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Symantec Hit by Product Activation Glitch
Posted by
CowboyNeal
on Sat Nov 01, 2003 10:08 AM
from the humbled-beginnings dept.
from the humbled-beginnings dept.
An anonymous reader writes "According to this article, Symantec has hit a snag in their product activation scheme. On a certain machine, the software machine would always ask for the activation when the computer is started or restarted, despite the fact that they have thoroughly tested the scheme." According to the article, Symantec has finally managed to replicate the problem, and those hit by the bug are asked to contact Symantec's support channels. However, there's no mention of a fix yet.
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Honest users the victims (Score:5, Insightful)
Product activation only irritates legitimate buyers of software and all it does to software piracy is encourage hacking or mass duplication of enterprise edition CDs.
When you have legit customers using 'pirate' discs because the product activation features annoy them (or completely prevent them from using the software at all) you've just backed the slowest horse in the customer satisfaction race.
Re:Honest users the victims (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Honest users the victims (Score:5, Informative)
And with these kinds of application, the OS which it uses is of no concern anyways: these tools usually come with their own bootdisk, and there is absolutely no problem to duplicate a Windows partition using a Unix based tool!
Parent
Re:Honest users the victims (Score:3, Informative)
The NTFS (Windows NT File System) is currently not fully supported:
I will not trust making images for any of my workstations if it adds another potential factor other than MS instability for crashes.
Until then I have to stick with tried methods which now includes Symantec Ghost.
Also unfortunately the security folks do not want any *nix machines (even though most of their IDS are based on some flavour *nix but I have to abide by their wishes)
Re:Honest users the victims (Score:4, Informative)
The NTFS (Windows NT File System) is currently not fully supported:
I will not trust making images for any of my workstations if it adds another potential factor other than MS instability for crashes.
The just use Udpcast [linux.lu] which is completely file-system independant. It directly reads from the disk partition, and doesn't need to understand its structure. Compression is achieved using lzop or gzip, to keep transfer times manageable.
Until then I have to stick with tried methods which now includes Symantec Ghost.
You are sadly mistaken if you believe that this doesn't add to the MS instability ;-)
Also unfortunately the security folks do not want any *nix machines (even though most of their IDS are based on some flavour *nix but I have to abide by their wishes)
Just don't tell them ;-) It's just a self-contained boot CD. No need to know what OS is on it, especially since nothing of it is installed permanently on the PC.
Parent
Re:Honest users the victims (Score:3, Insightful)
Just like XP, you have to let your machine either contact Adobe over the internet, or phone their customer service number to get the activation code that's locked to your individual computer.
Oh yes, and apparently you can only activate twice over the internet, then you HAVE to phone their CSRs to explain why you're not a pirate giving copies to your friends t
Re:Honest users the victims (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
You need the corporate version... (Score:4, Informative)
You need the corporate version of Windows XP Professional. It does not require activation. (Moderators, don't moderate this as a troll. It's true, there is a corporate version that does not require activation.)
If things continue, think where they will go: 800 digits to do activation! If you make a mistake, the EULA says MS can come around with whips.
It doesn't work to have proprietary software. It is becoming more of a way to deliver hostility to honest people than a way to deliver a useful product.
Install Mandrake Linux. You boot from the CD. It asks you three questions (if you are connected to a network), and everything works. It's stable.
Advantages of Free, Open Source Software:
There are no tricks to get you to spend more. There's no one to be your enemy part of the time. When you try to get tech support, you can find people who are helpful, not arrogant, as in the case of Microsoft and Symantec. Open Office works very well and is less quirky than Microsoft Office. You don't need to worry about licenses and possible lawsuits if you install too many copies. There is no vulnerability of the week. There is no company representative lying about competing software. There are no closed file formats. There are no sneaky EULAs that change during security fixes, so that you must agree to a different contract after you have already made the decision to own the product. There are no security fixes that change the settings of your software, so that the new settings are less secure. (MS in case you haven't seen that one; it's Multiple Scuzziness.) With Open Source, you don't have to be business partners with people whom you would avoid if you saw them at a party.
On the other hand, proprietary software can be character building if you survive. You can make a scientific sociological study of how some people, when they get power, torture other people. And, when you arrive at the Pearly Gates, Saint Peter will say, "Proprietary software user? You've already been to Hell. Go directly into Heaven."
Parent
Re:Honest users the victims (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Honest users the victims (Score:3, Interesting)
Wrong. I have prooved to myself so many times how very worth it it is to have activation in my product. Unless you don't have an internet connection, mine never has any troubles. I don't know why symantec couldn't manage to make something that just works like mine. Simple public key/private key encryption and a single registry setting and a single hit to a website to encrypt your computer specifics.
Almost nobody even realizes my program uses activation unless they don't have an internet connection and h
Re:Honest users the victims (Score:3, Interesting)
Well there is a notice that says you must be online in order to activate, on the screen where the user must enter their code, but no personal information is really sent with the activation request anyways, its already stored on my server in a database from when they purchased, since
Re:Honest users the victims (Score:3, Insightful)
Is anyone surprise? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Is anyone surprise? (Score:2)
On a PC, sure. But not on a console. Or on tomorrow's all-in-one entertainment center appliances.
Problems! (Score:5, Insightful)
As with all stories about virri, here [grisoft.com] is the link to a FREE Antivirus app.
Re:Problems! (Score:5, Insightful)
How about that. I'd think the product activation scheme would provide a nice target for malicious code. Why try to outsmart the antivirus when you can more easily make it refuse to work?
Parent
How Do They Not Get It? (Score:4, Interesting)
Is this just another case of managerial idiocy--the programmer grunts can't explain to the bosses that it is a futile misguided effort?
Or are the programmers just not really trying? Are they just going along with it because it's their job, rather than actually trying to make a quality product? (which, as it turns out, really isn't their job)
Re:How Do They Not Get It? (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:How Do They Not Get It? (Score:4, Interesting)
"This really has been a top priority for our product activation development team."
They have a 'product activation developement team.' So, there's one group of people working on this, and that's their job. the people with other jobs aren't in the loop about product activation, and those working on it need it for job security.
I can't really see many people saying, "Excuse me, sir, my job doesn't matter."
I wonder if they actually decided to implement product activation without asking the programmers? It seems insane, and there's no way to know, but anything is possible.
Parent
Re:How Do They Not Get It? (Score:2)
I doubt the managers will get i
Re:How Do They Not Get It? (Score:2)
ding ding ding.
Once a company gets to a certain size, big company mentality starts taking over. Benefits get reduced, frequent changes filter down from on high with no apparent reason other than cost cutting, etc. After a while, most people get ground down to where they just try to do what they're told as well as possible, rather than trying to innovate or argue.
This is one reason why, for in
Yeah... (Score:4, Insightful)
Although I heard from a relative that they got billed by McAffee's even after they told them to cancel their subscription for virus updates. I was told they were basiclly ignored by the company. So if you have to run windows be very careful what you get when your dealing with anti-virus packages.
It's sad really, all of this adds the the nightmare of maintaining a windows system. My linux box has none of these problems and was 10x easier to install then Windows XP. (Mandrake 9.1)
Enough already (Score:2)
Heck, even my Linux and OS X boxes keep asking for activation!
Login:
When will they learn?! (Score:5, Insightful)
Copy protection rarely stops piracy, and usually screws with the customer. Online activation is just the newest wave. Even M$ can't get it right. Has anyone met somebody who really really likes online activation?
IMHO, the best way to fight piracy is to have a great product that's reasonably priced. And the purchase price buys you support and updates. Each CD key can only register once for a support/update password, so those who pirate the software don't get support. And catching a pirated key/support p assword combination is as easy as running your HTTP logs through an analysis program.
No vendor will ever completely stamp out piracy, the best they can hope to do is making purchasing the product as attractive as possible.
Re:When will they learn?! (Score:2)
Duh. It's mostly to raise the bar for a sufficient amount of time so that money can be made. there are a lot of channels of piracy and copyright violations that aren't targeted because they are more expensive to go after and have smaller effects that going after the big fish.
Re:When will they learn?! (Score:5, Interesting)
I tried using a complicated scheme where the registration codes would expire after a period of time and the license key was written to the user's hard drive (along with a MAC address to prevent that file from being copied.) It took the pirates about 2 months longer to crack the scheme, but other than that, it had no effect other than to piss off customers.
Of course I dumped that scheme and went back to a simpler name/code written to a preference file.
But, at the same time, I've introduced a few "anomalies" that pop up only when a pirated serial number is used. This, in turn, causes the casual pirate to send me an e-mail saying "feature x isn't working". And then I politely explain why. I've actually gotten a few new customers because of this technique -- a twist on the "support" theme of the parent post.
And it's fun to watch the confusion caused by the "anomalies" on the cracker discussion forums
Parent
Re:When will they learn?! (Score:5, Interesting)
The first few programs I released I simply had a "reminder" window pop up regularly to tell the user that it was a shareware program and that they should make a donation to support the development. One of these programs became relatively popular in a niche market, and I know for a fact that over 250 users are using it daily in BUSINESS production. Guess how many people registered? One. Guess how many people email for support, and get pissed off after I only answer their first 2-3 emails? LOTS.
So, my new programs have an activation feature tied to the program after a 30-day trial. Sure, there's tons of pissed off people that get annoyed when the 30-day trial expires and they have to register to continue using it in their business. Do I care? No, because otherwise they wouldn't register and I would have $0 to show for my thousands of hours of work on the software.
Now for commercial software where they pay money up front, that's a different issue. For shareware, it's the ONLY way to get compensated for the value you're giving people. I find the 30-day trial period lets them decide if its worth the money. If they get caught on day 30 in a pickle, that's their problem because I've warned them for 29 days that it would expire if they didn't register.
MadCow.
Parent
A Fix (Score:3, Funny)
My product activation strory. (Score:4, Interesting)
I had to reinstall one of the machines in the Web Cafe that I own. Since all the computers have the exact same hardware, the easiest way was to pull the hard drive from one of the PCs to the one that is acting as a file and print server.
Because of several reasons that I really don't want to explain right now, all the machines are running Windows XP Pro (yes, I did try using Linux first, no, the clients didn't want to use it.)
So I have all my licenses in order ( the BSA can come here and kiss my ass) and activated.
I swapped the hard drives, and of course, I knew I would had to activate Windows again. No problem right?
yeah, right
A message came up saying that I had exceeded the number of installations valid for my CD Key or something like that.
"Crap, now what? I paid for All these licenses!"
So I called the 1-800 number on the screen and tried to navigate the voice menu (I hate those). The system hanged on me twice before I could speak to a real person.
"What seems to be the problem"
I described to her the problem and I had to dictate her a 30 digit number that was on screen. After a while, she gave me another 30 digit number to type.
After we were finished I asked her If I would have to call every single time I needed to reinstall Windows. She said that she didn't knew.
If I have to call Microsoft every single time I need to reinstall MY machines, I am going to be very, very pissed.
With product activation, Microsoft is treating their customers, me in this case, like criminals. I could have downloaded a crack from the Net, but no, instead I spend 10,000 pesos (almost 1,000 dollars) in Microsoft software and I get treated like a criminal and waste my time calling them for permission to reinstall my machines.
This sucks.
As soon as I think my clients could start using a Linux desktop just by sitting in front of it and not needing any training, all Microsoft software is out from here.
Product activation sucks. The people who want to use software illegaly with product activation will find a way (cracks, serials, etc) and the only ones getting the finger are the honest paying costumers.
Linux in public access computers (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe, if you charge for use, you could try the following: start with a few linux machines, and charge less for using them -- and hang a little sign saying, "These machines use linux, they cost less because linux is free and windows is expensive". Make them as similar to windows as possible, with similar desktops and beh
When will they learn? (My rant) (Score:5, Insightful)
Last week I started setting up two new G5s for a client. They use QuarkXPress, the 6.0 version of which has adopted product activation (I've been steering all my clients to Adobe InDesign, but this particular one was willing but unable to switch for some reason). Any Mac people reading this who historically know how bad Quark is can see where this is going. Three times, I retyped the two codes on the sheet that came with the upgrade CD to activate the software, and I'm punching the damn things in correctly-- what do I get? "Invalid serial number." So I have to call these fucktards to get this shit activated, which I'm not doing until I have the second machine running, so I won't have to call a second time if that one fails as well. And after I clone the build to the second G5, I'll have to uninstall the Macromedia shit they got and reinstall and activate it, because that has activation as well. What a colossal waste of time.
And all of these companies make it such a fucking hassle to get a multi-user install code, that when I do a build destined for multiple machines I just have clients buy single-user licenses so they're covered, and I install the shit with warezed site-license codes. Why doesn't every company simply offer a web page where one can go, punch in all of their single-user codes for a given product, and in return get a single code good for that number of licenses? I don't have time to sit on hold with the Volume Licensing Department, I have work to do! And Quark, those fucking bastards CHARGE you to consolidate licenses, so I just used warezed multi-user codes for them, too, as long as my clients have enough single licenses to cover themselves. You can take my Office v.X Volume License Edition install CD when you pry it from my cold, dead hands-- no more typing in those stupid fucking codes from MS, either.
Oh, and speaking of MS, last week I had to add 5 CALs to a client's Terminal Server. Microsoft e-mailed us two "proof of purchase" type codes, and we had to go to a web site and punch them in to get the actual install code. But did that work? Noooo, I ended up having to call them to get the fucking code. All this jumping through hoops, I ended up billing the client for an HOUR, just to punch in a fucking 25-character license code. It's ridiculous.
As you can see, these anti-piracy features do nothing but waste my billable time (and ultimately my clients' money), and force legitmate users to turn to cracks and hacks and codez to get things done in an efficient manner.
Re:When will they learn? (My rant) (Score:4, Interesting)
Friend, I sympathize, I really do. If the world didn't have serial numbers and passwords, I would be out of a job. I'm even a Mac pro, too. But, all that said, there's no way that I would use warez serial numbers anywhere that I was getting paid to do work. I'll sometimes take that chance on my own machines, when I'm demoing something--I'm not going to purchase a full version of Quark, say, just so I can learn how it operates, so I can learn how to support it. But at work--no way.
If Quark wants to waste your time, pass on the cost to the client. When they challenge a 1/2hr charge, you can explain to them that that was for the 1/2hr you spent on the phone with Quark Volume Licensing--and, oh, btw, Adobe picks up their phone right away, so now do you see how ID would actually save you money? Passing on the costs of Product Activation is the only way to get these corps to change their practices and remember on which side their bread is buttered; enabling that customer-hostility is only going to wind up costing you grief.
Parent
Right, okay, uhuh, sure..... (Score:5, Funny)
You know... I'd really like to know just how they think a customer's gonna be able to pull that off.
Catch 16h (Score:5, Funny)
However, there's no mention of a fix yet.
And when there is a fix it will only be available to users who have properly registered and activated their copy of the program.
-- MarkusQ
Microsoft's Product Activation (Score:5, Interesting)
My company standardised on Office 2000 at a cost of > $300 per seat (10 seats). The original activation was sooo easy; we have an "always-on" Internet connection, the software connected to Microsoft's site and we were off to the races in about 30 seconds after installing.
As computers will do, several went belly up and I had to replace them. One needed nothing more than a bigger hard disk, but required re-authorization. In the meantime (less than 6 mos), MS had released Office XP. Wouldn't you know that activation was no longer so easy! The software kept coming up with "server not responding" and I was forced to call to get an authorization code. This activity included an extra copy that we bought that had never been activated! So much for their promises of being easy to authorize.
After a couple of 20 minute (mostly on hold) sessions to get authorization numbers, I tracked down a cracked copy of Office. I still keep the original licenses in a locked cabinet in case we are ever audited by the software gestapo, but I re-install off of the cracked copy to avoid the authorization. I personally think this is a forced upgrade policy.
We can no longer buy Office 2000. What do you think I'm going to do when we need a new copy of Office? Microsoft has forced me to pirate their software!
(posted as AC for obvious reasons)
Futile (Score:2, Insightful)
if(product activated){run product} else {don't}
what ever method they use it all boils down to just running the program or not running it, at the most there will be afew extras that keep checking or individual modules activating, and the most complex might involve running some p
This is particularly bad in this type product (Score:5, Interesting)
Symantec should realize their market, and for those who paid, expect to be able to use their product.
Luckily they don't have this yet on the macintosh side...
Why would NAV need it anyway? (Score:5, Insightful)
So the real business model, like the one I rely on at my company, is recuring revenue. That's where the gold is because its multiplicitive with SKU sales. Mmm Mmm good!
End of the day, what Symantec should want people to pass around copies of NAV, but make it so it's only really effective if they keep it up to date through a subscription. I think in this case the subscription is warranted because NAV actually does have to do a substantial amount of work on a continuous basis. You are paying them to be your front lines in an ongoing battle and they, like many of the others, do a good job.
AOL got the model right when they put threw AOL disks out of airplanes for all those years just to get the subs. That model would work for antiviral software and many other things as well.
My favorite line.. (Score:5, Funny)
"NEW! Includes product activation procedure to ensure authenticity."
Just what I've always wanted -- huzzah! This by the way makes it to spot 2 on their feature list. Less marketoid bullshit please... Thanks.
Dear Symantec, (Score:4, Interesting)
Some of the 1.2 million customers that have installed software maker Symantec's latest Norton PC security package have been unable to use the software because of new antipiracy technology, the company confirmed Thursday.
Ok, so 1.2mil is decent install base.
But...
"We thoroughly tested the technology," Smith said. "We ran extensive tests worldwide. You had well over 250,000 customers complete activation, and we didn't have any complaints about this."
So, 1/5'th of your install base did ok, and the rest did not?
Ok, yes I've taken this out of context, but even a second reading *still* seems to imply that 4 out of 5 dentist^H^H^H^H^H^H customers think product activation sucks.
my experience (Score:5, Interesting)
1. Called 1-800-745-6055. They said to call the download dept. at 1-866-285-6460
2. Called the download department. Their menu didn't sound anything like a download dept. After calling several times and figuring out the number to press to talk to a live human, I was told to call their subscription key dept. at 1-800-441-7234.
3. Called the subscription key department. Had to again figure out how to talk to a human. Finally I did and they forwarded me to an "activation support specialist".
4. Specialist tells me to call the download dept. as specialist only has access to physical CD keys, not the downloaded keys.
5. Called the Download Department. They told me to call the subscription key department. I told them I already did and I'm getting sick of the run around. They put me on hold. Finally said there is no way they can reset my key but they will either ship me a new CD out or let me download a new copy. They tell me it will take 10 days.
I have not received the new CD yet but I did get an email saying it was shipped out. So we will see if this fixes the problem.
Okay, this is _my_ rant. (Score:3, Informative)
You can use the other open source alternatives if you want, but you won't get the immediate response that Symantec provides when large worms and virus outbreaks take place, nor will you get the other customer support provided by Symantec.
Software bugs happen, and it's impossible to test for every possibility (hardware configuration, etc). Just bear with them and let them fix it.
SYMANTEC: PLEASE READ THIS (Score:4, Insightful)
I do not purchase software that requires activation.
Re:Oh for the love of god (Score:5, Insightful)
This message was brought to you by the Manham Canning CanManer Tom St Denis.
Parent
Re:Oh for the love of god (Score:5, Insightful)
It is utter, complete and total stupidity.
The only explanations I can come up with for companues that actually waste their time on this crap is that the decision makers don't even know what these computer things are, they need their collective braincell examining or it's related to insurance premium reduction.
Parent
Re:Oh for the love of god (Score:3, Interesting)
No, it is comfortable, highly-paid executives trying to force oldthink onto a new problem. Product activation is destined to fail simply because it punishes the legitimate user.
I chose W2K a year ago rather than the fancier and "newer" XP for exactly this reason (me not being bright enough/have the time to run Linux), since I add h
Re:Glitch? (Score:3, Funny)
My theory: You're a moron.
Re:Time to move (Score:2)
Easy: a trojan is a piece of rubber that you strip over your ...
piece [tinyurl.com] ... to prevent viruses from spreading.
What this post fails to mention... (Score:2, Insightful)
Time to fill in the facts, it would seem.
Re:Hello, McAfee! (Score:3, Interesting)
This is particularly irksome with products like Powerquest's Partition Magic. I mean really, how often does someone need to change the partitioning on a hard drive? I only find a need about once every few months on any given computer. PQ is outta their minds if they think people are going to buy a second copy of PM when they already have one doing nothing on