Writing Software for Worldwide Distribution Proves Difficult

lupa1420 writes "Insensitive computer programmers with little knowledge of geography have cost the giant Microsoft company hundreds of millions of dollars in lost business and led hapless company employees to be arrested by offended governments."

The whole idea is crazy

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't get it.

Re:The whole idea is crazy

[Anonymous Coward]

Come on - a US product is getting flamed for not knowing every fucking quirk of all other countries religeons, customs, languages, etc... I dont love MS by any stretch, but this is ridiculous - if you dont like it, dont fucking buy it.

And people didn't fucking buy it and so Microsoft fucking changed their fucking code so that the fucking people would fucking again buy the fucking product.

Re:The whole idea is crazy

[iamacat]

Which would be absolutely fine, if the countries in question didn't arrest Microsoft employees or ban their citizens from buying the software even if they wanted to.

And above all, if Microsoft didn't decide that not putting a country on the map is just a business decision. If the didn't bend over, perhaps the bully countries in question would give in and use Windows anyway - pirated copies at least - to be able to benefit from business software, CAD, games and other nice products of the civilized world. Use your monopoly for a good cause for a change!

Re:The whole idea is crazy

[Qamelian]

If you don't intend to design for the quirks, languages, etc. of other countries, then don't market your product there. I think the UK would be pretty upset if a US auto manufacturer marketed a car over there that wouldn't drive on the left side of the road! And McDonald's would have serious issues with folks in India if they started selling hamburgers instead of vegetarian burgers they sell there now.

By not taking into account the differences between countries, Microsoft is sending a very broad message that they really don't know their market - something any first year business student can tell you is just plain dumb.

Re:The whole idea is crazy

[Madcapjack]

I agree with you. However, half of the disputes with Microsoft were over nationalist sensitivities (not cultural sensitivity)- not recognizing a Kurdistan is important to the Turkish government, and Turkey has a number of policies to the effect, even going so far (I believe) to ban the Kurdish language. Pakistan and India fighting over that land- if India were not a bigger market than Pakistan then Microsoft would have bent to the Pakistani side of the dispute-

None of us like companies to become political agents in the world- but just doing business in certain parts of the world makes political statements- even if self-serving ones.

Re:The whole idea is crazy

[ChrisGuest]

A few years ago I met a seemingly worldly American in Australia (while the country was engaged in constitutional debate over getting rid of a foreign monarchy). He eanestly asked me, "Do you think Democracy would work here?"

Re:The whole idea is crazy

[Sique]

There are some things you just don't do. You don't try to sell a product called "Mist Stick" in Germany (because this sounds like Miststueck = piece of junk). You shouldn't try to call a car 'Pajero' in Spain (because pajero means something like wanker). You shouldn't try to market a map of Israel in Israel with the U.N. demarkation lines put in and call the Westbank, East Jerusalem and Gazah "Palestina".

Basicly some of those mistakes are unavoidable if you are taking a single product and derive localized versions of it. Call them 'social bugs'. It happens, and you should fix them and get over it. It gets really nasty when you are informed beforehand about some blunders and still don't change your product though.

Re:The whole idea is crazy

[antiMStroll]

Keep that thought fresh when a European developer releases a game about flying planes into New York buildings.

Specific Ocean?

[American AC in Paris]

From TFA:

The annual National Geographic Survey had thrown up the sad fact that only 23 out of 56 young Americans knew the whereabouts of the Pacific Ocean

Oh, cry me a river--like the Pacific Ocean is some big, important thing. I mean, you need to drive all the way to Sweden just to see it!

Re:Specific Ocean?

[Nos.]

As a Canadian, I've talked to many folks from the states over the Internet and trying to describe to them where I live is sometimes very difficult. One of the ones that I thought would work was saying I live about 80 miles north of the border between North Dakota and Montana. However, a lot of people still had no idea where I was talking about, and these are people who live in the USA!

Of course not!

[interactive_civilian]

Nos. said:

One of the ones that I thought would work was saying I live about 80 miles north of the border between North Dakota and Montana. However, a lot of people still had no idea where I was talking about, and these are people who live in the USA!

Of course they had no idea what you were talking about. Every US citizen knows that there is no such thing as "80 miles north of the border". There is no border! That is where the world ends! IIRC, there is a sign that says something like "Here there be monsters" and then a big drop off into the abyss because that is where one would fall off the turtle's back...

.

[/sarcasm]

Re: the grandparent post, that quote from the article got me too. I was wondering if they were showing an upside down map or something...

Re:Of course not!

[justforaday]

Re: the grandparent post, that quote from the article got me too. I was wondering if they were showing an upside down map or something...

Whenever I come across a globe that can be fully flipped upside down, I do so. It gives an interesting perspective on the world, especially considering "up" was chosen fairly arbitrarily...

(Yes, I know, "up" was chosen because that's where North is, but try to remember the whole polar reversal thing that happens from time to time)

Re:Of course not!

[LaCosaNostradamus]

Once people decided that the spin axis itself would be vertical, then N or S being up was a coin flip. In that sense, it was arbitrary, but one or the other had to be chosen; hence, not arbitrary, but inevitable.

But let's say further that you were a globe-maker from the 1800s. Since we have gravity, hence mounts, and simple mounts at that, then your globes had to have a set orientation when placed in a room. Which way up would you have chosen? Yes, that's right, North ... so that all the important geography (as far as your European heritage would be concerned) would be clearly seen from the room light falling from above.

One thing which mystifies me is why the spin axis was chosen to be vertical. If the axis were horizontal, the light used in illuminating rooms would fall on the globe as the sun's rays do ... essentially perpendicular to the equator. There must be some sort of uppedness bias when reading a round object; perhaps linked to the orientation of ancient scrolls.

Re:Of course not!

[markbark]

Quoth the poster: perhaps linked to the orientation of ancient scrolls.

Funny you should say "orientation"
Early European maps had EAST at the top
Ever hear of "orienting" a map?
Point the way in front of you towards your destination (the orient)

(Of course on the way back I guess you had an "occident") ....bad pun, but I couldn't resist

--MAB

Re:Of course not!

[Placido]

One thing which mystifies me is why the spin axis was chosen to be vertical. If the axis were horizontal, the light used in illuminating rooms would fall on the globe as the sun's rays do

What light source? The electric bulb in your ceiling or the candle on your table?

Re:Of course not!

[HrothgarReborn]

You are very uninformed. East has often been used as the top of the map becasue it was the sacred direction from which the sun would rise. You may have heard of "the orient" it means the east and people would orient a map. It is of no small significance to europeans that Jerusalem was there.This goes back through many cultures.

North was also a common choice since the north star was a major navigational point and the only still part in the heavens. In many esoteric understandings the north star was the peak of the cosmic mountain where the Gods dwell. Refer to Isaiah's refereces to "Har Tzafon" or the mountain of the north. Since about 3/4 of the dry land on earth is north of the equator, particularly those areas that developed advanced cultures early, this was also a common model in many cultures.

In every ancient culture maps were designed around spiritual, navigational and astronomical conciderations not on lighting.

As much as slashdotters like to dismiss religon they should really learn to recognize its place in developing almost every aspect of our culture rather than thinking that people of the ancient world centered their lives on which way the light would look best.

Re:Of course not!

[mwood]

Jammu and Kashmir is an interesting problem -- do you want to tick off all the buyers in India or all the buyers in Pakistan? Pleasing either group will displease the other. Maybe l10n will be expanded to include customizing maps for local markets' ideas of proper boundaries for disputed regions. It could get really crazy.

I do have to admit that Microsoft is not alone in running afoul of the diversity of speech and politics around the world. One of my wife's favorite stories is about Chevrolet being pu

Re:Of course not!

[Dogtanian]

One of my wife's favorite stories is about Chevrolet being puzzled that their Nova wasn't selling in South America, until they realized that in some of the local languages the name means "won't go".

I'm going to be a git and spoil this one; click here [snopes.com] to see an analysis of this urban legend.

Re:Of course not!

[ansaari]

I have seen a t-shirt with the manufacturer's label saying in Canada's two official languages:

"Made in Turkey" and "Fabrique en Dinde".

The French "Dinde" is the bird, while the country's name is Turquie in French.

Re:Of course not!

[Anonymous Coward]

Or how about the Toyota MR2. The french read that as Emm Er deux, which sounds a bit like merde, which is french for a word that probably won't get past slashdot's naughty words filter.

Holy shit, when did slashdot add a fucking naughty word filter?

Re:Of course not!

[jc42]

[C]an you imagine the rucus it would cause in this country if they were chanting, say, a Latin mass?

So what country are you in? I'm in the US, where most of the citizens wouldn't recognize a Latin mass. The largest single religious group is Catholics, and most of them wouldn't even recognize the Latin words to the mass.

There's an old joke in the US, that if English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me.

(Part of the joke is that most religious Americans wouldn't understand that it's a joke.)

Re:Of course not!

[Brummund]

Now, imagine if some Christian zealots wanted to ban or censor offensive music, lyrics or even games. I mean, if that was to happen in the US, it would cause an outrage!

Re:Of course not!

[Madcapjack]

Now, imagine the outrage here if a fundamentalist Christian complained about the fact that DOOM 3 portrayed Hell in an incorrect light and it was pulled from the shelves?

I'm not sure this is an apt comparison. I think that the offense came from the fact that the prayer music was part of a profane and violent fighting game. I would be offended too (and I'm not Christian) if Christian religious chanting were used as background music for such a game. Its simply disrespectful to the sentiments involved.

Re:Specific Ocean?

[DGregory]

I'm from Ohio, and when I've gone traveling to Europe, I've had to say "yeah, that's right... near Chicago" but a lot of people only knew where Florida or NYC or California were anyway. And others didn't even know where those were. (Whereas I can diagram on a map the Canadian provinces, many Canadian cities, European countries and cities, and various countries around the world. I'm special like that I guess.)

So while that's not as extreme as not knowing where the Pacific Ocean is... Americans aren't the only geographically-challenged people out there.

Re:Specific Ocean?

[BrianRoach]

So while that's not as extreme as not knowing where the Pacific Ocean is... Americans aren't the only geographically-challenged people out there.

There's only two oceans that lap up against US shores ... you'd think, perhaps, the names wouldn't be alien to the average US citizen.

Beyond that ... I'm also from Ohio. I wouldn't expect anyone outside the US to know where it is :)

Most Euro countries aren't 3000 x 1500 miles in size, made up of 48 separate states. Can you point out something other than London on a map of England? It's only the size of VA.

- Roach

Re:Specific Ocean?

[k98sven]

Most Euro countries aren't 3000 x 1500 miles in size, made up of 48 separate states. Can you point out something other than London on a map of England? It's only the size of VA.

Even taking size into account, most americans have very poor skills. Russia is huge. Most Americans still can't point out where Moscow is, much less Saint Petersburg.
(And I'd be very impressed if they could find Volgograd, Novosibirsk or Vladivostok)

Size isn't a good metric. Montana is big, but only has around what, a million people?

Being an American with good geography skills, living in Europe, I can tell you that IMHO, more Europeans can find Ohio (or at least give its general area) than Americans can find, say, Yorkshire or Bavaria. (and they both have far greater populations than Montana)

Re:Specific Ocean?

[bigman2003]

This kind of 'study' and the statistic about the Pacific Ocean are just bullshit.

There is no way possible that only 20% of the teenage population in America could identify the United States on a standard globe.

Now, possibly if this globe only had latitude/longitude lines, and no geo/political markings (such as continents, countries, oceans) etc. I could believe it.

We have all stared at maps. We all watch TV where the outline of the country is shown on the news. We know what the outline of the country looks like. Florida is that little thingy on the bottom, and Maine is the one way up on top.

We know what the North/South American landmass looks like...okay, yes, South America and Africa could be mistaken for each other - but North America doesn't look much like Eurasia.

I could possibly, somehow, believe that 20% of the teenagers could NOT find the United States. And I would assume that retards would make up about 1/2 of that number.

Take me to a highschool in the most backwoods, or crack infested neighborhood. At least 50% of those kids have some sort of brain and kind and could find the United States. Then go to a fairly decent high school, and you are talking about at least 95% (the other 5% being the aforementioned retards).

Yes, there are morons like Jessica Simpson (god I'd like to bone her) running around who don't know fish from poultry. But that is not 80% of the population.

Shit...if nothing else, about 20% of the teenagers are immigrants...and therefore by world standards, they must be educated enough to pick out our country on a globe.

Re:Specific Ocean?

[BrianRoach]

No ... it means that a foreign citizen that can point out geographic points in a country 4000 miles away and 50 times the size of the one they live in is slighly more enlightened that the dolt who can't tell you what ocean laps up against the shore of the one he lives in.

Beyond that, what incentive would someone in Germany have to know where Ohio is? Being from Ohio, I can state with some authority that there is little, if any.

Unless you have a specific reason for knowing ... basic world geography is probably all you can be expected to know. The world is a big place. I can point out most large Euro nations on a map, and probably know the capitals (and generally where they are). THe only knowledge I have beyond that is from travelling.

But I sure as hell know where all 50 states are, and the major bodies of water in my own country.

- Roach

Re:Specific Ocean?

[benzapp]

Many people in Europe also conceptually know that where these cities/states are (NYC is in the east, Chicago is in the middle, San Francisco is in the west), but they have no idea the distances involved.

Most people in France for instance, probably have no idea their country is only slightly larger than Texas, or that Alaska alone is larger than most of Western Europe.

Re:Specific Ocean?

[DGregory]

You kind of have to go visit there to really understand the distances, no matter where it's at. I understand how big Alaska is, but if I pointed at Juneau (sp?) and Nome on a map, I wouldn't know how long it'd take to go from one city to another.

But I've been to France and know that Paris to Lyon is a 6 hour drive, 2 hrs on the TGV. It's 7 hours from Columbus to Toronto, so it's easy enough to compare that way.

Failure to "feel distance" isn't the same thing

[dwheeler]

I don't think the difficulty people have in understanding differings scales is the same thing at all. Knowing what the locations of major features and countries of Earth is something that can be taught in school - and NEEDS to be taught there.

But understanding the differing scale of things is much harder for human brains wrap around. Yes, they can be described by measuring distance or travel time, but it's hard to really understand differences in scale until you've been there. E.G., I remember visiting in the UK, and some people described "far away" villages which were closer than my daily commute. This is just one of the many reasons that you need to visit a place to really understand it.

Re:Specific Ocean?

[mwood]

Robert Benchley wrote an essay which includes a list of handy phrases for Europeans visiting the U.S. One of them has someone newly arrived in NYC getting into a cab and asking to be driven to a hotel in Chicago.

"So, this is America? That is too bad, I wanted Brazil."

Apples and Oranges

[brunes69]

Think about this for a second.

You are comparing ignorance of regional districts *within* a country (states) to ignorance of major world countries as a whole.

Europeans not knowing where Florida is is a totally different thing to Americans not knowing where Sweeden is. One os a district, the other is a country.

If you think Europeans should know where Florida is, then that means that Americans should know where South Wales is in the UK. Good luck on *that*.

It is pretty much accepted knowledge worldwide that the vast majority of the US population has little concern with anything beyond its own borders. Just watch your average american 6'oclock newscast and count the international references. Compared to other countries' newscasts it should be embarassing.

Re:Specific Ocean?

[musikit]

thats because you don't have WMD. once we need to invade your country everyone in the US and their cousin in Iraq will know the location of your oil deposits.

Re:Specific Ocean?

[micromoog]

Actually having WMD is not a prerequisite for U.S. invasion.

Re:Specific Ocean?

[KilobyteKnight]

As a Canadian, I've talked to many folks from the states over the Internet and trying to describe to them where I live is sometimes very difficult. One of the ones that I thought would work was saying I live about 80 miles north of the border between North Dakota and Montana. However, a lot of people still had no idea where I was talking about, and these are people who live in the USA!

Maybe if you referred to some place in America we'd understand. :)

Seriously, though, I have a friend who was moving from

Re:Specific Ocean?

[vida]

A worldwide survey was conducted by the UN. The only question asked was:"Would you please give your honest opinion about solutions to the food shortage in the rest of the world?"

The survey was a huge failure...

In Africa they didn't know what "food" meant

In Eastern Europe they didn't know what "honest" meant.

In Western Europe they didn't know what "shortage" meant

In China they didn't know what "opinion" meant.

In the Middle East they didn't know what "solution" meant.

In South America they didn't know what "please" meant.

And in the USA they didn't know what "the rest of the world" meant

Re:Specific Ocean?

[Kevin Stevens]

Me and my friends about a year ago decided to come up w/ a single basic screening question to decide if a girl we met was halfway intelligent. We debated on what the one question should be, and finally decided on one: "Where is Kansas?" Where we would mark a point in the air for california and new york and then have them point to where kansas should be. You wouldnt believe where some girls pointed. Some thought it was somewhere around virgina, others in canada, one even pointed to some place out in the middle of the atlantic. And we weren't nitpicking either, you passed if you just pointed to somewhere approximately in the middle. The pass rate for a typical drunk girl was somewhere around 20%. We were astounded. We thought it would be something like 70%. So after seeing those dissapointing results, we did what any guy would do... and lowered our standards.

Re:Specific Ocean?

[switcha]

Where we would mark a point in the air for california and new york and then have them point to where kansas should be. You wouldnt believe where some girls pointed.

So you've got your hands held up in front of you to illustrate geographical locations. Maybe they were trying to poke you in the eye for being such a weirdo.

This probably won't translate:

[JimmytheGeek]

This is a good trick for you females. (There ARE some on /., dammit!)
A very attractive, accomplished, intelligent woman played a prank on me. As a party game, she had me close my eyes and trace the outline of "the ideal woman". I figured the game was to get the guy to lose track and laugh at the deformed outline. Something along the lines of "Her breasts are 2 feet above her neck!"

So I concentraited very hard.

"Ok, show where her eyes are."
"Show where her nose is."
"Show where her hair comes down to."
"Show where her breasts are and their approximate size"
"Show where her navel is."
"Show where her waist is."
"Show where her hips are."

I was focussing really hard as the bits got closer together, sure I was creating a monster.

"Show where her vagina is."
I put my finger out and felt a warm, moist cavity.

I fell over laughing - she'd knelt and put her mouth on my finger. I was pretty surprised. And a bit embarrassed.

New Mexico USA

[sckeener]

My favorite stat is that %25 of US citizens think New Mexico is not a state.

Just imagine if someone invaded New Mexico and 25% of America were upset that we were sending troops there.

Re:Specific Ocean?

[Brandybuck]

Why do people keep bringing up this misleading survey? Actually the survey isn't misleading, Just NetGeo's doom and gloom donation-seeking summary. Let me do a tiny bit to set the record straight.

Yes, American school kids are largely ignorant of geography. But the survey also points out the gross ignorance of students in other nations. Reporters and pundits tend to forget this in their zeal to portray the US as a bunch of nincompoops. It is a good thing that this geographical ignorance in the US is highlighted, because it means that we can now move to correct the problem. But it does not imply that other nations are let off the hook!

This was a survey done by a US organization for a US audience. Then the US media reported about are dumb kids. Then the non-US media came along and quoted the US media, and suddenly the whole world is awed at the stupidity of US schoolchildren.

But if you look at the actual results, or merely read a bit further down in the summary, you'll find a slightly different story. That's what's not being reported: the US is not alone in its geographical ignorance!

Some choice quotes: "Others outside the U.S., most notably young adults in Mexico, also struggled with basic geography facts. Young people in Canada and Great Britain fared almost as poorly as those in the U.S." [nationalgeographic.com].

Or how about, "Young adults worldwide are not markedly more literate about geography than the Americans. On average, fewer than 25% of young people worldwide could locate Israel on the map. Only about 20% could identify hotspots like Afghanistan, Iran, and Iraq" [gtpcc.org], and "In France, 24% did not know that that their own country was a nuclear nation."

It doesn't bother me that the world is picking the US for getting a "D" in geography. What bothers me is that the world thinks getting a "C-" in the same class is a resounding success!

Insular US

[Threni]

I've been to the States and seen some of the news and current affairs programs and seriously, it's like they're aimed at 12 year olds or something. This story doesn't suprise me at all!

Re:Insular US

[Celt]

American news still reminds me of Starship Troopers, "Would you like to know more?"

Re:Insular US

[Scoria]

There are over 30,000,000 functional illiterates here in the United States. 29,302,757 represents 10% of our population, rendering that a staggering figure.

And because it has been widely speculated that they are more responsive to advertising than any other demographic, the networks are probably catering to them.

Re:Insular US

[Anonymous Coward]

There are over 30,000,000 functional illiterates here in the United States. 29,302,757 represents 10% of our population, rendering that a staggering figure.

Yes and one of them is your President!

Re:Insular US

[Scoria]

Yes and one of them is your President!

"To the C students, I say, 'You too can be president of the United States.'" - George W. Bush, 2001

Why would studying C lead you to politics?

[crovira]

I mean its hard enough, isn't it?

All those pointers and 0 based arithmetic. I swear if I ever have to write another link-list routine, I'll go postal.

Re:Insular US

[caluml]

Pres v2001 Clippy [umtstrial.co.uk]

Re:Insular US

[Oligonicella]

Umm, those figures would include infants, small children, and the functionally blind (some) as well. A bit of straw inside that scarecrow.

According to Newsweek (4/16/01) the UN pegs the figure at 97% for the U.S. population over 15 years of age.

Bad (~7.5M), but not nearly as bad as your example. And, it still includes some that aren't so by education.

Re:Insular US

[N3Z]

Many news sources are targeted at an 8'th grade reading/comprehension level, so 14 year olds would be more accurate.

ob simpsons

[Anonymous Coward]

"Marge, anyone could miss Canada. All tucked away down there."

Re:ob simpsons

[whiteranger99x]

Another Quote:

Homer: (Looking at a globe map...country being Uruguay) Hee hee! Look at this country! 'You are gay.'

Que?

[mccalli]

From the article:
Perhaps the best known...was a colour-coded world map showing time zones, which showed the disputed Jammu-Kashmir region as not being in India...The mistake led to the whole of the Windows 95 operating system being banned in the country, losing large sales. For its replacement, Microsoft, Office 97, Microsoft removed the colour coding and sold 100,000 copies in India.

Office 97 replaced Windows 95? Yikes.

Cheers,
Ian

I wish I had a nickel...

[halivar]

I wish I have a nickel for everytime one of my friends calls with a computer problem, and when I ask what operating system they have its always one of the following:

1) Office 97
2) Office 98
3) Windows 97 (and they will refuse to be corrected)

23 in 56 can locate the Pacific Ocean? Seems a little high, to me.

Re:Que?

[jav1231]

So would an Iranian version of Windows have the U.S. labelled as "The Great Satan?" This could actually get very funny. They could market regional versions even here in the U.S. Like label California as "The People's Republic of California" and market it to everyone who doesn't live in New York or California. Label Massachusetts as "Where the Kennedy's come from" for public school children. This could actually be fun.

Re:Que?

[ClippyHater]

Sure, make fun that you can't replace Windows 95 with a version of office.

But you Unix types wouldn't bat an eye if the text read "...replacing Windows 95 with emacs!"

Most of these aren't geographic errors...

[Anonymous Coward]

...they're failure to keep up with global geopolitical madness.

Re:Most of these aren't geographic errors...

[Lemmy Caution]

You're right. I'm all for any reasonable and vicious mockery of the failures of the US educational (lack of a) system, but the violations detailed in the (uncharacteristically poorly written) Guardian article are really of a different sort. I mean, my Spanish is fluent, and I had no idea that hembra means bitch in Nicaragua.

Also, one of the major errors - the inclusion of a chant of verses from the Koran in Kakuto Chojin - was made by Japanese developers.

The article illustrates the value, more than anything, of hiring consultants for each and every country into which you intend to market a product.

Lame article

[jandrese]

Most of the examples listed were problems that cropped up due to political reasons, not due to a lack of geography knowledge. No matter how you draw a map, where you place Kashmir is going to offend someone. The West Bank and the Gaza Strip are going to be contenious no matter where you place them. Microsoft did the only reasonable thing, they drew the maps to the favor of the richer countries (the ones that buy their software). Sorry Pakistan, no disputed territories for you.

Re:Lame article

[Jonboy X]

Sorry Pakistan, no disputed territories for you.

Yeah, who cares about little piss-ant countries like Pakistan. Call me back when they have nukes...

*RRRINNNGGGG*

Re:Lame article

[poot_rootbeer]

Microsoft did the only reasonable thing, they drew the maps to the favor of the richer countries (the ones that buy their software).

No, the reasonable thing to do would have been to develop different versions of the software for each country where it is sold, so that in Windows India Edition the Kashmir region is displayed as part of India, while in Windows Pakistan Edition the Kashmir region is displayed as part of Pakistan.

Microsoft appears to be trying to sell Windows as a global product, but there is no globally-accepted geography that can be used in it. Some degree of localization is necessary.

Oh come on

[AKAImBatman]

From the article, it seems that Microsoft programmers have gotten in trouble because... wait for it... THEY READ A MAP. That's right, THEY READ A MAP. The results of their map reading have lead them into several political situations that there was little possibility of them being aware of. (Talk to the ***holes who make this stuff illegal and ARREST foreigners for READING A MAP.)

Americans may have a poor understanding of Geography, but I don't really see that being an issue in this case. All Microsoft could have done is more thoroughly research the area.

Other items which caused offence

[dwalsh]

Pacific islanders objected to the label "Here be Dragons!".

Several Arab countries resented being called either "Oil" or "Just terrorists".

Several former Soviet Bloc and Warsaw Pact countries objected to the name of their countries being followed by "(or whatever they are calling themselves this week)."

Not Just MS

[cecille]

As much as we'd all like to think that this is just a case of MS screwing up again, I'm pretty sure this isn't just an MS problem. Besides, the article talks not just about simple geography, but of mistakes made about highly disputed geographic regions. There are a few in there where microsoft could have gone either way and still offended someone. Granted, stuff like that should have been checked, but the mistakes really aren't as simple as the post makes them out to be.

Geography?

[cascino]

Insensitive computer programmers with little knowledge of geography


If you read the article, you'll see the computer programmer's problems have nothing to do with geography... and everything to do with understanding and respecting differences in the cultures that may purchase MSFT products. I think showing the programmers where the Pacific Ocean is isn't going to do very much to make the software more culturally acceptable.

Not too sure about this....

[jaguarxse]

Although something rings true in this about many USA citizens not having a 'global' view (World Series Baseball, World Wide Wrestling....erm, I don't think these are worldwide sports actually!), many of the points in this article would not be known without some pretty thorough investigation of political/geographical interests.

Re:Not too sure about this....

[hoggoth]

> without some pretty thorough investigation

You mean like READING?

I live in the same county of the same state I was born in and I certainly knew Kashmir is a disputed region between India and Pakistan, and I certainly knew China refuses to acknowledge Taiwan exists as a separate entity from China.

These aren't esoteric things. It's not that big a world.
I mean... don't any of you play RISK?!

Re:Not too sure about this....

[Covener]

Isn't the whole point that these things are disputed?

TFA makes little sense

[kilo242]

I did partly RTFA, and unless I'm way off on my understanding, Microsoft is blaming their lost business on people who have little right to be blamed for what they are being blamed for. Do the programmers really need to know about the world affairs - I thought that would be the job of the marketing or PR people.

Re:TFA makes little sense

[shis-ka-bob]

I agree with you on this one. Blaming the Microsoft programmers is especially off base for the example where the Koran was chanted in the background of a game. This was done by Japanese subcontractors and discovered when Microsoft did some tests. Their process found the flaws - this is a success for Microsoft's process management. The marketing people seemed to have then made a deliberate decision to ship anyway. Sohow does this show the insensitivity and ignorance of US developers?

Bigger problem I see

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone else have a problem with governments detaining software engineers for something as trivial as a mis-marked map?

Re:Bigger problem I see

[Mordaximus]

Funny you should make a comment like that in your comments regarding this article. It's that exact lack of sensitivity to foreign policy and belief that got the engineers detained in the first place. (Although I don't know that the engineers themselves were responsible.)

Read up on the history of Kashmir and it'll be clear that this isn't trivial. Besides, the engineers were detained for breaking a law... Maybe that law seems silly to you, but I'm sure there are tons of examples of from your homeland that seem silly to outsiders. Although, they are probably not likely to trigger a war.

In the eye of the beholder ...

[kbahey]

I agree that it is a problem.

But, put yourself in their shoes and see how it looks. As trivial as a map may look, there are political implications behind it. For example, in this case, an area inhabited by a ethno-linguistic minority asserts its independance, although the de facto situation is that this is within the bounds of a soverign state. What is worse, is that they see this as a conspiracy from more powerful countries to assert the reverse of the status quo.

Some issues appear really trivial, but are really sensitive/contentious in other countries/cultures. Here are some examples:

• Go to Greece and ask for "Turkish" coffee, and the most likely situation is that they will not serve you. You may even receive a lecture from the waiter too. Even mentioning the Turkish culture in an academic or historical sense to some Greeks will cause them to lose thier calm. The same can be true with Armenians too.
• Calling the Persian Gulf "Persian" for the Arab states on the West coast of it. The Arabic name is "Gulf of the Arabs".

Every culture has those "hot button" issues.

There are many other cases I am sure, but you get the idea ...

Passing the buck

[dmayle]

hapless company employees

Talk about passing the buck. Some of the top problems in the article:

• Microsoft employees were questioned by police in China, where it is an offence to refer to Taiwan as country or as the Republic of China. Now Taiwan is not referred to as country and all software worldwide avoids the issue by referring to places as "regions or districts".
• Perhaps the best known, and one of the most expensive, errors was a colour-coded world map showing time zones, which showed the disputed Jammu-Kashmir region as not being in India - an offence under Indian law.

This isn't hapless employees. This is government oppression, and the bans on free speech necessary to pull them off.

I beg to differ

[achurch]

This isn't hapless employees. This is government oppression, and the bans on free speech necessary to pull them off.

Censorship, tough laws, whatever, but if you're going to do business in a country then you'd damn well better get yourself familiar with the way that country works. As the oft-repeated phrase goes, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse."

Master / Slave HDD

[SirStanley]

Isn't this like that time some city legislation out in California decided to ban the words "Master and Slave" when refering to Hard Drive configurations because it was not "Sensitive" to African Americans?

Re:Master / Slave HDD

[arkanes]

To clarify: They didn't decide to ban it, they just passed some referendum about requesting that hard drive manufacturers change the terminology. Unlike, say, China. Or India. Who _do_ outright ban stuff they don't like.

Re:Master / Slave HDD

[drinkypoo]

When I hear the word "Slave" the first thing that comes to mind is white women with blonde hair and big tits dressed up in leather that doesn't cover any of their goodies and strapped to a cross or something.

Primary is the first IDE bus, and Secondary is the second one. You'd have Primary Primary, Primary Secondary, Secondary Primary, and Secondary Secondary. You don't think that would be confusing? I thought this was news for nerds.

After reading this article...

[numbski]

...I'm going to rant. :P

Usually, I'm an american that makes every effort to be understanding of cultures different than my own, and to try to understand why it is that the US is frowned upon by other cultures. We have a foreign exchange intern here from Europe right now, and we've had long conversations about why and how americans take their relative wealth for granted (even our citizens on welfare tend to be wealthier than many in smaller european countries!)

But this...this isn't a lack of sensitivity on Microsoft's part. It's a lack of toleration on the part of other cultures. Knowing full-well that this software was written by programmers of another culture, there should be a degree of toleration and patience that goes along with the process. Make the developer aware of the issue and give them a chance to fix it.

Honestly, if someone in another culture (India perhaps?) that wasn't sufficiently versed in US geography made a map that, oh...I don't know, put St. Louis in Illinois rather than Missouri, or show the Arch crossing the Mississippi River or something equally stupid, I suppose some might be offended (I can think of other, more controversial examples...), but more than likely we'd give them the chance to fix it first.

Americans may be stuck up, take a WHOLE lot of freedoms for granted, have lots of money, and think too highly of themselves at times to bother learning about other cultures, but I'll give you one thing:

Even some of the most annoying pricks I know seem to be more tolerant than some other cultures are to the average Joe. How pathetic is that?

Re:After reading this article...

[stratjakt]

How many people do you think look at a map of America and think the nations capital is in the far northwest.

Hell, plenty of Americans dont even know that the State of Washington has nothing to do with Washington in the District of Columbia.

Hell, do they even know that D.C. isn't a state, it's a special district with it's own government?

Do they know that Peurto Rico belongs to the US, but is it's own nation? I suppose referring to Peurto Rico as a state would offend some Peurto Ricans.

The difference between this example and China or India, is it's not a criminal offense to mistakenly refer to Peurto Rico as a "state", neither in the USA or in Peurto Rico. It is a criminal offense to refer to Taiwan as a country in China.

Re:After reading this article...

[transient]

put St. Louis in Illinois rather than Missouri

It's hard to compare the Kashmir problem to anything in the United States because we aren't involved in any border disputes with our neighbors. The closest thing that I can come up with would be to say that Texas still belongs to Mexico. Even that is a stretch, because the Mexico-Texas border isn't disputed. Kashmir is a very real political disagreement that doesn't even have a border -- it has a cease-fire line! People have died over Kashmir, and I'm not talking about someone's ancestor five generations ago, I'm talking about earlier this year. I think it's undeniably insensitive for anyone to ignore that. Doesn't anyone at Microsoft read the news?

Honest Mistakes

[copponex]

The article is crap. Among their blunders are:

- Referring to Taiwan as a country
- Not showing disputed parts of India in India
- Japanese employees mistakenly use Koran chants in a video game

Most of the people who were offended are governments who "demand" respect. And those kind of governments are the least likely to deserve it.

Nice Title...

[maggeth]

Writing Software for Worldwide Distribution Proves Difficult

In order to assist our beloved editors with coming up with more accurate titles, I have included a list of other titles that they can use for articles at thier discretion:

Light Speed Turns Out to be Really Fast
Windows Security Hole Discovered, Disavowed
Fall Elections May Descend into Chaos
Script Kiddies Demand More H@x, Fewer Firewalls, Higher Salaries
Microsoft PR Campaigns Foolish, Ineffective
Hot Grtis Proven to Make ANYONE More Attractive

Politics rather than Geography

[eqkivaro]

If you read the article you realize that most of the mistakes made had nothing to do with geography.

"Microsoft employees were questioned by police in China, where it is an offence to refer to Taiwan as country or as the Republic of China"

How is this a geography issue? Taiwan recognizes itself as an independent country.

"A game called Age of Empires 2 offended the Saudi Arabian authorities because it showed victorious Muslim armies turning churches into mosques"

Again, how is this a geography issue?

I think this article is just bait for the daily MS bashing on /.

-chris

It's to be expected...

[Cervantes]

I mean, really, how is a programmer in the states supposed to know that a valid spanish word, used in the spanish version of the program, is an insult in central america?

This sounds much more like a "lets point out all the funny fuckups from M$" article, and much less a diatribe on the difficulties of writing international software. Yes, they've made a few mistakes, and the occasional horrid judgement call (I mean, really, insulting all of Islam? Well, at least now we know better...). But some things, like the evil spanish word, referring to breakaway states as countries in their own right, or other such silliness, are just an "oops", where you wouldn't expect them to rightfully know better.

On that note though, what's up with the rabid nations emasculating anyone who dares suggest that Kashmir or Taiwan are separate countries? I generally find foreign media less crazy than US, but try reading an article from a chinese newspaper on taiwan sometime... it's almost frighteningly evangelical in it's belief.

And, finally... come on, AoE2? I thought the muslims replacing the churches was a cute touch, not insulting... I mean, it's a game, you have to change the game elements to fit the theme of whoever is winning... and you wouldn't expect westerners to know the details of how the muslims handled conquered peoples and their religion during the crusades...

Oh that's great!

[Pandion]

A game called Age of Empires 2 offended the Saudi Arabian authorities because it showed victorious Muslim armies turning churches into mosques. The game was withdrawn from sale in the kingdom

*cough*hagia sophia*cough*

And what about slashdot?

[hsoft]

Here in Canada, we consider this color as "puke yellow", not "IT color". What a geographical mistake!

I will not stop until the color changes!

Re:And what about slashdot?

[MKalus]

Here in Canada, we consider this color as "puke yellow", not "IT color". What a geographical mistake!

I will not stop until the color changes!

You Sir, ain't no Canadian.

It is colour, eh!

Negative Article

[guinsu]

The article made it out to be very negative to Microsoft, when in fact most of the problems seemed to be government pissing matches. A few examples include refering to the "Republic of Tawain", which everyone but China recognizes, or making mention of the disputed Kashmir region, which 3 different countries seem to believe belongs to them.

Notice that the fix for these problems wasn't to fix the map in windows, but to remove it entirely. That shows that it wasn't an "error in geography" on MS's part but that you can't get 2 governments to agree on geography and Microsoft was stuck in the middle.

I'd look at it another way...

[argStyopa]

Rather than blame the "insensitive computer programmers", perhaps we could look the other direction and realize that some people/cultures/religions are incredibly OVERsensitive, and catering to their peculiarities is just enabling them.

I mean please. From the article:
A game called Age of Empires 2 offended the Saudi Arabian authorities because it showed victorious Muslim armies turning churches into mosques. The game was withdrawn from sale in the kingdom

The Korean government, objected because Microsoft software showed the national flag in reverse. The software had to be changed.

The Spanish version of Windows used the word Hembra - meaning "woman" in Spain - for choosing gender. But in some Central American republics, notably Nicaragua, the word is an insult meaning "bitch". The programme was changed.

Microsoft employees were questioned by police in China, where it is an offence to refer to Taiwan as country or as the Republic of China. Now Taiwan is not referred to as country and all software worldwide avoids the issue by referring to places as "regions or districts".

Uruguay is a republic and proud if it but in Microsoft's Outlook in Uruguay, the company offended the government by describing Tuesday April 30 as the queen's birthday.

Let's look at these.
1) For Muslims turning churches into Mosques, yeah, that's HORRIBLY unrealistic propaganda. I have two words for you: Hagia Sophia.

2) the Korean flag in reverse: so what?

3) hembra: hardly an 'insensitivity' issue; it sounds like a genuine difference in dialect.

4) China/Taiwan: boo hoo. If the Chinese want to dwell in their eternal house of reality-denial, that's fine. What's next, we should stop recognizing Philippines because Spain wants them back? (I don't see the US forcing MS to delete Cuba from the map...)

5) The Queen of Uruguay: that's just funny. If someone accidentally or on purpose started referring to the US as a monarchy, they'd probably be hired as a spokesperson for the DNC.

Maybe it's just a particularly American viewpoint, but this whole stuff about sacred cows (pun intended) is just silly historio/political dreck. If MS wants to bend over backwards to accomodate the Latvio-Armenian midget lesbian lobby for more sales, that's their call. But nobody should claim that failure to do so is anything but a business decision. The folks who get up in arms about the slightest little thing need to grow thicker skins and get the fsck over it.

And yes, to forestall the /. counterpost wave: I know that the US has some of their own sacred cows, which I think are equally silly. But I'd also argue that the US has a long tradition of arguing but ultimately tolerating such things - crucifixes in urine, routine desecrations of our symbols like the flag, etc. - are practically part of the evening news.

Axe to grind?

[Shoten]

The writer talks about how the average person has trouble with minor challenges in geography (true enough), but then goes on to talk about Microsoft programmers:

1, Not knowing where Jammu-Kashmir is, exactly, and not knowing that Indian law prohibits considering it part of anything but India. (Never mind that the law has its own counterpart in Pakistan; you can't avoid breaking the law on this one.)

2, In a similar vein, having to offend Kurds so as not to offend the Turks with regard to the depiction of Kurdistan.

3, Offending the Saudis by showing churches turned into mosques by invading Muslim armies...never mind that the exact opposite happens when a Christian army takes over a mosque in the game.

4, Didn't know that "woman" in one dialect of Spanish means "bitch" in another.

None of these things seem to me to be so hard to imagine. Do Nicaraguans know that the word "cracker" can be used as a racist term here? Do Indians know that the Argentines go completely apeshit when you refer to the Faulkand Islands as such, rather than by their preferred name for them? And his assertion that Microsoft leaves their employees facing arrest in other countries seems baseless; he didn't mention a single instance. The worst he came up with was "questioned," and that was for calling Taiwan by it's real name. It's not Microsoft's fault that China has a wild hair up their ass over that one, either.

Straight from the horses' mouth

[delus10n0]

http://weblogs.asp.net/oldnewthing/archive/2003/08 /22/54679.aspx [asp.net]

The time zone map met a similar fate. The Indian government threatened to ban all Microsoft software from the country because we assigned a disputed region to Pakistan in the time zone map. (Any map that depicts an unfavorable border must bear a government stamp warning the end-user that the borders are incorrect. You can't stamp software.) We had to make a special version of Windows 95 for them.

Geopolitics is a very sensitive subject.

Churches to Mosques?

[Zarkonnen]

"A game called Age of Empires 2 offended the Saudi Arabian authorities because it showed victorious Muslim armies turning churches into mosques. The game was withdrawn from sale in the kingdom."

Just as a minor, semi-offtopic comment: Um, wasn't that precisely what happened to the Hagia Sofia? You can still see the faint traces of the crosses that were removed when the whole thing was turned into a Mosque. So even if turning churches into mosques wasn't normal practice, it did happen. To quote from a website about the Hagia Sophia [patriarchate.org]:

"On Tuesday, May 29, 1453, Sultan Mehmet the Conqueror entered the vanquished city late in the afternoon and rode to Hagia Sophia. He was amazed at its beauty and decided to convert the Cathedral into his imperial mosque."

(Disclaimer: No, I'm not trying to be inflammatory about religion, I'm just making a historical point.)

fall forever, Pacific Ocean where?

[spoonyfork]

A game called Age of Empires 2 offended the Saudi Arabian authorities because it showed victorious Muslim armies turning churches into mosques. The game was withdrawn from sale in the kingdom

I've been to some mosques that were converted from churches after wars. I even have pictures [comcast.net]. This happened. I could understand how some Christians could get a little miffed. Could someone explain how it is offensive to Muslims?

Also, the geography "mistakes" in the article appear to be more policitical in nature than some developer not knowing where the Pacific Ocean is. Would I expect some developer in China to know about the controverial border between Michigan and Ohio that led to the Toldeo (Ohio) War? [michigan.gov]

Missing the point

[EdMcMan]

It is not the programmer's responsibility to be aware of these things. Public relations people should be there to supply them with information as well as check products before they are done. Programmers are paid to program, not be familiar with customs of other countries.

Re:not exclusive

[slackerboy]

It's not like MS specifically hires programmers who have no clue where the Pacific Ocean is.

I hope not. Especially since Seattle is essentially on the Pacific Ocean.!

Re:And don't forget the classics...

[jyoull]

Actually this needs yet another correction in a long successions of trying to shut down this myth.

the NoVa story isn't true, see Snopes for details http://www.snopes.com/business/misxlate/nova.asp [snopes.com]

While we're on the subject..

[skurk]

A little while ago, Honda introduced a car in scandinavia called Honda Fitta [mag-x.com]. Honda didn't do enough research as it turned out that "fitta" is a scandinavian slang for.. "cunt".

Re:obligatory simpson quote.

[kbmccarty]

in true slashdot bashing style. Haha!
i kinda wonder if linux offends accidentally or not tho.

Actually, the well-known Debian developer Herbert Xu resigned [debian.org] recently due to being offended [debian.org] by project members discussing (in the context of the new Debian installer) whether or not to refer to Taiwan as "Taiwan, Province of China" as it is officially designated in ISO 3166. [iso.org]

So this sort of problem is certainly not restricted to commercial or proprietary software.