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Monad Shell Removed From Vista

Posted by Zonk on Fri Aug 05, 2005 06:22 PM
from the easy-come-easy-go dept.
Microsoft Security IT
hggs writes "According to Stephen Toulouse at Microsoft, because of the possible virus threat that targets Monad the shell will not be included in Windows Vista. CNet is reporting that, even though Monad is not to be included on Vista, it will be included on a major server operating system for servers from Microsoft. Codenamed Longhorn server, that edition is due out by 2007." Update: 08/06 04:45 GMT by Z : As Mr. Toulouse states here, the submission here adds one and one and gets three. Monad hasn't been in Vista for about two months. The CNet article is clarifying a previous report stating that Monad could potentially be the first source of viruses in an OS which incorporated it. The interesting news about Monad in the server edition was obscured by the factually incorrect submission, which at first blush seemed to make sense. Mea Culpa.
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[+] Microsoft PowerShell RC1 548 comments
rst+ack writes "Microsoft has released RC1 version of PowerShell the .NET-based shell with perl-like syntax previously known as Monad or MSH. PowerShell (PS) has been covered a few times on Slashdot. Contrary to cmd.exe and Unix/Linux shells it operates on objects, not text when passing data between scripts and executables. Easy access to .NET classes allows users to create quite advanced solutions in short time. PS won't be shipped with Vista or Windows Server 2007 but it will debut with Exchange 12."
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  • Damn, how long will they delay all of these MEGA-AWESOME MUST BUY features? Are they really so incompetent?

    • Re:Slide more and more... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by sH4RD (749216) on Friday August 05 2005, @06:28PM (#13254641) Homepage
      You do realize that many of the features in Longhorn/Vista (most importantly WinFS) were due for Windows NT 3.x? The creators of NT were way before their time, but typical Microsoft screwed everything up. If Windows NT 3.x had the features originally planned, I don't think Windows would nearly suck as much as it does now. Instead they have spent 10 years trying to add the features that were supposed to be there in the first place. Imagine where we could be instead. A world where Microsoft might actually not suck. But instead here we are, wishing Longhorn/Vista had all those nice features that would make our experience with Windows (face it, you can't escape from it all the time) a little nicer. Those "MEGA-AWESOME MUST BUY features" have been delayed so long that I'm sure Microsoft doesn't mind leaving them out for later.

      • If only it was VMS... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by mechsoph (716782) on Friday August 05 2005, @07:03PM (#13254916)
        Considering that NT is, theoretically the successor to VMS, it sure is lame.

        Where's our versioning file system? Where's our ironclad clustering? (Someone who's a real VMS geek can probably offer more examples)

        Micrsoft hires Dave Cutler, who wrote VMS, and a bunch of the DEC engineers, has them write a brand spankin' new OS to Rule Them All, and they try to sell some retarded crapheap that doesn't have some of the best features of the '80's.

        Of course, the perfectly sensible reason they're selling a crapheap is that performance mattered more than a secure microkernel architecture (which NT, at one point, supposedly was), and backwards compatability with win32 is the only thing keeping people running to back to MS like a crackhead to his dealer.

        Give me my good 'ol 70's Unix. The '80's died, and the 90's just won't.
        • Someone who's a real VMS geek can probably offer more examples

          I've been away from VMS too long to call myself a real geek, but what I miss most when I'm using other OSs is the consistency.
          Commands mean what you think and work the way you expect. The Procedure Calling Standard makes coding in different languages a breeze. The versioning file system saved my arse more than once too...
          And of course, there was always EDT..

          Trouble is, most of that sort of stuff is the result of solid design, and can't just be ported over. Adding a clever command shell to Windows is a good step, and from what I've seen, Monad has potential to be a very clever CLI, but it's resting on a system which was never designed to be as solid as VMS.

          I've heard Longhorn/Vista described as the result of a collision between VMS and OSX Tiger, and while there's an element of truth there, I'd say the bits that survived the impact aren't the ones which make VMS so rock solid.

      • Re:Slide more and more... (Score:5, Funny)

        by sharkey (16670) on Friday August 05 2005, @08:10PM (#13255316)
        A world where Microsoft might actually not suck.

        Ahhh, a world where Microsoft makes vacuum cleaners.

      • According to Leibniz, Monads have no windows [rbjones.com].

        But now Windows seems less and less likely to have Monad.

        What was MS thinking? Windows and monads just don't mix.

    • BOGUS STORY SUBMISSION (Score:5, Informative)

      by bonch (38532) on Friday August 05 2005, @07:28PM (#13255053)
      Here, read the linked article yourself. The submission says the reason for Monad's removal is the previous Slashdot story about the proof-of-concept "virus." But the article has no mention of that and merely points out that Monad won't be in Vista, which we knew months ago. The submitter made the connection up:


      A virus for Windows Vista? Wrong.

      Hi everyone, Stephen Toulouse here. There's been some commentary the past couple of days regarding a potential Windows Vista virus and we wanted to weigh in with some details. First of all, in examining the details of the reports, there is no Windows Vista virus described in them. Instead, the reports are regarding potential proof of concept viruses in the form of malicious scripts that are developed to affect a new interactive shell codenamed "Monad", which is currently in early phase of beta testing.

      Now to be clear, these reports pose no risk for Microsoft customers. The viruses do not attempt to exploit a software vulnerability and do not encompass a new method of attack. Furthermore, "Monad" is not widely available for general use. It's a beta, and we do not recommend or support the use of beta software in a production environment. Microsoft continues to analyze the feedback from testers as Monad continues to be developed.

      But most important, "Monad" is not included in the beta release of Windows Vista or in Windows Server 2003 R2.

      Monad will not be included in the final version of Windows Vista and there is no relation between Monad and Windows Vista Beta 1. Monad is being considered for the Windows Operating System platform for the next three to five years. So these potential viruses do not affect Windows Vista or any other version of Windows if "Monad" has not been installed on the system.

      It's hard to predict what type of malicious software criminals might develop to attack future versions of operating systems. But rest assured we're on the case! The MSRC will be here to investigate and provide the guidance to help protect customers no matter what attacks may impact customers.

      • MOD PARENT UP (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Uber Banker (655221) * on Friday August 05 2005, @07:40PM (#13255121)
        The article was factually incorrect, even though it linked to correct articles, cited in the parent post. This 'story' seems no more than a waste of everyone's time, yet the submitter that pointed this out is (presently) modded down to -1.

        Read up: MS isn't 100% bad. They have some good stuff and good policies sometimes. Don't complain about them point blank to improve your ego, you'll be the kid that called wolf too many times.
        • "Read up: MS isn't 100% bad. They have some good stuff and good policies sometimes. Don't complain about them point blank to improve your ego, you'll be the kid that called wolf too many times."

          Mmm. Interesting philosophy. I wonder if I can apply to other things... Let me try.

          Jeffrey Dahmer isn't 100% bad. He does have some good qualities and does good things sometimes. Don't complain about him point blank to imrove yoru ego, you'll be the kid that called wolf too many times.

          Hey that works pretty good.

  • FP (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Microlith (54737)
    Yet another feature stripped from the next release of Windows.

    I guess microsoft figures that only people who spend several thousand for a computer deserve even moderately capable tools.

    Oh well. More and more reason to not bother upgrading, and gear towards an eventual switch to Linux someday.

    • Re:FP (Score:5, Funny)

      by Nuclear Elephant (700938) on Friday August 05 2005, @06:47PM (#13254806) Homepage
      So that leaves Vista with the following features I guess:

      - Slick 'Vista' wallpaper
      - DRM to protect the wallpaper

      Rock on!

      • Re:FP (Score:3, Informative)

        by falsified (638041)
        Insightful? Microsoft isn't using it as an excuse. MSH wasn't ready for release by the time Vista will be. One has nothing to do with the other. Monad's insecurity was to be expected since it's still in alpha or maybe early beta. Therefore, it's not being released.

        As an aside, am I the only person who likes what he sees so far as MSH goes?

  • Poster Wrong. (Score:5, Informative)

    by AdroitOneX (711013) * on Friday August 05 2005, @06:24PM (#13254591)
    I RTFA and it does not even imply that MONAD will not be included in Windows Vista because of the virus threat. In fact, MS announced almost two months ago [slashdot.org] that Mondad will not be included in Windows Vista (then Longhorn).
  • Remove the capability of the command line for home users, but leave a buggy and insecure shell for servers where hackers can have lots of fun messing up enterprise level websites!
  • Microsoft has decided to not release Windows Vista at all this year.
    • Um, hate to spoil your attempt at humor, but it is supposed to come out 2nd half of next year. This isn't new information. One of the senior guys in an interview accidentally leaked the holiday season as the target for it.
      • No, no, no -- Gonad is the Free reimplmentation being developed by the guy that works on GNOME and Mono.

        Incidentally, how do you pronounce "MSShell?" Is it "Michelle" like the Beatles song, "mis-sel" as in ICBM, or "MS Hell" as in what happens when you use Windows?
  • Although it's been proven that it's a common vulnerability in *all* shells, there's something to be said about the average windows user.

  • Idea (Score:5, Funny)

    by sneakers563 (759525) on Friday August 05 2005, @06:25PM (#13254608)
    You could build a pretty good operating system from all the stuff that's been pulled out out Vista. Maybe Microsoft could take all that extra stuff and come out with a "Platinum" version of Vista; call it "Longhorn" or something.

  • We get the point... (Score:5, Funny)

    by ItsJustLilOldMe (849627) on Friday August 05 2005, @06:26PM (#13254619)
    "it will be included on a major server operating system for servers

    Welcome to the department of redundancy department...

  • If MS starts removing components that have the potential to be exploited by a virus, does that mean that IE has be removed too? ;) I guess the next version of Windows will be Dos!

  • Dear God MORON... (Score:5, Informative)

    by Manip (656104) on Friday August 05 2005, @06:27PM (#13254632)
    Mohad was NOT in Vista before all this sudo-virus junk appeared. It was taken out MONTHS ago! Microsoft have been saying for MONTHS that it will not appear in Vista but WILL appear in Longhorn Server.

    Now some attention seekers claim they created a virus, which is no more powerful than anything you could currently do in VBScript and gets headlines. Now you link to a blog that says "There is no virus threat [TRUE!] and Mohad will not be in Vista [TRUE]" and conclude that A == B?! Dear god you people!

    • Re:Oh hush up! (Score:5, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 05 2005, @07:58PM (#13255241)
      I wish you and your rational-thinking ilk would get the hell off slashdot. You're ruining all our M$ bashing and hot-buttoned emotionalism!

      I think I speak for the majority of slashdot when I say we are here to be told what to think, not to think for ourselves.
  • People will be arrested for distributing Vista Binaries when they DON'T run p2p applications on their computers.

    I have become enlightened.
  • I looked at the article that reported this so called virus earlier and all I have to say is it has been blown out of proportion. I had guessed that whoever wrote the "virus" hasn't had much exposure to other shells like BASH because writing a simple BASH script to destroy files is trivial.

    The only way that these shells, which give a lot of flexibility and power to their users, are going to work is if there is a decent permission system to keep the bad scripts from doing any real damage. If they haven't do

  • Just what we needed (Score:5, Funny)

    by thirty2bit (685528) on Friday August 05 2005, @06:32PM (#13254681)
    Quick - somebody find vulnerabilities in the WPA and DRM modules. Bonus if you find buffer overflows in the "make Windows unstable" DLLs.

  • We're told that yet another feature won't be present in Windows Vista by someone who seems to think that there won't ever be a virus capable of penetrating Vista's "security". These Microsoft guys crack me up!

    ...What do you mean he wasn't joking?

  • I thought it was already pulled a few weeks ago because they couldn't have it ready in time. Now they are saying they are pulling it because there are hacks against it??? Geesh.

    Windows who? IMO

    LoB

  • The summary couldn't have been more inaccurate! (Score:5, Informative)

    by xiphoris (839465) on Friday August 05 2005, @06:36PM (#13254715) Homepage
    A clue should've been the title of the article linked to [technet.com]: "A virus for Windows Vista? Wrong."

    From TFA:
    "First of all, in examining the details of the reports, there is no Windows Vista virus described in them. ...The viruses do not attempt to exploit a software vulnerability and do not encompass a new method of attack."

    If one had read either of the two articles linked, one would realize that the so-called "viruses" are nothing more than malicious scripts. No software hole is exploited; the viruses are no more dangerous than any arbitrary piece of code running on your system.

    They are not viruses; they only have the privileges that a user gives them. They're the same as any other executable file.

    If a stranger sends you an executable, be it a script or a compiled program, and you run it, you're already in trouble. These scripts are nothing special.

    Did the article author even read what he was submitting? The author states, "because of the possible virus threat that targets Monad the shell will not be included in Windows Vista", which could not be more deliberately misleading, and is contracted by both articles he links to!

  • I guess they've really castrated it now... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Zocalo (252965) on Friday August 05 2005, @06:38PM (#13254731) Homepage
    All of the promised new and potentially interesting "pillars" of Longhorn/Vista have been snipped, and now they have cut the promised wonder-shell from the consumer version too? The only thing left that Vista now seems to offer over XP is a new interface theme and the probabilty that you will also need a new PC in order to meet it's realistic hardware requirements. I could get all of that right now without the hardware upgrade using any of several Windows desktop "enhancement" tools. Oh, and IE7, which will also be available for XP anyway for those who haven't already switched over to Firefox or Opera. Seriously, is there *anything* else in Windows Vista that I might actually want to upgrade for?

    Is this really the best response that Microsoft can come up with at a time when there is so much increased dissatisfaction with their endless upgrade cycle? If it is, then the F/OSS communities should probably increase their efforts to target the corporate desktop, because Microsoft doesn't appear to have anything of substance for several years! I'll bet Steve Jobs is laughing too; he's certainly picked the right time to go through the traumas of switching architecture.

  • Monad was not going to be shipped with Vista since the announcement of Vista. Read something about it on PCMagazine.com.

    Also, this [pcmag.com] story also states the same thing.

    Also, it's not the shell that is insecure....it's the fact that most Windows users are still, to this day, forced to run as administrator to run some random programs that you shouldn't need Admin rights for either. Also, these same users do not know better and also whine when they have to type in a password. You can't change behavior that has

  • Worst. Slashdot summary. Ever. (Score:4, Informative)

    by mcc (14761) <amcclure@purdue.edu> on Friday August 05 2005, @06:40PM (#13254754) Homepage
    Or at least the worst in several years. The blurb says basically the exact opposite of what the link says. May I suggest one of the /. editors add a little "update: the above is wrong in every way" to the end?
  • "/bin/sh has been associated with security problems in the Unix world since the early 70s. Most Unix/Linux security situations arise when an unauthorized user gets access to the /bin/sh process. Fedora Core 5, due out in October, will not include this dangerous executable. Instead users will control the system through the advanced Gnome windowing system and will be able to develop object-oriented network-transparent applications in the MONO framework."

    ----------
    mobile search [mwtj.com]

  • 10 great windows vista features (Score:5, Funny)

    by gullevek (174152) on Friday August 05 2005, @06:46PM (#13254791) Homepage Journal
    walked around the park.
    One was WinFS and fell into a hole.

    9 little windows Vista features walked around the park. The new shell slipped and fell into the pool and drowned.

    8 little windows vista features walked around the park. DRM bully came and whacked them all dead.

    No new Windows Vista features were left alive, so Microsoft put some new colors in and everybody bought it.

  • Wow is the headline WRONG! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by bjk4 (885) on Friday August 05 2005, @07:29PM (#13255056) Homepage
    I can't believe the slashdot editors let this submission go through. To quote the author:
    "First of all, in examining the details of the reports, there is no Windows Vista virus described in them."

    "The viruses do not attempt to exploit a software vulnerability and do not encompass a new method of attack."

    "...there is no relation between Monad and Windows Vista Beta 1."
    The author is pretty clear that the reported virii had ZERO effect on the choice to include monad or not.

    Yet somehow the submitter was able to conclude "...because of the possible virus threat that targets Monad the shell will not be included in Windows Vista.". Will wonders ever cease to exist!

  • Slashdot sensationalism overflow recently. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by AnalogBoy (51094) on Friday August 05 2005, @10:19PM (#13255952) Journal
    Slashdot has always been anti-microsoft, and in most cases zealously so, but this is just taking it too far. Many valid points are made here, but if the community wants to keep its self-respect, it makes no sense to allow blatantly inflammatory and untrue stories to come across the front page like this. I am a beta tester for Monad. it is nothing special - wmic + cmd + more scripting abilities. msh is not ready for prime time. I can't honestly believe that we're now bashing microsoft in the damned if they do damned if they don't way. They don't release it because it's not ready - the bastards can't write a program! They do release it and it's not up to snuff. Damn them! They released more faulty software!

    I understand the nature of slashdot. I used to be one of the linux zealots prowling the area. I read the front page and, very rarely, the articles. Not quite sure what made me do it this time. But letting disinformation such as this leak to the front page scares me, when useful stories from people are ignored all the time.
    • Yeah, i guess you're right. There shall be no sh on my servers! The so-called vulnerability is only the consequence of the fact that *gasp*, when you execute a shell script, the script can modify files(!, etc etc).
    • The problem here is that NT has lacked a decent shell with scripting capabilities since the very beginning. The joke is that *nix has had them for decades, but in the 21st century, MS still can't do it.

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