E, Optical E. etc. The tech bubble focused on EE, and CE, so other science & engineering areas experienced shortages.
Additionally, the pool of available workers IN the United States INCLUDES "foreign students." They've already got green cards, and don't count against the H
Re:Garbage anylsis (Score:2)
I never said it was. Look at all of the articles talking about a tech worker shortage. They're all talking about a shortage of computer programmers.
There are many "high tech" positions that have shortages because they aren't popular. Aerospace, Mat Sci, Chem E, Optical E. etc. The tech bubble focused on EE, and CE, so other science & engineering areas experienced shortages.
BWHAHAHAHA
Right and wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
Why the difference?
Simple - your doctor or lawyer, almost by the definition of their job, must be local. They are relatively immune to competition from foreigners. This is not true for scientists, who right now are most definitely competing with very able Chinese, Indians, etc.
That being said, the usual panic cry of "keep out the foreigners" is also wrong. Each and every American scientist is competing with each and every foreign scientist in his or her field. This is true regardless of who hires them or where they work. Which do you think is best for America?
1: An American company hires the Chinese scientist, sponsers his visa and brings him to the US.
2: An American company hires the Chinese scientist, but the scientist works in the company's Chinese division.
3: A foreign company hires the Chinese scientist, and employs him overseas.
I hope you realize the first option is the best. There is nothing the government can do to stop the competition created by these new scientists, and nothing it can do to prevent wage deflation because of it. It should give up trying.
If, for national security reasons or some other random excuse, the government feels it important to have lots of native-born scientists, it will have to tackle the problem at the graduate level. Asking talented 22-30 year olds to slog through 6+ years of 70h weeks for a wage topped by the guy cleaning the toilets, while a lawyer is making $75k at age 25, is pure silliness. Making graduate school less financially miserable would be a start. Of course, it is too late for me.
Re:Right and wrong (Score:3, Insightful)
Americans want to get paid too much, want too many frivolous benefits like health insurance with low copay, 401K with nice employer match, etc. It is usually not the wages that hurt American employees, it's how management feels about benefits. Most people on slashdot have never worked for a company where they start out part-time, with this Golden Ring of working full-time, only to finally toil long enough to make it to full-time, and then REALLY get treated like a p
Re:Right and wrong (Score:3, Insightful)
Asking talented 22-30 year olds to slog through 6+ years of 70h weeks for a wage topped by the guy cleaning the toilets, while a lawyer is making $75k at age 25, is pure silliness.
But that's what the market seems to demand, and America (the US) economy is ruled by the market. Other countries don't necessarily have this restriction in their education systems. Add to this the change in the US's business philosophy from "can do" to "can manage", and there's a problem.
The following is a generalization: Th
Re:Right and wrong (Score:2)
As I have noted on slashdot before, as of right now, there is no reason for an American to pursue a PhD in science or engineering. The same person will make much more money as a doctor or lawyer, for example.
Deciding on a career based on how much money you expect make is just wrong. Would you want to be treated by a doctor who got into the field so he could live in a big house? Would you want to be defended by a lawyer who crammed for the bar exam so he could buy himself a sports car? Like so many other
Corporate Credibility? (Score:3, Insightful)
--
Len of Len Corp.
microsoft doubles its India operations (Score:2)
There is a shortage! (Score:2)
I can tell you from our own company experience, and having dealt with our vendors and customers, there IS DEFINITELY A SHORTAGE.
We're not talking about a shortage of "cheap" labour. We're talking about a shortage of QUALIFIED labour. There are still a ton of so-called "engineers" out there who should never, ever have been hired in the first place (and I have no idea how they graduated). I've talked
Quantity != Quality (Score:2)
What about undergraduate? (Score:2)
Re:Well Duh (Score:2)
No. They said workers. Reading Slashdot is not work....
Re: I read that as 4%? (Score:3, Interesting)
you can see some statistics (including production vs time) here: http://www.aip.org/statistics/trends/emptrends.ht
Chemistry probably produces more, and Biology/Biochem even more than that.
Re:If US degrees were worth a damn... (Score:2)
I guess that's why at my last job I, who holds a high school diploma and nothing more, was consistently having to go back and fix driver code written by an Indian H1B with a M.S. because he couldn't seem to get his head around how interrupts needed to be handled by the hardware. He also couldn't seem to understand how to read sc
Re:If US degrees were worth a damn... (Score:4, Interesting)
For contrary views see the survey of higher education in the current Economist [economist.com] and this story [guardian.co.uk] in the Guardian.
I have often heard the complaint that 'kids these days' aren't getting the same quality of education that was offered of yore. I tutor high school students in math and chemistry and I work as a programmer in a laboratory full of grad students. My experience is that the good students are getting at least as good an education as I received 25-30 years ago. However, this may be obscured by the huge numbers of students who are going on to college (see Sturgeon's Law [jargon.net]). Personally, I am pleased to see so many people getting a shot at higher education, even if many of them don't get all the benefit they could from it.
Re:If US degrees were worth a damn... (Score:2)
Re:Hasn't it been proven that the myth of a shorta (Score:2)