Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments

News for nerds, stuff that matters

Slashdot Log In

Log In

Create Account  |  Retrieve Password

Meaningful MD5 Collisions

Posted by Zonk on Fri Jun 10, 2005 02:38 PM
from the bam-crash-boom dept.
mrogers writes "Researchers at Ruhr-Universität Bochum have found a way to produce MD5 collisions between human-meaningful documents. This could be used to obtain a digital signature on one document and then transfer it to another. The same technique is theoretically applicable to other hash functions based on the Merkle-Damgård structure, such as SHA-1." From the article: "Recently, the world of cryptographic hash functions has turned into a mess. A lot of researchers announced algorithms ("attacks") to find collisions for common hash functions such as MD5 and SHA-1 (see [B+, WFLY, WY, WYY-a, WYY-b]). For cryptographers, these results are exciting - but many so-called 'practitioners' turned them down as 'practically irrelevant'."
+ -
story

Related Stories

[+] SHA-1 Collisions for Meaningful Messages 128 comments
mrogers writes "Following on the heels of last year's collision search attack against SHA-1, researchers at the Crypto 2006 conference have announced a new attack that allows the attacker to choose part of the colliding messages. "Using the new method, it is possible, for example, to produce two HTML documents with a long nonsense part after the closing </html> tag, which, despite slight differences in the HTML part, thanks to the adapted appendage have the same hash value." A similar attack against MD5 was announced last year."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
 Full
 Abbreviated
 Hidden
More
Loading... please wait.
  • Common sense (Score:3, Insightful)

    by gtrubetskoy (734033) * on Friday June 10 2005, @02:40PM (#12783106) Homepage

    Unless I'm missing something, all these guys are doing is using a format that can contain an infinite amount of extraneous information that has no effect on how it's ultimately rendered, so same thing can be done with a .doc, or an HTML file, and this isn't really a cryptographic discovery of hash function weakness of any kind, just common sense for most of us - the secure hash algorithms should be applied to the English (or whatever language) textual contents of the document, no the source code of it, such as PostScript used in the article, PDF, HTML or whatever. I guess the most important lesson here is that this technique can be applied to binaries pretty easily as well.
    • Anything you hash together will ALWAYS result in collisions.

      Extracting the formatting and code from the document will just make it EASIER to create a duplication.

      "Hello World!" might match with "Hello World!!!!!! this is extra stuff"

      at least leaving the exact formatting instructions in gives you a chance that the collision which leaves a compatible file is much more difficult than the hash of the simple raw text.
    • and this isn't really a cryptographic discovery of hash function weakness of any kind

      It's an example of the hash collision weaknesses recently documented, giving a practical example of how it could be used for malicious purposes.

      Traditionally we haven't had to worry about nonsensical things like applying the hash only to easily verifiable English text, because the hash is supposed to practically protect against intentional searches for collisions.
    • On the contrary... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Chris Pimlott (16212) on Friday June 10 2005, @03:14PM (#12783520)
      This attack shows us all once again that there is that the procedures for using cryptography are as important as the mathematical theories and proofs on which cryptography is based. People like to believe that it's just the algorithm that's important, and once you have such an algorithm it's equally applicable to messages of all sorts and formats. As this shows, it's clearly not the case.

      You may believe it's common sense, but to the average user, encrypting a simple letter like the memos used in the article expressed as a Word document is no different than encrypting a simple text email. Heck, many of these users probably have no idea that much of the plain-looking email they send and recieve is actually HTML, which is capable of hiding beneath its rendered surface all sorts of additional information.

      When's the last time you saw an email program that read in a Word document, extracted just the plain text content, signed or encrypted it and then repackaged it into some new format in a cryptographically sound way that would automatically be reconstituted as a Word document on the other side? Most just have a handy "Sign" or "Encrypt" button that will happy accept .ps or .doc just as readily as a simple text file.
    • Re:Common sense (Score:4, Interesting)

      by iabervon (1971) on Friday June 10 2005, @03:30PM (#12783718) Homepage Journal
      Actually, the two documents are actually almost identical. The difference is only one block in the whole file, which essentially acts as a selector for which of the two sets of content is displayed. MD5 (like most hash functions) works on fixed-size blocks smaller than the average file. To hash a complete file, you hash the first block, feed that into the hash with the second block, feed that into the hash with the third block, and so forth. So they have two files, and the first blocks are the same, the second blocks are different but hash the same, and the rest of the files are the same. Of course, the second blocks are junk, but the postscript is expecting a block-sized arbitrary value at that point anyway, so it doesn't matter that there's junk there.

      So they are actually using a format that can contain an exact quantity of extraneous information that doesn't get rendered but entirely changes what does get rendered.

      The same thing could be done with PDF or doc, and executables, but not anything compressed (it won't decompress at all if a block is changed) and not HTML without javascript (there's no way to test which block of junk is included and show different results based on that).

      • Re:Common sense (Score:3, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Isn't this obivous if you check the file sizes?

        The files are the same size.

        The cksum comand (which uses a 32 bit CRC) spits out the checksum and a file size. Why doesn't md5sum do the same thing?

        It does - The file size is used as part of the MD5 hash. The MD5 algorithm hashes the file, then appends the file size and hashes that too. If it didn't do this then you could create an MD5 collision just by appending zeros to the file.
  • Anyone want to explain the real world applications of this to someone who is considering turning in his nerd credentials after being unable to get the gist of this from the write up...and please don't tell me to RTFA, this is after all /.!
    • Basically, they used a high-powered particle accelerator to create MD5 collisions between human-meaningful documents, thus forging the missing link between thermodynamic and informational entropy.

      I hope that clears things up.
    • by jjares (141954) on Friday June 10 2005, @02:56PM (#12783296) Homepage
      Basically, when you do an md5 for a string, you transform an existing text with a variable length to a fixed length string. Now, imagine the variable text is 200bytes long, but the fixed string is 20 bytes long, you are obiously loosing information, and that there may be a combination of 200 bytes that produce the same 20 byte sequence, but the amount of combinations in 20 bytes (160 bits) make it highly unlikely that you will find a repeated sequence. What this investingators found is a way to replicate this sequences. The problem being that usually we check integrity with this md5 hashes, so teoretically, someone could alter a text and produce a new one that seems (from the md5 hashes) identical to the first one. This is specially nice for putting backdoors in source code downloaded from the net, as we often check it against an md5 hash.
      • >teoretically, someone could alter a text and produce a new one that seems (from the md5 hashes) identical to the first one

        Not exactly. Not unless the attacker could choose the first text. The new attacks allow you to create two documents that collide, but don't (yet) allow you to take an arbitrary document and make another that collides with it.

        That word "yet" is important. A lot of bright crypto people will now start working on "preimage" attacks and they've got some new tools to work with. Be afraid
      • It bears mentioning that md5 doesn't account for the length of the file. So if someone were to try installing a backdoor into a program, and had a sophisticated enough piece of software using this method, comments, metadata, or other information could be used to 'pad out' the file to make it seem like the original -- even with source code files. Especially in the case of executables, they could just insert random crap at the end of an executable file, and make the md5 hash (and possibly the size) come out

        • It is actually not entirely true, that md5 (and sha1) does not account for the size of the file. Both md5 and sha1 use the same Merkle-Damgård structure, where the same function is applied to a running "total", initially an initialization vector, and a fixed-size block of the input. For both hashes, the blocks are 512 bits long, and the last block is padded and ends with the length of the file, as a 64-bit integer. So unless one of your files is extremely long, size is taken into account. Doesn't mean
    • If you don't know what a hash function is, then turn in your nerd credentials now.

      Basically, they provided an example case where one of these recent methods to generate hash function collisions can be turned into a "real world" attack.

      It's a very simple example case, but it demonstrates the point effectively. The point is that these recently discovered methods to generate collisions quickly are a real threat to any software using them as a method for digital signatures and such.

      The real world application
      • Download something critical, say, the current Linux kernel from kernel.org.
      • Insert a trojan/backdoor/whatever.
      • Manipulate the tar archive so the hashes match. This is the subject of TFA.
      • Somehow upload the trojaned kernel back to kernel.org.
      • Since the hashes for the original kernel and the trojaned kernel are identical, they both appear valid when checked against the signature.
      • ????
      • Profit!

      Before someone starts bitching about "lack of trust" in open source, please replace kernel with security update an

  • by Ckwop (707653) * <Simon.Johnson@gmail.com> on Friday June 10 2005, @02:42PM (#12783126) Homepage
    As an amateur cryptographer, I must say that labeling these attacks as 'practically irrelevant'
    is at the very least misguided and at worst a shocking display of incompetence.

    Stop the fixation with plain-text messages, most messages are not plain-text. Your average word document
    contains loads of invisible data that doesn't get rendered. Pdf's contain "junk" data that doesn't get rendered either. Would
    you notice a single bit difference in an MP3? Or a single pixel colour change in a jpeg? Hell, you can even do it in HTML <div style="visibility:hidden">Junk goes here</div>.
    Mark my words, people will find in the next couple of months find two meaningful computer
    documents that hash to the same value but are different byte-wise.

    People undervalue these attacks because the attacker has to generate the collision before hand to use it.
    To properly appreciate the power of these attacks consider the following senario.

    Imagine we're agreeing a contract of employement and I'm your employer.
    I give you the first word document that includes all the standard terms, however, I've also drafted
    a Word document that contains a load of draconian clauses like banning you from working in any IT position five years
    after leaving the company. By adding junk that doesn't render to both documents, I've managed to find to make the hash
    of the two documents collide. Thinking I'm a nice employer, you sign the first document, which you do by signing the hash of
    document. However, I now have your signature on BOTH documents. I now make sure the company IT system "forget" the first document
    and I've successfully screwed you.

    This is a human example, but there are other examples that apply in computer systems. The problem is that in many situations
    the attacker can choose when you encrypt. Say you encrypt your e-mail conversation with your friend using S/MIME, many people click
    "Reply" and the message body of the other persons method appears in the new message. Because of these attacks,
    It's now no certainty that an attacker couldn't use this fact to construct collisions that an attacker could use.

    As another security researcher said (paraphrased) It's like you're in building and you've just heard the fire alarm go off.
    You can't see smoke but it's time to make your way calmly to the exit. That sums up the position with SHA-1 and MD5. Swap out the primitives
    before you start seeing smoke.

    It's not like we don't have alternatives anyway. Whirlpool uses the same wide-trail design principles has AES. It's slower than MD-5 or SHA-1 but it's much better designed. And beside, people would do well to realise you have to spend CPU cycles to get security.

    Simon.
    • However, I now have your signature on BOTH documents. I now make sure the company IT system "forget" the first document and I've successfully screwed you.

      Er, only if you're stupid enough not to keep a copy of a document that you sign.

        • by deanoaz (843940) on Friday June 10 2005, @03:23PM (#12783634)
          If two documents exist with the same hash, then they were both produced by the same source, since there is no practical, known way of finding a collision without having control of the content of both documents. Therefore, your signed copy of the original document proves that the employer created both versions.
        • by Basje (26968) <bas@bloemsaat.org> on Friday June 10 2005, @03:33PM (#12783740) Homepage
          The one that makes the claim. In the above example you go to work for another employer. The malicous employer slaps you with the fraudulent contract _claiming_ you cannot do that.

          Then you whip out the original document. Presto: both documents have the same signature. Now it's up to the party making the claim to prove which contract was signed. Impossible.

          The reverse is also true: the programmer works on a super secret project. He signs a secrecy declaration. If he can apply the exact same signature to his lunch agreement, and walks out with the sourcecode, his employer is screwed, as per the example above.

          Etc. An agreement is legally binding in any form. The only reason to have a signed copy of any agreement (digitally or paper) is to have proof of the agreement. If the signature is no longer proof, no agreement rises above verbal agreements, evidence wise.
            • > Who'd have to explain things then?

              The "reasonable person" standard prevails. Remember, they have to explain the existence of that extra padding in the document. The jury, assuming it's composed of reasonable people ...

              sorry, had to take a moment. my co-workers are no doubt wondering what the hysterical laughter was about ...

              the jury is not likely to believe that you signed away your rights. Now if the employer's document specified a million-dollar signing bonus, then he pulled a switch on you to
    • I now make sure the company IT system "forget" the first document and I've successfully screwed you.

      Not quite, beacuse of reasonable doubt and the fact that the hypothetical employee would have copies of the document.

      However, Alice can get Bob to sign an innocuous recommendation letter that in the hidden version is a power of attorney for Bob's bank accounts. Alice can then take the fraudulent letter to Bob's bank and with apparent legality, take all of his money. (The difference being that a third part
      • How exactly could they create junk documents that also match the expected filesize.

        The collisions that have been found for MD5 are for pairs of documents that are the same size. The size constraint is not a problem.
          • Every time this comes up people mention the same idea - use two hashes for security!

            What people don't realize is that MD5 _IS_ two hashes already! That's how it works!

            To make it worse the hashes you mentioned MD5 and SHA-1 are based on exactly the same algorithm, so using it twice doesn't help you much.
              • Re:well... (Score:3, Insightful)

                substitute "the last bit of each byte" or "padbyte=rand(DVD-byte)" where rand() is a random-# generator and it's random enough.

                [Disclaimer: I'm not an expert at cryptography, but I like to think I understand it better than most non-mathematicians outside the field. It would be really nice if a crypto expert could clarify this, but I don't expect that to happen on Slashdot.]

                You are correct that your scheme would add some security, but not nearly as much as our intuition might lead us to believe.

                Let'

      • To do what these guys did, you need a format that can:
        • Contain "junk" data that is never displayed.
        • Contain two different "messages" only one of which will be displayed.
        • Be able to select which message to display based on the result of a calculation involving the junk.

        Microsoft Office and OpenOffice.org documents both can contain executable content which can execute when the document is opened, and which can alter the contents of the document.

        I am not very familiar with Microsoft Office, but in Op

  • See Schneier's Blog [schneier.com] for more thoughts on the subject. I am sure it will get fleshed out more as more details emerge.
  • If MD5 is found to be insecure, what are the alternatives we can use when signing our open-source packages? Is there any other alternative that is even approaching the widespread use of md5sum?
    • by specialbrad (884393) on Friday June 10 2005, @02:52PM (#12783243)
      The signing of open-source packages are to prevent download corruption usually. If a download is corrupted, the data will be different, and hence the hash will be different. Most of these attacks are malicious in that you have to go great lengths to find a collision to use. If your connection corrupts the download in such a way to produce a collision, your modem obviously hates you.
    • I may be wrong but I think that for that purpose, the use of MD5 is still quite secure. What those researchers did was make 2 files with the same MD5, they didn't choose the md5 value itself. In order to crack the schemes you're mentioning the md5 value is a given value for which you want to generate another file (many times with the additional restriction that the file sizes must match).

      Read about collision attacks versus preimage attacks here [cryptography.com].

      Unless you're assuming that at least one of the people respon
  • Text of Letters (Score:3, Informative)

    by pete-classic (75983) <hutnick@gmail.com> on Friday June 10 2005, @02:46PM (#12783172) Homepage Journal
    For those who can't convientently view PostScript files, the text of the two letters:

    Julius. Caesar
    Via Appia 1
    Rome, The Roman Empire
    Alice Falbala fulfilled all the requirements of the Roman Empire
    intern position. She was excellent at translating roman into her gaul
    native language, learned very rapidly, and worked with considerable
    independence and confidence.
    Her basic work habits such as punctuality, interpersonal deportment,
    communication skills, and completing assigned and self-determined
    goals were all excellent.
    I recommend Alice for challenging positions in which creativity,
    reliability, and language skills are required.
    I highly recommend hiring her. If you'd like to discuss her attributes
    in more detail, please don't hesitate to contact me.
    Sincerely,
    Julius Caesar

    Julius. Caesar
    Via Appia 1
    Rome, The Roman Empire
    May, 22, 2005
    Order:
    Alice Falbala is given full access to all confidential and secret
    information about GAUL.
    Sincerely,
    Julius Caesar
  • by swillden (191260) * <shawn-ds@willden.org> on Friday June 10 2005, @02:46PM (#12783179) Homepage Journal

    What these researchers did was not to improve the known attacks on MD5, but to demonstrate a clever way of turning the known attack, generally considered to be of theoretical interest only, into an attack that could potentially really be used.

    The way they did it was to create a postscript document that actually contains two documents, one that the sender would be willing to sign and one that he presumably would not. The full text of both is contained in the file, but near the beginning of the file is a bit of code that compares two blocks of random-appearing bits, call them A and B. If A == B, the postscript interpreter will select the innocuous message and display that. If A != B, the interpreter will display the other message.

    The researchers then generated a pair of blocks with the same MD5 hash. In one copy of the postscript file, they used one of these blocks as both A and B. In the other copy, they used one block as A and the other as B. Because every bit of both documents before and after the two blocks is identical, and because those blocks hash to the same value, the documents hash to the same value.

    It's an interesting attack. It only applies to documents that are also programs, in some sense, but we use lots of document formats that fit that description.

    A simple countermeasure that makes such an attack more difficult is to compress the documents before signing.

  • by StreetFire.net (850652) on Friday June 10 2005, @02:52PM (#12783248) Homepage
    Regarding being "practically irrelevant"

    "every time [some software engineer] says, 'nobody will go to the trouble of doing that,' there's some kid in Finland who will go to the trouble."
    Taken from Kevin' Mitnik's "The Art of intrusion"
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/sim-explorer/ explore-items/-/0764569597/0/101/1/none/purchase/r ef%3Dpd_sxp_r0/104-8074733-7395136 [amazon.com]
  • 7 bits difference (Score:3, Informative)

    by lavalyn (649886) on Friday June 10 2005, @02:55PM (#12783282) Homepage Journal
    Compare the two files, and you see that there were only 7 bits that changed, all on the 5th most significant bit of the affected byte.

    I guess it's obvious from looking at the ps file in text form, but if it's that easy to mangle postscript to display two different layers (or is it changing comments or pointers? I am not a binary postscript parser.) I still don't think it's time to throw md5 away yet. Six months.

    What other hashing alternatives are there these days? SHA-1 apparently has the same kinds of weaknesses.
  • We could just couple it with another widely used industry standard [rot13.com]
  • Okay, I'm impressed. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ave19 (149657) on Friday June 10 2005, @03:01PM (#12783348)
    At first I thought: Postscript! Well, obviously. To find a collision, you've probably got to hide a clump of randomness in the document, and then rotate that clump until the hashes collide. If you tried to hide random data in a text file, it would be obvious to the person signing it. You need some format to hide the random bits from the viwer.

    I bet the random parts are REALLY BIG! I mean, you'd probably need a lot of random data before you could find a collision...

    Then I downloaded the files...

    There's almost nothing to them! I can't read PS, so I'm not sure how many of that handful of bytes at the beginning might be tweakable... but it's a lot less than I expected.

    Collisions must be very easy to find! I am now offically very worried about this.
    • by yeremein (678037) on Friday June 10 2005, @03:55PM (#12784019)
      To find a collision, you've probably got to hide a clump of randomness in the document, and then rotate that clump until the hashes collide.

      That's actually not what they did. They generated two essentially random blobs of data that have the same hash. We'll call these X and Y. They then created a PostScript document containing BOTH messages, the one that Alice's boss would sign and the one he presumably would not sign. They inserted two copies of block X into one of these documents, and a one X and one Y into the other. The original document contained code that compared the two blocks, and if they were the same, caused one message to be rendered, or if they were different, caused the other message to be rendered. Thus both documents hash the same (since X hashes the same as Y), but you see different text when you view the files.

      This sort of attack would only work on documents that can contain code of some sort. It would not work on text files.

  • by malcomvetter (851474) on Friday June 10 2005, @03:01PM (#12783351)


    in my next big project?

    In all seriousness, I believe Schneier's right. We need a competition for a new hash function [schneier.com].

    Nah, let's just wait for 24 [techweb.com] to drop the words "MD5" before we know it's really bad.
  • by G4from128k (686170) on Friday June 10 2005, @03:02PM (#12783357)
    The core problem is that the resources of the defender are inevitably overwhelmed by the resources of the attacker.
    1. Relative expected values of gian vs. loss: The attacker thinks "I know I can gain a #BIG_NUM million dollars" and devotes their full effort to the attack. The defender thinks "I'm safe, there's a low probability, and I'm sure I'll catch the problem before it becomes real money, " and does not not devote effort to security becuase a Gartner report told him it was over-hyped. Thus, the attacker's perceived expected value is much higher than the defenders perceived expected loss and each invests accordingly.
    2. Rising Complexity: As IT systems become more complex, they become less secure. Each new device, new networking protocol, new physical layer, new OS feature, new networked application provides new opportunities for the attacker and a dilution of security resources for defenders.
    3. Time: The attacker has the advantage of time. New algorithms, new mathematical theories, new exploits, and faster processors all favor the attacker. What once was supposed to take the age of the universe to crack can be decrypted with a quickly declining number of networked (even zombied) PCs.
    4. Curse of Compatibility: Because so much crypto and security is networking related, it is subject to implementation delays caused by the need to be compatible. Defenders continue to use old, vulnerable systems to maintain compatibility with key partners. Patches don't solve the problem because the patch itself can introduce incompatibilities that make defenders leary of applying the patch with a very real chance of causing problems to avoid a hypothetical security issue.
    The bottom line is that the defender must protect all vulnerabilities while going about the day-to-day business of using the computer. In contrast, the attacker can devote full time to any weakness of their choice.
  • by erroneus (253617) on Friday June 10 2005, @03:03PM (#12783390) Homepage
    I forget where or when exactly, so please feel free to run a search if you care to... it was here on Slashdot though.

    There was talk about someone being able to foil P2P networks by seeding bad stuff through random data formulated to fit the MD5/SHA1 code from legitimate files shared on those networks. The consensus was that it was BS and that even if it weren't BS there could be updates to make such attacks more difficult or impossible to perform.

    Am I missing something or are these two stories relevant to each other?
  • Lenstra and others came up with a way to generate syntactically-correct X509 certificates that collide under MD5.

    Here's a link to the paper: Lenstra et al [iacr.org].
  • by rar (110454) on Friday June 10 2005, @03:19PM (#12783576) Homepage
    What I haven't seen mentioned yet, and people perhaps haven't realized, is that in providing these two postscript files, they have essentially provided you with an postscript signature exploit kit!

    All you need to do is download the two postscript documents and do *exactly corresponding edits* in both of them, and you get two documents saying different things and still have the same md5sums!

    I just tried exchanging Alice's name for my own, and surely it did work.

    Now, if they released a pdf-file hack, I would be genuinely worried :)...
          • by rar (110454) on Friday June 10 2005, @06:08PM (#12785423) Homepage
            It is the same document, just relying on differences in the document name (it appears) to generate the different pages.

            No, you have missed the point. Go back and rtfa again. The attack still works if you rename the documents to the same filename.

            The difference lies in a generated "binary cookie" in the beginning of the postscript documents. This "cookie" makes the postscript intepreter either select to show document 'A' or 'B'. The "thing" with the cookies are that they are carefully selected to be md5-colliding. Result: both documents have the same md5sum.

            You can change the rest of the documents freely if you make the same changes in both documents. The md5sum will change, but it will still be the same for both documents.

            So. No. It is indeed a md5 collission attack.
    • by frovingslosh (582462) on Friday June 10 2005, @02:52PM (#12783244)
      Collisions are NOT and accidential everyday occurance. What is being discussed here is a deliberate md5 match, created by making just the right changes to a document to intentionally get an md5 match.

      2^128 is huge. It's larger by far than the number of all the files in all of the computers in the world. It larger than the number of stars in the universe. Chance collisions will not become an everyday occurance. No accidental collision has ever been found yet. Switching to larger keys will not change anything. Sure, they might make it slightly harder to make a deliberate collision (although I don't know for a fact that they make it harder at all, there were some reports of someone in Japan being able to create a collision by hand with only pencil and paper), but just wait 2 months and the computing power will catch up with that. It's not a matter of the size of the hash function.

      • by RealityMogul (663835) on Friday June 10 2005, @02:55PM (#12783284)
        2^128 is huge. It's larger by far than the number of all the files in all of the computers in the world

        Pfft, let me show you my porn collection.
      • >Switching to larger keys will not change anything.

        Switching to longer hash sizes (not keys) will help against the current generation of SHA attacks. The effect of the Wang attacks is to knock (if memory serves) 16 bits off the work factor to find a collision. In other words, finding a collision in SHA-1 is now 64K times easier than brute force. Make brute force harder and the attack gets harder.

        Some numbers: SHA-1 produces a 160-bit hash. If you're trying to find a collision as oposed to generating on
    • by Dachannien (617929) on Friday June 10 2005, @03:05PM (#12783403)
      We're talking about cryptographic hashes here, not encryption. Encryption is meant to be a reversible process, and is therefore one-to-one. In other words, there's no concern over collisions with encryption.

      With cryptographic hashes, you're throwing away nearly all of the data to obtain a hash (a number) which represents the larger data set in such a way that (hopefully) the hash will never turn up again in practical usage. The article here indicates that there are ways being devised to force two data sets to have a hash collision while keeping the practical parts of the data sets the same.

      As for accusing encryption of being "security through obscurity", you're misusing that term. If knowing the encryption algorithm allowed you instant access to all data encrypted with that algorithm, then yes, the only security present would be dependent upon the secrecy of the algorithm itself. But that's not the case here. Encryption typically works by public key exchange, meaning that a key (a number) used to encrypt messages is shared with the encrypting partner, while the key to decrypt and recover the data is kept private (is never transmitted). Recovering the private key through brute force is not a compromise of the algorithm itself - given enough time, any private key can be recovered, regardless of the algorithm, but by increasing the key size arbitrarily, the time taken to find that key can also be increased arbitrarily.

    • I think that's a big shortsighted... I agree that if we let history take a crack at it, that any encryption put together by smart people will eventually be breakable by smart people.

      However, most data that I deal with day-to-day is time relevant. Do I care if someone figures out my credit card number on an account I closed 5 years ago? Is it terrible if someone hacks an old email only to find out I was begging a professor for a passing grade in 1997?

      Encryption is meant to hide things, and for many

    • by gotr00t (563828) on Friday June 10 2005, @04:14PM (#12784252) Journal
      Think of it this way: You can hash _any_ file of _any_ size using either MD5 or SHA1, and these algorithms will hive you an alphanumeric hash, which has a limited number of permutations. Thare are an infinate number of unique files (assuming adequate storage space), yet there are finite unique hashes.

      Therefore, no matter how many algorithms you sum up using your described method, the number of collisions is still infinite in amount. It is not the algorithms that are flawed, rather, it is the fundamential concept of hashing that allows collisions to happen.

      I would assume that the way to reduce the number of collisions is by increasing the length of the hash itself so as to increase the number of unique hashes.